{"id":1455,"date":"2018-04-10T16:08:09","date_gmt":"2018-04-10T09:08:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1455"},"modified":"2018-10-20T22:06:26","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T15:06:26","slug":"a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Our guest for the 87th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is none other than A-list copywriter Paul Martinez. We covered a lot of ground in this one, including how Paul landed a place as Parris Lampropolous\u2019 copy cub (for seven years) and his process for finding ideas that hook the reader so they\u2019ll see his offers. The resources he shares are excellent. Here\u2019s most of what we cover in this episode:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how an English degree and a job in real estate helped him find copywriting<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he did to recover from losing almost everything and how that still impacts how he spends his time today<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he learned from real estate sales and how that\u2019s made him a better writer<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he did to find clients as a new copywriter and the #1 thing that <em>really<\/em>made a difference<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how you get yourself in the right room with the right people<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he learned as a copy cub for one of the world\u2019s best copywriters<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what you can do right now to be a better copywriter (you may not want to do this)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he keeps his copywriting skills sharp today<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how Paul finds big ideas playing around on the internet all day long<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he structures his projects today (and his advice about retainers)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he deals with failures<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a lot of hows and whats\u2014and every one of them is worth the listen. There are also a whole lot of links. To hear this episode in its entirety, click\u00a0the play button below. Or for a full transcript and links to the stuff Paul mentions, scroll down.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_2781\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1455-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC087PM.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC087PM.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC087PM.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC087PM.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1455-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC087PM.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC087PM.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/adwords.google.com\/home\/#?modal_active=none\">Google Adwords<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/parris-lampropoulos-96531630\/\">Parris Lampropolous<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/direct-response-expert-brian-kurtz\/\">Brian Kurtz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/dankennedygkic\/\">Dan Kennedy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.john-carlton.com\/\">John Carlton<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/reliancemarketing.com\/\">Barnaby Kaelin<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.marketingbump.com\/\">Alexi Neocleous<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/jimrutz.wordpress.com\/about\/\">Jim Rutz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1598530461\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1598530461&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=cb180b44de8577161b491cf78a2bd81e\">Raymond Carver<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1891686054\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1891686054&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=bd100ed8de8deea80f0456a6e7478ebf\">Joe Sugarman<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/marketingfunnelautomation.com\">Todd Brown<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.atlasobscura.com\">Atlas Obscura<\/a><br \/>\n<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1594633932\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1594633932&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=2d231301134d82024a86efe9c966e9f3\">How We Got to Now<\/a><br \/>\n<\/em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0767919394\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0767919394&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=82f252d986cd1785ea941aea311c73b4\"><em>At Home by <\/em>Bill Bryson<\/a><br \/>\n<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0143124153\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0143124153&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=542b6558316e45f7571631516dd0ee03\">History of the World in 100 Objects<\/a><br \/>\n<\/em><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1440582157\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1440582157&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=bcc6f556572b69582e67ee11c002ef0f\">Now I Know More<\/a><br \/>\n<\/em><em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0544947258\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0544947258&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=e6883ac4bacfc25c0ea8350ad797348d\">This is Your Brain on Parasites<\/a><br \/>\n<\/em><a href=\"http:\/\/www.makepeacetotalpackage.com\/\">Clayton Makepeace<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/makepeacetotalpackage.com.s3.amazonaws.com\/CopywritingChecklist.pdf\">Clayton\u2019s Sales Page Template<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/theagora.com\">Agora<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.naturecity.com\/\">NatureCity<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.summary.com\/\">Soundview<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.weissresearchissues.com\">Weiss Research<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moneymappress.com\/guru\/mike-ward\/\">Mike Ward<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moneymappress.com\">Money Map Press<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/jeddcanty\/\">Jed Canty<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/bostondharmapunx\">Paul on Facebook<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/PaulMartinezCopywriting.com\">PaulMartinezCopywriting.