{"id":1077,"date":"2018-01-09T15:18:55","date_gmt":"2018-01-09T08:18:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1077"},"modified":"2018-10-20T08:24:48","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T01:24:48","slug":"sales-pages-copy-chief-henry-bingaman","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/sales-pages-copy-chief-henry-bingaman\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #66: A Formula for Winning Sales Pages with Henry Bingaman"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Copy Chief (and copywriter) Henry Bingaman is in the studio for the 66th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>. And he showed up with plenty to share\u2014including his formula for writing great sales copy. Kira and Rob took the opportunity to ask Henry about:<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0his path from fiction writer and flight attendant to copywriter and copy chief<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0not wanting to write for clients and creating his own product (and the lessons he learned)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he landed his first client (and learned to write his first proposal)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the critical copywriting skill he learned as a flight attendant<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he does to connect with people at conferences<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0when you should feel like you\u2019ve \u201cmade it\u201d <em>(hint: you\u2019re probably not there yet)<\/em><br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he teaches the copywriters he works with (and his role as copy chief)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he writes leads that catch attention and shift a customer\u2019s paradigm<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the various copy blocks he includes in his sales pages<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he learned from breaking down Jedd Canty\u2019s sales pages<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what it takes to create a winning control<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the collaboration process he goes through on every sales promotion<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what separates the great copywriters from the good<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0learning from failure (and some of his biggest failures)<\/p>\n<p>Plus we talked about where Henry thinks copywriting is going in the future (it doesn\u2019t look good for some freelancers), how his Cross Fit habit is related to copywriting, and what he is doing to improve his own writing. You won\u2019t want to miss this one.\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8065\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1077-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC066HB.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC066HB.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC066HB.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC066HB.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1077-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC066HB.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC066HB.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.awaionline.com\/copywriting\/p\/\">AWAI Six Figure Copywriter<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.creativewritersdesk.com\/about.html\">Creative Writer\u2019s Desk<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.wealthywebwriter.com\">Wealthy Web Writer<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.rebeccamatter.com\">Rebecca Matter<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.john-carlton.com\">John Carlton<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-marcella-allison\/\">Marcella Allison<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/bottomlineinc.com\/about-us\">Boardroom<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/agorafinancial.com\">Agora<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/parris-lampropoulos-96531630\">Parris Lampropolous<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/davidldeutsch.com\">David Deutch<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.naturalhealthsherpa.com\/about-us\">Mark Stockman<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/metabolicliving.com\">Metabolic Living<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/financial-copywriter-jake-hoffberg\/\">Jake Hoffberg<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copychief.com\">Copy Chief<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jeddcanty\/\">Jedd Canty<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.makepeacetotalpackage.com\">Clayton Makepeace<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.metabolicrenewal.com\/p\/mb\/letter-home?pmadid=38036&amp;source=google&amp;medium=cpc&amp;campaign=1026313414&amp;term=metabolic%20renewal&amp;gclid=EAIaIQobChMI46DSjerJ2AIVWbXACh2kEAUUEAAYASAAEgLuNvD_BwE\">Metabolic Renewal<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.literatureandlatte.com\/scrivener\/overview\">Scrivener<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moneymappress.com\">Money Map Press<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/direct-response-expert-brian-kurtz\/\">Brian Kurtz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1186 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/henry-bingaman-bw-s.png\" alt=\"Copywriter Henry Bingaman\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/henry-bingaman-bw-s.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/henry-bingaman-bw-s-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/henry-bingaman-bw-s-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 66 as we chat with creative director and copy chief Henry Bingaman on working and writing in direct response, how much effort it takes to get a winning control, persuasion architecture, and applying systems thinking to the feedback process and how Crossfit makes him a better writer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Welcome, Henry!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Hey! Nice to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Hey, we\u2019re glad to have you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, so Henry, a great place to start is with your path. I know you have a squiggly path, so where did you start? And where are you today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> My kind of life path is just following the next interesting thing in front of me. <em>(laughs)<\/em> So, when I graduated in 2007 with a degree in fiction writing, which isn\u2019t really a good degree for a job <em>(laughs)<\/em>&#8230; When I graduated, I went online and there was a job opening for flight attendants at United Airline. So I applied and started flying professionally for about a year. I was an international flight attendant, which was a lot of fun but it paid about $20,000 a year, and I was working up in First Class serving people that paid $20,000 for their seat, so I was a little jealous maybe? <em>(laughs) <\/em>But I had this writing ability. I\u2019d been writing since I was early high school, just stories and whatnot. My dad actually owned a supplement company when I was growing up. He\u2019d bought the AWAI six figure program at one point and he just gave it to me, he never really did anything with it, so he gave it to me and said, \u201cHere, here\u2019s a way you might be able to make money.