{"id":1380,"date":"2018-03-08T18:54:42","date_gmt":"2018-03-08T11:54:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1380"},"modified":"2018-10-20T22:01:37","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T15:01:37","slug":"sales-skills-copywriting-mike-saul","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/sales-skills-copywriting-mike-saul\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #81: How Sales Skills Improve Your Copywriting with Mike Saul"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>For the 81st episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and marketing specialist, Mike Saul, about copywriting, sales, marketing, and a lot more. Kira first met Mike at a lunch-time gathering of copywriters in New York City and after talking for a little while, realized Mike had a lot of great advice to share with our listeners. In this podcast we talked about:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how a 13-year-old\u2019s newspaper route led to a career in sales and copywriting<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the book that he used to help a client go from a $500K monthly loss in $1 million in monthly revenue<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how his sales experience informs what he does today<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he learned from selling burglar alarms\u2014price is not the most important thing<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the relationship between sales and marketing in what copywriters do<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to write an \u201cair tight\u201d argument for your solution<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to overcome objections on your sales page<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the checklist he uses when he writes sales pages for his clients<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why sales people in California have to leave the house after<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the list of people he has learned sales and copywriting skills from<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0credibility versus believability and which one really matters<\/p>\n<p>Lots of good stuff in this episode. To hear it all, click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4097\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1380-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC081MS.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC081MS.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC081MS.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC081MS.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1380-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC081MS.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC081MS.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.silive.com\"><em>Staton Island Advance<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/mandoweb.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Mandolin Brothers<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.namm.org\/thenammshow\/2018?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">NAM Show<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/marketingfunnelautomation.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Todd Brown<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1440511411\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1440511411&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=88280e7fbe8ea657dbce09a9c1b27352\"><em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em> by Dan Kennedy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.briantracy.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Brian Tracy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ziglar.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Zig Ziglar<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.gibson.com\/Products\/Electric-Guitars\/SG.aspx\">Gibson SG<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.fender.com\/en-US\/electric-guitars\/telecaster\/american-original-60s-telecaster\/0110140800.html#q=telecaster&amp;start=1\">Fender Telecaster<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B01JH4FZCW\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B01JH4FZCW&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=6e0b6e84691b389bae0aa62543efa47f\"><em>Glen Garry Glen Ross<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.mindvalleyinsights.com\/tag\/chris-haddad\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Chris Haddad<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/makepeacetotalpackage.com.s3.amazonaws.com\/CopywritingChecklist.pdf\">Clayton Makepeace\u2019s Checklist<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/how-to-find-big-ideas-joe-schriefer\/\">Joe Schriefer<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bly.com\/new\/index.html?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Bob Bly<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.john-carlton.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">John Carlton<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.northwell.edu\/find-care\/find-a-doctor\/internal-medicine\/dr-robert-lapenna-md-11364490\">Dr. Robert LaPenna<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Better_Call_Saul\">Better Call Saul<\/a><br \/>\nEmail: tinymjs.gmail.com<br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1383 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/03\/Mike-Saul-Sml-2.png\" alt=\"Copywriter Mike Saul\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/03\/Mike-Saul-Sml-2.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/03\/Mike-Saul-Sml-2-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/03\/Mike-Saul-Sml-2-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 81 as we talk with marketing strategist and copywriter Mike Saul about how a newspaper route launched his copywriting career, how preconceived notions affect your success, credibility vs. believability, what baby bottles, Santa Clause, and getting a first date have in common, and the learning resources he likes most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Hey Mike, welcome to the show!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Mike, we\u2019re glad to have you!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Thank you for having me, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So, we want to start with your story, Mike. How did you end up in marketing and direct response copywriting?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> It probably goes back to when I was 12 or 13 years old. I grew up on Staten Island, which is one of the five boroughs of New York City, so about 13 I started playing guitar. And my parents decided that they weren\u2019t going to buy me a really nice guitar so I had to get a job at thirteen and we perish the thought these days, with all these entitled children, including my three. So anyway, I started delivering the newspaper, The Staten Island Advance. And I actually split a route with two brothers. The two brothers each had a route each but they were too big, so the mother split each of their routes and made a third route. It was kind a rent deed route, it wasn\u2019t officially recognized by the Staten Island Advance. So that route got cycled through the neighborhood kids; most of the kids couldn\u2019t do it so I said alright, I\u2019m going to give it a shot. I had twenty one stops on my route. And I started delivering the paper and anybody I wasn\u2019t delivering to on my route, I would knock on the door, ask if they wanted it, and I started selling.