{"id":1192,"date":"2018-01-11T15:29:28","date_gmt":"2018-01-11T08:29:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1192"},"modified":"2018-10-20T08:25:24","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T01:25:24","slug":"copywriter-emma-siemasko-setting-boundaries","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-emma-siemasko-setting-boundaries\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #67: Setting Boundaries with Emma Siemasko"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>For the 67th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, Kira and Rob sit down with copywriter and content specialist, Emma Siemasko to talk about her business, working with clients, and the advice she would give to someone just starting out as a copywriter. During our conversation we covered:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how a trip to South Korea launched her freelance writing career<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0Emma\u2019s and Rob\u2019s favorite poets\u2014yeah, this one is a little different<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what she learned working at a bad content marketing agency<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the things she learned from starting her own business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what she did in those first few moments as a freelancer<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how she landed her first few clients after going out on her own<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0her advice to copywriters who are just starting out<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the mistakes she made in her first year that cost her a lot of time and energy<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the boundaries she has set up to keep her client relationships working well<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how her clients have reacted to the boundaries she set<\/p>\n<p>This isn\u2019t the first time we\u2019ve talked with Emma about boundaries\u2014she\u2019s really got this down. We also talked about how she packages case studies and sells them to her clients and the opportunities she sees in the future for copywriters. To hear this one, just click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5356\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1192-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC067ES.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC067ES.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC067ES.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC067ES.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1192-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC067ES.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC067ES.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poetryfoundation.org\/poets\/mary-oliver?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Mary Oliver<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poetryfoundation.org\/poets\/sharon-olds?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Sharron Olds<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/miragonz\">Mira Gonzalas<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poetryfoundation.org\/poets\/billy-collins?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Billy Collins<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poemhunter.com\/best-poems\/billy-collins\/another-reason-why-i-don-t-keep-a-gun-in-the-hou\/\"><em>Another Reason I Don\u2019t Keep a G<\/em><\/a><em>un in the House<br \/>\n<\/em><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.poemhunter.com\/poem\/on-turning-ten\/\">On Turning Ten<\/a><br \/>\n<\/em><a href=\"http:\/\/okcupid.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">OKCupid<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/frog2prince.net\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Frog2Prince.net<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/grasshopper.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Grasshopper<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-maggie-patterson\/\">Maggie Patterson<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/direct-response-copywriter-roy-furr\/\">Roy Furr<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/storiesbyemma.co\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Stories by Emma<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/medium.com\/this-happened-to-me\/the-worst-company-i-ever-worked-for-a866dd726c81\"><em>The Worst Company I Ever Worked For<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1195 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/copywriter-emma-siemasko.png\" alt=\"copywriter emma siemasko\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/copywriter-emma-siemasko.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/copywriter-emma-siemasko-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/copywriter-emma-siemasko-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>What if you could hang out with seriously copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join us episode 67 as we chat with freelance copywriter and content creator Emma Siemasko about her decision to go out on her own, working with clients and setting clear boundaries, writing in the tech space and what she\u2019ll be doing differently in the new year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Welcome, Emma!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Hey Emma!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Hi Rob and Kira, thanks for having me!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We are thrilled to have you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs) <\/em>All right, Emma, a great place to start is, of course, with your story. So, how did you end up as a content writer and then business owner?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Sure! So I have been writing in some capacity basically since I could read, so when I was in first grade, I was writing. Like, I wrote a story about how my grandmother died, which I got a lot of attention on because most six year olds weren\u2019t writing about that&#8230; so I was doing some pretty heavy stuff as a little kid&#8230; but I went on to study creative writing in college where I specialized in poetry, and after I graduated I actually went and taught English in South Korea for one year. And the funny thing about that was, I was hired to teach, which I did a lot of, but the school where I worked also published their own English language textbooks and I quickly began doing most of the writing and virtually all of the editing for the textbooks because my boss recognized like, whoa, she\u2019s like the best writer that we have, not to be totally braggy, but, so I actually kind of got my first taste of professional writing in South Korea, funnily enough.<\/p>\n<p>And when I came back, I worked for a content marketing agency for a little while. I started my own online dating consultancy and then I worked for about three years at a software as a service company and that\u2019s how I got introduced to the tech space. And the company was acquired and I was like, I don\u2019t really want to work for anybody else\u2014I\u2019d been hiring a lot of freelancers when I worked in-house, so I was like, I know that I can do this, so I made the decision to leave and that was you know, two and a half years ago, and so, here I am!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Okay. We haven\u2019t talked about poetry with anybody on the podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And so&#8230; I\u2019m going to jump on this and say, what\u2019s your favorite poem or who\u2019s your favorite poet and what kind of poetry did you write?