{"id":1240,"date":"2018-01-25T15:33:25","date_gmt":"2018-01-25T08:33:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1240"},"modified":"2018-10-20T21:47:04","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T14:47:04","slug":"hypnotic-copy-jesse-gernigin","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/hypnotic-copy-jesse-gernigin\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #71: Writing Hypnotic Copy with Jesse Gernigin"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and hypnotist Jesse Gernigin joins\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> to talk with\u00a0Kira and Rob about his freelance business, creating an online summit, and how knowing how to hypnotize people helps him know how to attract customers and sell more products. In this interview, we talk about:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how Jesse went from magician to hypnotist to copywriter<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what it takes to bee a hypnotist<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the #1 thing he did that made him a successful hypnotist<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he sent potential clients when he was cold contacting<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how often he succeeded (and failed) when he was cold emailing and how he increased his chances of success<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how Jesse works with clients to get them what they need (not just what they want)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he did on Upwork to succeed<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0acting as a strategist in addition to working as a copywriter<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what it takes to assemble an online summit and what has surprised him the most from putting on a summit<\/p>\n<p>And while talking about his summit, Jesse let us in on the tools he used to get his summit online and we asked him about the two best speakers he included in his summit. Finally Jesse told us\u00a0what he thinks will happen to copywriting in the future. To get this one&#8230; click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_648\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1240-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC071JG.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC071JG.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC071JG.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC071JG.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1240-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC071JG.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC071JG.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/TCCinNYC\">The Copywriter Club In Real Life<\/a>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.stealthseminar.com\/our-story?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Geoff Ronning<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1440511411\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1440511411&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=2201733129d23c6e526c49273e8828e3\"><em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em> by Dan Kennedy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.legacy.com\/obituaries\/saltlaketribune\/obituary.aspx?pid=86134979\">Vander Meide<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/about\/about-ramit\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ramit Sethi<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.creativelive.com\/instructor\/chase-jarvis\">Chase Jarvis<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/funnel-copywriter-paige-poutiainen\/\">Paige Poutiainen<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-danny-marguiles\/\">Danny Marguiles<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thrivethemes.com\/architect\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Thrive Architect<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/rainmakerdigital.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rainmaker<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/rainmakerdigital.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">WordPress<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/mbsy.co\/convertkit\/27552800\">ConvertKit<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/teachable.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Teachable<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/vimeo.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Vimeo<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.nataliemcguiredesign.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Natalie McGuire<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/humor-copywriter-lianna-patch\/\">Lianna Patch<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/tcc-podcast-18-hillary-weiss\/\">Hillary Weiss<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.eofire.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Entrepreneur on Fire<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/livegoldrich.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Live Gold Rich<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 71 as we chat with copywriter, marketing consultant, and hypnotist Jesse Gernigin about trading his magic act for high paying copywriting gigs, how he finds and lands freelance clients, what goes on behind the scenes of an online summit, and how hypnotism helps him become a better copywriter!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Welcome, Jesse!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Thank you guys so much for having me! It\u2019s great to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s great to have you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s cool to talk with you guys on this end after having you both on my summit, so this is great!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah! So we\u2019re going to talk about your summit in a bit; you\u2019re a first hypnotist on the show!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Okay! Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, we\u2019re waiting for you to say something like \u201clook into my eyes\u201d\u2014follow the watch&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I\u2019m actually a little nervous now! I feel like you might hypnotize us and make us say something ridiculous. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> No, no, no. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>All right, Jesse, a good place to start is just with your story. You know, who are you? How did you get into copywriting? Especially with the magic background? Tell us a little more about your story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Oh, this is funny. So we\u2019re going to go back to the days of copywriting books\u2014Dan Kennedy\u2019s, I think 1993 book\u2014<em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em>. So, I graduated college in 2007, so I came out right at the heart of the recession, and nobody was hiring for anything I had a degree in. And I\u2019d been a magician and a hypnotist, and I\u2019d work, you know, shows and make five or six thousand dollars a year just doing it on the side. And my buddy told me, you should just do this full time until a job opens up! So I went out, found an agent, and I was a really great performer.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t like to toot my own horn, because I wasn\u2019t necessarily more talented than anybody else, but I have a great personality, which is big as a freelancer, big as an entertainer. It makes up for a lot of shortcomings. So I got on with a couple agents and my whole process exploded! And I was making an extra fifteen thousand dollars or so a year, and since I had scholarships for college I didn\u2019t have any debt. I didn\u2019t live very well; I was getting by on maybe twenty two, twenty five thousand dollars a year, but because I had little debt, and I spent most of my time traveling for shows, I lived pretty well. I realized I wanted to grow my business and there was this big opportunity to become a successful entertainer because the market was just not served by quality entertainers. So I decided to market myself.<\/p>\n<p>I had a really great mentor\u2014his name was Geoff Ronning, and he was this amazing stage hypnotist marketer. Which was funny, because he actually left the business too and he runs an online group, I think called Stealth Seminar? But at the time, Jeff was really big on direct response copywriting. And he mentored me to study Dan Kennedy. He told me, \u201cLook. Right now, everyone is moving everything online. And this is the biggest time for you to go into direct mail.\u201d So I actually got my start copywriting, writing for myself, doing direct mail. And so I did postcards, I did\u2014I think they\u2019re called puffy mailers? Where you would send like things in envelopes so people would open them. I would send these massive, massive press kits with all kinds of stuff in it. White paper, reasons you should hire me, and it worked!