\u201d So that\u2019s how I kind of discovered copywriting, and then I started writing on the side while I was flying and figured out I could make more money writing, staying at home and writing emails for people than I could flying. So I pretty much quit my job and started copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So what were some of those first assignments that you took on, on the side, and how did you get them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Well, it was interesting&#8230; the first thing I did, I actually didn\u2019t want to write for clients at first, I created my own product. The whole big thing back then was create an e-book and sell it on ClickBank or wherever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So I created a little e-book about flying; I think it was called the Insider\u2019s Guide to Stress-free Flying, and tried to sell it. I found out a lot, doing that. Mostly that you should really test if there\u2019s a market for your product before you make a product and sales letter for it&#8230; <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Because there wasn\u2019t a market for it. Well, I did all that work and it never really sold. But that was really the first thing I did and then I started a creative writer\u2019s desk, so I think it\u2019s still online; it was Site Build It, if you guys remember Site Build It back in the day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Long ago, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So I started blogging and stuff on creative writing and then from there I went to&#8230; the way I got clients the first time was live events. So I went to AWAI\u2019s Wealthy Web Writer event and I just started pitching ideas to Rebecca Matter who is one of the higher ups in that company\u2014I think she\u2019s a director.<\/p>\n<p>And she just bit on them. She\u2019s like, sure! Send me a proposal! And I was like oh! Alright! And I just went back to my hotel room and I got out my computer and googled \u201chow to write a proposal\u201d! And I sent her a proposal and she goes, oh! Great! Send me an invoice and let\u2019s get started! I was like oh! So I get my computer out again and I google, \u201cHow to write an invoice\u201d. <em>(laughs)<\/em> I didn\u2019t know anything about any of this. So that was my first client, and at the same time, my dad had some local friends in the health industry, so my first real sales letter was for an energy supplement for one of his friends. So I just used the contact I had and reached out to people and worked for really, really cheap and then used that to leverage more and more clients. Again, most of my big clients, I got at live events. You meet them in person.<\/p>\n<p>I know there\u2019s a lot of people who do email prospecting and all that but I never had the skills, I guess, to ironically sell myself through email, but I could always talk somebody into hiring me when I\u2019m sitting down face to face with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So I want to definitely ask you about how you\u2019re selling yourself at these live events but first, the flight attendant experience. What was one of the biggest lessons you took away from that time as a flight attendant that you use in business today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So I guess one of the cool things that you learn as a flight attendant is how to take really grumpy people and make them happy.<\/p>\n<p><em>(laughter)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Because honestly, people are having a bad day a lot of times on a flight and you have to-You\u2019re locked in a plane with them, in this metal tube in the air for five or six hours sometimes. So if you can\u2019t make them happy, it\u2019s going to be miserable for everybody. So a lot of times, it\u2019s just a free drink, or a conversation or something, but I probably learned how to reframe people\u2019s problems and shift their state of mind to being happier, which I guess in copy, you shift their state of mind to being more receptive to your message. So I don\u2019t know if that answers the question. That\u2019s an interesting thing\u2014there\u2019s not a lot of skills-building in flight attending. But I guess that would be one of them. Interpersonal skills\u2014dealing with people\u2014is something you learn to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re probably an expert at handing out hot towels, I would imagine, as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Oh. I will hot towel you like you won\u2019t believe. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>(laughter)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So, let\u2019s go back to Kira\u2019s other question. Approaching people at conferences, or in meetings, talking them into hiring you&#8230; how does that work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. I just sit down and talk with people about ideas, and eventually, they offer me work. That\u2019s always just been how I kind of operate. I sit down and talk about what you\u2019re doing or what\u2019s interesting, or- talking to people about ideas is easier than selling them. But, if you become that source of ideas and they can see that you just keep bashing them with ideas, they eventually break down I think. I don\u2019t know. I think that really is just networking more than selling at those things. And people, when they want to hire somebody, they reach out to people in their network, first. One of the best relationships I ever made was early, early on, like the second year I was a copywriter. I went to\u2014I think\u2014a John Carleton event in San Diego and I met Marcella Alison, and she has connected me to more people than&#8230; <em>(laughs)<\/em> She\u2019s an a-list copywriter for those people who don\u2019t know her. She has multiple controls with boardrooms, she writes for core divisions; she\u2019s a really talented copywriter. But even more than copywriting, she\u2019s talented at connecting people. So she introduced me really early on to people like Parris Lampropoulos and David Deutsch, who I just got to hang out with early on in my career, which was amazing. She\u2019s the one that\u2014I know this is fast forwarding a lot but\u2014seven years later, introduced me to Mark Stockman, the CEO of Metabolic Living where I\u2019m the creative director now. So, like, she\u2019s just been huge. That one connection at an event, just from talking to people and sharing ideas, and she goes, \u201cOh, you know who YOU should talk to&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Finding that connector, because I\u2019m not really a connector like that but I find them, and then just you know, being present and sharing ideas and people will help you along the way as long as you\u2019re genuine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, so this is getting kind of in the weeds, but were you intentional before these conferences? Did you know who you wanted to chat with, because you knew they were a connector or that, maybe they had a job? Or did it just happen naturally just because that\u2019s how you show up in the world? Just ready to meet people and chat?