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> I feel, when I look back, what I wrote was like, super angsty, college-girl kind of stuff, not to pigeon hole myself too much, but like, I would be like, writing about like, I don\u2019t know\u2014sex on the beach or something ridiculous or like bragging about getting drunk and high in college&#8230; I shouldn\u2019t diminish my work THAT much, but I feel like\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, now I want to read your work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, this is a little crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I also wrote a lot about\u2014my poetry focused a lot on relationship when I was in college. I was like, trying to figure out how to have romantic relationships but I was also like super reflective on my relationships with my family and my friends so there was a lot of poetry about that as well. And a lot of my poetry was connected to place, actually, so I\u2019m from New England, and a lot of the poems were like very, very rooted in New England.<\/p>\n<p>And in terms of poets that I love, I absolutely adore Mary Oliver, who\u2019s like the super popular poet. She focuses really on like landscape and the natural world but also, like, has very heart-wrenching and poignant moments of Oh my gosh, this is what it means to be alive. I also love Sharon Old, she has like really great poems about relationships. Those are like, two of my big favorites. There\u2019s a relatively young poet named Mira Gonzales who actually kind of writes about those collegiate topics; I don\u2019t want to diminish them, but like, getting drunk and high but she does it much better than I did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs) <\/em>Those are important topics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I don\u2019t want to call it collegiate because like, people do that&#8230; but I was doing it in college. Her name is Mira Gonzalez and she\u2019s really, really good and she also has an amazing Twitter presence so I think she\u2019s done a really good job of marrying her work with social media and the online space. She\u2019s really good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to have to look them up. My favorite poet is Billy Collins and he writes about a lot of like, everyday stuff like the dog barking next door, or you know, the gift a child gives their mother. Like, I especially love \u201cAnother Reason I Don\u2019t Keep a Gun in the House\u201d\u2014which is like, if you haven\u2019t read the poem or heard somebody read it. Look it up. It is so good.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, it\u2019s every day stuff. The thing I like about poetry\u2014and I think it\u2019s really applicable to what we do as copywriters\u2014is that, poets have to see the world in a way that\u2019s maybe not just like, a literal description, right? They\u2019re looking for different ways to talk about things that are a little bit interesting and just sort of catch your ear in an interesting way. I think we could learn a lot from poetry, you know, even with the copy that we\u2019re writing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yes, especially Billy Collins, I think, because his whole thing\u2014he was the Poet Laureate and he was all about making poetry accessible.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>So my favorite poem by him is \u201cOn Turning Ten\u201d, which is just like, basically, a heartbreaking poem about like, what it means to grow up. Every time I read that poem I cry. I mean, he\u2019s really good. But that is written in very plain language. He\u2019s not writing poems that are like, super, super highbrow and literary, so to speak.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yep. No, I think his work is brilliant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> All right, so I want to ask about your online dating consultancy. What? <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Tell me more about this!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So, actually, this kind of segues into the question of what I learned when I was working at a content marketing agency. And actually, I worked at a really, really horrible content marketing agency. So I think it was 2011 and it was like, still kind of the recession. I had no professional experience and I got hired by this place\u2014we can do more in-depth if you want\u2014but it was so horrible that in my off-time, I was like, I got to be working on something else. And my husband and I had recently met online\u2014we met on OKCupid\u2014and we had lots of friends that were online dating, and they were asking me, as sort of a marketing writer, even though I wasn\u2019t really that yet\u2014hey can you help me with my online dating profile?<\/p>\n<p>So I started a little business called Frog 2 Prince\u2014you can still visit the website I think\u2014unless my credit card subscription has run out. <em>(laughs)<\/em> But yeah, I was charging guys, mostly, and I would help write their profile, I would give consultations, I actually partnered with a photographer and we would take photos of these guys&#8230; and it wasn\u2019t a super lucrative business, and also, it was a bit of a creepy business because usually what happened at the end is the guy would go, do you want to go out with me? I\u2019d be like, that wasn\u2019t really&#8230;\u00a0<em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>That\u2019s not the service. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, and I was pretty young at the time, I was like 24, so it wasn\u2019t a field that I wanted to go into in depth but I got a really good taste of trying something out on my own and it ultimately helped me get the job at the tech company that I got, because it was like a line item on my resume.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Side note: Frog2Prince.com is currently available&#8230; if anybody wants to steal it&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Oh, no, it\u2019s frog2prince.net, and it\u2019s\u2014see, this is like\u2014I was inexperienced\u2014actually it\u2019s the number 2. Frog, the number 2, prince dot net.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Which is like, I mean, you don\u2019t do that. Like, I did it because it was cute at the time&#8230; but it wasn\u2019t even cute at the time. I was like, it\u2019s funny, like if you go to the website it has this 8-bit cartoon characters&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It\u2019s great! It\u2019s really great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I was trying to be \u201cinternet: 1998\u201d or something. I don\u2019t know. But anyway, yeah, frog, number 2, prince dot net. And I actually bought duckling2swan for like, women, but I never developed it. So, there you go. It was a failed experiment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>No, I think you can circle back to that later in life, or like, 2018 and get that going again. We\u2019ll talk about that later. