{"id":1330,"date":"2018-02-22T16:50:35","date_gmt":"2018-02-22T09:50:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1330"},"modified":"2018-10-20T21:58:46","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T14:58:46","slug":"selling-the-best-idea-jon-lamphier","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/selling-the-best-idea-jon-lamphier\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #78: Selling the Best Idea with Jon Lamphier"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Inhouse copywriter Jon Lamphier joins Kira and Rob for the 78th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>. We\u2019ve known Jon for a few years now and really admire his ability to get readers to care about his writing. And he\u2019s a lot of fun to hang out with. We talked with Jon about:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how socializing at a trivia game led to a job as a copywriter<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what it\u2019s like to work as at an agency and his terrifying first days<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0when he first realized that copywriting was what he wanted to do (and that he was good at it)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the kinds of work he took on as an agency copywriter<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he developed the ability to throw out funny one-liners<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he breaks down the creative process to get to the right idea<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what the day-to-day work looks like at an agency<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the dark side of agency life (the knife someone on the first day analogy)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he balances freelance and a regular copywriting day job<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he gets himself into the mindset for coming up with good ideas<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the big career mistake he made on the way to an important pitch<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how a mastermind made him a better writer and agency employee<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what Jon is doing today as an in-house copywriter<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he learned from moving his family to a new city for a new job<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0his two-word advice to writers going through the job search process<\/p>\n<p>We also talked about why he doesn\u2019t limit himself to a single niche, where he sees himself working in sixty years (okay, maybe not sixty years), the books and other resources he loves as a copywriter, and the #1 mistake he sees copywriters making (and the opportunity it presents to those who are ready for it). To hear it all, click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1332\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1330-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC078JL.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC078JL.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC078JL.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC078JL.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1330-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC078JL.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC078JL.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.mcdonalds.com\/us\/en-us.html\">McDonald\u2019s<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.imdb.com\/title\/tt1193138\/\">George Clooney<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\">Copyhackers<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ogilvy.com\/about-david-ogilvy\/\">David Ogilvy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Aaron_Sorkin\">Aaron Sorkin<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/J._R._R._Tolkien\">JRR Tolkien<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.neilgaiman.com\">Neil Gaiman<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/humor-copywriter-lianna-patch\/\">Lianna Patch<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1332 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/02\/Copywriter-Jon-Lamphier.png\" alt=\"Copywriter Jon Lamphier\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/02\/Copywriter-Jon-Lamphier.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/02\/Copywriter-Jon-Lamphier-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/02\/Copywriter-Jon-Lamphier-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 78, as we talk with in-house copywriter Jon Lamphier about how he became a copywriter; the ends and outs of agency life; what he does to stay creative; and how he got so good at writing great headlines.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Jon, welcome!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Hey guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Jon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I can\u2019t believe it\u2019s taken us this long to get you on the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, seriously.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>What? <em>Why?<\/em> You guys have had so many <em>famous<\/em> copywriters on the show, I am the opposite of that!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Maybe not <em>famous<\/em>, but every bit as talented, and certainly a better friend than most of them are to us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> All right, I\u2019ll take&#8230;.I\u2019ll take that. I\u2019ll take that; I appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. So why don\u2019t we start with your story, Jon? How did you end up as a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> All right. Well, I had a past life in another career, but, when I went to a trivia night one night after my wife and I had moved to Greensboro, North Carolina&#8230; Showed up at that trivia night, and made a friend who was actually the host. Told him I thought he did a great job, and we got to talking over a couple of adult beverages, and you know, he started talking about how he was overloaded at work. One thing led to another, and I picked up a freelance gig working for the agency that he was working for; I knocked it out of the park, and sort of fell in and realized that this is what I should\u2019ve been doing all along, so&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So you\u2019re not the kind of guy that grew up wishing to be a copywriter? You weren\u2019t watching Darren Stevens on <em>Bewitched, <\/em>or you know, any&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>No&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>&#8230;.Thinking \u201ccopy\u2019s for me\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> No, I wasn\u2019t. I mean, whether it was, you know, actively knowing it or not, like, I always loved advertising. I just&#8230; when stuff was clearly pointed at me, I could totally tell. And you could tell that I was bored with stuff that wasn\u2019t, and that was fine, but I always loved words. English was a passion for a long time. Not in college, but, just the way that words work and what we can mean and how, you know, one thing can mean something to one person, and then another. That was always there, and, then the clever, sort of conceptual side of it kind of came to life when I got that first freelance gig.