<\/p>\n<p>So, I built the route up to 41 people from 21. Now, why 41? Because I was warned by my friend\u2019s mom, that, if you add one more house, we\u2019re going to split the route again, so I said okay, well, that\u2019s great&#8230; really good for getting rewarded for all my efforts, right? And at that point, I really knew what bureaucracy was all about so that\u2019s how I got started in selling. I was just knocking on doors and trying to sell the Staten Island Advance on delivery.<\/p>\n<p>From there, I went to a high end guitar shop, which close about a year ago, year and a half ago, when the founder actually passed away and I was selling high end guitars on Staten Island at a place called Mandolin Brothers when I was 14 and 15 years old. And when the owner and the head sales guy would go to the NAM show, in California, I was actually running the showroom by myself. So, that\u2019s how I got my chops in sales. Now, how does that move into marketing? Well, a lot of times you\u2019ll hear people say, okay, you know, copywriting is salesmanship in print. Now, I don\u2019t agree with that. I take Todd Brown\u2019s approach, which is \u201ccopywriting is really marketing in print\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>So anyway, fast forward a while, I had some sales jobs, I sold alarm systems, I sold mausoleums, people were just dying to get in, I liked to say; I sold life-alert, the \u201cI\u2019ve fallen and I can\u2019t get up\u201d guys, which was in-home sales, which is just amazing. Talk about immersing yourself in the training and then actually having to sit and talk to somebody for two hours at a time and compel them to move forward by showing them the benefits and everything. And then from there, I started working online. So that came about 1999. You know, there were other stories.<\/p>\n<p>When I started selling alarms for ADT I went in there and they didn\u2019t know what to do with me because everybody was just sitting around waiting for the phone to ring and I was doing my own marketing at that time and I had no idea what I was doing, but I was knocking on doors, I was sending out letters to new businesses that were opening, I was a commercial sales rep, I was going through existing customers and asking them if they wanted burglar alarms in their home; I had no idea what I was doing.<\/p>\n<p>So then fastforward to the online world, I started out with a financial advisory service. Not a licensed one, so for lack of a better one, a stock-pick service. That\u2019s the best way to put it. And the guy I was working for, he was very aggressive with his marketing; he had turned a little bit of money into a lot a bit of money, so he was telling everybody how he could do it. He decided you know what? I want to do an infomercial. He wound up spending a ton of money on an infomercial and was getting destroyed. He was on a pace to be completely destroyed &#8211; to lost millions of dollars. So, we sat down one day, he asked me if I could help. \u201cYou did sales for a long time, could you help?\u201d and I said okay, you know, sure. And I sat down and I got <em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em> by Dan Kennedy who was my first copywriting mentor, I guess we could call it, with that book, and I read through it and I said geez, a lot of this looks familiar in the ways I learn how to sell. People like Bryan Tracy and Zig Zigler, those are the people I learned how to sell from. And I sat down with the infomercial script and we rewrote it. I wasn\u2019t a great writer, I\u2019m still not a great writer by any means. We rewrote it, I put in the pieces of persuasion that I feel would help, and we turned it around. We went from losing about $500,000 a month to eventually doing over a million dollars a month. And it wasn\u2019t all profit, of course, there was a big media spend in there and a lot of that money came on the back-end. So I was not a partner in that business, which was stupid of me, I had an option of being a partner. Who knows if he would\u2019ve really came through with giving me what I was supposed to get anyway&#8230; but that\u2019s another story for another podcast, right? <em>The Bitter Resentment Podcast<\/em>, right? Not <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That\u2019s the next one we\u2019re going to start. <em>The Resentment Podcast<\/em> is on the list, for sure. <em>(laughs)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> So, I don\u2019t know, but instead, I continued to be an employee there. I did a couple more things there, that relationship ended, and then I really immersed myself into marketing. And becoming a copywriter. And really focusing on three niches. The quote on quote stock pick-niche, I don\u2019t like to call it the advisory niche because you know, real advisers are licensed and it\u2019s much different; that copy is much different; there\u2019s a lot of heavy regulations there. I know there are a lot of regulations in all copy to follow, so it\u2019s more like the stock pick niche or the financial market niche whether it\u2019s binary options or forex or futures or whatever it is, so not just stocks. And then I got into the B2B niche, specifically with software and services. And that was another big pivot for me, because when you\u2019re marketing B2B, even though I believe marketing is marketing is marketing, there are definitely some idiosyncrasies and some quirks with the B2B market.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Mike, tons to unpack there; I\u2019ve got pictures of you sitting in a boiler room, I\u2019ve got pictures of you sitting on your bike, you know, going house to house. So, let\u2019s talk about sales for a minute, because I think a lot of people jumping into copywriting without a sales background have to learn how to do that through copy or whatever. You were doing this at thirteen! Is there something about your personality that made you naturally gifted at sales, or did you have to learn the skill and starting out that young, what are some of the first lessons that you learned as you were going door to door selling newspapers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, motivation is a big thing, right? I wanted a Gibson guitar, or a Fender guitar. I wound up getting both: a Fender Telecaster and a Gibson SG, because you know you have to have both. And if you don\u2019t play guitar, you have no idea what that is. But, that was my motivation back then; all I cared about was my mother bought me a guitar. It was a starter guitar, and I wanted something better, and she was like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m not buying you a $400 guitar. Now granted, for those of you who are playing guitar now or just starting to play guitar, you\u2019ll <em>wish<\/em> you could\u2019ve gotten a Gibson SG for only $400 right? But that was the low-line Gibson back then. It was like a 70\u2019s used SG, and she was like&#8230; You know, $400 back in\u2014I don\u2019t know, when I was thirteen, boy, was \u201882, \u201883, so\u2014she was like, \u201cYeah, there\u2019s no way I\u2019m buying you a $400 guitar; you\u2019ve only been playing a year, and you know, I know eventually you\u2019re going to be good and you can afford to buy a guitar,\u201d which is her nice way of saying, \u201cYou suck right now, I\u2019m not buying you a $400 guitar.