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I\u2019m curious, though, starting your own business, there are definitely lessons aside from, you know, don\u2019t use the number 2 in your URL that have impacted what you\u2019re doing today. Talk a little bit about what you learned in starting a business that\u2019s completely different from copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I learned how much goes into it. It sounds kind of silly, but, I think when I was like, oh, I can just offer online dating consulting, I really thought oh, people can just find me, I\u2019ll have a little website, we\u2019ll just have a conversation and I\u2019ll help them and that\u2019s it. And what I learned was oh no. You need to have very clearly defined boundaries, which you know I\u2019m going to talk about, like you might need to have packages, you need to have the business structured, in a way. I learned a lot about like, how to get paid. Like, oh crap, if you\u2019re going to take payments on a website, that\u2019s like a thing you need to learn how to do. I learned that building a website was super hard.<\/p>\n<p>At one point, with Frog2Prince, I was like, I think I\u2019m going to get an intern, which was like the world\u2019s worst idea. First of all, I couldn\u2019t pay the intern. Which was like ridiculous. But I wasn\u2019t really getting paid. I was like, maybe there\u2019s somebody else out there who sort of wants some experience writing and I can help them, even though it was like, the blind leading the blind. And I had this intern and like, she didn\u2019t do that much work for me. I mean the relationship maybe lasted a month, but I learned, it\u2019s like holy crap, it\u2019s so hard to manage people and managing people, if you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing, takes up like way more time than doing it yourself. So that was kind of a lesson learned. And, yeah. So I think that was a good lesson. As I was hiring the intern, I remember people were like, that\u2019s a really dumb idea. And I was like, \u201cWhy? She can just help me out!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong><em>(laughs<\/em>) But it wasn\u2019t quite that good!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Why didn\u2019t you like the agency? It sounds like the agency\u2019s what got acquired. Or, which company got acquired?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>The tech company I worked for that got acquired.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So basically, here\u2019s the, like, steps: Step One was working in South Korea editing English-language textbooks and teaching English, which by the way, taught me a lot about the English language, \u2018because I had to teach grammar. Teaching English in Korea. Then I came home and I worked for basically what I would call \u201cCopy Farm\u201d, and at the same time I was doing Frog2Prince. And then I worked for a company called Grasshopper which was a tech company, and then Step Five\u2014if anyone\u2019s been following all that\u2014I struck out on my own and started Stories by Emma. Okay, so the Copy Farm: I actually wrote out some notes for you about this, because I actually wrote a post for Medium after I finished working there called \u201cThe Worst Company I Ever Worked For\u201d.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Vindicated on Medium as part of like their\u2014one of their preferred posts, and all it was, was like curation of glass-door reviews from this company, because it was really horrible to work for, and they treated writers terribly. Working there really taught me, like, what writers do is precious. I already knew that, but also like, I am not going to stand for writers being treated in this way. And that\u2019s kind of been a guiding light for my whole career, of like, I am not going to be stepped on, I\u2019m not going to be asked to do things for free, I\u2019m not going to accept less than what I\u2019m worth, because this company was like all about basically making writers feel like their craft wasn\u2019t valuable. So let me tell you a little bit about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So, they hired recent college graduates, and they paid us twenty thousand dollars a year in downtown Boston, which was like nothing in downtown Boston. It was like, I couldn\u2019t pay my rent on this salary. And the business model was that we would write fresh content, basically industry news articles everyday. So for example we\u2019d write like a two hundred to four hundred word article on cloud computing, but we do it everyday. And we\u2019d source it based on, like, whatever innovations were in the actual news. So, people have to write four thousand words a day. And, they would fall behind, and when they fell behind, you were going to get fired.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>Exhale<\/em>. Oh my gosh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> And so people would quit like the day before they knew they were going to get fired, and like, I actually was only there for five months, but it was like my first foray into really professional writing I think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Surprising that you would hate that job, I can\u2019t imagine why.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>. I mean it was like a nightmare! And the thing is the culture was so toxic because everybody was really miserable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>And that explains why you\u2019re such a fast writer today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yes. Actually Kira, it taught me actually that writing quickly was a really, really valuable skill. So, one of the reasons I did really well at that company and I was only there for five months and I was promoted to their executive writer team, and it was because I was fast. So, I realized like \u201cOh!\u201d I was fast and good, and you know how people say, \u201cYou can have fast, good, cheap\u2014pick two\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Mm-hm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I always say, like, okay, I\u2019m fast and good and not cheap, and that\u2019s like sort of how I think about my business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. So tell us about what you\u2019re doing today in Stories by Emma, the kind of assignments you take on, the kind of work you do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Sure; so, I specialize in content marketing, not really copywriting as much. So I work on blog content and strategy; I work on case studies, which we might talk about more later on in this conversation. I work on long-form eBooks, I do a lot of customer interviews for blog content; I do some long-form web copy, but not sort of direct response, more like SEO-optimized. So those are the kinds of things I specialize in, and I, you know\u2014with different clients, I do different things. I work as a blog editor with one client, and with one client I do more traditional sort of writing blog assignments. With another client, I work with them more strategically on how to get case studies done. So there\u2019s a little bit of a spread, but I specialize in writing in tech, and that\u2019s because I got that experience working at a tech company for three years where I learned a ton about tech marketing and content marketing in particular.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, so now that we know where you are today, and then we know where you started, and I love how you broke it down into the five steps for us to digest. So what happened in between\u2014because we skipped over the middle, like the messy middle\u2014what were the first few months like when you went out on your own?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> That\u2019s funny because I remember a few days after I quit\u2014and I was in my apartment, and I was like, I feel like I don\u2019t have a job! And it was simultaneous feeling of this is the best thing ever and what have I done?! And I remember sitting in my apartment and thinking that, and instead of being like, wow, I really need to dive in and focus, I was like, I\u2019m going to go on a walk. And I lived in downtown Boston, at the time, which is super beautiful. It was July\u2014it was summer. And I took a walk along the river and I was like, this is going to be the best thing I\u2019ve ever done. I was very confident that I would be able to succeed\u2014even though it was super nerve wracking.