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>I don\u2019t think I knew of anybody. I don\u2019t have an overarching grand scheme plan for my life, so I go to these events and I just see who there is interesting. And the interesting people to me are usually the people doing interesting things, like running companies or the other successful copywriters. So I just make it a point to talk to those people, partially because it\u2019s good to connect with them and partially because they\u2019re just interesting. Right? Do you want to talk to the person who isn\u2019t doing anything and is sitting in the corner of the room? I mean, there\u2019s always those people at these events, they\u2019re super introverted and they sit in the back of the room and they don\u2019t talk. And sometimes it\u2019s interesting to talk to them because sometimes they actually are very interesting people, but it\u2019s the people doing interesting things that I think I want to hang out with. So I just naturally connect with them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So I want to ask one more question about the idea of connecting with people. When you\u2019re pitching ideas to people like Rebecca, or you know, a potential client, are you talking about ideas for their businesses or are you saying things like hey, Henry, I\u2019d love to show you some ideas of how you might promote your turmeric supplement or those kinds of things? Or is it bigger than that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>It could be anything. The first idea i pitched Rebecca Matter was\u2014this was back in 2008, I think, so\u2014back before Facebook took off, I was like hey, did you know Facebook just launched an advertising platform? It\u2019s like the Google Pay-Per-Click but you can target people based on personality traits and what they\u2019re connected to and it was way less sophisticated back then than it is today, but she was like, oh, that\u2019s an interesting idea! I was like, yeah! I could take the stuff we just learned about PPC ads and we could do landing pages and the same, whole process. You know, if you keep up with what\u2019s going on in marketing and for me, in the health industry, what the different trends are, you can just talk about what\u2019s going on and maybe like, how they could use that. So when I worked in financial, for a long time, that\u2019s when I would pitch new ideas, I was like hey, have you heard about Bitcoin? Before Bitcoin was a big thing. Or have you heard about this new technology? And that here, we could totally build a promo around this. But, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m talking about whatever ideas I\u2019m reading about, because I\u2019m always reading, so it\u2019s just whatever is interesting to me. I guess it\u2019s a theme, right? <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em> There seems to be a theme here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Yeah. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s interesting too because Jake Hoffberg, who writes for Agora Financial, was on the show and he said the same thing, essentially, always pitching new ideas and that\u2019s how he has steady work. It\u2019s just about pitching the ideas to the client and they\u2019re like, yeah! Actually, we do want to do this! And we need a writer, so you\u2019re the writer. So that seems to come up a couple of times in our conversations. I\u2019m just wondering when you felt like you had kind of made it as a copywriter? And maybe this is the moment where you were able to leave your job as a flight attendant and you knew that you\u2019d have steady work so you could make that jump?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> I did not know that I would have steady work when I left my job as a flight attendant. You know, I was 23 years old so I had no expenses, really. I was renting a room from my cousin for like, $300 a month, like I really just didn\u2019t have huge expenses. I had a car payment and rent payment and that was pretty much it. And I moved back closer to my parents so I\u2019d go over to their house for dinner three times a week. And I didn\u2019t make, well, actually the first year, I did pretty well. I think the first year I went out freelancing, I made like thirty or forty thousand dollars, which\u2014when you\u2019re 23 and I\u2019d pretty much doubled my income, right? And then I think the next year, I made like ten. So, there was definitely ups and downs. But I never really, I don\u2019t know. When do you feel like you\u2019ve made it? It\u2019s such an interesting thing because I don\u2019t think you should ever actually feel like you\u2019ve made it. I mean, I\u2019m pretty confident. I don\u2019t have any financial insecurity now, like, right? I could get fired tomorrow and pick up another client. I guess in that sense, I feel like I\u2019ve made it. But there\u2019s always a next level to strive for. And so, I don\u2019t know if that answers the question at all, but I never really felt like \u201cI made it\u201d.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That goes with something that we heard you say at Copy Chief, I think; we heard you say that at one point, you wanted to be an a-list copywriter, but at some point you realized that there is no list. You just kind of get out there and work hard and eventually people start talking about you in the same conversations that they\u2019re talking about some of the a-list copywriters\u2014at least the people that we talk of as \u201ca-list\u201d copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s funny, John Carleton, after that, told me that he invented the term \u201ca-list\u201d\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>And then he went and rattled off the actual list, so&#8230; I stand corrected. There actually is an a-list.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>And John keeps the list.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Apparently.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah. So, tell us about what you\u2019re doing today as creative director and copy chief at\u2014I guess what used to be Natural Health Sherpa and is now Metabolic Living?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Yeah, so we\u2019re in the process of transitioning from Natural Health Sherpa to Metabolic Living. You know, we have multi-million dollar funnels running under the name Natural Health Sherpa, so you can\u2019t just switch those off and switch it on in another company. It\u2019s a long process. Hopefully early 2018, we\u2019ll be able to finally flip the switch for good. But my basic role is you know, I\u2019m chief in four different packages that are being done. Three of them are cross-sales, and one is a whole big funnel re-launch with, I don\u2019t know if he wants me to say his name, but an a-list copywriter who I guess would be on John Carleton\u2019s a-list. So right now, I\u2019m not writing any copy, I\u2019m just editing copy and along with the editing, there\u2019s a lot of teaching. So one of the interesting things is, as a creative director\/copy chief, you\u2019re trying to get the knowledge and ideas that you have into somebody else\u2019s head in a way that they can act on it, which is not an easy task. Like, teaching is not an easy thing. It\u2019s not just sharing information; you have to assess how somebody\u2019s hearing and using that information, right? Because you don\u2019t necessarily hear things the way that they\u2019re told to you, if that makes sense. Somebody could have one intention when they say something and it could be heard in a totally different way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So it\u2019s a very interactive process. There\u2019s a lot of learning from me AND them. So this is a fun time. It\u2019s just pretty intense right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, I want to hear more about this! So you are running a boot camp right now. I believe you said you brought on three new copywriters to your team and you are teaching them and helping them so that they can really jump into these projects and these packages. What are you teaching them first? What is most critical to you in the first stage, the first month?