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So Jon, what would you doing before you got this freelance gig?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I got worked at McDonald\u2019s for almost ten years. \u00a0I got to do a lot of people managing and training of people; sort of got really got at firing people too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, the \u201cGeorge Clooney\u201d of McDonald\u2019s? What was his role in firing people?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Maybe not <em>that<\/em> big, but you know, just getting people to understand what they had done, and how that was fire-able and how it was just like, hey, it\u2019s nothing personal, it\u2019s just the job, and that was sort of what spawned this mentality of wanting to work with people who were passionate about the same stuff that I was. I know that\u2019s a weird thing to come from McDonald\u2019s and you don\u2019t think about that, but you can tell when people want to work together, or when they\u2019re just in it for themselves. And that was real learning experience from that, that certainly applies to my current line of work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So what was fire-able at that point? I need some stories!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> <em>Laughs. <\/em>I mean, the same thing that\u2019s fire-able everywhere, you know? Not showing up and not doing good work. Those are pretty universal things, and it\u2019s not super-obvious to everyone at whatever stage of life you\u2019re in if you haven\u2019t been taught that lesson that you have to show up and you have to work hard. That\u2019s it; nothing in particular, but if we want to keep it to things that are universally applicable, I mean there\u2019s other stuff about that restaurant industry that people who\u2019ve worked in that will understand, and it\u2019s fast-paced, and you\u2019re on your feet all day. And those are things too that make it hard, but at the same time, you still got to show up and do good work, so&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Making a mental note: show up. Do good work&#8230;yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Yeah, that can be the whole thing! I mean, just&#8230;<em>laughs<\/em>&#8230;it\u2019s hard to always keep that top-of-mind, but it\u2019s certainly what drives me some of the time where it\u2019s just&#8230;.you <em>have<\/em> to go do it, you know. You may not feel like it, but you have to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So let\u2019s talk a little bit about your first agency job, and you told us how you broke in, which, I think a lot of people when they think, \u201cHey, I want to work for an ad agency,\u201d they really struggle to break in. You did it basically by creating a relationship, but what were the early days of that job like, you know? Learning how to be an agency copywriter&#8230;just walk us through the details of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>The first days of that were terrifying. And if they\u2019re not terrifying for you, as somebody who\u2019s never worked at an agency, you\u2019re stronger than I am, but agencies have this reputation for being, you know, this exciting, really fast-paced, lots of stuff going on. I mean, we\u2019ve all seen <em>Mad Men<\/em> and every other representation of an agency atmosphere, and it\u2019s pretty true, I mean, apart from like the philandering and misogyny that\u2019s in <em>Mad Men<\/em>, like a lot of the bureaucracy and the process and having lots of people who are good at different things and not necessarily overlapping? It\u2019s really true. So, it\u2019s an exciting atmosphere; there are super-focused on reputation and making impressions, but it was intense at first, because it is a lot of stuff that gets thrust on you and, again, if you\u2019re not doing the work, it\u2019s easy to just kind of fade into the background.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What type of projects were you working on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>At first I was working on projects that sort of already had a campaign around them, so I would do brochure pieces or, you know, landing pages, or smaller parts of a bigger campaign or bigger look and feel that had kind of already been created. So that was really what sharpened my skills as far as being able to jump in and out of different projects. I mean, that\u2019s one of the huge upsides to working at an agency, and I think the reason a lot of people like the agency environment if you\u2019re&#8230;.you get&#8230;. I mean, I don\u2019t get bored <em>easily<\/em>, but I\u2019ve a pretty low threshold for boredom, and in an agency, you know, you get to work on lots of different types of accounts and get a lot of experience really quickly. You still have to work your butt off, but it\u2019s definitely something where you get to show that you can write for a lot of different forms.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> One of the things that I\u2019ve noticed about you Jon is that you have an ability for the quick turn-up phrase, which seems to be a skill that a lot of agencies like, you know, whether it\u2019s a headline, or a tagline, or just a creative idea. Is that natural? Do you work at that? Like, if I wanted to be more&#8230; develop that skill in me, what could I do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>First, it doesn\u2019t hurt to have a family that\u2019s incredibly quick-witted too, and being the youngest person in that family, you\u2019re always\u2014I mean, I say without, you know, any reservation, I am constantly seeking approval, and that helps sharpen your sword immensely! <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Right, right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I had a grandfather who was hysterically fast, and just an absolute sniper when it came to funny lines and just breaking in at exactly the right time, and my dad and my brother, the same. And my mom, you know, was always quick with an eye-roll at something that was really great, but she just, you know, had heard it so many times before. But that\u2019s a good way to start and if you don\u2019t have that, yes, you definitely have to work at it. All it takes to be good at a quick line, at a small line, at a headline, at something that\u2019s fast and getable, and funny and interesting or whatever your book is going to be&#8230;.you <em>have<\/em> to be able to distill something down to its absolute core, and use as few words as possible, so. That\u2019s how you get to there. You have to just work at taking stuff out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay so, you helped me with my website, actually, my home page and my key message on that just by talking through it with you, you were able to distill it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yup.