<\/p>\n<p>I remember in that first month, I took on a client and it was for SEO consulting work and I didn\u2019t know that much about SEO and I was in totally over my head. There were like, long hours in the beginning, not because I was overwhelmingly busy, more like because I was like, stupid about what I said yes to and what I charged and all of those kind of things that I learned along the way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And how did you get those first clients? Were you doing any kind of outreach or did you just sort of wait for them to fall in your lap?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, so one of those things that is a really good personal strength is that I\u2019m really good at cultivating personal relationships, especially in person. I mean, I do it online, too, but I had a lot of in person relationships that helped me, so I was part of a content marketing networking group in Boston where there were like, you know, fifty people that I knew personally, that, when I quit (my job) I told them all&#8230; and then, I also had made a lot of connections working in-house at the tech company so we would do guest posting campaigns where I wrote for like a ton of different websites and after I quit, I reached out to all of those people, so I did do outreach once I quit, but most of it, I would say, was warm and I wasn\u2019t sort of randomly pitching. I did respond to some like, job requests, like I gave Upwork a shot, there\u2019s like ProBlogger job board, I looked at some of that stuff, but I mostly found that the warm leads really led to the best business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay. So what else helped you? So like, not to say that you\u2019ve made it, but you did! You\u2019ve pushed through a lot of the hard stuff to get your business running and increase your rates and have successful business. So what do you think you were able to do that you would say is really critical for new copywriters to do or embody as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So there\u2019s a bunch of things that I think copywriters should consider. One is working in house. So I see a lot of freelance copywriters that are like, oh, I just sort of wanted to do this and I have no experience&#8230; and I couldn\u2019t, without having worked in-house. Like, I\u2019m often even like \u201cMaybe I should go back in-house because I could learn so much more about this other thing!\u201d depending on where you work, so I think it\u2019s actually like, getting a full time job can be like a really good education in content marketing or copywriting if you do it for a couple of years. So I think making in-person connections is another thing. I was willing to invest in like, paying money for like, conferences and stuff like that that just helped me meet people. And when I met people, it wasn\u2019t like I was like, hey, I want you to be a client, it was more like, hey, what do you do? I\u2019m interested in learning about you.<\/p>\n<p>And later down the line&#8230; that would sort of come back in the form of work. I think some of the other investments I\u2019ve made is that I hired a business coach about a year in because I was drowning in work\u2014I felt really miserable, like, despite the success I\u2019ve had, there\u2019s been like a lot of down times and last year, I was like, maybe I should seriously like, go back to work fulltime somewhere because this isn\u2019t working for me. And the business coach actually really helped me put systems into place, and I could NOT have done it without her\u2014that\u2019s the thing. So I think making some of those investments and making investments in yourself is really important. I think copywriters have a tendency to be like, I don\u2019t have any money for that! And like, I get it. It\u2019s expensive to hire a business coach, but for me, it paid off. Same with being part of the copywriter club think tank that I\u2019m in now. It really pays off to invest in some of that stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So I really want to underline what you were saying about working in-house because like you were saying, so many people just jump into this, it\u2019s something that I can do, it\u2019s easy, I can do it from home, I don\u2019t need any experience, and I look across the board and so many of the writers that people look up to started with in-house positions. People like Joanna Wiebe, who worked in-house for Intuit and Roy Fur, who worked in-house for a long time doing both marketing and copywriting, and you know, the list goes on and on. You know, the number of people who have experience at agencies or in-house for specific companies is really big and you just have this opportunity to learn from other people who know what they\u2019re doing already, on their dime; you don\u2019t have to find your own clients. It\u2019s just a great way to learn the business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, and I think what it really teaches you is the business part of it. So, I worked for\u2014my manager was in SEO\u2014but he was like, he\u2019s still to this day, one of the best marketers I\u2019ve ever worked with. Like, he is absolutely amazing and he taught me so much about what value content had for a business and it wasn\u2019t like he was like, don\u2019t be creative, it was like he helped me connect the dots and I just don\u2019t think I could\u2019ve learned that without working hand in hand with him, trying to get really great content out the door and then trying to optimize it. So it gave me a strategic edge to have that experience. Yeah! I mean, I think it also opens up a lot of connections, right? Like you work in-house for a while and you meet all of these people that can then lead to work down the line.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, absolutely. So you said in your first year, you got to the point where you were drowning in work and I imagine a lot of people are listening, thinking, holy cow, how come my first year hasn\u2019t been like that? You know? How did that happen and how did you deal with it? What were the systems you put in place in order to make that work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Sure! So when I say I was drowning in work, I don\u2019t want people to think like, it was the most amazing year ever&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>It was like, I was working harder, not smarter. So here\u2019s some of the things that were happening. I didn\u2019t have any sort of onboarding system, so anytime a new client would come to me, I would just like, email them back, like, spur of the moment. I didn\u2019t have like, okay, this is the email they\u2019re going to receive, I had no marketing materials, I didn\u2019t have a rate card, and I didn\u2019t have\u2014like, now I send a PDF with more information about me. And so I was drowning because of like, back and forth interactions. And I was also drowning because I didn\u2019t have rules, or boundaries, so, for example, now I say to clients, you only get one round of revisions. Like, I pass off my copy in a Google doc, go in, make as many comments as you want, I will revise one time and that\u2019s you know, the project. But when I was drowning, I would\u2014I didn\u2019t have any system like that in place. So a revision could stretch on for months\u2014it was just burning me out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>And I also don\u2019t think I was very good at saying no, especially when there were red flags. So there were a bunch of people that I worked with that I was like, this person is a jerk. I think I\u2019m going to work with them!