<\/p>\n<p>And as my business grew, I started experimenting with different types of copywriting, different types of sales letters. I moved into corporate speaking, so I transitioned all the clients I had from hypnosis into relaxation therapy, which I did through NPI. I became NPI\u2019s co-chair of communication, so I access to this huge network of people, and I just had this great business! I was hitting between 85 and 105k and that gross, not net. And I was living a great life. But I\u2019d also kind of hit the ceiling. And that\u2019s when I transitioned to copywriting full time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So I want to ask about the copywriting, but before that, you know, I remember as a kid I remember going to see the Amazing Vandermiede\u2014the magician, or the hypnotist, and seeing that show, and I even bought the book that he sold at the time, you know? Learn How to Hypnotize People. Maybe I thought that I would get my little sister to cluck like a chicken\u2014I don\u2019t know what I was thinking. But, Jesse, how does one become a hypnotist?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> So, now, it\u2019s really not as safe as it was when I started. I actually took three years of training and I became a certified hypnotherapist. So I took two years of training, and then I did a year of mentoring under another expert. So although I never did any hypnotherapy, I could. I could do everything from smoking sensation, weight loss, to this really interesting thing called hypno-birthing, where the woman\u2019s hypnotized for a couple of months before she has the child, and then has the child under hypnosis with no pain medication.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What?!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Sign me up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, you say that, but it\u2019s an expensive process because you have to see the hypnotist twenty, thirty times, if you figure you\u2019re paying them 125 dollars, 150 bucks a session\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh my goodness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> \u2026but yeah. I started out taking a couple years of classes. Now, I\u2019d hypnotized people before I took the classes\u2014I learned to do it in high school just by reading a couple books. But I realized if I was going to do it for a living, I had to get insurance, I had to be certified. So I became a certified hypnotist, I took the training, I got all the certificates, and now you don\u2019t have to, which is scary. I\u2019m not a big fan of it. That\u2019s one of the reasons I transitioned out of the business, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wow. Okay. So, can you still hypnotize people?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, actually, I\u2019ll give you guys a cool tidbit. If you\u2019ve seen a stage hypnosis show, you\u2019ve seen like the hypnotist will invite people on stage, he goes through the process of hypnotizing them, and then he touches them on the head and says, Sleep! And then they go like a ragdoll. The reality is, the people that are going to be hypnotized on stage are hypnotized the second they walk on stage. The hypnotist could sit everybody down, walk down that line of people, touch each of them on the head, and say sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, and everybody that\u2019s going to be hypnotized would go out like that. The reality is, the audience can\u2019t believe that because they don\u2019t have the knowledge to understand how it works. So you actually have to put on the theater of hypnotizing somebody for the audience to believe that the people are hypnotized.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m one of those guys that\u2019s not believing that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I know\u2014yeah.<em> (laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I need to understand the why behind that. Tell us more!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> So, hypnosis is really an instant state. We go in and out of hypnotic states all day. You just kind of get in this pattern, we get in this focus. And what\u2019s really great about the internet is, especially when I was coming to the fro, it was really easy for people to use YouTube to see hypnosis shows. So before, when I started, not a lot of people had actually seen a hypnotist. They might\u2019ve seen them at the comedy club, or at a state fair, but most people didn\u2019t know what happened. So less people than normal would get hypnotized. But when I started doing shows, YouTube was popular, so people would look up hypnotists before I did these shows, so by the time I showed up to do the show, they\u2019d already been programmed to know what to expect and what to react. So when I would go onstage, I didn\u2019t have to explain it to them. They understood, they could read about it, they could listen to lectures, so they had done a lot of what we call \u201cpriming\u201d. We had primed their mind to react to the stimulus. And when I showed up, it was already all done. All I had to do was do the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Okay, so let\u2019s take this back to copywriting. You know, when you mention things like priming, this is obviously a tactic that we can use with clients, or with our client\u2019s customers. Tell me more about how the two interrelate and what you take from hypnotism that makes you a better copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> So the one thing that made me a great and successful hypnotist and able to hypnotize a lot of people was that I constantly read the audience. One of the biggest mistakes hypnotists make when they would have a whole group of people and maybe have one person hypnotized, was that they stuck to this specific script that they had memorized and they wouldn\u2019t read the audience. If I\u2019m hypnotizing people and I see in the first two minutes of my ten minute hypnotizing process that everybody\u2019s already hypnotized, I would just go straight into the show, because I was adaptable.<\/p>\n<p>And the same thing was true if people weren\u2019t responding to what I was doing\u2014I would change tactics to get people hypnotized. And using that skill, reading what people needed to hear, and meeting them where they needed to be met, made me a great copywriter. I discovered that although templates are helpful, and outlines and certain standards do work, it\u2019s being able to understand them and then interpret them person-to-person or audience-to-audience that really helped me increase my copywriting ability. Whether it\u2019s writing for a niche audience to get a corporation to hire me or I\u2019m getting ready to finish out my second $100,000 KickStarter launch where we sold Analogue watches that were smart watches, it was all about being able to interpret the standard and then match the need to the market.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, so I know we should be talking about copywriting, but I still have a couple more questions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> I\u2019m happy to answer everything, don\u2019t worry!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, how could you see and tell that they were hypnotized when you walked onto the stage like you said? Was it just a look in their eye?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> The big answer is experience, right? I did it full time for ten years, so you just start to spot rhythms and patterns. You know how people look. You know how people move. You would know how people would breathe. A lot of things like that. But when people would come on stage, this is part of the old magician showman in me, every person who came on stage, whether it was an adult or a kid, I would meet them at the foot of the stairs, shake their hand, look them in the hand, and introduce myself. Like, \u201cHi, I\u2019m Jesse Gernigin, what\u2019s your name?\u201d And it would slow the show down a little bit but it really created a sense of comfort because now, you\u2019re not just randomly on stage with this guy, like, he introduced himself! It\u2019s kind of comfortable. But when I shook their hands, I could feel how relaxed they were. Like, most people don\u2019t think about this but when you shake somebody\u2019s hand, you can feel the tension they carry in their body. So if you grab their hand and then you reach your other hand up and grab their forearm, you can feel where their tension is, if they\u2019re relaxed, etc. And the people that were already hypnotized had this inherit looseness to their muscles. And I would know where to sit them, how to engage with them, and what to expect. Does that kind of answer your question?