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What is you creative process look like? You said, you know, just figure out how to distill something down, but that\u2019s kind of hard to take in, like, how can we break down the creative process?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I love that you brought that up, because that\u2019s one of my favorite things. I mean, working one-to-one with somebody like the way that we were doing it where we\u2019re just talking through, you know, who you are and who you want to work with, you know, you\u2019re an audience of one, right? I\u2019m trying to sell to you to sell to other people who you want, and you were really great at being able to say who you wanted to talk to, and that\u2019s essential for that distillation process, right? I mean, if you don\u2019t know exactly who you\u2019re talking to, if you try to treat it as a room full of people instead of just one person that you\u2019re trying to connect with, it\u2019s really hard to get beyond that, but, I do love that \u201cIf you\u2019re a jerk, be a jerk\u201d line that\u2019s in your\u2014<em>laughs\u2014<\/em>I think it\u2019s on your homepage, right? I mean, that\u2019s&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah! Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> &#8230;basically, I mean, you didn\u2019t say it in those words, but that\u2019s what you were saying. You were like, I don\u2019t want people to have to pretend to be someone other than themselves, so that was a really easy get for me. It\u2019s like, what\u2019s the extreme version of that, right? What\u2019s somebody going to get in a heartbeat if they are this particular brand of person that not everyone is going to buy into, that\u2019s fine! Just keep being yourself, and that\u2019s another piece of it, is that genuine character of a quick line that people get and the right person is going to immediately identify with that is meant just for them, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So is this the same process that you use in agency work, or in the work that you\u2019re doing today? Or, is there more to it than that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Well, I mean, there\u2019s more to it&#8230;<em>sigh<\/em>. I mean, it depends on the media too, right? I mean, any piece of advertising, if it\u2019s, you know, if the marketing is a little bit different&#8230;if it\u2019s, you know, a larger content piece, you definitely have to have a little bit larger audience in mind, but anything that\u2019s going to be read by one person at a time, I think you should approach it like that and, much to, you know, the dismay of my current colleagues who are in strategy or in research or whatever, I definitely pester them with \u201cwhy\u201d a lot, because if it\u2019s not the real answer, I just want to keep digging and digging and digging about why somebody needs to hear this and why they\u2019ll care. If you don\u2019t have the answers to those two questions, you\u2019re in trouble.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So can we talk about the creative process at an agency? What is that look like with all the moving parts and different teams in your day-to-day?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Yeah, I know, I know I\u2019ve talked about the upside of working on different projects, but you usually don\u2019t get a lot of time with decision makers, if you aren\u2019t one of them at an agency, so&#8230;that means, you really have to take every opportunity that\u2019s handed to you. So, the creative process for the most part is either, you know, just yourself, or you and one other person really trying to digest a huge amount of information, and that\u2019s not unlike if you were working on your own, but it\u2019s definitely the case where you have a lot more masters. You have a lot more people who are going to ask you about one thing or another, which is great because you can also ask them about stuff, so if you need to somebody who\u2019s in research who does research all the time, you get to have that, usually at your beckon call. But yeah, when it comes to selling it and selling through, it can put up some barriers for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, it seems like it could be an incredible learning experience where you\u2019re almost drinking from the fire hose. But there\u2019s a dark side too, I\u2019m assuming. What are the things that we should be aware of, you know, if we\u2019re thinking, \u201cHey, I want to work in an agency\u201d, you say, \u201cOkay, but think about this too, because you\u2019re giving up x.\u201d What is x?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know; I haven\u2019t really thought about an apt analogy, but the one that comes to my mind is, you know, I\u2019ve heard it movies probably that they say you need to, you know, knife somebody on your first day of prison, so people don\u2019t mess with you. Is that something that you guys have heard before?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Oh yeah, oh yeah. Many wounds from my prison days.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>. I have <em>not<\/em>, but that makes sense!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Right, I know; not that I\u2019ve been in the clink either, but in the case of, you know, just making sure that&#8230;the dark side of it is, if you just get lost in the frey, right? It\u2019s really easy to become vanilla if you just keep doing what people ask you to do. I think that for my approach at the first agency, I knew that I was good at what I did so I kept being that good, hard worker, but I also kept being kind of this loud, sailor-mouthed person, and it worked out because people respected that I was frank, and that I could produce work to back it up. So, the dark side is it\u2019s really easy if you aren\u2019t willing to drink from that fire hose and really take everything and try to learn as fast you can and digest the information that\u2019s given to you. It can be draining, and you can just become wallpaper. Easily. So, don\u2019t let that happen if you want to work at an agency. That\u2019s the way you can at least become the go-to person for something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So, what about freelance? Have you tried freelance throughout your career? If not, why not?