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>And you know, I think that bred a lot of resentment in me, so when I went to that business coach, I was just feeling like, burnt out, not really from the amount of hours, but by how I was being treated and by just like, struggling to sort of keep up with the emails and make sure things didn\u2019t fall through the cracks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So let\u2019s talk about the boundaries. You know, we had a Facebook live recently where you talked a lot about boundaries. So let\u2019s talk about some of the boundaries and rules that you set up for your business that have saved you from drowning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, and I was thinking about the boundaries things, and I just want to say, before I get into these crazy boundaries\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> (laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> \u2026they\u2019re really like, guidelines. So like, I disobey the boundaries occasionally if not often, but they provide like a really good framework for like, this is how I operate. And I\u2019ve heard, and probably people listening have heard too, that if you make a decision once, that\u2019s a lot easier than having to make a decision over and over again, so for example, if you decide, I go to the gym on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and that\u2019s a decision you make, it\u2019s way easier to actually follow up on that than if you say, I\u2019m going to go to the gym more. And then it\u2019s like, you wake up every morning and you\u2019re like, should I go, shouldn\u2019t I go? And then you end up not going. So that\u2019s kind of the inspiration for this.<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019ve divided this up into client boundaries and life boundaries. But let\u2019s start with clients. So. No work on the weekends! Period. No texting, no G-Chat, no emails after 6pm. No roundabout ways of paying invoices. You pay me via my invoice software, which has so many options, so if you have another way, like, no! Okay. No working off-contract, and no client calls in the car, and every client relationship has to start with a 15 minute consult call. So that\u2019s just sort of a short list of the client boundaries I\u2019ve come up with that work for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Okay, let\u2019s talk about no working off-contract, because I think a lot of times, we tend to be pretty smart about that first project where it\u2019s like, okay, I\u2019ve got the contract, we finish that up, and the client comes back, now we have a bit of a relationship with them, sometimes it feels a little weird to send them a contract on the second project, or maybe the seventh or eighth project, so I love this rule.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Yeah! So this was a hard one for me to learn, and not because I got like super burned and someone took me to court or something&#8230; but I had like a relationship with another copywriter I used to work for go a little bit awry and they like, canceled our contract, and it made me feel kind of weird, and I read the contract super in-depth and at that moment, I was like, dude, I really need better contracts. And so I hired a business lawyer, somebody I\u2019d met in person, in San Diego, and like a creatives conference, and for $500 she made a great contract for me that I can use, and change. But yeah, I do think it can be hard, time after time, but I try and make contracts that are more open-ended, so like, the contract would be good for a year, for example, it\u2019s not like I need to send them a new contract you know, every month.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right. Okay, so as far as the payment, I believe it was Maggie Patterson, when she came on the show, she had mentioned she charges the initial deposit and then collects 30 days after that, and so I started doing that recently\u2014so setting that boundary and that rule for my business has helped alleviate a lot of financial stress, because before, I would collect that final payment at the end of the project, and that was not always clear. It was like, well, do you send it when it\u2019s the first draft, or the final draft, or when do you send it? So, I\u2019m just curious, what type of payment boundaries, guidelines, have you set for your business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>So I require fifty percent deposit when working with any new client, and they have to pay that before work commences, and it\u2019s funny because yes, I say it\u2019s a boundary, but here\u2019s an example of when I\u2019ll sort of not do it&#8230; sometimes, companies have like, really difficult accounting companies to work with, and securing that fifty percent deposit is like super difficult, so occasionally, I\u2019ll say like, eh, it\u2019s okay, you can pay me at the end.<\/p>\n<p>But I invoice at the end of the month, so I invoice on the last Friday of every month. The 50 percent deposit happens when it happens, but in general, the invoice will come on Friday at the end of the month that the work was completed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, cool. So as far as other boundaries, the texting, and Gmail, or like your client is sending you messages over Slack, and this happens to all of us and it can get a bit out of control, even when they don\u2019t have bad intentions, they\u2019re just trying to contact you. So how do you handle a situation like that? How do you redirect it in a way where you don\u2019t feel like a jerk, too?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, so we talked a little bit about this in our Facebook live, and I think, some of it is getting smart about how much you let it affect you. Because ultimately, we\u2019re only responsible for ourselves and what we can control. So for example, Slack\u2019s a great one, and I gave the example I think of, someone came to me and was like, these Slack notifications are waking me up in the middle of the night, I wake up in the morning and I have like twenty messages and I\u2019m totally overwhelmed&#8230; and I was like, why don\u2019t you just turn off slack notifications? I wasn\u2019t saying that because like, I knew better\u2014it\u2019s just like, we forget that we actually have more control over these things than we think, so like, I for example, won\u2019t open slack on my computer until about 10am when I\u2019ve kind of answered emails for the day and I\u2019m a bit more settled in. So, I think making choices about how you respond&#8230; so if you have a client and they\u2019re like, I need you right now!!! Where are you???? Where are you??? You can feel like, shoot! I got to respond this second!! But you can actually wait, and you should get back on your own time.<\/p>\n<p>So, yeah. That same person that was talking about those notification was also frustrated because she was in a different time zone than her client and the client\u2014she would send an email at the end of her workday, and it would be the morning for the client, who I think was in Hong Kong. So he would respond immediately and it was really stressing her out because she was like, I\u2019m done for the day, it\u2019s after my 6pm\u2014I can\u2019t work on this! And my suggestion was, hey, why don\u2019t you schedule that email to go out at a time that works for you? Right? Like you can just delay sending that email out and get smart a little bit about using tools so that when he responds, you\u2019re there to receive those responses.