\u201d Which I did, and I played for fifteen years; when I stopped playing, I still sucked, so I mean you know, it\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p>But anyway&#8230; But I owned a lot of guitars for the years. So I think that, at thirteen years old, and I think the lesson, if you want the lesson, is I think I didn\u2019t know <em>not<\/em> to do it. I didn\u2019t know not to go knock on doors and ask people if they would like a subscription to the Staten Island Advance since I\u2019m walking by their house anyway, everyday delivering it. And I mean everyday; I mean they printed 360\u2014well, almost 365\u2014so I\u2019m always walking by your house anyway, why not drop a paper there? And I think that translates into basically everything in life, right? Or, especially in sales in marketing.<\/p>\n<p>Like, what really hinders new marketers, new copywriters, new salesman, whatever, is the experience of others. It hinders them, because they tell you, \u201cWell you can\u2019t do that,\u201d or \u201cYou can\u2019t write that; you can\u2019t send a letter without a headline.\u201d Or, \u201cWait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is this? You know, what is this structure? Where is the big promise? Where is the big idea?\u201d And I\u2019m not against all that, right? I\u2019m not against the big idea, I\u2019m not against the big promise\u2014I\u2019m not against all that, right? But it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, well you can\u2019t do that,\u201d or, \u201cOh no, the leads are <em>horrible<\/em> here,\u201d right? Just watch <em>Glengary Glen Ross <\/em>the other night for like the 800<sup>th<\/sup> time, right? A great salesman. \u201cOh, the leads are terrible; the leads are terrible.\u201d Okay, it\u2019s the leads, right? It\u2019s not <em>you<\/em>, it\u2019s not the fact that, you know, you have preconceived notions, or any of that, right? Which is <em>exactly <\/em>what it is, right? It\u2019s never the leads, it\u2019s you; it\u2019s you and it\u2019s you getting influenced by other people.<\/p>\n<p>For example, the place that I have just ended my contract with\u2014I\u2019ve been there for three years\u2014and when I get there, I was brought in as a sales and marketing consultant. So I went in there and I talked to one of the guys about, you know, how he gets into the decision makers, how he calls these people and, his big answer was, \u201cYou know, I don\u2019t even call anymore, because even the voicemails now are saying don\u2019t leave a message and, you know, I don\u2019t even bother calling anymore; I don\u2019t even bother calling anymore.\u201d And that\u2019s great. And, about a month later, they hired a salesman who has technology experience; he\u2019s not a total rube; he\u2019s, I think he\u2019s in his fifties, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>But anyway, he\u2019s had some success in the past. They brought him in, and they found out that the biggest merger in history was going on. And this guy was like, okay, I need to get into this account. And he sat there everyday, and called, and called, and called, and called, and called, and called, and called, and wrote emails, and invited them to webinars, and guess what? He got the deal; the biggest deal in the company\u2019s history. The biggest merger in <em>corporate<\/em> history? Why? Because he wasn\u2019t\u2014I mean, he had to be biased, because he obviously had experience, and I\u2019m not saying the other guy was a jerk for saying \u201cI can\u2019t make calls\u201d or anything. It was just his preconceived notion. This guy was like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m just going to keep calling \u2018til I get somebody.\u201d And he did.<\/p>\n<p>Now that\u2019s a positive preconceived notion, right, that I\u2019m just going to keep calling \u2018til I find somebody, but if instead he had listened to the \u201cOh col- calling doesn\u2019t work and you can\u2019t call people anymore because they don\u2019t even have their voicemails on,\u201d and \u201cNobody reads email and it goes right to spam,\u201d <em>that\u2019s<\/em> what gets you in the most trouble. So that\u2019s, in my opinion, the biggest lesson, and <em>every<\/em> single day, I have to struggle with it, everybody in my opinion has to struggle with this, with the preconceived notions, with experience, with experience from what other people tell you. It\u2019s very, very difficult, and you have to sometimes move straight forward and not care what anyone else is saying, or throwing your preconceived notions to the wayside. I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s, in my opinion, the biggest thing, and the biggest thing when I\u2019m thirteen, which is nobody told me not to do, <em>until they told me to stop<\/em>, right? Which&#8230;another story, but anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. So I want to skip backwards a little bit, and ask you about selling burglar alarms.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What did you learn from that experience, a business lesson that you took away from that experience?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, I didn\u2019t just sell burglar; when I worked for ADT, I started selling just burglar. The little $99 package. And then I wound up selling access control and cameras\u2014CCTV. And this was back when you still used these VCRS, which&#8230; Kira, I think I know how old you are, I don\u2019t know how old you are Rob, but, I&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m <em>much <\/em>older than Kira, much much older. I remember VCRs really well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Okay, so you know what a VCR is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I remember VCRs! I remember VCRs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Right, so you used to use video cameras with VCRs, not with all the digital stuff now, but anyways. So, the biggest lesson that I learned is that price is not the only factor in making a decision, because we were definitely not the low-price solution, okay? Slowman\u2019s was fairly new at the time; they came out and they were giving it away for free. We were not giving it away for free. Every time we tried to do a promotion to give it away for free, our sales actually went down. So, they stopped giving it away for free. So I think the biggest lesson is, it\u2019s not always determined on how much it costs, right? You have to make sure that you\u2019re argument on why someone should choose you over anyone else, including the option of no one at all, because a lot of times they\u2019d go in and they\u2019d say, \u201cWell I don\u2019t really need an alarm,\u201d you have to make sure that argument is air-tight, alright?<\/p>\n<p>Like Todd Brown likes to say\u2014and I know I\u2019m going back to the well with him, because he\u2019s one of my biggest influences, but you know, you have to be like a prosecutor: you have to have an air-tight argument. And \u201carguments\u201d are also a bad word, you never want to argue with a customer or anything like that, but you just have to show them the immense value that you have, and how you would basically be&#8230; it\u2019s a no-brainer, right? \u201cI just can\u2019t believe you don\u2019t see the value in this.\u201d And I\u2019ll never forget: I was out in California, working with the top Life Alert guy out there. Again, the \u201cI\u2019ve fallen and I can\u2019t get up\u201d guy, right? And, the guy who ran that company\u2014I think he still runs it, his name\u2019s Issac\u2014he was a door-to-door salesman, he started in Israel; he says that he\u2019s knocked on every door in Israel seven times, right? And he came up through direct marketing. He did the Craftmatic Bed, he did the Contour Chair, and all that, and then he found the Life Alert.