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So all the copywriters I\u2019ve brought on are somewhat experienced. I think they\u2019ve been working for two to five years in some cases, so it\u2019s not like I brought on somebody that I had to teach, here\u2019s what copywriting is! But there are different architectures and structures in promotions that make them work. So I\u2019m kind of going through that. So one of the big lessons I\u2019m trying to teach is, \u201ccontext is everything\u201d. People take cues from the type of content that they\u2019re consuming. So one of the problems I see, especially when we\u2019re doing video copy, is people want to be too entertaining. So they\u2019ll write a big dramatic, entertaining lead to their video sales letter, but you know, when you\u2019re consuming entertaining content, what do you do? You sit back and just engage and relax, which is not a buying frame of mind. So you can use entertainment elements in your copy, but how do you create the context that they\u2019re in a discovery-type frame of mind? Or a shopping type frame of mind? How do you get them from where they are to buying your product? And it\u2019s not by giving them queues that say they\u2019re being entertained. Does that make sense? Stuff like that that I\u2019m trying to communicate. And then, giving actual examples and walking them through it and editing their copy WITH them, so one of the things we do is we work on a shared Google doc. So we have a call when we\u2019re editing copy and you can see the writing happening in real time, whether it\u2019s they\u2019re writing it in real time so I can see what they\u2019re doing or me rewriting some of their copy with them so they can see what I\u2019m doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Can you share this\u2014I\u2019m not sure if you can share this\u2014but have you noticed any trends as far as mistakes that maybe all three of them are making or you\u2019ve seen a bunch of copywriters make, other than the entertaining piece\u2014that we\u2019re trying to entertain and maybe we\u2019re not within the context?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Basically, there\u2019s a bunch of mandatory copy blocks that you have to put in a certain order to get it to work. And the first one is what I call the paradigm shift. So the paradigm shift is, you\u2019re taking a belief that someone has, and reframing it. So you\u2019re literally changing the paradigm. One of the things that is hard for people to get is to do that dramatically enough without being over the top. Right? Like, how do you actually shift\u2014help someone shift their perception? So that\u2019s, I think, the biggest struggle that people have. Right? And that\u2019s the lead of the promotion. It\u2019s always the most important piece of copy, other than the close, maybe the headline. But if you don\u2019t get them hooked right away, if you don\u2019t create that drama, but along with drama, the interest in discovery. You\u2019ve got to put them in the \u201coh, I\u2019ve got to learn about this\u201d mode. And I think that\u2019s the hardest thing for people to get, so that\u2019s what we spend a lot of time working on and rewriting and editing.<\/p>\n<p>Rob: So I\u2019m putting you on the spot a little bit, but can we talk about an example of that paradigm shift and what makes a good paradigm shift, and what maybe is over the top or not sufficient?<\/p>\n<p>Henry: One of the\u2014this isn\u2019t even out yet so I don\u2019t know if I should talk about it\u2014but it\u2019s the top of mine, because one of our copywriters was working on a cross-sell for our Metabolic Mastery club. You sell it like you sell a newsletter, so basically, you have a free work board that you give them, and then free report is a giveaway that they get when they join the club. So typical structure there. But this particular free report is about persistent organic pollutants, which are the toxins in like, DDT and the food chemicals and all that stuff. And I actually, so it\u2019s interesting that these things, your body protects itself first by shuttling these pops into your fat cells, and then once they\u2019re in your fat cells, they basically lock down the cell because your body doesn\u2019t want to release that toxin back into it so it makes it incredibly hard to lose weight when you have too many pops in your body. And then when pops start losing weight, this is a funny stat\u2014a 14% drop in body weight increases the amount of pops in your blood by 51%.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Whoa.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> And these things jack your brain, your\u2014your thyroid, like, they\u2019re really bad news. And they\u2019re everywhere. So, we have a special report on how to get rid of them. So the initial paradigm shift that she wrote was \u201cThe Reason You\u2019re Getting Fat is Not Because You\u2019re Eating Too Many Calories\u201d. And that\u2019s just not\u2014it doesn\u2019t really do it for you, right? Like, it\u2019s&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>You\u2019ve heard that before, okay it\u2019s something, it\u2019s just\u2014there\u2019s nothing to sink your teeth into. So what we ended up doing is we rewrote it, and I really like this idea. Actually, why don\u2019t I just pull up, I\u2019ll read you the new lead. Okay, uh\u2014\u201cFor just a moment, imagine a world where the air you breath and the water you drink is loaded with invisible calories. In this world, every breath and every sip of water inflates fat cells. Even the food is laced with hundreds of extra invisible calories. Would it surprise you to learn that almost seven in ten people in this world struggle to lose weight and keep it off? Of course not! Well that imaginary world and the real world we\u2019re living in are disturbingly similar. Only in the real world, they are invisible calories\u2014they\u2019re much worse.\u201d So that kind of lead is, you know, it\u2019s creating a scenario of something that they can think about, right? \u201cOh my God, I\u2019m eating these invisible calories! That\u2019s the reason!\u201d It\u2019s not selling what isn\u2019t; it\u2019s giving them something that they can conceptualize.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, and then you need to continue reading on to understand the concept like any good lead.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Right. \u201cSo what are these invisible calories?\u201d Well actually they\u2019re called \u2018obesigens\u2019, and one of the worse obesigens is called \u2018POPS\u2019. So it\u2019s that kind of stuff that you just walk them through it in that structure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Okay, that\u2019s really cool. So you mentioned, you know, the different copy blocks and, hopefully, you know I\u2019m not asking to give away something that you consider proprietary, but when you shared some of these things at Copy Chief, you know there were like ten or twelve, you know with escalations involved. Would you mind sharing some of the other copy blocks that are really critical for a great sales page? We don\u2019t necessarily need to step through, you know, everything, but I found a few of these very interesting, and escalation seems to be a really big thing with a lot of the things you write.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Yeah, escalations are just building up the problem and solution. Alright, so we\u2019ll \u00a0just run through them. The paradigm shift is that first thing, right? That, what\u2019s changing? How is the world different than what they thought it was? Then there\u2019s the guru backstory, which is just your, you know, your doctor, your expert\u2019s hero story essentially. Then there\u2019s something I call the shocking discovery, which is\u2014it\u2019s different then the paradigm shift, it\u2019s kind of the backstory to the paradigm shift. It\u2019s a shocking discovery or rediscovery; it\u2019s your big proof element framed in a dramatic and compelling way, essentially.