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That does. So, then, for us, as copywriters, do we need to become hypnotists and get certified to use this in our copywriting? Is there a shortcut that we can use to take something from your experience and really write better copy? And understand the needs of our market?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Yeah, I think the thing that translates well is the adaptability of persuasiveness. Hypnosis is the art of persuasion. But to be persuasive, you have to adapt to what the market is. And of course as copywriters, we all already know to do this. You research your market, you come up with interview questions, you take notes, you create profiles. Hypnotists do the same thing, but they already enter the stage with that on their mind. The big difference is, hypnosis is done live, copywriting is done behind the scenes. And I feel if you can transfer the skills of remaining adaptable and not fixed, it\u2019d be really helpful. I feel a lot of copywriting that I end up getting paid to rewrite from other copywriters is bad because people came into it with this idea in mind instead of letting it guide them where they needed to be. And i think that\u2019s the biggest translatable skill\u2014the adaptability of persuasiveness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Jesse, I want to jump back to when you were talking about how you became a copywriter. You mentioned a package that you would send out to people. And I know Dan Kennedy talks about the Shock and Awe package and it sounds like that\u2019s what you were sending out\u2014something that just includes tons of stuff! Will you tell us a little bit more about the thinking behind it, what you included in it, what the letter said that worked so well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Okay, so the Shock and Awe package for me worked mainly because I was the only person they were getting mail from. So my packages, I think they weight like four or five pounds. You got to remember YouTube was just now coming out when I started doing this, so it was still kind of normal to send a DVD or two of your show. So when they got my shock and awe package, they would get two DVDs of two different shows, and two different audio-recorded sessions of me doing hypnotherapy. So right away, four CDs come in. That\u2019s four packages, four jewels for people that remember the cases that they went in. And then with that, I would have my promo pack and bio, and so there\u2019s another 8 pages and 14 pages, so now you\u2019ve got 22 pages. I would have the sales letter and I would have a three-page proposal\u2014the proposal mainly had the show, but then had extra options, whether they wanted to buy like, recordings or have me do private sessions. And most of them never booked it, but it makes you look professional.<\/p>\n<p>The thing that really made the sales letter work was although I had a template sales letter, I would go in and personalize a couple details. I would personalize it to the size of their audience, I would personalize it to the type of speaker and where I\u2019d be performing, and I feel that had a really powerful impact, because people would go and they\u2019d read it, and they\u2019d say, okay, this kid took ten minutes at least and made this fit to our needs. And I\u2019m sure there were people that thought I\u2019d handwritten it for them every time, but they at least saw that I went to the trouble of fitting what they wanted to their circumstance. And I feel for me, that was the most powerful point of the sales letter. But getting back before the shock and awe package, and kind of to the whole heart of copywriting and getting work, the thing that really sold me, was I was good on the phone.<\/p>\n<p>So by the time they\u2019d asked me for a package, in my mind, I\u2019d already succeeded. The package was merely the confirmation for the sales call.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So you were hypnotizing people on the phone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> (laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hum.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I can imagine that a lot of copywriters listening, though, would think well, that\u2019s easy because Jesse\u2019s a hypnotist or he can send some of his magic shows on a disc\u2014I don\u2019t have that, so my package wouldn\u2019t be successful. What would you say that they should include instead?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Okay, so if you\u2019re actually going to mail a package to somebody and you\u2019re not going to cold email it, you have two different situations. You have a cold situation, you have a warm situation. Let\u2019s talk about warm situations, because that\u2019s like, congruent to what we\u2019re talking about now.<\/p>\n<p>So client, for some reason, wants a direct response package from you through the mail. Okay. What I do is a couple things. First, is I would break down your projects that you\u2019re most proud of and print them out in a way that\u2019s congruent with them being able to read it. And obviously, this\u2019ll be confusing because how it appears on a website or a sales page will be different than how it appears in a Google Doc, but that\u2019s to your favor, because you can format that doc, then take that information, highlight the points that are relevant to them\u2014because when you\u2019re sending people stuff, you don\u2019t want to convince them to hire you off your copy, you want to convince them to hire you because you can employ strategy for any type of project. That\u2019s the key, I feel\u2014making the strategy congruent to what they want to accomplish. So you would include a couple projects like that, you would highlight it, and then you would have a separate piece where you numbered these highlighted points and explain, this is the strategy I used here, and I feel that it\u2019s important for what you\u2019re trying to accomplish. We could do something similar by applying this type of thinking to your project in this way. So you\u2019re showing that you\u2019ve actually thought about their project, you\u2019re showing that you\u2019ve thought about how to employ strategy, and you\u2019re showing that you can think laterally, which are important skills that employers look for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, Jesse, I really love the point that people are going to hire you for strategy, for your ideas, for your brain, rather than just the actual copy. That\u2019s a really good point. What would you say it takes for the cold contacts? Cold emails? Because we have a lot of copywriters in our accelerator program who are in the process of doing that and it\u2019s frustrating! A lot of them are cold emailing, not necessarily sending these shock and awe packages, but can you just share a little bit about like, what it really takes, how much rejection, do you have any stats on like, it takes a hundred emails and maybe you\u2019ll hear back from five people? That might be helpful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, so there\u2019s two ways to do cold emails. There\u2019s a direct cold, where you\u2019re just picking out people that you\u2019d be interested in working with and sending them packages, and then there\u2019s what I call referral cold, where they might not\u2019ve worked with you but you\u2019re kind of in the same areas online and so they might not know you but they would recognize your name if it showed up. For me, I don\u2019t do that much cold emailing anymore just because\u2014and I\u2019m sure a lot of your guests have said the same thing\u2014once you have business, business propagates business. But when I was doing the cold emailing, I would get I would say like, a 2 percent response, right? But I was also really targeted. I didn\u2019t send out hundreds of proposals or emails a day; I only wrote people that I was really interested in working with and who I could bring the best possible results.<\/p>\n<p>And I use a different approach. I would just send them a question email first. Everybody else is writing these long, elaborate emails. I wouldn\u2019t waste people\u2019s time\u2014I would just see if I could start the conversation. And that goes back to like, I believe we\u2019re in a conversation economy, but I feel when you send people very large emails with all these different things, explaining I can do this, this is what your website needs, I specialize in this, you\u2019re giving them a very easy reason to say no. So when they\u2014it\u2019s easy for them to say no, they\u2019re going to say no.