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, so the top guy out there is a former, I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s still there, but he\u2019s a former Israeli air force pilot, and I\u2019ll never forget, I went out with him. I wanted to do some sits with him, because I wanted to see what his techniques were. And he sat there, and you know, he gave his pitch, and when the prospect would say \u201cno\u201d, he would look at them say go, \u201c<em>Why?<\/em>\u201d like it was the most confusing thing he\u2019s ever heard, that they told him no, right? And he was asking why like, basically saying, \u201cAre you crazy not to go ahead with this?\u201d And that was really eye-opening for me. That kind of changed my entire way of selling, and I went right from Life Alert to ADT, and like I said, they didn\u2019t know what to do with me. I came in and broke all records; they weren\u2019t giving me leads in the beginning. I was generating all my leads and they just couldn\u2019t understand how I was doing it.<\/p>\n<p>Now of course, the other big lesson, the other big business lesson is as soon as I got put into lead rotation, what happened? I got complacent; I got comfortable; and I kind of just glided through, because I was closing probably&#8230;at one streak, I remember, for at least three months every appointment I went out on, I closed. But remember, these were people who were calling in. They already knew what we offered, so I\u2019m not bragging like I\u2019m such a high-end closer to do that, right? Most of these people knew what they were getting, so it\u2019s a lot easier when they know what they\u2019re getting. So that\u2019s my biggest business lesson, and you know now, I\u2019m forty-nine\u2014I\u2019m going to be forty-nine years old in eleven days\u2014so, you know, looking back on those days when I was younger, didn\u2019t have a family, I didn\u2019t have any real responsibilities, it\u2019s a lot easier to be aggressive and just not give a crap, right? The more the responsibilities weigh on you, the more you have to be responsible for other peoples, right? You have to support other people. It tends to be a lot harder to stay that hungry, and that aggressive, in my opinion. I don\u2019t know, maybe I\u2019m wrong. I\u2019ve been wrong a few times in my life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I want to sort of follow that train of thought, you know when you\u2019re talking about the airtight argument as to why somebody should choose you. I\u2019ve heard a lot of copywriters say\u2014and this seems to be getting more common, maybe it\u2019s been more common all along\u2014that a product should be good enough to sale itself, and that sales techniques are old-fashioned, or maybe we should be doing less of making those kinds of arguments and building that into the product. What do you say to that kind of argument? Did you agree? Disagree?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah, I absolutely agree. Again, you know, got to give Todd Brown the credit for this, but he\u2019s the one who first opened my eyes about it, but marketing has to be the main focus, right? Sales is just the obvious end to a strong marketing sequence, right? So, what it is is, I have to talk about you. I have to talk about your problems. I have to talk about how much they hurt, and how much they\u2019re going to get worse, and how you\u2019ve tried other things, and it just doesn\u2019t work. And, I finally found something that <em>is<\/em> going to work, and here it is. And you shouldn\u2019t have to sell that hard <em>or<\/em> in the case of like a B2B sales, and I was marketing high-end stuff, like high-end software licenses, talking in the, you know, between software services in the multiple seven and sometimes eight figures, okay? So, there has to be a sale there, alright?<\/p>\n<p>You can\u2019t just go in to somebody and say \u201cHey, you know, you\u2019re having problems moving your data from one ERP to the other, and if you don\u2019t do it, you\u2019re not going to be able to get your reports on time.\u201d \u201cOkay, where do I sign the three million dollar contract?\u201d It doesn\u2019t work that way, okay? So, yeah, there is a big part of that is marketing, and showing them that, you know, their staff is not going to be able to handle it, you know. And I\u2019m just using B2B as an example; it\u2019s with everything, right? But, there still has to be a selling component of why your product is the solution. And that\u2019s the airtight argument, is, \u201cOkay, I understand my problem. I understand that <em>you<\/em> understand my problem,\u201d which is extremely important, right, because, if&#8230;what\u2019s the famous saying&#8230;.if you can describe their problem better than they can, they believe that you have the solution. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>But there\u2019s still the next part of that, which is, okay you have the solution, this is the product; you still have to tell me <em>why<\/em> this product is going to be different than every other thing I have tried. Or, that I\u2019m thinking of trying, right? That\u2019s another thing. Some people haven\u2019t tried anything yet, and they\u2019re just going to make a first decision. So I hope that answers your question Rob. I don\u2019t know if it does, but&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>It definitely does. I like the idea, and especially the idea of marketing in print, as opposed to salesmanship in print, and as all this translate into copywriting, I\u2019m through, okay, yeah; you got to be able to communicate this stuff really concisely in a really smart way on a sales page because there\u2019s no back and forth conversation. And so, it becomes even more critical that you nail that kind of stuff in order to work as a copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Right, I mean because with sales, it\u2019s okay, you know, get your objection book ready, and get ready to count all of the objections: \u201cI want to think about it\u201d, \u201cI want to talk to the dog-walker\u201d, \u201cI want to&#8230;.\u201d, you know, \u201cI can\u2019t afford it\u201d, and you know, \u201cI\u2019ll get back to you\u201d and all that stuff. That\u2019s great, but, what do you do if all you\u2019re giving them is a video-sales letter or a sales page and there\u2019s\u2014-like you said\u2014there\u2019s no back and forth? You really have to overcome those objections right there, and the way you do that, right\u2014so a lot of people say, \u201cJust write out all the objections, and then weave them into your copy.\u201d I mean, I don\u2019t know how you weave in \u201cI have to ask my wife about it.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n<p>What Twain said, right, is: \u201cThere\u2019s two reasons somebody buys something. The real reason, and the reason they tell their wife.\u201d Right? So with B2B, I always said it\u2019s two reasons that people buy it: the real reason, and the reason they tell their <em>board of directors<\/em>, right? So, it\u2019s the same thing; that\u2019s their wife, right? Or their spouse I should said. And that\u2019s the truth, right? People buy things and then they have to say things and justify why they bought it, so when their wife says why did you just spend $1,000 on a new laptop, or why did you do this, you know, you bought because it has the new 5.1 Bluetooth\u2014which is a dumb reason to spend $1,000 on a laptop\u2014but, you know, you have to tell your wife: \u201cIt\u2019s because, you know, this is going to get me more jobs,\u201d or whatever it is. So, there has to be the logical part in the sales copy as well as the emotional part, right?