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So I\u2019m curious how your clients have reacted to the boundaries that you\u2019ve put in place. I\u2019m sure that a lot of people, when they\u2019re thinking about this, they think, \u201cOh, this is going to be received as a negative by my clients\u201d.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> I do think that boundaries have sort of a negative connotation, and they did for me before I put them in, because it feels like you\u2019re putting a barrier between you and your client, and you want to be like super available. But what I found is that having these boundaries actually makes people feel like I\u2019m running a really legitimate business. So, it\u2019s not that when I talk to them, I\u2019m like \u201cHey, here is my list of rules, and you better follow them.\u201d It\u2019s more like I try and redirect. So, for example, it a client G-Chats me, I either will not respond on G-Chat, or I\u2019ll G-Chat them back and say \u201cHey, send this to me in an email or send this to me through the project management system we\u2019re using.\u201d So I have actually found like no real negative reactions to it.<\/p>\n<p>The only thing that can occasionally happen is that a client persists in doing the activity, right? So you say like, \u201cHey; please don\u2019t G-Chat me\u201d, and they keep G-Chatting you, and I think that\u2019s a really common problem. Again, I would say, like, don\u2019t respond; I think we think like \u201cOh, if I don\u2019t respond, they\u2019re going to get mad at me\u201d. But I think you cannot respond, pick up the phone, and be like \u201cHey, I want to explain why I\u2019m not responding on G-Chat. I don\u2019t use it for business because&#8230;\u201d and position it as a value to them, because it\u2019s really easy for things to get lost on G-Chat and I want to make sure I\u2019m crystal clear about what we\u2019re working on and what questions you have so let\u2019s keep it all in one place. I think that\u2019s super important as positioning the boundaries as a benefit to them because it actually is. Like, you can do better work if like you\u2019re not taking a phone call in the car, for example.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, and it\u2019s also good for us to remember as the service provider that maybe the last person your client had hired was open to texting or&#8212;well, I can\u2019t imagine why anybody would be open to that, but\u2014maybe open to receiving messaging on Slack or other channels. So it\u2019s almost like we have to train our clients, and they\u2019re looking to us for that guidance.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, and I think one of the things my business coach taught me was be much more proactive and that clients would feel l was much more professional if I was proactive, rather than being super reaction. So, instead of waiting for a client to be like \u201cWe\u2019re going to communicate on Slack\u201d, it\u2019s on me to be say like, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to communicate by email\u201d, or \u201cWe\u2019re going to communicate on Slack,\u201d or \u201cWe\u2019re going to communicate in a project management tool,\u201d and taking a little bit of that control because what I believe is that if you put boundaries into place, then it puts you in the driver\u2019s seat of that relationship a little bit more, and I think clients really respect that. I don\u2019t think they\u2019re super resistant to that. I think they see you more as an expert if you do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So I want to talk about your life boundaries which, I mean these are all life boundaries, but, specifically into your personal life, because I know you\u2019ve set some boundaries there that we\u2019ve talked about as well. I\u2019d love to hear some examples because this is as just as important as the business boundaries.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Sure! So, I have like a couple of ones that are like, sort of silly, like I told you guys, I think, there\u2019s no cats allowed in our bedroom. That\u2019s one thing, although I actually violated for the first time last night.<\/p>\n<p><strong><em>Kira:<\/em><\/strong><em> Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>And like, I\u2019m going on a podcast tomorrow talking about boundaries as the cats are in my bed, so like I failed my own boundary. But that\u2019s a rule, you know: no cats in the bedroom. I don\u2019t know how they got in last night, but these personal ones all have like a parenthetical statement at the end, so it\u2019s like, \u201cno cats in the bedroom, but I violated this last night\u201d; \u201cno going home for the holidays\u201d. I live in California, my family\u2019s in Boston. I love them and they\u2019re the absolute best but traveling home for the holidays is like, such a nightmare!<\/p>\n<p>And so if I don\u2019t want to go, like, I\u2019ve given myself permission that it\u2019s okay. Like, that\u2019s a boundary that I\u2019ve said to the family like \u201cHey, I\u2019m not coming home from the holidays this year\u201d, which is super difficult to do, \u00a0and that could be a whole podcast in itself. Let\u2019s see&#8230;so, we have another rule, which is: we live in a really small one-bedroom apartment in Silicon Valley. And, we have a rule, that there\u2019s no guests allowed to stay overnight in our one-bedroom apartment, which is super controversial, but we find that we\u2019ve said, \u201cHey, we\u2019ll pay for a hotel.\u201d We live like next door to a hotel. We\u2019ll pay for a hotel for guests, but having people like come and stay, especially for like a week, is like actually not optimal for anybody, but people get kind of&#8230;.I don\u2019t know. See? I feel bad about some of these personal boundaries. Some of these are way harder.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, but especially if you work from home, you know, having house-guests in a one-bedroom apartment? Like, it just doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Well that\u2019s what I think. But like, this is difficult, right? Because it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t really want to, like, tell my sister like \u201cHey, can you guys stay somewhere else?\u201d Like, I\u2019ve had to do that and it feels like crap. So I think the personal ones are harder for me than the client ones, which, you know, kind of makes sense. Like I think I can keep my client relationships very professional, but with the personal relationships, it\u2019s like I want my sister to love me no matter what, right? So, (<em>laughs),<\/em> those ones are a bit harder.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So what would you say Emma, to someone who doesn\u2019t have clear boundaries in their business and their life, and they\u2019re listening and they\u2019re like \u201cOkay, I need to do this\u201d, where can they start if it doesn\u2019t come easily to them and they can\u2019t necessarily hire the same business coach that you worked with or a business coach at all? Where can they start?