<\/p>\n<p>And then, there\u2019s a chunk that I don\u2019t think I talked about a lot, but it\u2019s \u201cforgiveness of sins\u201d. So, explain to them why it\u2019s not their fault, why their problem that they have or the solution that you have, whatever the problem is, is not their fault. There\u2019s something else at work, right? You\u2019re establishing an enemy, you\u2019re setting up the context of why your previous solutions didn\u2019t work, which also then sets up your product as the kind of hero on the white horse that can ride in. I think that one\u2019s important, and I think a lot of people, they sprinkle it in here and there but they don\u2019t actually sit down and put a concentrated block in explaining it. I think \u201cmission statement\u2019s\u201d another one that a lot of people don\u2019t spend a lot of time on. Give people a reason why you created a product.<\/p>\n<p>Between forgiveness of sins and the mission statement are your escalations, which are building up parts of the problem and parts of the solution. The thing that\u2019s easy to misunderstand about escalations is that they don\u2019t always go in one direction, right? It\u2019s not the problem getting worse, and worse, and worse, and worse, right? You don\u2019t want a story, that the emotional movement is all in one direction. Because you don\u2019t want to sink them too far down into a pit that they feel like they can\u2019t get out of. And you don\u2019t always want to build it up\u2014the solution\u2014so much, that they think it\u2019s all just hype and this is all just, you know, marketing BS and whatnot. So, changing escalations from problem solution, takeaway, that kind of stuff&#8230;creating emotional movement in different direction so it\u2019s not one straight line.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> If there are any other ones that you want to share that are just key ones that people mess up, it\u2019d be great to know. And then, you know, what is the best place? Where can we go to learn about all of these different elements because not everyone can jump into your boot camp and has access to what you\u2019re teaching.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> I developed this over the course of a number of years. I\u2014alright, I\u2019ll tell a little backstory to this. I was walking with a copywriter named Jedd Canty, who\u2019s, in my opinion, the best financial copywriter in the world today. You know, Clayton Makepeace left Weiss to go work with Jedd Canty; that\u2019s how good Jedd is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> And I was writing these promos, and they, you know, sometimes would work and sometimes they\u2019d bomb. And then, Jed meanwhile was writing these promos that no matter what, were just friggin\u2019 home runs. So what I originally did was just deconstructed all of his promos and I broke them down into, okay\u2014what is this doing? Okay, what is this section doing? Alright, how\u2019s it moving through? And I created this sheet based on, basically, his. And then when I started doing more health, I went into the health world and I looked at all the biggest promos that were out there. And just modified.<\/p>\n<p>So I mean, I built this on my own over the course of years. So, really what I say is, if you want to learn this stuff, go find the best promos today and break them down yourself. And really think about and analyze each part, and what is this section doing? And that\u2019s how I created it; I think that\u2019s how most people can create. I think when people just hand-copy promos, they\u2019re kind of getting the structure but they might not be seeing it all.<\/p>\n<p>So I had originally I had seven stories; there\u2019s now like sixteen of something, but I broke down what was in common between these things, right? So there\u2019s a lot of promos out there you\u2019ll find have the same type of story in the same place. So by breaking it down and analyzing it and giving it a name, like \u201cthe paradigm shift,\u201d the \u201cbackstory\u201d, the \u201cshocking discovery\u201d, \u201cforgiveness of sins\u201d, the \u201cescalations\u201d, the \u201csurprise amplifications\u201d; give it a name and see where it fits in other promos. So, you can\u2019t just do it with one, you have to do it with multiple, over the course of probably a long time. But you can see what\u2019s actually working, and actually discover the structure by analyzing what other people are doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, I really like how you\u2019re sharing this, and the focus on intentional learning, and intentional practice. And, that sort of leads me to the next question. You\u2019re sort of walking through it already, but, how much effort goes into creating a winning control, you know? How many re-writes? How much editing? How much time? How much research?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Well, the research is enormous, right? We actually have, I think, at Metabolic Living, we have ten full-time\u2014or not full-time, but contract researchers that are actually doctors, and so we get enormous amounts of research. I think Aaron, one of the writers in this copy camp that we\u2019re doing, he printed everything out and he had a binder with like two hundred pages of just the research that I sent him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So, I mean, the research is huge. So I have a very systematic process for going through these things. The first thing you do is you get all your research\u2014I have a research form that we fill out\u2014so basically you do a research point, the copy that supports it, the citation and how it links back into the main idea, or the main benefit of your product or promo, and then you do 50 to 100 to 200 of those before you start writing, and then instead of writing, you organize those research points into an outline. So you take the stories, the structure that you\u2019re using for that particular promo, and you\u2019ll just line up the research to where it\u2019s going to go. So then you have a whole outline and then the writing part is the first draft you do. We call it, I don\u2019t know if we can swear on this, but we call it a \u201ccrappy\u201d first draft-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Which is actually a term Marcella\u2014it\u2019s great because Marcella told me this all her first drafts, she just sends them to the client and says, this is a crappy first draft. It gets you off the hook for having to write perfect copy. But it gets you something that you can work with then. So once you have the crappy first draft done, we send that and we go through, and usually as the copy chief I\u2019ll do an edit, or comment boxes here, like, this needs some work or we\u2019re missing the logic on this, we\u2019re missing the emotion on this, whatever it is. And I kind of have a checklist for that. Is there a logical component, is there an emotional component, does it support the theme, is it moving in an interesting direction, is it moving towards a sale, and what are the stakes?<\/p>\n<p>So take each block of copy and kind of run it through that filter and you\u2019ll find out a lot of missing pieces. And then we do a collaborative edit, once we have a draft that we\u2019re both fairly happy with. We get on Skype and open up a Google doc with the copy and you just read it. So, typically, the person that\u2019s doing the collaborative edit there is the one that reads it instead of the writer, because you\u2019re going to\u2014it\u2019s funny, a lot of times, when I\u2019m reading my own copy, I\u2019ll read over the same typo. I\u2019ll read it the way I thought I meant to say it, or thought I said it, but I\u2019ll read over a typo over and over again, so having someone else read your copy back to you, you can hear how it\u2019s coming off in another voice, and then we just go block by block and edit each one. So that whole process takes a while.