<\/p>\n<p>A lot of people just say, just focus on the emotions, focus on the emotions. And when you get a guy like Chris Haddad, right? He\u2019s just all emotion. And, very tough to argue with his results; very tough to argue with his awesomeness, right? But he\u2019s all emotional. Like, you watch his stuff, and it\u2019s all emotional stuff right? Maybe there\u2019s a bit of logic in there, but most of the time, it\u2019s just emotional. Maybe he\u2019s so good that he weaves the logic in but you don\u2019t even notice it. But for most other people, there has to be a logical argument as well, right? It has to be emotional and then it has to be the logical part of it also that they feel good about themselves. And that\u2019s what brings down buyer\u2019s remorse, right?<\/p>\n<p>In sales, we call it the button-up. So after you sale something, and you close them, and you get them to put their name on the paper, you have to now button-up the sale. You have to reinforce so that it was a great decision; everything that you see a lot of the top copywriters do, right after they buy, you know: \u201cYou\u2019ve made a great decision\u201d, \u201cwelcome to the family\u201d, \u201cwelcome to the club\u201d, whatever it is\u2014\u201cthis is what you can expect\u201d, all that stuff\u2014that transfer very well from sales into copywriting and intro marketing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So, I\u2019m wondering&#8230;I\u2019m working on a sales page now, and I\u2019m trying to build my own argument, and overcome objections. Do you have a resource of a checklist, or something you\u2019ve created or someone else has created that you run through before you feel like, completed, like, it\u2019s good, it\u2019s a rock-solid argument, you can hand over to a client?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s a really great question. And I used Clayton Makepeace\u2019s checklist&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>I got in one of his courses. I don\u2019t know if you know who Clayton is, he\u2019s kind of like a new guy. He\u2019s a new guy on the scene.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> I think he\u2019s been doing it forty days? Oh no, <em>forty years<\/em>. That\u2019s it, it\u2019s forty years, not forty days. But anyways, I use Clayton\u2019s checklist, and I have a couple others, and one of them I\u2019m embarrassed to say I don\u2019t even know who wrote, but it was a pretty good checklist, and I like to go through it. As far as the objection handling and the argument handling, I like to do a process that Joe Schiefer has taught some people called copyboarding. Have you heard of it? Have you had Joe on the podcast yet?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah! He\u2019s come on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, yep. We actually didn\u2019t talk in depth with Joe about copyboarding, although he did talk about that process of objection handling. But yeah, we\u2019ve had him on the podcast. Super smart guy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Right. And again now, I\u2019m not taking anything away from him because he is awesome, but, as far as listing out all the objections, I mean that\u2019s something I\u2019ve been doing for years. He just has a really great process to do it. So I\u2019m\u2014please, I\u2019m not saying, \u201cHey that\u2019s no big deal\u201d. I mean, you know, let\u2019s be honest, okay? Nothing\u2014as much as people want to say it is, right?\u2014nothing is new here, okay? Everything has been done: scientific advertising; my life in advertising; and even before that, the people like Joe Kennedy and all these other old copywriters, I mean, it\u2019s all just gotten faster and more technology-savvy, but in the end, the principles are still the principles, right?<\/p>\n<p>The first thing I always did was list out every single reason why they were going to say no, and what you had to say to counter that. Mostly, face-to-face, right? I used to do that with sales more than not, and I was trained that way. I would love to sit there and say, \u201cWell I invented this, and&#8230;\u201d well of course I didn\u2019t. I was trained by some really hardcore salesman, you know, face-to-face door-to-door people that sold everything from, like I said, mausoleums and&#8230; I\u2019ll never forget the guy that, when I worked at the mausoleum space, he sat there and, his\u2014like I said, motivation is a really strong thing, right?\u2014and he said he came in, and the owner of the mausoleum, he had him over his house, and he had a beautiful, gorgeous house, with beautiful marble floors, yay you know, whatever it\u2014anyway. And, the guy looked at him right in the eye and said, \u201cThe script I\u2019m going to give you built this house.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Okay, meaning that the script\u2014just follow the script. Go sit with people, and sell them, and this is what built this house. I didn\u2019t get lucky, I wasn\u2019t left money, blah blah blah. I had a piece of land at Woodbridge, New Jersey, and we turned it into a cemetery, and built some mausoleums, and this script is what sells the spaces in there. And, you know, that\u2019s what it really comes down to, is just following what works. And, one of the things that I was taught, was, this is what they\u2019re going to say. You know, we know they\u2019re going to say this. This is how you have to counter it.<\/p>\n<p>Same thing for Life Alert too, right? It was the same thing with\u2014and, Life Alert was, when you left the house, you were <em>done<\/em>, right? If you left the house and the next day they called up and said, \u201cOh, that Mike, he\u2019s such a nice guy, I want to buy the unit from him, can you send him back?\u201d The would say, \u201cNo, we\u2019ll take your order over the phone\u201d, and you did not get the credit. If you were left the house, you were done. It was a <em>real <\/em>one-call close, okay? So, you had to do everything you could before you left that house to get that sale, or you just wasted a couple of hours. And I think I told you that story Kira, right, of how Life Alert is the reason why you\u2019re limited to how long you can stay in a house in California? So I\u2019ll tell you Rob, just the quick story and for everybody else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Good story. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> So, there is a limit on how long you can sit in a consumer\u2019s house. At least in California\u2014it may be across the country, but this was in the \u201890\u2019s that this happened. So anyway, what happened is some guy goes onto an appointment, and he spends six hours with an elderly woman, selling her on Life Alert. And by the way, I don\u2019t think Life Alert is a scam in any way, alright? I think Life Alert has saved more lives and helped more people than the small fees that it costs helped, right? So, but Carlton or whatever one of the&#8230;another guy you may not have heard of, John Carlton, but I\u2019ll educate you on him too\u2014somebody I believe said that if you really believe your product can help somebody, you should do whatever you can to get them to buy it, right? But anyway, so, the guy spends six hours in the house with the woman, sells the unit. A couple of days later, whatever happens, happens. They call up, and it turns out the woman\u2019s son is like a state attorney general, in California, and was like, \u201cWait, what happened? He was here for how long?