<\/p>\n<p>When I\u2019ve sent these short emails, I\u2019ve certainly lowered my opportunity of getting responses, but I made it easier for people to respond, for people that I would work with. So it\u2019d just be something simple like, hey, I saw your website has these features to it, I actually specialize in optimizing these features, and there\u2019s a couple things we could do to make it better. If you\u2019re interested in making your website convert more, or getting more qualified leads, not necessarily more leads in general, why don\u2019t you give me a call? We can talk about it and I can send you some examples. And I know like, all the cold emailing people are going to freak out that, oh, you shouldn\u2019t do that! It worked for me, though! I got a ton of clients doing this and I saved a lot of time. But I was also really specific. So I wasn\u2019t going out and sending like, I said, 100 emails a day. I\u2019d spend ten times as much time researching people to help than I would sending emails. So that\u2019s kind of like the big thing that I did that worked well for me. But yeah, I\u2019d say I had a 2% response rate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I think one of the biggest mistakes people make when cold emailing or cold snail mailing is they ask for something that\u2019s difficult, and like you\u2019re saying\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>\u2026if you can say something as simple as, can I send you a few ideas? It\u2019s very easy for somebody to say yes\u2014there\u2019s no skin in the game. You can at least start that conversation to the point where you can build trust and create a project.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>And one thing I would add to that, which is a really great strategy, is keep is short, keep it simple, to get that first response. Get their permission to respond to them, and then that next email, don\u2019t actually send them anything related to what you say\u2014find a way to connect with them on a personal level really quickly. Even if it\u2019s something generic. And send it to them before you send the ideas. Because this is really an interesting idea that I love. But when you make yourself a human, you all of a sudden identify and you stand out.<\/p>\n<p>These businesses get hundreds of emails every day, these people get hundreds of emails, so you just kind of get lost in the glut. If you can do something that makes you a human and something they relate to on an emotional or mental level, every time they see your name, it\u2019s going to trigger something. And they might not open it\u2014they might ignore you\u2014but you\u2019ve increased the opportunity to get yes. So what I would do is if I couldn\u2019t find something related to their state, which I usually could because I\u2019ve traveled the country, I would pick the nearest national park to them and say hey, you\u2019re really close to X national park! I\u2019m a huge national park guy\u2014I\u2019ve been wanting to get that pin. Have you been? And I know it seems unprofessional, but that\u2019s the idea. You\u2019re trying to remove them from the professional, I\u2019m a boss, I have a mindset, I have to filter everything this way, and make them a human. Because when you\u2019re a human-to-human communicating, it becomes easier to make suggestions and people are more responsive to ideas.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>That is a great, great suggestion. So you mentioned a conversation economy\u2014I would love to hear more about that. What is that to you and how do we need to think about that as copywriters?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Okay, so long pitch made short, Seth Godin said that we\u2019re in a gig economy. And I don\u2019t entirely agree. I think we\u2019re in a conversation economy. My belief is that people that can start and hold the best conversations are going to get the biggest contracts and the best clients. And the reason for that is, all of the way people approach job courts today makes the whole freelancing experience transactional, which is a huge mistake. Freelancing is not transactional. It is service-related. We are in a service business. We are not in a transactional business. We aren\u2019t fixing tires, we aren\u2019t providing a doodad or a widget. We are providing an experience and part of that experience is a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I learned a long time ago, when I was doing these sales calls, the thing that got me sold wasn\u2019t my exemplary service or my 100 testimonials or my best price. What got me sold was, especially when I was doing say, after or project grads, which are events that parents would book for kids at the end of their high school year. It was always moms, and the thing that got me booked was, and this was knowing how to have a conversation with them, was when they called, I\u2019d say this, I\u2019d go, \u201cOh my gosh. Is this your first graduation? Are your kids leaving the house?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> And it\u2019s funny\u2014notice that Kira laughed, but not Rob\u2014because every woman recognizes that and they\u2019re going to want to talk about their kid! So right away, people are like, talking about their kid and they\u2019re relating to me, and we haven\u2019t even talked about the show. But because I started that conversation, I took control of the element\u2014I took control of the relationship.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I was just laughing because I was thinking, wow, you really work it! That\u2019s good!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m laughing inside. <em>(snickers)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Rob doesn\u2019t laugh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Yeah, so when you can control the conversation or you move in a direction that makes you relatable, you can shift how people perceive you. You can lift the barriers that people have. And does this work all the time? Obviously not. It\u2019s still a number\u2019s game. And I think that\u2019s the biggest issue people have with this freelancing\u2014it\u2019s just numbers. You have to be good. You have to have the systems in place. You have to create a business like a business and all the common sense stuff, but it\u2019s hard! It\u2019s a numbers game. It\u2019s what I liken to a supermarket. When you go to the supermarket, there\u2019s 10,000 items. You leave with 50. Does that mean the other 9,950 items are bad and not worth it? No! They\u2019re just relevant to you. And if you can take that mindset and apply it to your freelancing business, you\u2019ll never get upset or worried because you\u2019re just going to understand that you\u2019re not right for those people at that right moment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah there\u2019s a huge difference between <em>refusal, <\/em>and <em>rejection<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And, a lot of times, people refuse to work with us because either they don\u2019t understand the value of what we\u2019re offering, or the time isn\u2019t right, and too many of us as freelancers respond to a refusal as if it\u2019s rejection&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Ahh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> &#8230;as if it\u2019s personal and people don\u2019t like us or don\u2019t want to work with us, and if so, why would we ever want to reach out to them again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>One thing that really drives me crazy is people don\u2019t understand too, it\u2019s like, you can be a great copywriter, but it doesn\u2019t mean your tone and style is a fit for a project. And that\u2019s one thing that has increased responses to my proposals, is I\u2019ll write to people like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s talk!\u201d Like, just because we talk doesn\u2019t mean we\u2019re going to work together, because I understand that I\u2019m a great copywriter, but I might not be a great copywriter for your project, and the easiest way for us to figure that out quickly is just for us to talk. And people are like right away like, okay, boom\u2014no pressure sales, I\u2019m in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I like that, and now that you mentioned sales and your process, I\u2019m really interested in hearing how you are selling them. Like, let\u2019s talk about your first conversation with them. Is it really laid back? Do you have certain questions you\u2019re asking? Or&#8230; what does that look like, so that it is laid back, and then you can also lead them into a proposal&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>&#8230;and make sure you\u2019re going to land that proposal; it\u2019s not totally off, or out of budget.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So, on our first phone call, I usually like to figure out what their project is. So I have a lot of notes before I enter into it, and I have an idea of what they want to accomplish; I kind of have an idea of how they can accomplish it, and I have different layers that we can accomplish it at different time frames depending on how much they want to spend. So they get on the phone; the first thing we do is just spend the first minute, minute and a half, talking, you know: \u201cOh hey, how are you?\u201d \u201cOh, we\u2019re doing great. How\u2019s life been on your side?