<\/p>\n<p>One of the big promos I did recently was called Metabolic Renewal. It\u2019s actually launched on Facebook and it\u2019s doing great now, so I\u2019m excited for this holiday season to see what those sales do. But I hired Marcella Allison as the collaborative writer on that and I think we spent something like, 20 hours on Skype over the course of a week or two, just reading and reading and editing and reading and editing. So it\u2019s an enormous amount of work to get these things done. But that\u2019s\u2014that\u2019s immediate buy funnel. Some of the backend sales, or cross-sales, or stuff like that, it can take, you know, I think it was only like four hours with Amanda, who wrote that MMC copy, the Metabolic Mastery Club copy. So it depends on the importance of the project, and kind of the scope\u2014what are you expecting it to do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, I want to jump back into the research portion. You mentioned 200 pages and you kind of you know, outlined what you do, just, piecing together the outline of the page with the chunks of research, but like, what type of tools are you- are you just doing this in Google docs or do you have a special tool you\u2019re using to lay out all of this information so it\u2019s organized?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Yeah, I wish I had something cool but it\u2019s Word docs, Google docs, normal word processor. I haven\u2019t found a really cool tool yet. I\u2019ve tried a bunch of things. I used Scrivener for a while, which is actually a really cool writing thing, but it\u2019s really hard to collaborate on it. The files just get too big and you can\u2019t share them very well. So yeah, Word docs and Google docs is typically how we do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, the back and forth collaboration is really interesting to me. You know, working with Marcella\u2014that whole process feels like, for a lot of maybe younger copywriters, or more inexperienced copywriters, a little intimidating, right? Because you\u2019re asking somebody to give you some very poignant and very helpful feedback and that could be painful at times you know, as they tear apart copy or say hey, this isn\u2019t working, and you know, having to come up with new ideas on the spot, that could be difficult.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s the wrong way to look at it, though. Like, it\u2019s funny, all the big copywriters I know have zero shame in asking for help. Like, David Deutsch, he has no ego. You can\u2019t have an ego with these things. So the confidence you have to have is, when talking to someone else, you\u2019re going to be able to come up with an idea. Like, there\u2019s no pressure to come up with a perfect idea. We sat\u2014I sat on Skype with Amanda the other day, trying to like, well, I know this doesn\u2019t look right, this part\u2019s not right, what do you think we should put there? Well, I don\u2019t know, what do you think we should put there? You can say I don\u2019t know! It\u2019s alright to say I don\u2019t know. And then you can go back to other examples. The great thing about working with Marcella is she\u2019s worked with Paris and David and Clayton and Mike Ward and all these board room controls. She\u2019s seen every different situation, so she just goes to her swipe file and goes, Well, here\u2019s how someone else did it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Here\u2019s how Paris would handle this situation, here\u2019s how David would handle this situation. I\u2019ve only been doing this ten years, nine years I guess, so I\u2019ve seen a lot, but I haven\u2019t seen everything, and I think just having the humility to say I don\u2019t know, and asking for help, and if you don\u2019t know\u2014if neither of you have an idea, just put it in a placeholder and say, I\u2019m going to ask somebody else for help. Like, you don\u2019t have to do it all yourself. You can\u2019t know everything and you have to admit that yourself before you can do anything good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I like that advice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And I wonder, especially a lot of newer copywriters listen to this podcast, so if they\u2019re listening and they\u2019re like, that\u2019s great! I\u2019d love to have a copy chief, I\u2019d love to have a collaborator, but I don\u2019t even have a person to go to yet&#8230; I mean, of course there are different groups they could join, programs they could join, but at that point, do they just need to kind of figure it out on their own for a while and kind of do what you did and basically like, hack different pages and you know, find the trends before they can find the copy chief? Like, what do we do before we have a copy chief?<\/p>\n<p>Henry: If you\u2019re getting clients at all, then your client is your copy chief, right? I think there\u2019s something that I see a lot of copywriters do way too early in their career, is they write copy and they threaten the clients and have to run it word by word. Your client typically knows more than you. Because if he doesn\u2019t, you don\u2019t know enough.<\/p>\n<p>You can always find a mentor, even if it\u2019s just a book or something. Like, just know that you don\u2019t know, and don\u2019t be afraid to ask and don\u2019t be afraid to take feedback from everybody. Right? You can learn something from everybody. Everyone has some experience that can be valuable to you. And then, the more experience you get, the more experienced people you\u2019ll be working with. You\u2019ll move onto bigger clients who have more experience. So I think it\u2019s just a gradual stepping stone thing where, take whatever resources you have, even if it\u2019s just somebody\u2019s opinion. Take it with a grain of salt, but always just listen to it. I think you can learn a lot from people. I think if you\u2019re open, you can learn a lot from people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s great advice. So I want to pivot, and you mentioned a bunch of a-list copywriters and I know you\u2019re well-connected and you have been open to other copywriters along the way; what would you say separates the great ones? And again, not necessarily a-list, but just great copywriters who you look up to and admire, from the ones that are maybe good, but they just haven\u2019t reached that level. Have you noticed anything that those great copywriters share in common?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s ability to tolerate pain. <em>(laughs) <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So it\u2019s really the ability to just grind. To put in the work. If you\u2019re curious, and put in work, you\u2019re going to be a good copywriter eventually. That\u2019s just the way it goes. It\u2019s so easy to out-work people in this industry that it\u2019s disturbing. Like, I was a terrible copywriter very early, and I was very young in doing this, but I out-worked everybody and I just put in hours and I sent revision and revision and revision and I didn\u2019t care if I got paid because I wanted to be good. You know, I\u2019d have a thousand dollar contract, and I\u2019d spend most of the month trying to get it perfect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>And every time the client said something like, I just don\u2019t know about this, I\u2019d redo it. I wasn\u2019t asking for more money to do it, I was just trying to get better. So I think it\u2019s that drive. It\u2019s the curiosity and the willingness to put in the work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So one of the things from a few people who listen to the podcast is we\u2019re always talking about, you know, people\u2019s successes and track records and how good they\u2019ve become; I\u2019m curious, as you look back on your career, Henry, are there some failures that sort of stick out that you\u2019re maybe, you know, you look back and you think oh my gosh, I wish I hadn\u2019t had that, or you know, I wish I\u2019d been smart enough to avoid that? A failure that you can share?