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, so what I would recommend is creating a list of things you want to happen in your ideal day. So, maybe you, you know, plot that out. Maybe you want to start working at 9AM and you want to stop at 4. Well that means, realistically, you\u2019re not going to send any emails after 4 o\u2019clock. Right? So like, try and plot out what your ideal day looks like; plot out, like, when you want to start and stop, when you want to take lunch, if you want to be able to run an errand in the middle of the day, like go to the grocery store in the morning or afternoon\u2014which is a huge benefit of working for yourself, by the way\u2014sort of carve out what your ideal day or week looks like, and then create the boundaries from there, because I think it\u2019s sort of an extension, right, where like if you want to work certain house, then by extension, you can create boundaries in place. And like, some of that is like, I thought of another professional one, which is that I don\u2019t take meetings on Mondays and Fridays&#8230; I only take meetings Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and that\u2019s like\u2014it\u2019s not just like, I have to remember that all of the time; I have a Calendly calendar that blocks off those days so clients can\u2019t schedule at that time.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s kind of the extension of once you decide, hey, I need a couple of days a week where I don\u2019t have meetings, then you can say, okay, well, when a client schedules something with me, those options need to not be available, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, that just makes me realize that I have set some boundaries\u2014like, same one\u2014no calls Mondays and Fridays, but I break them quite often, so maybe I just have to rethink how often I\u2019m actually breaking my boundaries.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Yeah, and I think it\u2019s okay to break the boundaries occasionally and that\u2019s why I think people should think of them as guidelines\u2014and as a goal, because you know, we can\u2019t like, I have responded to an email after 6pm. I\u2019ve let my cats into my bedroom, like one time I did it. But still I think giving yourself permission to do that is fine because sometimes the situation calls for it. It\u2019s just that having some boundaries in place can make you feel more in control of your business, which is not something we should take for granted.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, definitely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So, I want to pivot, Emma, and ask you about one of your recent packages that I know we\u2019ve chatted about in the think-tank, but you\u2019ve recently launched a package for case studies and you\u2019ve been working with clients on case studies. And what I\u2019m interested is kind of what happened behind the scenes in order for you to create the package\u2014even figure out what they want\u2014and launch it into this world. I know it wasn\u2019t easy, behind the scenes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah, so I had been working with a lot of clients that were requesting customer stories, case studies, also like, expert interviews. Like, they\u2019d interview people like the two of you and they\u2019d want to put your insights into a post on their blog and so I was getting tons and tons of work in this space and I really enjoyed it because I really love interviewing people, I mean, you guys are doing it right now to me, but it\u2019s super fun to talk to people and find out what they\u2019re working on and I was having the opportunity to talk to people that were totally outside the copywriting space. So the thing about it was, I feel like before I launched it I was really living in a business comfort zone. Like it was something I wanted to do for like a year and it wasn\u2019t until I kind of joined the copywriter think tank and I had some other people be like, yeah, you should really do this, for me to be like okay, yeah. I have all the tools I need, I have some people I can bounce the copy off of, I have people that know about packages, and it really gave the momentum to actually launch it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So what\u2019s working for you, as far as case studies go? How do you put them together? What does the project look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> The way that I\u2019ve been selling them is, the company has to buy three case studies\u2014like a package of three case studies\u2014and with case studies i\u2019ve recognized that they\u2019re not something that people want one of every single week. It\u2019s more like they want to build a library of case studies&#8230; they maybe want six in all, they maybe want one per marketing persona, so I found that if I offered three, that was like a good package offering, like somebody could buy three case studies. I\u2019ve found that I can sort of like, sell a lot as part of that package. So one of the reasons I like case studies is that it\u2019s not just like, okay, you write something&#8230; it includes the interview, it includes coming up with the template for case studies, it includes a lot of outreach, it includes a lot of approvals from the client that you\u2019re interviewing; there\u2019s a lot of back and forth and project management that goes into it so I\u2019ve found that I\u2019m able to charge a higher price tag. So that\u2019s how I\u2019m trying to sell them now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Do you mind sharing how much you\u2019re charging?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Well, I think it\u2019s about three grand for three case studies.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Cool. And then they\u2019ll buy those three case studies and then you\u2019ll deliver over six months, or three months&#8230;?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So that\u2019s something that I\u2019m trying to massage. So at the beginning, I was like oh I can do them as soon as possible but I didn\u2019t realize just how long it was going to take to get all the stakeholders involved, like, even scheduling the calls, like, people are horrible at! Like the customers that I\u2019m interviewing, right? Like they don\u2019t get back to me or I need a headshot and it takes like a week to get it, stuff like that\u2014so it\u2019s taken longer than I\u2019ve expected, so I think like yeah, three to six months is the expectation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>And what would you say to a copywriter listening who wants to package a service, maybe it\u2019s not case studies\u2014maybe it\u2019s something else, and they haven\u2019t packaged anything before and created the process and thought about the pricing before; do you have any advice based on what maybe worked well or what didn\u2019t work for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> So, it was really, really difficult for me to do packaging. I really struggled with it. The reason that I struggled so much with packages is that I always want to be there for my client to customize what i\u2019m offering based on their needs and sometimes, I feel like packages out there are too cookie-cutter, and even when I worked in-house as a content marketer, I was like, this is too packages and like, half this stuff, I don\u2019t need. I really wanted to like, have more control and pick and choose what I wanted.<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s something that I was super conscious about, and I think\u2014what I would say is that when you\u2019re putting together packages, you really have to get experience with what you\u2019re doing first, and see how people respond to different proposals. Like, you could just say on a phone call, like, \u201cWhat if we did a package of three case studies?\u201d Or, like, \u201cDo you only want one case study, or would you like to have five?