\u201d \u201cGreat.\u201d \u201cYeah, it\u2019s been crazy here&#8230;\u201d and you know, find something to relate to. So, that way you just ease them into conversation. And it sounds so simple and people are like, \u201cWhy are you saying this?\u201d But this probably the most important part, because you\u2019re not starting people cold.<\/p>\n<p>People do this all the time; they go directly into the sales pitch or directly into the call, and it\u2019s really uncomfortable, and people have a hard time getting their footing. So if you transition people naturally from a conversation into the proposal talk as far as the call is concerned, it makes it easier for the person to be more responsive, because they\u2019re relaxed. So once I\u2019ve done that, I have a questionnaire, and the questionnaire is essentially\u2014it\u2019s the same in the sense that I need the same information every time from the client, but it\u2019s personalize to their project. So I just got done pitching\u2014I don\u2019t want to give you his name but\u2014he\u2019s a really big sales consultant for building materials and sales, and he\u2019s brought me on as his full-time copywriter, essentially, and I\u2019m kind of like his best friend now, as far as his freelancer.<\/p>\n<p>But when we got on our first call, I figured out low, okay\u2014what does he actually want to accomplish? Like, does he want more clients? Or, does he want to make more money? If he wants to make more money, does he want to funnel people to the thing that\u2019s making them money, or get them into the tip of the funnel as speakers? And so I figured out what he wants to accomplish based on our first contact. And then when I get on the phone, I started asking him these really targeted questions about, you know, what are you specifically trying to accomplish here? Do you have a long-term goal, or is this something that you want to solve right now? If this is something that you want to solve right now, what\u2019s been the problem that hasn\u2019t, you know, let you solve this yet? And so, but the time we got off the phone, I had already asked him all these super-relative questions to what he\u2019s doing, and I showed that I thought about his project and his issue from a lot of different perspectives. Now, I didn\u2019t come up with this on my own. Pretty much everything that I do is a high-bred that I built up over the years from Ramit Sethi\u2014a pre-talk he did with Paul Jarvis on Creative Live. He calls this method the briefcase technique, and the whole idea is just showing up more prepared than they are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, this is a really big idea. I think a lot of copywriters, you know, hear \u201cHey, I need website copy\u201d, and so, they immediately are thinking \u201cOkay, to deliver his website copy, I need to work on that\u201d, rather than take a step back and say, why do you need website copy? What is the business challenge that we\u2019re trying to solve with website copy? Because\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> \u2026in the end, it may actually not be website copy that they need to actually solve the problem. Maybe they need to take a step back and look at the channels where traffic is coming from, or maybe it\u2019s even a step father down the funnel to the sales process and working with the internal team. That\u2019s not necessarily something that most copywriters want to do, but thinking about businesses strategically, is a <em>huge<\/em> mind-shift for a lot of\u2014a lot of writers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hmm. Plus, you\u2019re doing a level of responsibility to the client that makes you stand out. Everybody else would be going for the sell, but if you\u2019re going for the <em>solution<\/em>, people will remember that. They may not hire you right then because your solution won\u2019t be congruent to what they really need, or as far as the copy is concerned, but when copy does come back up right away, they\u2019re going to be like, \u201cI need to that person because they were on-spot, they <em>knew <\/em>the solu\u2014they\u2019re going to have the solution I want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, so all this stuff relates to, some of the success that you\u2019ve had on Upwork. We\u2019ve talked to a few copywriters on the podcast who have used Upwork successfully, although I think, the general sense with most copywriters is that it\u2019s really hard to do well. So, people like Paige Poutiainen, who we interviewed recently\u2014we\u2019ve talked to Danny Margulies, they talk about how to have success. You\u2019ve had some of that success; what did you do differently that most people don\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> First off, I want to say like, I really love Upwork. I don\u2019t really use it as my main income source anymore; it was a great place to start. I mostly do Upwork now so my audience had a forward-facing evidence of what I do, so they can see that I\u2014you know, like, I\u2019m actually freelancing and I\u2019m not just doing everything privately. But, for me the thing that really made Upwork resonate is\u2014I have three things that work. One, I have a profile that is relevant to a very specific thing. And if you guys go to my profile, you can see exactly what I have written, and exactly who I serve. So when people see my profile, right away they\u2019re going to know I\u2019m for them, or I\u2019m not for them. And this is important because it saves me time. A lot of people are going to hear that and go, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t want to turn people away&#8230;\u201d <em>Yes you do<\/em>. You want to turn away 95% of people that come your way simply because you don\u2019t want to waste your time with people that you can\u2019t get the best possible results for. And I forget who wrote it on CopyBlogger, but they said this really great thing that I love: they said if you are getting 50% or more \u201cyes\u201ds on your project proposals, you\u2019re either trying to help too many people, or you\u2019re not charging enough. And I agree with that completely.<\/p>\n<p>You should hear \u201cno\u201d a lot because your price should be right at the people\u2019s comfort limits, and you should be right at the, like limit of their solutions too, which is really important, so my profile solves that for me. The second thing is proposals. And I still do this today\u2014when I send a proposal, I look for somebody, a) that has a project that I would want to work on that\u2019s large. I\u2019m not getting on projects and doing things for $100 here or $200 there. Or, if I am, I\u2019m taking a gamble because I recognize that it could transition into a larger project, but that comes from being able to read social cues, understand the nature of those businesses, etc. So when I send a proposal, I\u2019ve identified that, okay, you know\u2014it\u2019s going to be $2000, it\u2019s going to be $5000, it\u2019s going to be a week\u2019s worth of work \u00a0because they\u2019re going to need x, they\u2019re going to need y, they\u2019re going to need z. So I send the proposal and I say \u201cHey, you know\u201d&#8230;and this is where we get back to the conversation economy thing, is I send a proposal to open a conversation. I don\u2019t tell them I\u2019m going to do this, this, and this, and it\u2019ll cost you this. I think that\u2019s a waste of time.<\/p>\n<p>What I do is tell them \u201cLook: I\u2019m an expert in this thing that you want. I\u2019ve accomplished this, I did this way. I think this would work for what you\u2019re trying to accomplish. Why don\u2019t we talk? I\u2019d like to review your project more, see if what I do would resonate with want you want to accomplish, and in doing so, we can see if I can make what you want to happen, happen. And that\u2019s it. I\u2019ll send a testimonial or two, and I\u2019ll clarify the results they want, but other than that, that\u2019s all I send. And, people right away, they\u2019re\u2014boom. They want to talk to you. And, I\u2019m usually&#8230;I\u2019d say ninety-nine times out of a hundred, I am the most expensive copywriter they\u2019ll hire, and I\u2019m usually the most expensive copywriter they\u2019ll hire by at least a 200% price hike. So most people average out in between $50 and $65; I\u2019m at $125. In January I\u2019m going up to $250 an hour.<\/p>\n<p>So, people when they respond to me, they know what to expect, they understand the limitations, and they also know I\u2019m not trying to sell them; I\u2019m just trying to see if I can bring them the results they want, and so it makes it easy for them to respond to me. And then the third thing that really works for my on Upwork is when they do respond to me, I really take the time to see if I can help them. And, I know it sounds kind of holistic, but it\u2019s really important to only work with people that you can help. And you would be surprised at how\u2014and this is a weird thing\u2014you\u2019d be surprised how upset people get when they\u2019ve responded to you, and you tell them that you\u2019re not the right fit. Because, if they respond to you, they\u2019re emotionally, mentally, and physically invested time in you, and there\u2019s a good chance they\u2019re going to hire you. But you when tell them \u201cHey, you know, I honestly just don\u2019t think that what you would be paying me would be worth the outcome I can create for you.