\u201d So they actually put in regulation that you could only stay in the house for a certain amount of time, because you know, they didn\u2019t want the elderly or anybody to be taken advantage of. But whatever, that\u2019s the story. Anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So, you\u2019ve mentioned a bunch of people, you\u2019ve even called a couple of them mentors: Dan Kennedy, Clayton Makepeace, you\u2019ve mentioned John Calton, Todd Brown&#8230;so, you\u2019re getting a pretty good list of people you\u2019ve learned from. Are there others who have been mentors to you that we should be adding to our lists, and maybe even a few in the sales space, where can learn more about proper selling techniques, influence as opposed to manipulative sales techniques, those kinds of things that you\u2019ve relied on in your life?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean, it all starts with Kennedy. I love him; he is my all-time favorite. Dan Kennedy, that is. I think he\u2019s the be-all-end-all. I think he\u2019s great, I love his writing style, and I love the way he communicates his message. I think it\u2019s great. And Todd Brown is a very close number two, and again, I like the way he communicates, and I like the way he gets the messaging across. And when I\u2019m talking about the messaging, I\u2019m not only talking about the sales message; I\u2019m also talking about the message of actually showing you what to do, right?<\/p>\n<p>And, so those are my two big ones. Clayton is&#8230;I mean I own a bunch of his courses. He\u2019s great. And, the people that you probably should be listening to that you\u2019re not, I mean, Chris Haddad is ridiculous. You can go on Youtube and look up the Mindvalley talk he gave, it\u2019s two parts. He\u2019s really good. And, there\u2019s just so many others. I mean, as far as people under the radar, like I like Bob Bly; he\u2019s certainly not under the radar, right? But Bob Bly is another one. And he just&#8230;the way he writes is so&#8230; \u201csimple\u201d is not the right word, and \u201cbasic\u201d is not the right word, because he\u2019s a <em>really<\/em> good copywriter, but it just, when you <em>read<\/em> it, it <em>seems<\/em> like he\u2019s writing simple, you know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p>So that in my opinion is the true art that you\u2019re a skilled writer, but the way you write is so simple that anyone can understand it. Like, one of my knocks on Kennedy is, I know I have to have a dictionary handy when I read one of his books, because he\u2019ll throw a couple of words in that I will have <em>no<\/em> idea what they mean. And I\u2019m wondering, does he really use those words, or is he just doing it to show off, or is he just having fun with the thesaurus, you know\u2014is he just having fun with it? Or, does he really use these words in daily life? And the answer is, of course, he doesn\u2019t use some of the words he uses in daily life, right? Bob Bly, when you read his stuff, it\u2019s just like <em>wow<\/em>. And Carl is kind of like that too: like, sometimes he\u2019ll throw words, and I\u2019m like, all right. You know, and I read his stuff, and I keep reading it, because there\u2019s plenty of gold in there and I\u2019m sure I\u2019m missing most of it, but then I\u2019m like, alright, got to look up what this means, and maybe I\u2019m just a dummy. Maybe everybody else will know what the words mean, but I just&#8230;.I don\u2019t know. Anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Mike, I want to shift gears a little bit, and ask you kind of an open-ended question, but I\u2019m curious to hear what you feel like is the missed opportunities for copywriters today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> The missed opportunities for copywriters is absolutely in the B2B market. I think that there is a lot of software technology, solutions, consulting&#8230; these people are woefully underserved. They have a \u201cmy thing is awesome and everybody needs it\u201d. So, it\u2019s going to sell, right? And everybody\u2014I think it\u2019s Schwartz that said, you don\u2019t want to build a better mousetrap; you have to build bigger mice. Right? And, that\u2019s so important in B2B because, what I like to say whenever I sit in front of a client for the first time is, I get it. I know you\u2019re software is the greatest software that does whatever it does&#8230;the world has ever seen, right? But here are millions of this type of software, and these types of products, in <em>patent offices<\/em> all around the world, that died a horrible death, right, that never got off the ground. That nobody ever saw. That nobody ever got to experience. So, these&#8230;they\u2019re just a woefully underserved niche, and they\u2019re a little tougher to deal with than I guess the consumer-driven&#8230;but, I guess it\u2019s all up to the client, right?<\/p>\n<p>I guess everybody\u2019s tough or easy. I don\u2019t want to give any predisposed notions or anything like that, because that\u2019s the one thing like I said earlier which what hurts most people but you know, you have to go in; you have to, you know, really explain to them and compel them to, okay, let\u2019s give this marketing a shot. because a lot of times you\u2019ll hear, \u201cwell we don\u2019t need to do that.\u201d Yeah you do&#8230;yeah you do need to do that, because otherwise, they\u2019re not going to understand it. It\u2019s just one more piece of software and yep, yours is the greatest offer; you have the greatest consultants; you\u2019re the most experienced, you\u2019re the this\u2014a lot of people, like&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>One of the big things that I wanted to talk about that I was thinking of before I got your prep-work in email was the difference between credibility and believability. And, most B2B, they really work on the credibility factor, okay? They don\u2019t work on the believability factor. You know: \u201cWe\u2019ve been in business x number of years\u201d; \u201cthis was designed by these types of engineers\u201d, or whatever it is, and it just doesn\u2019t matter. All right; in the end, value is all that matters. Are you&#8230;you\u2019re exchanging money, even if it\u2019s not your money, even if it\u2019s the company\u2019s money, but you still&#8230; It\u2019s&#8230; And don\u2019t kid yourself, a lot of these big companies, and some of the biggest in the world? These procurement directors and these people in accounts payable? They treat it like it\u2019s their money, okay? We\u2019re talking about millions of dollars and you\u2019d be surprised how they\u2019re like,\u201dWell, I mean, one&#8230;\u201d Again, I\u2019m not going to give away the client, because that would kind of not be cool but, one client I remember, and there were\u2014I don\u2019t know, nine, got to be, let\u2019s see. Eight figures is ten million, right, so they\u2019re&#8230;they\u2019re in the nine-figure area right? And, they were arguing over $150,000. Right? So that\u2019s like, a rounding error to them. And, they were arguing! I mean, it\u2019s crazy. They spend more than that on, probably, bottled water, right, for one of their plants! Right? So I mean it\u2019s&#8230;.and so, you have to really compel the people to make a move. It\u2019s more than just listing a bunch of features and telling everybody how great they are. There has to be believability, right?