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>I\u2019ve had a lot of failures. But I don\u2019t regret any of them, if that makes sense. I think I learned something from every one of them. I think being able to learn from your failure is also a required skill in&#8230; basically, the world. <em>(laughs)<\/em> You want to do anything good in life, you\u2019re going to fail initially. So I mean, I said earlier, the first year I did fairly well as a freelancer and the second year, I barely did anything. I struggled to get clients. I think I got too cocky way too early.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>I\u2019m an over-confident person by nature, so I\u2019m always having to check my ego. Which is good to know, right? It\u2019s actually good\u2014it\u2019s a strength to have that confidence, but you should know that you\u2019re not always right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So I got overconfident, too early, and I sold myself as more than I was early on, I think, to a couple of clients, and then when I couldn\u2019t basically follow up with it, nobody would hire me for a while. <em>(laughs) <\/em>So I was doing these $200 articles and these tiny little projects, just scraping by. We\u2019d run and get my credit cards and it was just terrible times there, in the beginning. It\u2019s another thing you have to grit through; everybody\u2019s going to have that struggle to one degree or another early on in their career. And just know that the failures are lessons, they\u2019re not actually failures. You know, the first sales letter I did, you know, I think it got zero sales.<em> (laughs)<\/em> Like literally, not a single person bought.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> You know, and that\u2019s embarrassing because I sold that letter for $1500. <em>(laughs) <\/em>They never made that back! So I did a ton of extra work for him like, did all his website copy and just, makeup copy basically for how bad it was. I worked for Money Map Press; I was one of the senior copywriters for about five years, and the first promo I did there was the\u2014it was about super-dividends and it bombed! Horribly. I wasn\u2019t sure they were going to keep me on after that. <em>(laughs)<\/em> But then, the next one did like four million dollars. So you just have to accept that you\u2019re not going to be perfect and these failures are going to happen. And you know, the struggle is the way you get good at things, and failure is part of that. I think it\u2019s something that people have to learn to embrace, not just accept. You have embrace your failures and go back and figure out why, and use it as a lesson.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And how often today do you hit a home run versus, you know, base hits or, you know, duds?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>I did one promo earlier this year that really didn\u2019t work that well. It beat the control but not by enough to make it worth running. And then the next one I did after that was the biggest promo launch in company history, so&#8230;.I don\u2019t know. I hit mostly triples, I\u2019d say. But every once in a while you strike out. If you\u2019re trying interesting ideas you\u2019re going to strike out eventually. Some, some ideas just aren\u2019t going to connect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I think that\u2019s really the important thing is keep trying new things, you know, don\u2019t necessarily you know do the same thing over and over, and keep trying and keep learning, and you know eventually the home runs do come. But, yeah, I mean I\u2019ve written pages when I\u2019m surprised when they don\u2019t perform very well; I think, \u201cyou know I thought I did everything right\u201d, but for whatever reason it didn\u2019t work, and those are sometimes are a little bit hard to walk away from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Sure. It\u2019s one of the mistakes that I always made at Money Map; when I did a promo that didn\u2019t quite work the way we thought it would, we\u2019d just spend forever trying to tweak it and make it work. If there was a sign of life, I\u2019d just\u2014instead of moving on to another one, we\u2019d tweak it. And you know, I think sophisticated clients expect strike-outs every once in a while. They don\u2019t bank on everything working. So if, if you\u2019re not striking-out, you\u2019re not trying and the clients know that. So, I think, if you\u2019re working with good clients, the misses become irrelevant, because you just get back at the plate, take another swing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Alright, I\u2019m going to shift gears a bit, but I\u2019d love to hear from you just about the future of copywriter, and I know that\u2019s a really big question, but you know, where do you see copywriting going as far as what\u2019s coming up over the next few years?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> It\u2019s an interesting question. I think the biggest shift we\u2019re going to see in copywriting is away from freelancing. There\u2019s always going to be freelancers, they\u2019re always going to be freelance work, but you know, when you\u2019re working on the teams like I am, it\u2019s\u2014as a freelancer, you\u2019re going to have a hard time beating a team of talented copywriters in the market. And you know, as part of these companies\u2014even if it\u2019s just on a long-term retainer, which I know is how a lot of Agora contractors work&#8230;they\u2019re not employees but they only have one client with some side-work, maybe&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> But being a part of that team is just going to make it increasingly hard. You know, copy\u2019s getting so good these days; if you look at some of the stuff the Agora divisions are putting out, some of the stuff in the health world\u2014it\u2019s just sharp copywriters doing really good work, and they\u2019re working as a team. I think it\u2019s going to be really hard to go against the team, so I think more and more people are going to end up joining up long term with basically one client, and working in that collaborative environment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And this is something that Brian Kurtz has been talking a lot about over the last year or two, you know that more and more companies need to find copywriters that learn their businesses as well as the business owners, in order to create, you know, copy that really resonates with their clients.