\u201d And, doing those three things has lead me to booking tons of ongoing projects, getting a couple people that move with me off of work to become very large ongoing projects, and I even booked a\u2014when I first turned down a $6000 project as the least qualified and most expensive freelancer they had talked to, simply because I use this process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, I want to say that you know, whether or not you\u2019re a fan of Upwork, because again, it could be great for a lot of copywriters, maybe not so great for other copywriters, I don\u2019t have experience in Upwork. I think what stands out to me, and what you show, is that it\u2019s this portfolio piece that you really\u2014I mean, you have your score. I think you\u2019re a 90% rating; you\u2019re one of the top rated professionals on Upwork. It shows how much you\u2019ve earned on Upwork: 40K&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Which is weird, because I\u2019ve actually earned like\u2014I think like 95K, but it just doesn\u2019t update.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>(Laughs.)<\/em> Yeah, but even so, 40K is really impressive, so when I look at that, if I didn\u2019t know you at all Jesse, and I just saw that, I\u2019d say \u201cWow, this is someone who really knows what he\u2019s doing, and I want to hire <em>him<\/em>, even if I want to hire you beyond the walls of Upwork.\u201d So, as far as a portfolio piece, I think it\u2019s outstanding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>If someone\u2019s listening who is new to copywriting, and they\u2019re just trying to get their first new clients, what advice would you give them for navigating Upwork, and those early days so that it works for them\u2014they can be one of the success stories like you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>I would think it goes back to lateral strategy implementation. And what I mean by that is, when you talk to a client, and you don\u2019t have, say, a specific portfolio piece because you\u2019re starting out or you\u2019re transitioning into something new, or it\u2019s a stretch beyond what you normally do, what you do it, you include a portfolio piece that you <em>do<\/em> have, and you explain why that project\u2014although it isn\u2019t directly related to what they want for their project\u2014still applies. Because the strategies that you used to make that successful would apply in their project, and then you explain why that strategy would work.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re doing two things when you do this: first, you\u2019re increasing all the value out of your existing portfolio without having to take on a bunch of extra cheap work to, like, fluff it. But the other side if, you\u2019re showing the client that you can think outside of just writing copy. You\u2019re showing that you\u2019re a strategist; you\u2019re a consultant; you\u2019re a thought-reader; that you understand implementation. And those are really powerful, because here\u2019s the truth: like, anybody can write copy. But very few people can implore strategy. And people really want strategy. They don\u2019t want copy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Jesse, I want to change directions a little bit: you\u2019ve been working on, or you\u2014or you recently had an online summit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Mmm hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>And I\u2019m curious really about what goes into creating it. Everything from, you know, the tools you used, to setting up interviews, to the launch plan. Can you walk us through what you\u2019re doing, and how you\u2019re getting it done?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Okay. First thing I want to say is everybody should do a summit. Even if you don\u2019t have an audience, or you\u2019re not going to make money on it. It is the easiest way to expand your professional network, and do so in a way that provides value to people that you want to grow with. Perfect example is this podcast. Both you guys were on my summit. And because of that, we developed a deeper relationship than we had on the Facebook group. Same thing\u2019s true with a bunch of other people that are on the summit. So, even if you don\u2019t have an audience or you don\u2019t want to make money with it, you guys should do it. With that said, the process I used was, I decided first what I wanted to accomplish. Now, I have a blog, and I wanted to draw more readers to the blog; I wanted to have more subscribers. So I took my existing blog concept, and I expanded it to fit one particular niche. It\u2019s the idea of writing proposals to get your booked, so you can book your schedule full. And, I started searching out for, like, successful freelancers online and specifically, the summit really covers either social media marketers or people in the freelance writing world whether it\u2019s SEO, content, copywriting, because that was something I really have a lot of experience in, and I can speak to.<\/p>\n<p>So, I reached a bunch of people; I came up with a list of about a 150 people. And once I had that list, I researched everybody on the list to see who was actually doing it, and that goes back to what I was talking about earlier with Upwork. Just because you have a forward-facing website that says you\u2019re successful doesn\u2019t necessarily mean that it\u2019s true. I have to be able to go in and say, \u201cOkay, you know, are you doing work? You have projects? Like if I speak to you, are you actually going to be saying things that like resonate from experience, or are you just rehashing what you\u2019ve read on other articles on like CopyHackers, which although it\u2019s a great website, I don\u2019t necessarily somebody to tell me what Joanna Wiebe said pretending that they were the ones to say it first. And once I had a list of people narrowed from 150 down to about 40, I just starting contacting them, and what I did specifically was, I started from a place of power. I\u2019ve been blogging for three years; I have a pretty good audience, I have some networks. And, I reached out to the people in the networks first. Some people I didn\u2019t reach out to to get them to get them to talk with me, but I reached out with them to do conversational gambits for us. So I\u2019d say \u201cHey, I\u2019m doing this really cool summit. I know this isn\u2019t what you\u2019re doing, but you\u2019ve talked to these other people\u2014could you give me some introductions?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019ve cold emailed some people too; great example that is James Johnson. He is a really cool guy, and he happened to catch me at a certain time and we got together. Another person that I got on the summit that I absolutely just fell in love with was Natalie McGuire; I caught her randomly, and what\u2019s really funny is I caught her because, for like a week or two, so tried one of those chat features on her website, and I spoke to her directly through it, but that\u2019s a random aside. So, I started building up the list of speakers. I originally had 30, but people fell off because of personal things or schedule conflicts\u2014so once I had that secured, I then built up the site. I used Thrive Architect, because I used Rainmaker, and I didn\u2019t have a lot of experience with WordPress; I didn\u2019t want to spend a lot of time learning it. Thrive Architect really cut my time down, and they have a lot of things that I would use as far as either widgets or social implications, like they\u2019ve got countdown timers, they\u2019ve got great landing pages, it integrates easily with ConvertKit, Mailchimp, and all the other integrations to like Thrive Cart Teachable, etc. For my private site, I\u2019m using Teachable; Teachable\u2019s super easy to use.