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I have done freelance throughout my career. I envy people like the two of you who can do freelance and rely on it, because I just can\u2019t work in a vacuum. It doesn\u2019t work for me. I would do my absolute best work when I bounce back and forth between being really focused and kind of sitting in a room, and putting my nose to the grind stone and doing something really hard, and then coming out of that room and either talking with someone who either knows a little bit, or doesn\u2019t know anything about it and trying to get them to buy into them, and then go back into the room and do it again, and go back and forth with that. Now, it\u2019s really cool to have the mastermind or, you know, a group of people who you can really trust to show your unpolished work. But as a freelancer, you know, all of the other headaches as far as scheduling and just even convincing people that copywriting is worthwhile, that stuff that just drives me bananas, so. I <em>can<\/em> do freelancing, and I will do freelancing with people who kind of take a few boxes for me, but I\u2019m always careful with you I pick to do freelance work with; I\u2019ll say that. <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What\u2019s your favorite kind of work to do? And maybe share an example or two of some of the stuff you\u2019re most proud of.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I love doing broadcast, especially now that that just doesn\u2019t mean just TV. That can be pre-roll, or it can be a longer web video. There\u2019s a lot of leeway; you can do a lot of different things, and it\u2019s definitely the kind of work where if you\u2019re working in this sort of environment of respectful collaboration or, you know, you have a director and a producer and you\u2019ve written a script and you can get into that work, it becomes so much bigger than it is if you start with a really good idea. I did some work for a local bank down in North Carolina that turned out really well because there were really only like four or five people touching it, and it moved through quickly, and it kind of went under the radar, and we skipped over some of the checkpoints of the agency I was at, but it was really rewarding work because we came up with some really good final products and it did good things for the client as well. So, outside of that, there\u2019s still radio, and radio is obviously wonderful because that\u2019s the writer\u2019s medium when it comes to just strictly being about us, but you don\u2019t get that many radio opportunities anymore, at least for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah and it seems like with radio, I mean, there\u2019s just so much <em>bad<\/em> radio. There\u2019s bad <em>everything<\/em>, but&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>There is! <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> &#8230;for whatever reason, like, radio seems to gravitate, or pull in people who just can\u2019t write. Like, it seems like a medium where people can stand out if they really gave it some thought.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> That\u2019s true, and I think it may be that TV is a lot sexier, so people who could write for radio just started writing TV scripts instead. Maybe it\u2019s more yes, you can make a killing in radio if you\u2019re really good at it, but, yeah. There\u2019s also the draw of things that are a little bit more&#8230;I mean larger, conceptually, right, because when you do that video piece, it\u2019s a whole other thing and you got to work with more people, and&#8230;. it\u2019s bigger, that\u2019s all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019d love to know, Jon, when you had a moment where you\u2019re just like, \u201cOh yeah, I\u2019ve got this&#8230;\u201d You know, maybe it was earlier on in your agency career, but you were just like, \u201cThis is what I\u2019m meant to do; I\u2019m <em>so<\/em> good at what we\u2019re doing\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Well, I know we don\u2019t have a seven-second delay or anything on this, so&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I\u2019ll keep some of the blue nature of this out, but that first freelance gig&#8230;.again, like I said, when I realized that it clicked, I came up with&#8230;.it was for a brochure, and the line on the back of that brochure? It was for a trucking company, and they were&#8230;you know, they were a little rough and tumble; they weren\u2019t the drivers themselves, but they were people trying to hire drivers and also explain to people that they had lots of different ways to move their freight around the country, and you know, I had an inkling that this was the kind of crowd that was going to be okay with something a little suggestive, something a little&#8230;.not <em>blue; <\/em>let\u2019s call it, like, \u201clight blue\u201d or \u201csky blue\u201d. But the line on this brochure was just: \u201cYou\u2019d be surprised what we\u2019re packing\u201d. And, read into that, whatever you will&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Like, it just clicked and they loved it so much when it happened. It was such validation that I knew it was the right audience for the right line, and again, it was that distilled kind of thing where I was like, \u201cOkay, I got this.\u201d And that was early on in the process of trying to write for these guys. So that was kind of where I just new, look, I know how to do this, and it doesn\u2019t really matter who the audience is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So Jon, I want to hear how a big part of your work is creating big ideas, and being creative. And it\u2019s really easy as a copywriter, especially when you are on your own, like you said, to just kind of start following formulas, or getting really comfortable with the type of copy you write, and not thinking bigger or really creatively about the work we\u2019re doing. Do you have any tips of exercises, or anything that works for you that really helps you just think different? Other than the collaboration, which you already mentioned that it helps to share ideas with other people and bounce some ideas around.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Yeah I mean, the collaboration thing. Definitely, you know, don\u2019t be the smartest person in the room, if you can avoid it, but if you\u2019re by yourself? I mean, bathe yourself in advertising. Bathe yourself in content; just get into all of it, you know? And, if it\u2019s truly, you know, what you\u2019re passionate about and what\u2019s going to get you going, you\u2019re going to be angry a lot of the time, <em>laugh<\/em>s. But, for me, like, I\u2019ll read bad advertising or listening to bad radio, or just see a bad billboard, and just get fired up about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I mean, I know that that seems weird, but honestly, the fact that I get fired up about stuff like that? I come back to saying like, that\u2019s a good exercise because it means that, you know, I\u2019m overreacting, but, you know, is it&#8230; I forget who said that, or if that\u2019s a common saying, but you know, where you overreact, you know, that\u2019s where your work should be. That\u2019s where you need to find your work. So yeah, go just do that. If you don\u2019t get super-excited when you see something that doesn\u2019t work, or get absolutely blown away when something works perfectly, like, that\u2019s how I sharpen it. And do continuing education too, right? I mean you have to branch out and do something that you\u2019re not comfortable with if you want to grow. So, that\u2019s always going to keep me sharp as a copywriter, and then just, in terms of being creative; just see how other people would do it, right? And if you\u2019re on your own, that\u2019s how you see what other people can do\u2014by looking at their end product.