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1457 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\" alt=\"Copywriter Paul Martinez\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 87, as we talk with copywriter and business owner Paul Martinez about digging deep to turn things around after losing it all, the importance of sales skills in copywriting, emotional hot buttons and what really makes people buy, and what it takes to create successful promotions for companies like Motley Fool, Soundview, and Nature City.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Welcome Paul.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Hey, Paul.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Hi; hi guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>It\u2019s going great; great to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah, we\u2019re stoked to have you here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So Paul, a great place to start is with how you ended up as a copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah, sure, sure. So I began my journey actually in the real estate world. Well, going a little further back, my background is actually I went to school for fiction writing and ending up getting an English degree. I pretty quickly realized that, you know, that really wasn\u2019t going to pay the bills. So I ended up in real estate, and actually discovered that I really liked sales. And I was pretty good at it, I studied it a lot. I got better and better but, there was a problem: that I didn\u2019t know how to generate leads.<\/p>\n<p>And, you know, this was 2000, 2001. Real estate marketing at that point was, believe it or not, still really based around cold calling. Like, literally going through this thing called a \u201ccolds directory\u201d, which was like a phone book, but it has a little diamond next to the people who owned a house. And my broken told me, just like, \u201cCall those people and ask them if they want to sell their house.\u201d And I didn\u2019t that for probably five or six months, <em>chuckles<\/em>, like <em>hours<\/em>a day, and I got nothing from it. And finally one of these other brokers at the office was like, \u201cHey man, you got to send letters. Way better. You know, you spend a few hundred bucks on stamps; you hired some kid from college to pull them up and stuff the envelopes, and boom.\u201d And he showed me kind of the rough way he did it. And so, I instantly started working; I started listing property, making money.<\/p>\n<p>And then I got interested in this, kind of, \u201cHow do I make these letters better?\u201d So I started looking into copywriting. I discovered Dan Kennedy and, you know, Jay Abraham, and then ended up going into a real estate coaching program with a guy named Craig Proctor, who\u2019s one of Dan Kennedy\u2019s prot\u00e9g\u00e9s, and the copy was a huge, huge piece of it. And you know through that, you know, I went through the coaching; I went through their graduating coaching, my real estate business grew and grew and grew as I got better at writing copy, and, you know, better at implementing things. Like I started exploring Google Adwords really as soon as it came out. That was a great, great way to get real estate leads back in 2003, 2004 when they started getting big. But I pretty quickly realized that, you know, I didn\u2019t actually like\u2014<em>laughs<\/em>\u2014driving around in my car, and like going to listing appointments, and walking through buildings and all this stuff, like all hours of the day, and working, you know, six or seven days a week.<\/p>\n<p>So I started getting more into the copywriting thing, and I knew all these really high-level agents, you know, really successful agents and brokers from my coaching programs. And they all got copywriting, they all got marketing. So, I started kind of working, doing some side jobs for them. And I think my first job&#8230;you know, this guy wanted me to do some Google Adwords stuff for him, and this was probably like 2005, 2006. And I was like, \u201cAlright. It\u2019s going to take me, like, two or three hours. That\u2019ll be like $1,500.\u201d And he was like, \u201cNo problem!\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Wow. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Wow&#8230;.O-o-o-o-okay!! So maybe I could actually do this. So like I was still doing real estate but, you know obviously, 2007 the market started to shift. 2008, 2009, it really&#8230;you know, I\u2019m sure everyone remembers that there was a little small recession around then, focused on the real estate industry. So not only did my real estate business collapse, my side business writing for real estate agents collapsed, because suddenly these agents who were making 5, 6, 700,000 dollars a year were making like 50 or 60 grand, and scraping by and couldn\u2019t pay their own bills, so they certainly weren\u2019t going to pay me to write copy.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s when I kind of had to make a decision at that point. You know, I had honestly burned out on the real estate game. It\u2019s real high pressure, it\u2019s very, very cutthroat. You do not get paid unless the deal closes. So, you know, if you can go three months working on say, like an investment building sale, and it can fall apart at the last minute over something stupid. And, you know, you thought you were going to make 50 or 60,000 dollars and now you got nothing, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>It\u2019s a constant up and down. And I kind of just was like, \u201cYou know what? Real estate\u2019s not working. I\u2019m just going to shut down the business. At that point, I couldn\u2019t even sell it because it wasn\u2019t worth anything anymore. It went from being, you know, probably worth one million, one-point-five million, to <em>nothing<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wow!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. In about twelve to eighteen months. And during that time, you know, I had also had some personal stuff where I had lost three really good friends in a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>My gosh!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I had a four-year relationship end suddenly. You know, and it kind of all happened in 2008 and finally I was like, \u201cYou know? I need a fresh start. I need to go do something else. I\u2019m just going to hang up my shoes as a freelance copywriter and see what happens.