<\/p>\n<p>Nobody likes to be a guinea pig; nobody likes to be a pioneer, right? What happens to pioneers? They wind up with arrows in their back. So when you\u2019re dealing with these companies, they don\u2019t want to be the first ones to do something. Even if you\u2019re giving it to them for free. I was at a conference in September in Detroit, and I sat in at a round table. And one of the big moves in the ERP space now is going to SAPS for HANA. So it was a round table with a bunch of people that are struggling to get the assessment done to see if their company is, you know, what it would take their company to get to S for HANA. And a lot of these people, one of these guys in particular I remember, he did a lot of talking. He was like, \u201cWell I\u2019ve gotten quotes for assessment for everything from $65,000 to $485,000.\u201d And he said, \u201cAnd I\u2019m not going with the $65,000 choice, because you get what you pay for. But is 285 too much?\u201d So, these kinds of arguments go on in B2B just like they go in with Kira and her husband right, like you know, should we buy the sofa for $1,800, or should we buy the sofa that has a bed in it so the in-laws can stay in, or whoever\u2014when Mike comes over, he can stay on the sleeper sofa, or should we buy that for 2,100; it is really worth the $300 more, right? And, these are the same arguments that go on. Right\u2014value is value.<\/p>\n<p>So, back to the original question. B2B is an underserved niche, and if you\u2019re really good at explaining how to show value, and how to compel people, and how to go up to the believability part rather than just the credibility part, okay, then you\u2019re going to be successful in the B2B space. You\u2019re going to help a lot of those companies do well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Can we go a little deeper on that, Mike? How do you have that conversation with a potential client, when they have, you know, they have their list of features and they\u2019re ready to go to market. How do you spell that out for them so that, you know, you\u2019re really saying, \u201cLook, you\u2019re halfway there, but we got a lot of work to do\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Right. And I use the Dan Kennedy line, which is, why should someone choose you over all the other options out there, including the option of not choosing anyone at all? I want you to give me your argument. I want you to tell me. And, you have to talk advantages to me, and you have to talk benefits to me. Every time you mention a feature, I\u2019m going to hit the buzzer. And I don\u2019t have a real buzzer, but I usually go, \u201cERRHHH\u201d. Which is&#8230; sounds twenty times more obnoxious coming out of me than a real buzzer would.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> I want you to tell me why I should use you. And most people, once they do that exercise, and&#8230; yeah, \u201cOh, it\u2019s oh\u2014that\u2019s so basic.\u201d Yeah, that\u2019s <em>right!<\/em> because that\u2019s exactly what you need, right? Everybody\u2019s looking for the \u201csecret sauce\u201d and, no, no, no. It\u2019s the basics. It\u2019s the blocking and tackling of marketing that is what gets you to the next step. It\u2019s your messaging. It\u2019s what are you saying, right? And, you know, prove it to me. Okay, so now, we\u2019re getting there. You\u2019re showing me the benefit of what your software can do. Okay, <em>prove <\/em>it to me. Who\u2019s used it that has seen this benefit? Or, is this just a benefit that you\u2019re making up? And one of the things that you will be surprised at when you talk to software and solutions based businesses who are full of engineers, is they think that marketing is just guessing, right? Like, you\u2019ve heard a lot of people say, \u201cWell, I hate selling and I hate marketing.\u201d Well, okay. That\u2019s just a preconceived notion right, because you\u2019ve been selling your entire life, right?<\/p>\n<p>You know, at a couple months old, you started crying, so your mom gave you a bottle. Right? That\u2019s a <em>sale<\/em>, okay? It\u2019s a very abrupt, aggressive sale, but it\u2019s still a sale, and you\u2019ve sold yourself all the way up. Yeah, no\u2014\u201cI\u2019ve been a good boy, I really do deserve this whole list from Santa.\u201d Right? More sales. \u201cNo, I\u2019ve been a good boy\u2014I\u2019ve help my brother, and I do my homework on time.\u201d That\u2019s sales, too. And then going up and talking that first girl or boy out on a date, you know? Sales is your entire life! And no business gets done without a sale taking place. I mean that\u2019s just the way it is.<\/p>\n<p>So, it\u2019s in you, and when I go to these B2B firms or these technology firms, and you\u2019re talking to engineers and they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, you know, we don\u2019t like to market.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, do you like <em>eating?<\/em>\u201d Because, how are you going to eat then? How are people going under\u2014and it\u2019s not all the chicanery and tricks and all that. It\u2019s just getting your message out there in a way that somebody says, \u201cOh wow!\u201d You know?<\/p>\n<p>My biggest thing, what I like to tell people, is the first reaction somebody should say is, \u201cWait, what? Wait, wait, what is it you say you can do? Wait you can do that? Okay, tell me more!\u201d Right? Invite the conversation. And it\u2019s just amazing. I went to a few trade shows over my years with this last company, and I walk around and see these other people\u2014they don\u2019t even talk to you! They just stand there and wait for you to come up to their booth and say, \u201cGee, what do <em>you<\/em> do?\u201d Like they just think people are just packing their bags, getting ready to go to these shows, and going, \u201c<em>Gasp<\/em>, I can\u2019t wait to go up to all the booths and ask them what they do!\u201d <em>It\u2019s not going to happen!<\/em> Right? It\u2019s not going to happen.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of these people, right, they think that they\u2019re just going to tackle them for the pen to sign the SOW, right? The Statement of Work, whatever it is, the quote. Okay? That\u2019s what people think! People think that, you know, \u201cWell, we offer the best result in the field, so people should be flocking to us!\u201d That\u2019s not how it works. If they don\u2019t understand what you do, and they don\u2019t understand the value that you bring, well then what\u2019s the point? You know, one of the best lessons\u2014and I forgot who it was, it\u2019s got to be one of them, it\u2019s got to be Makepiece of one of them\u2014but with writing a lot of bullets, because you never know what bullet is going to trigger. Right? You just think, okay, well, you know, just make it three bullets. Nobody likes to read long copy. Well, says who? That\u2019s another big one with B2B\u2014\u201cWell you got to make it shorter. Nobody\u2019s going to sit here and take the time.\u201d And, I always prove them wrong. I always show them no, no, no. If you\u2019re interested, you will continue to read. And I always give them an example, you know I ask them a couple of questions about their life. And, I then can easily find a way to give them an example of how you\u2019ve actually read long copy in your life, right? Maybe not a long sales letter, but maybe research on a medical condition that a loved one has.