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So we talked about a few of the things that you\u2019re most proud of. Do you have a failure or two that you sort of look back, and kind of cringe and think, \u201cOh man, I wish I\u2019d done something differently with that.\u201d Does that happen very often for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Oh yeah. It doesn\u2019t happen very often anymore, but when I was first starting out, you know, I took that passion and that drive, and there was one particular experience that was not great. I actually got tapped&#8212;It think it was a Thursday or Friday; it was right before the weekend, but we had found out that we were probably going to be going into review for a pretty big account at the agency that I was on. And, the person who was more senior to me, who was working on the account, was unavailable. So I had to jump on a plane to go pitch some new creative to a big client, and on the way there, in the plane, me in the CEO of the company got into a little bit of an argument.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Oh-no!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> OH-no! What?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> On the way to a pitch, yes. So, I mean, again, part of it was just, you know, brazen, passionate, youthful idealism, but the other part was something I really felt strongly about, you know? We had three ideas that we were going to pitch, and I felt really strongly about one, and made my case, and talked to the CEO, and I really thought he was listening, but the end of my spiel, where I really thought I made a good case for it, he said, \u201cWell just remember, it\u2019s not about selling the best idea. We\u2019re here to sell <em>any<\/em> idea.\u201d Which, absolutely just broke my heart, as somebody who\u2019s passionate about it, and I just kind of got into it with him a little bit, and that\u2019s&#8230; Maybe it\u2019s not a copy failure, but it\u2019s a big regret, because the answer to a lot of problems that come up in copy, is that you tried to do what was right instead of what you were asked to do, and that is the dance that all of us have to kind of get into everyday, so, that\u2019s a failure for that I\u2019ll never forget.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>But it\u2019s <em>not<\/em> a failure, because you defending yourself!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Well, the end of the story is, six months later, we lost the account.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> OH! Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> But&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, that&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah. There were other external factors; it wasn\u2019t just because of that. But, it was a failure because I didn\u2019t recognize the audience, because at that moment, I wasn\u2019t pitching to the end consumer anymore. At that moment, I was pitching to both the client and the CEO, and if they weren\u2019t happy, I wasn\u2019t doing my job. So, I know that that\u2019s a slippery slope, and maybe there\u2019ll be a ton of comments about that after the show. But, I definitely feel like that\u2019s a really tough line to walk, and it\u2019s the one I usually end up on the \u201cdoing what\u2019s right\u201d side too often, and that\u2019s when I get in trouble.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>And I think that\u2019s really common in agencies too, though, because there\u2019s sort of competing interests here. One is yeah, you need to create advertising that\u2019s compelling and that\u2019s going to make the client happy, but you also have a business that you\u2019re trying to keep running. You\u2019ve probably got employees dependent on keeping the account. So I get the tension between selling any idea, and selling the right idea. I can understand how that happens. I\u2019m fully on your side, that you still want to do the best thing for the client, but, it\u2019s just a reality at the agency life that there\u2019s this fear of having to go back from a pitch and say to ten people, \u201cYou don\u2019t have a job on Monday.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah. And again, I would even go further: I know you say doing what\u2019s right for the client. I kind of think that a mistake a lot of copywriter make is not thinking about the end consumer versus the client, right? Because the client knows what they want, but it may not be the right thing for the consumer at that point too. So it\u2019s those three layers more than just agency versus client; it\u2019s agency trying to do the right thing for the consumer, because that\u2019s what\u2019s going to make the client more money and make you more money vicariously if you have that set up. So, yeah. It\u2019s an interesting balance for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So Jon, we met you in a mastermind, and got to know you in there. So, I\u2019d love to hear just how that particular mastermind that we were in with Copyhackers&#8230;how that changed your career, because you were one of the few agency people in that mastermind with us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah, I actually got my agency to pay for some of that mastermind, which is always&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh! Nice! <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> &#8230;<em>always<\/em> a good thing when you\u2019re at an agency if you have somebody with continuing the education budget, but, what I noticed right away and the thing that kind of changed my perspective, I got into it because I had read a lot of Copyhackers\u2019 posts, and downloaded some of their free content, and it was something that I was familiar with and had written content before, but I definitely hadn\u2019t touched the CRO side of things, and sort of the more technical side of measurements and that kind of stuff too, and the thing that I noticed immediately when I\u2019m introduced to all of you guys and the rest of the people in it to&#8230;.I was the only one who identified as a \u201cconceptual copywriter\u201d, versus like an online copywriter, or a digital copywriter, or a conversion copywriter, and I don\u2019t know if people were just trying to play to their audience there, and say I\u2019m a conversion copywriter, because that\u2019s what the course was all about&#8230;<em>Laughs&#8230;<\/em>but it did two things for me in terms of how it kept me going forward and changed my career a little bit too, was that it reinforced what I already knew, that you know, I wasn\u2019t alone and this being my calling.