\u201d Because it couldn\u2019t be possibly any worse than real estate right now, and it\u2019s, you know, the only thing that I can think that I really love doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>I\u2019m trying to put my feet in your shoes, and going through that experience; having all that hit at once, it \u00a0must\u2019ve been at some level terrifying to lose all of that stuff. Why did you think that copywriting was the thing to move you forward?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Well I mean, I\u2019d already had some success at it, you know? Like I said, I\u2019d already been getting paid as kind of a side gig to write copy for other real estate agents, and you know you, I\u2019d been studying internet marketing for a while. So I knew people paid copywriters a good amount of money to do their thing. So I was like, \u201cThere\u2019s no reason why I can\u2019t do this.\u201d You know? It\u2019s just that I I\u2019ve got to learn another business the same way I learned real estate, I can learn the business of copywriting. So, yeah. I mean I guess, for me, you know, that fear of failing is like&#8230;well, so what, right? <em>Laughs<\/em>. At that point, my entire life had fallen apart. I mean, and when I say fallen apart, I mean I went bankrupt, my condo got foreclosed on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I was almost homeless. I had lost everything I had worked for, and again, you know, I had a guy who was like a second father to me had passed away. Three days later a really good friend of mine died in a motorcycle accident. A few months had later another mentor of mine pass away from cancer. And then, you know, the woman who I was with four years\u2014and I was actually planning to ask her to marry me\u2014came back from a yoga retreat and dumped me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Oh my gosh&#8230;!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>So&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Wow. That must\u2019ve been some yoga retreat.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah, so I was like, I\u2019ve got nothing else to lose, so, let\u2019s see what happens.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Wow. So, let\u2019s see if this question comes out correctly, but, how do you manage all of that at a time like that when you\u2019re losing people who are close to you; losing a relationship; losing your business; like, losing your <em>mind?<\/em>How do you deal with it while you\u2019re in it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Well for me, I mean, I was lucky that I had some really close friends that helped me through it, you know. One of them, her partner had been a flight attendant, so like she was able to fly me out to visit them in L.A. for free, so I stayed with them for a few weeks and kind of got some space from my life situation. Went down to visit my brother who also lives in California, he\u2019s down in San Diego; I stayed there for a little bit. So I kind of got some breathing room, came back, and then connected with a really, just, great group of people, actually through a meditation center, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. You know, a bunch of people around my age. We were significantly younger than the general crowd there. And we all kind of went off and just became like a tightly-knit group of friends and people looking for support, and also willing to lend support. So having that was huge. And of course my family was there too, but at that stage, you know, it was so, so much loss in such a short time, this <em>one<\/em>thing probably wouldn\u2019t have been enough.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>It\u2019s interesting to hear you tell that story because it gives some context. I\u2019ve heard you talk about how important it is for you to spend time with your family today, especially with your daughter. It feels like there\u2019s a direct relationship between losing it all and now understanding what you\u2019ve got, and the opportunity you have with your copywriting business to spend time with your family.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah, and i have two sons, too, who are just eleven months old now. So it\u2019s still a balancing act, right, because, you know, copywriting can be very demanding; it\u2019s a deadline driven business. but it\u2019s really, really important to me to have that balance, and that was actually one of the reasons I decided to go with copy, because of copyright, because I was like, well it\u2019s freelance. I can work from home, or work from a coffee shop. You know, I may have to work a lot, but I can kind of structure my hours around other things in my life, and I don\u2019t have to give up everything in my life for a business, which is what I did with the real estate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So I\u2019d like to hear just what you learned from your time in real estate. Like, what business advice would you give to copywriters who are trying to build your business, based off what you learned, growing this business that was worth a million dollars at one point?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah. And you know, I think the biggest thing is\u2014and this may sound a little silly because it\u2019s kind of self-evident I think\u2014but I learned how to sell. Right? I learned how to sell face-to-face; I learned how to anticipate and answer objections. I learned how to understand what\u2019s important to people. I did a lot of work with investors, but my team also, we also did a lot of buyer and seller work, where\u2019s there just people buying and selling homes, and understanding the motivations that each own, or you know, a retired couple selling their home and moving down to a condo has a very different set of expectations, needs, wants, and worries than anyone else.<\/p>\n<p>And you have to understand those and talk to people about that stuff so they feel understood. And what I always get from my clients is they\u2019re like, \u201cYou know, we feel like you\u2019re the first one who\u2019s actually listened to us. We\u2019ve talked to five real estate agents, and you\u2019re the first one who actually listened. And I think that actually came from my writing background, because when I was doing the fiction writing program, it was a lot of short story work, and I had a mentor who really pounded into my head that you have to love your characters, and the way you build your characters is you have to care about people. And you have to understand what motivates people, and you can\u2019t judge them. You have to really have a lot of empathy. Because when a writer doesn\u2019t care about their characters, you can tell. You can feel the judgment in the writing; you can feel that there\u2019s no connection there. But when a writer has empathy for their characters, it draws you in and you find yourself\u2014even if they\u2019re a terrible person, you know\u2014you kind of get drawn into this character, right?