<\/p>\n<p>I bought a more expensive version because I got a little bit of an affiliate deal from somebody. So instead of paying for a full year, I\u2019m paying for a part of the year and so it makes up the difference for the cost. I\u2019m hosting my videos on Vimeo because it allows me to make them private. I learned that; I learned Teachable; I learned WordPress; I learned Thrive Architect; I learned Thrive Cart. And, these are the things that allowed me to create an integrative process that\u2019s seamless for the user. Now, I did this for two reasons. The first reason I told you. I\u2019m going to build my audience. I\u2019m going to be selling online courses and training and coaching, and I wanted to have a larger audience so I can start engaging and getting information about what they want specifically, create courses to create a side income that\u2019ll allow me to have something that\u2019s in perpetuity. But the other thing that I wanted to do was be able to take something very high ticket to copywriting customers so I can say to them hey, I know how to launch a summit because I\u2019ve done product launches, I\u2019ve done Kickstarter launches, I\u2019ve done live event launches. But this is something different entirely because it is a huge, all-inclusive package. You need copy, you need outreach, you need strategy, you need market growth, and I have it all now because I\u2019ve done this. So I can go to a client and say hey, we should do a summit. It might take four months and it might cost you $25,000 or $45,000, but this is what you can accomplish. This is what I\u2019ve accomplished. This is what I did. Here\u2019s my data. And all of a sudden it\u2019s like woah. So that\u2019s kind of the reason, two fold, why I put together the summit. Those are the systems I use. That\u2019s the reason I use the systems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I want to know you know, the nitty-gritty real-talk\u2014what has surprised you the most you know, or even aggravated you the most\u2014it can be positive and negative\u2014about the whole experience&#8230; what it really takes to put on a summit, because clearly it\u2019s a lot of work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Oh my God. So I did a blog post on my blog\u2014it was a big 2,000 word piece and it was all about how, for the last 14 weeks, I\u2019ve worked seventy hours a week, every week, because I was doing the summit and my copywriting job at the same time. And I want to make a point before I get into this: I didn\u2019t go into this not knowing that was going to happen. I had planned for this and I had built things in, so it wasn\u2019t just this random like, oh, Jesse\u2019s just going to go and work until his fingers fall off. Like I had planned this all out.<\/p>\n<p>But to me, the two biggest issues is WordPress, like\u2014I know a lot of people love WordPress. As a guy that\u2019s used to having packages that are complete where you don\u2019t have to seek things out and integrate and Zap them, it\u2019s childish to me how unstructured it is. And I use it and it\u2019s fine, but it\u2019s incredibly frustrating because there\u2019s so many small details and unless you\u2019re really dug into it, a normal person can\u2019t do well without help. And I feel that\u2019s bad design. It\u2019s the same thing with cars, or anything like\u2014if I can\u2019t go in as a normal person and make things work on average, it\u2019s not built well. It\u2019s too complicated. And I feel that way about WordPress. So I was really thankful to get Thrive Architect. But one thing that really frustrated me was, I forget was Thrive was, I think it was Thrive Builder? But I had Thrive Builder, and then they transitioned to Thrive Architect. So literally, my whole site, I build it all, paid for these templates, and boom. It exploded. Nothing worked. So I had to go back in and do it all again and to me, that was the most frustrating thing.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, it\u2019s a lot of work, just the normal details. If you were to look at my entire swipe copy file, I figure I\u2019ve probably written 25\u201430 thousand words of copy, whether it\u2019s sales pages, emails, blog posts, guest posts, promotions, ads; and that doesn\u2019t even count for like, I wrote a 10,000 word Profit Playbook for people to buy the all-access pass\u2014I wrote five bonus e-books that probably come out to another 15,000 worth of words that you get when you have the all-access pass so it was just, it was a slop. It was a ton of work. It was working every morning, I would get up at 530, and I would work till probably 700 at night. And it was hard, but it was worth it. The other thing that upset me that I was very cool about was people constantly rescheduling times.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em> I think I did that, didn\u2019t I?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, but at least you like, called me ahead of time. A lot of people did it the day of. And that really sucked, but at the same time, I couldn\u2019t complain because people who are very high-ticket people\u2014Ryan Robertson, Lianna Patch, Natalie MacGuire\u2014people that are making a quarter of a million dollars a year were giving me their time for free, so I understood and I was very calm about it and I didn\u2019t let it get to me. but it was upsetting, because you have to set aside time, so although I have like an hour and fifteen minutes set aside for podcasts, I obviously had more time set aside for that because I had to show up early, I had to set everything up, and that was kind of the other thing that really was troublesome\u2014just the amount of time it took to do the interviews. I have 23 interviews, which comes out to a little under 23 hours of time, and whew! Man. That\u2019s just a lot of time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s a lot. So how are you packaging it as far as, what are you charging and what do people get? I\u2019m asking because someone may want to package their summit a similar way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>The one I did for my summit was, I wanted to have a minimum of 20 hours of video and when I say video, like, it\u2019s pretty much just a conversation that was an interview, where you come in, you have a couple of really great ideas that you would like that person you\u2019re talking with to share; along with that, I had e-books and a Profit Playbook and I\u2019m doing a mastermind Facebook group. So I have kind of like a quadruple hit.<\/p>\n<p>They have the 20 hours of content, and along with the 20 hours of content, they get a Profit Playbook where you recap all that content and you take the \u201cbest of\u201d and it\u2019s kind of like giving minutes\u2014so if somebody doesn\u2019t want to sit through all 20 hours because it might not all be relevant to them, they can use the Profit Playbook and say, okay, I want to listen to these four talks. Perfect. And then the same thing with the e-books. I have e-books that touch on every level of skillset, whether people are just beginning\u2014maybe they don\u2019t know the right way to ask for testimonials, to people that want to know the exact tactics and outlines to use when I create six figure sales letters and I\u2019ve created multiple ones that I\u2019ve given as examples. And then along with that, I have a Facebook group.<\/p>\n<p>The reason I have a Facebook group, and this is more for personal, but it\u2019d be something to consider\u2014I want to funnel people into a coaching system, take the information from my coaching and then build an online course so they can sell in evergreen format. Because of that, the Facebook group\u2014which I\u2019m going to get the masses to\u2014allows me to do four coaching calls with interested people. I can record their questions and then do a whole bunch of follow-up with them by helping them and in that follow-up, figure out exactly what they\u2019re trying to accomplish, just like you try to figure out exactly what a client wants, and then I can build out the coaching service like that. So that\u2019s kind of the main outline.<\/p>\n<p>As far as delivery goes, the summit happens two ways. Live attendance is free, so you schedule your WordPress with\u2014I have a redirector that I can\u2019t remember the name of off the top of my head\u2014but each talk opens up 10 minutes before its scheduled time. So you can go on the page and you can watch it 10 minutes before, and then at the end of that talk, at that period of time, you can\u2019t see it anymore and the next talk opens. And then that\u2019s it. The free thing only happens once. So it\u2019s not up for a week and they can watch it all. They\u2019ve got one period to catch it and then if they don\u2019t, they have to buy the all access pass. And that\u2019s kind of the idea\u2014you want people to buy the all access pass because you\u2019re funneling out people that are going to be specific customers going forward. And then when they buy the all access pass, everything is parked indefinitely for an entire year on Teachable, along with all the bonuses that I just told about.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Jesse, I\u2019m curious\u2014and you might want to be very careful in answering this question\u2014who were the two best speakers that you interviewed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Oh man&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong><em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em> I was going to ask the same question but I was going to say, \u201cWho was the BEST one?