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Yeah, I think it\u2019s also partially because you know, direct response copywriting\u2014these crazy-long videos and letters\u2014used to be this back-room, like nobody talked about it, it wasn\u2019t part of the mainstream. Like, my wife has a degree in advertising from Newhouse\u2014Syracuse Newhouse, one of the best communications schools in the country\u2014and she never even heard of direct response advertising. Like it was just this shady thing, but now the internet\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> &#8230;Made direct response like measurable, and mainstream. And so, that\u2019s why I think you could be a freelancer before, because it was not something that was that visible. Now it\u2019s mainstream and even the bigger companies are starting to do it, and it\u2019s widely accepted, and that\u2019s making it much more competitive. There\u2019s more copywriters now than ever. There\u2019s also more copy needed. Like, it\u2019s easier now to get started because much smaller clients are starting to use real direct-response copy. So there\u2019s that springboard for freelancers, but you know, to be the top tier now, I think it\u2019s all shifting to teams. I think Kurtz, Brian Kurtz, is right about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So, I actually\u2014I want to know about Cross Fit. Henry, I know you\u2019re not just writing about health, but you\u2019re actively, you know, pursuing a relatively healthy lifestyle; at least you try, you experiment. How does Cross Fit fit into your life, and does it make you a better copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Well I mean, physical fitness is just important for everything. Like you can\u2019t be a good copywriter if your brain\u2019s working at half speed, and you know, you can\u2019t get outta your chair. It\u2019s just&#8212;I don\u2019t know that it\u2019s Cross Fit itself, is directly related, but like, I guess you could say it\u2019s related in that, it\u2019s the same thing: you have to be able to endure the pain. You have to be able to get in there and do the work, and that\u2019s how the successes come. So, I don\u2019t know. I think a lot of copywriters I know that are really successful are also workout junkies. I think it\u2019s just personality type more than the actual correlation there, but yeah. I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s been fun. I\u2019m also a Cross Fit coach, so, it helps to learn to teach. Because what we do in copy is basically, half of it\u2019s teaching.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So, learning how different people&#8230;.you know, you have to give\u2014you have to run through five different coaching cues before somebody will actually do the \u201cpower clean\u201d right. The \u201csnatch\u201d is an incredibly complicated movement. And people don\u2019t\u2014you could say one thing, and somebody will get it instantly, you know, like \u201creally pop your hips\u201d, and somebody will get it instantly, and then the next person, they won\u2019t understand \u201cpop they\u2019re hips\u201d but if you say, \u201creally squeeze your butt\u201d, which is the same thing&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:.<\/strong>..and they\u2019ll get it. Right? So you just have to learn that there\u2019s different ways to talk to people. And I think that, you can translate that skill into a lot of copy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Alright, so Henry, I want to know what\u2019s coming up for you, you know, you said you follow what\u2019s interesting, and you\u2019re building a team. A lot of time and energy is going into that. So, what are you focused on in the new year? What do you want to accomplish?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So I mean, what\u2019s interesting to me right now, is learning how to teach better. It\u2019s working with this group; it\u2019s one of those things, I know, you can tell I say \u201cum\u201d a lot, I stutter when I\u2019m talking, I don\u2019t have the best teaching style yet. I\u2019m learning more about teaching and I think that\u2019s going to be a key part building out this team, and making it efficient and effective. And really, \u2018because i want people to be successful. So I want to learn how I can help people to be more successful. So I guess that\u2019s kind of my\u2014because that\u2019ll help me be more successful. That\u2019s kind of my focus for the next year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah and one final question, just\u2014how do you learn how to teach better? I mean is it purely like finding the right books, or through mentorship? How are you improving that part of your business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So I\u2019m talking to people that have actually done this. I\u2019ve talked a little bit to Parris Lampropoulos who\u2019s been doing these kinds of things for years. And from him you learn like, one of things he does\u2014and I don\u2019t think he\u2019ll mind me giving this away\u2014is space repetition. So, he teaches one lesson, and then he re-teaches it again the next time they talk, just in a brief form, because that\u2019s how people learn, not\u2014you can\u2019t just say it once and expect them to hear it, you have to say it again and reinforce these concepts which really drives them home and, you know&#8230;.it\u2019s just such an interesting thing: you need to take a thought in your head, get that thought into somebody else\u2019s head in the same way that it results in action, right? It\u2019s hard enough to turn the things I know into usable action, good copy&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So how do you get that same concept into somebody else who has a whole different life perspective and experience, and get the same result? It\u2019s kind of a fun puzzle to try and solve, and I\u2019m enjoying doing it. It\u2019s also very challenging.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019ll bet. And I suppose if anybody wants to listen, or learn from what you\u2019ve shared today they should probably listen to this podcast five or six times&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> &#8230;at different intervals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>Yeah, if you can tolerate it, sure!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> This has been fantastic. You know, especially stepping through, you know, the boxes of the copy blocks that you put, you know, on your sales pages, I think it\u2019s very different from a lot of the things in the past on the podcast, and it could be really helpful fro someone who really struggles to piece together a sales page, so I really appreciate you sharing that and you know, some of the logic behind the different blocks and why you do them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah; Henry, can you just create a course based off this boot camp that you\u2019re running through, so we can all experience your teachings?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry: <\/strong>So I\u2019m recording all of it&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> &#8230;because I don\u2019t have to go through it every time, but it\u2019s only going to be for people that actually come work for Metabolic Living.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Crap!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> So&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, alright.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, listen\u2014listen to what we said at the first of the podcasts about approaching you at conferences so that you can get access to this stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right! Right. Alright, thank you Henry! We appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey, thanks a lot Henry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Henry:<\/strong> Alright guys, it\u2019s been fun.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Copy Chief (and copywriter) Henry Bingaman is in the studio for the 66th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast. And he showed up with plenty to share\u2014including his formula for writing [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[89,3],"class_list":["post-1077","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-henry-bingaman","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #66: A Formula for Winning Sales Pages with Henry Bingaman - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copy chief and copywriter Henry Bingaman on what it takes to write a winning control, his formula for successful sales promotions, learning from failure, what separates great copywriters from the good, connecting with clients at conferences and when you should feel like you&#039;ve &quot;made it&quot;. 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