<\/p>\n<p>You know, there are other people who have the same mindset, but it also made me appreciate the business side of things a lot more. Like I said before, you know, I hate dealing with the financing and the scheduling and all of that stuff that goes along with being solo, but it gave me this huge volume of new information about how to write content, and how to do landing pages better, and how to make sure email sequences are functioning properly. So, yeah I mean, that changed it because I had that perspective that I could bring back to the agency and talk to the digital people, or talk to the social people, and have a lot better conversation and a lot better end product working with them rather than letting them just talk at me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Well, and after that mastermind, you went to work for Copyhackers for a while. I think all three of us are big fans of Joanna, as well as a lot of people who are in <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em>. What did you learn from that experience in working with Copyhackers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I learned that Joanna is incredible. I love Joanna; I\u2019m jealous that she can be so focused and committed to her brand. Copyhackers <em>is<\/em> Joanna, there is no extricating the two, and she\u2019s fearlessly passionate about what she believes in. So you know, I learned a lot of new things every time I talked with her. I feel really fortunate to to have worked with her, and, you know, her passion, you know, her ability to have a brand and not deviate from it, and create value because of that, you know, was really, really inspiring. And that kind of thing is easy to pass along when you see it first hand like that, and apply it to even bigger brands that aren\u2019t just represented by one person, but, it\u2019s easy to forget how one person can be the brand, and how important that is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, and so, I think often times we wonder, well what does it take to be at that level? Like, the Copyhackers level; the level where Joanna is where she\u2019s speaking on stage, and she performs at this level of excellence in everything that she does, and so many people respect her. But what does it actually take behind the scenes? I\u2019m sure it\u2019s not easy, and she\u2019ll be the first one to say it. So what did you learn from just, kind of observing how she operates and moves through the world?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>She lives a life with a as few distractions as possible, and I\u2019m blown away. Again, her dedication is incredible. Like, everything that she\u2019s doing, she\u2019s trying to make it the most productive thing it can be, and the most in point, and the most Copyhackers it can be. So, again, the thing I learned was about, you know, staying on brand with her. She just didn\u2019t let things distract her, you know? If there was something else could help her and fit in and made sense with her brand, she went for it, you know. She just made partnerships. But, if it <em>didn\u2019t<\/em> make sense, if something wasn\u2019t right, she wasn\u2019t afraid to just put in the extra time and work hard to make sure that it was right. And that sometimes involves, you know, tearing stuff apart that I though was, you know, not too bad! <em>Laughs<\/em>. And that\u2019s fine! That\u2019s what you want. Again, that goes back to not being the smartest person in the room. You know, working for Joanna, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever had a boss who taught as much as Joanna did. And hopefully my other bosses don\u2019t hear that. But, that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong><em> Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We will shall this will <em>all <\/em>of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I totally agree with that, though. I mean just even being in her mastermind, I learned a ton from her and I know she shares it with her books, she shares it in the training she does&#8230;I mean, she\u2019s a class act when it comes to teaching. She knows her stuff, you know. There\u2019s no doubt about it. So Jon, what\u2019s your job look like today? I know you recently took a new job in a new city, but, tell us a little bit about the kind of work that you\u2019re doing now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah, so after a long time of avoiding in-house opportunities like the plague\u2014for the reasons that I kind of explained before, you know, I didn\u2019t want to get bored by just working on one client, but this&#8212;this job that I\u2019m in now, I work for&#8230;it\u2019s called an IDFS, which basically means there\u2019s a hospital system that\u2019s owned by a healthcare insurance company, and they work together to sort of inform each other and make each other better, and I\u2019m a senior copywriter on what they call \u201ctier one\u201d projects, which means it\u2019s usually branding work or, you know, big-idea type of stuff. Sounds like I\u2019m beating my chest, but it\u2019s the kind of stuff where, you know, you\u2019re trying to sell that idea into consumers, because it\u2019s relatively new as far as the concept goes, and it\u2019s really interesting to see how benefits to the consumer manifest from that model. So that\u2019s kind of where I\u2019m at right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wow. So, when you took this job, I believe you moved to a new city&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So what was that like? I mean, even just looking for new jobs in other cities, moving you family, you know&#8230;moving your wife who also had a job. What was that like and what did you learn from that experience?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> It\u2019s the second time I\u2019ve moved to a new city with my wife, but this was the first time with kids, so yeah. Looking for new jobs in different cities? It\u2019s not something I\u2019m scared of, particularly, because I know that there\u2019s other opportunities and stuff like that and I\u2019m still going to be me wherever I go, so that sort of keeps me grounded. But yeah. Again, the reason I picked this job was, they do <em>every<\/em> kind of media you can think, you know, from out-of-home, to traditional advertising, all the way down to having a huge digital department and doing a lot of direct mail and a lot of fun stuff like that, so. But the format that they have for this job that I found too was that they have an in-house agency, and they treat it that way. So that was definitely something I was looking for, but as far as a new city, a lot of that had to do with my kids, too. That\u2019s definitely something to take into account; find out what\u2019s important to you, you know, like, it was an incredible process and the kids were central in doing that, and making the choice that we did to move to where we are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So, a lot of people that we talk to get frustrated when they\u2019re looking for a job, whether they\u2019re looking for projects as a freelancer, or if they\u2019re searching for an in-house, or an agency job, you know and, after making a few pitches, doing a few interviews, they get frustrated and are ready to give up. You went through a bit of a search process yourself. What advice would you give to copywriters who are going through that process? Who want to work as writers, but are maybe that that job is a little elusive, that it\u2019s not as easy to find as they were hoping?