\u201d <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, there\u2019s a couple of really good ones I know about&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> Well, what\u2019s great is that everybody that you guys suggested was amazing. I\u2019ll say this\u2014the funniest one for me was Natalie McGuire. I had no idea about Natalie before we started, and really, our first conversation in person was about 10 minutes before the summit talk and like, during the summit talk I was just blown away! We have the exact same like, mental philosophy when talking with clients, when teaching people, and pretty much the whole conversation is us agreeing with each other, which I thought was hilarious. Me and yours talk was great because we got to talk about Steve Martin, which is, you know, it was great finding out that you\u2019re a big fan of him and we got to talk about that but we also got to relate a couple of really cool things from the summit about Steve Martin\u2019s career and his approach to copywriting.<\/p>\n<p>Kira, it was great because you dug into my experience as a hypnotist, so we were not only able to talk about something really unique, but were able to take those strategies and apply them. Everybody had something kind of unique. Like, you know, for instance, Justin Blackman. Justin was really cool because we got to talk about deliberate practice, which is something I\u2019m a huge fan of but a lot of people don\u2019t know about, with his headline project. When I talked with Hilary Weiss, she had one of my favorite quotes from the entire summit and I think she lifted this from Joanna, but I still loved it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> (laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, it was a while ago so I\u2019m not 100% on it&#8230; she said, \u201cDon\u2019t charge what you can afford. Charge what it\u2019s worth.\u201d And I remember\u2014like, I still get tingles when I hear it like, it\u2019s so good! You know? Like, you know it, but to hear it put so succinctly&#8230; it\u2019s like that Mark Twain quote: \u201cThe difference between a good word and the right word is the difference between a lightning but and lightning.\u201d Right? And that was one of those moments where it\u2019s like, it gave me the chills. So everybody had something that I really was a favorite of, and I can talk about every single person because it was unique. I made sure we developed the personality and rapport\u2014it wasn\u2019t just me peppering them with the same questions.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s one thing I should say, too; I didn\u2019t mention this: every single person I talked with, although we talked about the same strategies and ideas, each person\u2019s questions were unique. And that was like, a mistake I feel a lot of summits make, is they go in and everybody answers the same questions. And this is kind of why I have a problem with John Lee Dumas\u2019 Entrepreneur on Fire\u2014because, after a while, like, the answers are all the same. And they might have like, one or two shades different, but by tailoring questions that talked about the same strategies but were different and unique to the person, you\u2019re able to supply a unique perspective for multiple people for multiple disciplines. And that was something I was really proud of myself for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And you did a great job making us all feel special. I felt special when I was chatting with you, so it was enjoyable on our end. Jesse, I want to wrap up with final question: and so, you know, you have a really interesting background, again\u2014the first hypnotist, magician on our show who spent a lot of time in direct response. So, to you, does the future of copywriting look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse:<\/strong> I see the future of copywriting for the market growing. As more and more people move businesses online, they\u2019re moving them online with an understanding of the expectations it\u2019s going to take for their business to grow, and they\u2019re doing it with more revenue. It might not necessarily be money that they have saved, but it\u2019s money they\u2019re willing to spend. So the people that are going to succeed, the people that are going to be getting a hold of this money, that\u2019ll be growing with the market\u2014there are going to be people that recognize that at its heart, copywriting\u2019s about providing a service.<\/p>\n<p>One thing that I talk about to a lot of people on the summit is, I don\u2019t work for people. I work with people. When you\u2019re hiring me, you\u2019re not hiring me as an employee. You\u2019re bringing me on as a partner. Your concerns are my concerns. And I feel, with how small business is becoming online, where it\u2019s like 1 or 2 people businesses because of automation, or integration of apps or plug-ins, they\u2019re able to provide very large services to a lot of people. People are going to need consultants. They\u2019re going to need guidance. And as copywriters, you don\u2019t just know how to sell things. You understand implementation, you understand strategy. And I feel like that\u2019s where copywriting will go as this big business, small user kind of market grows. They\u2019re going to need somebody like, with that J. Abraham perspective, like, \u201cI\u2019m a trusted adviser.\u201d I\u2019m not just the person that writes your emails\u2014I am the person that shows up with you once a week and we discuss strategy. We look for market growth. We take chances together. I think that will be ultimately where the market goes. For me, I\u2019m going to become more of a thought-provider. A thought-leader and a consultant, and less the guy sitting there actually writing out the copy at some point. Because I understand\u2014my time and my skills make me more valuable for these. And I\u2019d rather sell something that I can get more results for. And it\u2019s a selfish reason! The more results I create, the better I look. The better I look, the more I can charge, the more results I can create going onward. So I\u2019m ultimately going to position myself and I think this is how the market will go, to be an adviser, to be somebody that clients turn to for results, and not for just, a one-off project.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Good stuff. Yeah, really good stuff!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>That was a great answer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>(laughs)<\/em> Finishing strong!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Jesse, if people are looking to connect with you, the summit is over but if they want to see the replay or to, again, connect with you, where would they be looking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>So you guys should check out my blog\u2014it is Live Gold Rich\u2014I know it\u2019s a goofy name but it\u2019s a solid idea. And you can find me there. I have a great mailing list, check it out\u2014it\u2019ll be right at the top. I have this awesome email sequence. If you want to get access to the summit and it\u2019s not open and you\u2019ve listened to this, just shoot me an email! I\u2019ll open up access, I can open a space for you in Teachable if it\u2019s something you\u2019re interested in. And it\u2019s a pretty great mailing list. I write once or twice a week\u2014I pretty much just share really interesting ideas and strategies for socializing yourself to get more gigs, find better clients, and book larger contracts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Very cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Awesome. Thank you, Jesse, for including us in your summit and also being a part of OUR show!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>Yeah, thank you for coming on and thank you so much for making contacts for me so I can bring on people I didn\u2019t even know existed! I feel it not only enriched my network, but it really brought a lot of value to everybody that\u2019s going to attend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Excellent, thanks, Jesse!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jesse: <\/strong>All right, you guys have a good afternoon!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and hypnotist Jesse Gernigin joins\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk with\u00a0Kira and Rob about his freelance business, creating an online summit, and how knowing how to hypnotize people helps [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[94,3],"class_list":["post-1240","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-jesse-gernigan","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #71: Writing Hypnotic Copy with Jesse Gernigin - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copywriter and hypnotist Jesse Gernigan on the #1 thing that made him a successful hypnotist, how he succeeded at cold emailing, how he found profitable clients on Upwork, and what it takes to assemble an online summit. 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