<\/p>\n<p>Well, guess what? It took you three house to get through it but, it met something to you. And you read it! So, make sure the marketing means something to the person reading, and they\u2019ll continue to read. Anyway, so that\u2019s the conversation I tend to have with them. What\u2019s the value in going\u2014why should I go with you, right? And when they start talking credibility stuff, I start thinking, \u201cYeah, you know I don\u2019t want to hear how long you been in business. I don\u2019t want to hear it.\u201d Like, I also do some small business marketing. Or, I did it more before I got into the B2B, but I would love going to a lawyer, and the lawyer\u2019s saying, \u201cWell you know, I have seventeen years\u2019 experience in Middlesex County Court System.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, great! So that means, based off what you just told me, all I have to do is find eighteen years or more, and they\u2019re better than you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>\u201cWell, not-n-not necessarily!\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cNo, no. That\u2019s <em>exactly<\/em> what you just told me.\u201d Now, I\u2019m not saying credibility isn\u2019t important, right? It\u2019s important. It\u2019s a part of it. But there\u2019d better be believability first. That\u2019s why a lot of the successful personal injury lawyers, what do they lead with? They lead with how much money they\u2019ve recovered for clients. That\u2019s believability! Okay? \u201cI can do this, look at how much money I\u2019ve gotten for clients.\u201d Right? Another quick example: there\u2019s a doctor on Staten Island, okay? His name is Dr. Robert LaPenna. And I will namedrop him because he\u2019s one of my favorite doctors of all time. Okay? Now, now let\u2019s just make some assumptions here, guys. Let\u2019s make assumptions that we all belief in Western doctors, right? So forget about Eastern, like you know, we believe that a doctor is the be-all-end-all, right, we have to make that assumption.<\/p>\n<p>So, when you go to his office, I would go and he would be triple-booked for appointments. <em>Triple-booked.<\/em> Okay? Not double-booked, not s\u2014you know, like, you got a ten o\u2019clock? There are three people waiting at ten o\u2019clock. That\u2019s how freakin\u2019 popular and busy he was. Okay? <em>Is<\/em>. Still is, right? Alright. Now, he has credibility because he is an MD and if I am seeing a Western doctor, that\u2019s all I need right? Okay. But he has believability because he\u2019s so packed with patients. One day I\u2019m fooling around with my insurance carrier and looking up all the doctors and all, so I come across him. And he gives you his education and all that stuff. Now, he was born in America, but he got his medical degree in Mexico. He went to a Mexican medical school. Now, I am not going to sit here and start arguing the difference between Mexican medical schools and American medical schools; I\u2019m just talking about the perception of it, okay? The perception is if an American has to go to Mexico to get his medical degree, he is not as credible as Memet Ahz who got it from Harvard, or someone else who got it from an American university?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, I think so. I think that\u2019s generally true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Credibility-wise, right? Like, credibility-wise, there\u2019s a hit there. But guess what? He\u2019s <em>triple-booked<\/em>. Nobody gives a crap, because when they go there and he sits with you, he is an awesome doctor. And that\u2019s all that matters. And at least he has an MD. That is my best example of credibility versus believability. Because yeah, he has the credibility, he\u2019s an MD, but he went to a Mexican medical school, and I\u2019m <em>sorry<\/em>\u2014no disrespect to the Mexicans, but it\u2019s looked like, you turn your nose down on it. It\u2019s like getting an online law degree like Jimmy McGill, right, in <em>Better Call Saul. <\/em>So it\u2019s the same way, right, it\u2019s looked down upon. But, guess what? He\u2019s licensed\u2014well, it\u2019s a TV show, but\u2014he\u2019s licensed to practice wherever he is, and Dr. LaPenna is licensed to practice in New York State, wherever else he holds a license, right? So that credibility\u2014there\u2019s enough credibility, but the believability that have so many people have been referred to him, but, \u201cOh you got to go <em>see<\/em> him, he\u2019s the best doctor ever.\u201d And they all go to him! And that\u2019s the difference, and it overtakes the credibility part. I don\u2019t know. I hope that explains it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No, that\u2019s incredible. Mike, we are out of time, and this has been fascinating; I\u2019m scribbling notes, because again, I\u2019m working on the sales page now, so I\u2019m just like, I need to completely overhaul the page. I\u2019m curious\u2014do you provide any type of sales page reviews, or coaching services, or anything like that for copywriters?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes I do. I do sales page reviews, and I will sit down and break down copy with anyone who wants to go over it with me. But as you see, I kind of have diarrhea of the mouth, so&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>&#8230;I like to, I like to talk a lot, and I\u2019m extremely opinionated, and I am not shy about giving my opinion because the way I give reviews and the way I give feedback is the way I want to receive it. I\u2019m not asking you to critique something of mine, if I don\u2019t want you to be honest and brutal. So if people can stand that, it\u2019s no problem. All you have to do is get in contact with me. I just have a regular gmail account. I\u2019m putting a site together actually now, now that my contract has ended with this last company. I\u2019m just deciding, do I want to go somewhere else, or do I want to start freelancing full-time, all the time. I\u2019m still making that decision, but you can contact me at <a href=\"mailto:tinymjs@gmail.com\">tinymjs@gmail.com<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And you didn\u2019t say this part, but yes you are opinionated, but you are also extremely knowledgeable, and know your stuff, so I think this is a great service. I will send my sales pages to you, I would <em>love <\/em>for you to tear them apart. So thank you for your time today, and for sharing with us. It\u2019s been a really fascinating interview.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah thanks, Mike. It\u2019s been a pleasure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mike: <\/strong>Okay. Thanks guys, for having me.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity, by Whitest Boy Alive, available on iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our Facebook community, visit <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com.<\/a> We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For the 81st episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and marketing specialist, Mike Saul, about copywriting, sales, marketing, and a lot more. Kira first met [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[106,3],"class_list":["post-1380","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-mike-saul","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #81: How Sales Skills Improve Your Copywriting with Mike Saul - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copywriter Mike Saul talks about the relationship between sales, marketing and copywriting, how a newspaper route led to a career in copywriting, the difference between credibility and believability, writing an air tight argument, and much more. 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