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Don\u2019t stop. Keep asking, keep looking. And don\u2019t just blast your credentials out to a bunch of people who you may not actually want to work for in the long run, you know? Like I said, this was a job that I definitely thought was a good fit for me, so I pestered the heck out of, you know, all the people who I had any contact with here, you know I made a contact through another friend, somebody who actually worked there to make sure that I could throw her name onto my application, you know? At the end of the day, a lot of it is that person-to-person connection. So, if that means just, you know, having your LinkedIn game really tight and you know, finding what connection you can reach out to, <em>don\u2019t give up on it<\/em> if you really feel like it\u2019s a good job. Until they say, like, the position has been filled or, \u201cOh my God, please leave me alone\u201d&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em> Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> &#8230;don\u2019t stop! If it\u2019s right and you genuinely feel like it\u2019s the right place where you want to be, you\u2019ll eventually get through that door.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. So you probably have a unique perspective on this, but from observing the people in our mastermind and the other copywriters that you know who are trying to build their business beyond agency life, what do you think holds them back? Is there one mistake that you noticed from afar that you\u2019re like, man, if they could just get this right, so many of you would be more successful in what you\u2019re doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I think it goes back to branding, I mean, I know we already talked about you and Joanna in terms of really knowing who you are and having yourself be the brand. But I feel like if somebody tries either to overreach or be too broad, or you know, not pick something where they can be passionate about it, and I\u2019ll probably end up eating my words because I\u2019m not a huge fan of cornering yourself with a niche, either, but I feel like trying to be more than you are, or trying to overextend yourself and do too much too fast without being able to back it up&#8230; selling yourself to bigger clients is easier when you have more evidence, but you also have to be able to still do it. Even if you don\u2019t have that evidence, you need to have that 1:1 conversation that backs up whatever you\u2019re presenting online so, if there\u2019s any disconnect, or any piece of it that doesn\u2019t feel genuine, I feel like that\u2019s a really hard place to start when you\u2019re on your own.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Talk a little bit more about this idea that you\u2019re not a fan of cornering yourself in the niche. We definitely talk a lot about this at the Copywriter Club, there\u2019s a lot of proponents for niching. There are a few people who stand up and say well, you can still make a great business without a niche&#8230; tell us your view on that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> It\u2019s personal for me, to start with, again. The whole, I want to be able to work on more than one thing and the fact that I\u2019m in-house now, again, is a testament that I\u2019m not totally against finding a niche because all I write about all day is healthcare. But, knowing how to write across different medias is important and I\u2019m a lot more confident in my ability to conquer any job that comes across my desk. I\u2019ve written for SaaS or CBG or medical or hardware or children\u2019s products or cosmetics, or whatever, so if you want to, do it all if you want to be more versatile and valuable to some people&#8230; or don\u2019t do it. Niching is a totally viable business model too. Lots of people that we know, and I\u2019m sure people listening, have niche businesses that they\u2019re super passionate about writing about one subject you know? And they can find that voice and tone that connects really fast, but for me, I think you\u2019re more of a unicorn and more valuable, especially if you\u2019re looking to go into an agency or go into somewhere outside of yourself, you have more value.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So Jon, for you, what does your path look like? I mean, I know there\u2019s no set path and you may not have a plan for the next thirty, forty, fifty, sixty years &#8211;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Sixty?!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Chuckles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wow. Yeah, you\u2019ll be writing for a while.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I hope I\u2019m not. If I\u2019m working for sixty more years, I\u2019ll&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs.<\/em> You never know! So, an in-house copywriter. It\u2019s such a squiggly path, right? To be in-house and possibly freelance. What does that path look like for you right now? Where do you see yourself going as you kind of progress in your career?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I mean, I really do like where I\u2019m at now. And I\u2019m not just saying that because somebody might hear it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>No, no! Not to say you\u2019re going to quit your job tomorrow, but if we were to be in-house, what is that progression, as you grow as a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> For me, wherever I\u2019ve been, the pursuit is always to do meaningful work. And I know that that\u2019s kind of like a broad statement, but it doesn\u2019t matter what I\u2019m working on necessarily, and I think that speaks to the fact that I\u2019ve done a lot of things. As long as there\u2019s purpose behind it, there\u2019s a genuine need for what I\u2019m doing, the person that I\u2019m talking to actually needs it; I know that doesn\u2019t say where I\u2019m going to be in five years, but it\u2019s going to be an absolute determinate of whether I stay or go. The day that something feels like it\u2019s meaningless and I\u2019m just spinning wheels or I\u2019m just doing something because someone told me to, that\u2019s my nightmare. So, if my job becomes that in a year, I might go, but that\u2019s probably not going to happen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We talked a little bit about the value of a mastermind. What about mentors? Are there particular people that you look up to and learn from more than others or even books or resources that you go to that keep your skills fresh?