\u201d And let their kind of answers guide you, \u2018because if somebody\u2019s like \u201cWell I\u2019d like ten case studies\u201d, then you\u2019re like \u201cOh well maybe I should be putting together a once-a-month case study package that goes through the year\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>So when I was coming up with packages, I got on the phone with a lot of people that I knew had case studies, and I had no aims for them to hire me. I was just like, \u201cCan you tell me about how these things get written, how often you publish them, why you choose to profile who you do, what are the barriers you\u2019re running up against?\u201d so that I could then create the package based on what they actually wanted as opposed to like what I think they wanted, or what I thought like I could charge them a lot for. \u2018Because I think people make that mistake where they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, if I put all these things together, I can add a really big price tag\u201d, and I don\u2019t really like to work that way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>We get a lot of questions in <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em> Facebook group about structuring retainers, and I know that you\u2019ve worked with several clients on a retainer basis. What does your retainer contract look like, or what kinds of things do you make sure are in place, the boundaries again, to ensure that those types of relationships work, and don\u2019t fall apart, because the client expects too much or you\u2019re not able to deliver on those expectations?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Yeah, so I think retainers are really tricky and there\u2019s a few different ways I\u2019ve gone about it. One is that I\u2019ve charged hourly, and it\u2019s really the only time that I will charge hourly, because I do think that hourly leaves some room for random back and forth emails or G-Chat, or, I mean&#8230; I still don\u2019t use G-Chat, but like&#8230;. it leaves room so that if the client is contacting you, you\u2019re not like, \u201cThis is not in the scope!\u201d You can just kid of tack it within the hours that you\u2019re doing, so I\u2019ve found that that\u2019s been actually a really good way of doing it and having sort of a minimum number of hours the client has to commit to. That especially works for clients that are like, \u201cI don\u2019t know what I want.\u201d For other clients, I basically send them like a rate sheet with you know, case studies x dollars, a blog post is y dollars, a eBook is z dollars, and, I say as you want these things, they\u2019ll be charged monthly, and the retainer is more like a cap. So for example, I have a client that pays me four grand a month, and that\u2019s the cap, right? So they know what the individual items cost as they ask for them, and when we reach the cap, that\u2019s on me to say like hey, we\u2019ve reached our threshold or if we\u2019re consistently not reaching it every month, that\u2019s also on me to say like, \u201cHey, is there more you need me to do? Because you\u2019re spending half of what our agreement is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, it feels like to make a retainer work, there\u2019s got to be a lot of extra communication, and a lot of heads up, you know, \u201cthis is where we\u2019re at\u201d, so that the client expectations just don\u2019t get out of control.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yes, and I think one thing I\u2019d say is that it really doesn\u2019t make sense to do a retainer for me for less than four grand a month. And that\u2019s just because of like all of that. Like, it doesn\u2019t make sense to have a retainer client that\u2019s paying you five hundred dollars a month to do like a few things; at least, it doesn\u2019t make sense for me at this point. I really like retainer clients because it\u2019s really like having a partner to do business with that you can get much more in-depth with that you\u2019re doing, but there are some challenges there and yeah&#8230;I\u2019m still figuring it out too. That\u2019s what I\u2019d say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So, I know we\u2019re almost out of time and, there are a bunch of questions that I still wanted to ask you we won\u2019t be able to get to, but, I\u2019d like to hear just what you think is a missed opportunity for copywriters today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>I think copywriters shouldn\u2019t be afraid to write in industries that they, at the surface, don\u2019t know anything about. Like I see a lot of copywriters that are like, \u201cOh I\u2019m going to write for coaches,\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m going to write for like beauty brands\u201d or I\u2019m going to write for like these kind of sexy industries, just because like that\u2019s what they see and what they interact with and I think those industries are great and the copywriters that work for them are awesome, but I also encourage copywriters, especially new ones, to try out a bunch of different things and see what sticks, \u2018because I think there\u2019s missed opportunity there, that if you specialize in a few things that are kind of unusual, that can help you get ahead.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Really good stuff. I especially love, you know, what you\u2019re saying about boundaries and the advice you\u2019ve given us on retainers. It\u2019s just a lot of meat in this episode and we really appreciate you taking the time to share so much stuff with us, Emma. If people want to connect with you, where would they go to find you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> Well you can always send me an email; it\u2019s emma@storiesbyemma.co. You can find me on Twitter; my Twitter username is @emmafayeis; or you can find me on Facebook under Emma Siemasko and I\u2019m a member of <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em>. You could find me anywhere. If it\u2019s a fellow copywriter, I don\u2019t care if you G-Chat me, so&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh, interesting!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>No boundaries for fellow copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>; you\u2019re going to regret saying that!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma: <\/strong>Yeah! You can find me wherever you are, let\u2019s say that!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>We can find you at frog2prince.net.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob &amp; Emma:<\/strong> There you go!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Everyone, everyone, please check out that website right now. All right, thanks Emma.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Thanks, Emma.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Emma:<\/strong> All right, thanks you guys.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity, by Whitest Boy Alive, available on iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For the 67th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob sit down with copywriter and content specialist, Emma Siemasko to talk about her business, working with clients, and the [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[90,3],"class_list":["post-1192","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-emma-siemasko","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #67: Setting Boundaries with Emma Siemasko - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copywriter Emma Siemasko on how a trip to South Korea launched her copywriting career, what she learned from starting a non-copywriting (dating) business, setting boundaries with clients, her advice to beginning copywriters, and the future of copywriting. 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