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> David Ogilvy is amazing. If you\u2019re not reading David Ogilvy and you want to be an advertiser, you\u2019re doing yourself a disservice. One of his quotes is, \u201cThe consumer is not an idiot. The consumer is your wife.\u201d And that might be taken the wrong way by some people, but everything that he was about was that deep respect for the person that you\u2019re talking to and that relationship that you have with them and how important that is when you\u2019re writing effective copy. So he\u2019s definitely one from a traditional advertising standpoint. But yeah, I mean, there\u2019s lots of people. I\u2019m sure lots of people would say Aaron Sorkin. If you don\u2019t know, Aaron Sorkin worked in News Room, a couple of other things. But it\u2019s not just that he\u2019s super witty and smart and writes incredibly compelling scripts. What he\u2019s doing is usually most effective when it\u2019s inspiring and it\u2019s focused and it\u2019s people trying to doing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people, right? Usually. And he puts himself in places where he can have smart people talking about things. But that\u2019s that kind of relationship again, where, that\u2019s the drama, that\u2019s the emotion that I would want to create in copy. That sort of treating the person with respect enough to know that you have their best interest in mind. That\u2019s the message you want to get across all the time. You\u2019re trying to help them in a genuine way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Now, Jon, I feel like it\u2019s really easy for us to get stuck in our little bubbles that we\u2019re in. I\u2019m curious\u2014what opportunities do you feel like copywriters might be missing today? Maybe you see a huge need in your marketplace that isn\u2019t being tapped and where copywriters are needed and we\u2019re just not even aware of it. What does that look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I hope I\u2019m not just saying the same thing over and over again, but not thinking about the consumer all the time I feel like gets missed a lot. What I try to do, and the mistakes I see usually stem from people not making sure that when whoever is reading their copy, at the end of reading it, they\u2019re going to be uninvolved still, that\u2019s a problem. That\u2019s the big idea. Everything that i love about great copy stems from that and everything I love about great copy stems from that. So, anywhere that that exists. If you see a website that\u2019s terrible, especially if you\u2019re just starting out, reach out to the people who own that website, especially if you know it\u2019s something you could fix and you could help them be more effective in communicating. That\u2019s an opportunity right there. I don\u2019t necessarily see anywhere that\u2019s lacking copywriters because there\u2019s definitely not a lack of copywriters in the world, but I think quality over quantity is what\u2019s lacking.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah. I don\u2019t know if this is a question but, one of the things that I noticed when I read the copy that you produce is that you have a real ability to get emotional and to really move people and to get to that point where you\u2019re saying&#8230; they care at the end of the email or the advertisement or whatever it is. And one of the things I really admire about what you\u2019ve been able to do with the copy you write.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I appreciate that. That\u2019s an incredible compliment from you. I respect your writing for a lot of the same reasons. Again, we kind of call back to the beginning about writing effective headlines. I\u2019m usually not looking to make somebody cry, or make someone burst out laughing, but you know, those are acceptable responses if it gets somebody engaged, right? It\u2019s your only chance to hook somebody. Especially if you\u2019re talking about emails. Once you get somebody in and once they\u2019re reading what you\u2019ve sent to them, you\u2019re missing an opportunity if you don\u2019t keep going with that. If you don\u2019t keep pulling them along. I\u2019ll probably get in trouble for saying this, too, but I hate when we call ourselves storytellers. I get it; I get that it\u2019s an easy way to describe it, but you know, like, Tolkien is a storyteller. Neil Gaiman is a storyteller. People who pass down mythology are storytellers. We sell products. Or services. We can\u2019t inflate art with advertising. But you can use the same emotion to get at that sale, and make it not feel like it\u2019s overt. Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s an important distinction. So, Jon, if we want to work with you, ever, the same way that you and I jumped on a call and we just had this conversation and bounced ideas around; do you offer any type of service like that to freelance copywriters?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I don\u2019t have product-type services, but I\u2019m happy to talk through whatever with anybody, if somebody really feels like what I\u2019m saying makes sense to them and they want to talk something through, ping me on Twitter, or go through my website; that works too. But no, I don\u2019t have product-type services. I\u2019m genuinely happy to help someone on a 1:1 basis, because that\u2019s the most fulfilling, again, like we talked about with you, or with our good friend Lianna, who, I think has been on your podcast before, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yep!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> We did the same thing with her. It\u2019s just when it clicks, it\u2019s really satisfying, so yeah. I\u2019m all for that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean, you\u2019re not here to pimp your service, but I would say that you\u2019ve got a really unique ability to help tighten a line and really get to the essence of what something is, again&#8230; something I really admire about the way you write, the way you think, and so, if a copywriter has got something that they think is pretty good but they just want a second set of eyes, reach out to Jon, because he may be able to help you tighten it up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Thanks, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> All right, Jon, thank you for your time and your expertise and experience, especially in the agency world. We really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, love it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah, of course! Anytime!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Thanks, Jon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>All right, guys.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity, by Whitest Boy Alive, available on iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Inhouse copywriter Jon Lamphier joins Kira and Rob for the 78th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast. 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