<\/p>\n<p>So I think that lesson without realizing it, applied to my sales work. And you know, I also learned the mechanics of sales, like how to ask for the sale, you know? How to walk people along that path until there\u2019s just the logical next thing to do, is just to sign that contract. Which, again, that came and really helped for copywriting because, you know, in good copy, you\u2019ve got to build empathy, show them you understand that you get their problem, and not only do you have a solution, but you got to them along the path, right? You can\u2019t just say \u201cHey, I\u2019ve got this great new thing,\u201d and \u201cBuy it!\u201d You know, you\u2019ve got to answer the objections, you\u2019ve got to kind of get them excited about it; you\u2019ve got to move them faster and faster and faster until when they get to that order button, the only logical option, right, like it\u2019s the only thing you should do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right. So, I\u2019d like to hear about how you built your copywriting business, you know. You started\u2014well, you didn\u2019t start from scratch. You\u2019d had copywriting experience and some jobs, but you were really building this new business. What did it take to start lining up clients and getting some steady work to be able to buy a new place, and afford the things that you needed at the time?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>So, you know, I started out doing the kind of thing that a lot of people do, which is like, having a website, and driving leads to it; you know, at the time Google Adwords\u2014this was 2008, 2009&#8211;so like Google Adwords is really the only game in town. I mean, you could do, back then, it was Yahoo, and now it\u2019s Bing, that had some traffic, but Google was really the game. But by that time, you know, so many people were using it that so many keywords were <em>so<\/em>expensive. There\u2019s no way you were making money on them.<\/p>\n<p>So&#8230;and frankly, a lot of the clients I got from there were not great. Where I did get a lot of good clients was I, you know, I kind of found marketing websites, and just asked them if they wanted me to write for them, you know? Just write articles. And I actually got a great long-term client through that. A few long-term clients, actually. So one thing I would say is if you can not only have your own blog, where you talk about stuff, marking-related things in copy, but if you can get on to like a good\u2014like someone else\u2019s blog that has an authority and some impact? You know, because these people are always looking for content. And if you have good content and you can write well and say interesting things, even if it\u2019s not news to <em>you&#8230;<\/em><\/p>\n<p>As copywriters we assume that people know what we know, but for a lot of small business owners, like, they don\u2019t know anything about copy, so like we\u2019re magicians. So we just explain the very basics, they think we\u2019re awesome. So it\u2019s stuff like that I think is really, really effective. The key I think is finding the right people to partner with, and, you know it can be a little difficult starting out to prove that you can really provide good content. And of course, you\u2019re doing it for free, right? They\u2019re not paying you; that\u2019s the other thing. So a lot of people will have a hard time getting their head around that. But, the return in investment could be huge. And again, that actually came out of real estate because I convinced the local newspaper to let me write a real estate column once a month.<\/p>\n<p>So once a month, I basically took, you know, a common real estate problem that I wrote about in sales letters, took that sales letter, turned it into an article so it wasn\u2019t so salesly, and then submitted it. And so people would be like, \u201cOh yeah, I\u2019ve seen you in the paper!\u201d So that, again, got me a lot of business in the real estate, and it got me a good amount of business in copy. But as far as like, what really make a difference for me? It wasn\u2019t until I started really going to events, and networking with people, and meeting people who are higher up the food chain so to speak that I started really, really doing well. I mean I had a lot of connections through Parris, and you know, I\u2019d know Brian Kurtz for a long time, and that had always been a good source of business. But as I expanded that network, not only did the network directly feed me business, but you know, I got referrals. So, you know, again, that also comes from real estate, where I\u2019d always ask for referrals.<\/p>\n<p>Obviously do great work so you can get referrals, but then always ask for them, you know. And then allow your network to feed you. Because, if people are really happy with what you do, they will more than likely give you more business. They\u2019ll tell you about someone else who can use your services. Even if they\u2019re in the same industry; I\u2019ve had marketing managers, you know, in the nutritional industry, say, \u201cHey, these guys aren\u2019t our direct competitors because they\u2019re too small, but they may be a good match for what you\u2019re doing right now, so why don\u2019t you give this guy a call, and you know he needs some help with some sales letters. You know? So&#8230;and that\u2019s all because of asking for it, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>I definitely want to ask more about the networking aspect of how you\u2019ve grown your business, but, I want to go back to the first pitches that you were making to, you know, marketing sites. You want to write for them. What were you saying to them? What did the pitch look like? Because I hear from a lot of people who try cold-pitching that doesn\u2019t work, or that it\u2019s not working for <em>them<\/em>, and so I\u2019m curious, what was the message that you were pitching, and is just offering free service enough, or was there more to it than that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I would send them an article. I would write something that was like, \u201cHey, you know, I would like to write to your website. I really like what you\u2019re doing.\u201d And it would be sincere, like, I wouldn\u2019t&#8230;you know&#8230;if someone\u2019s got a garbage site, and they sell crap, I don\u2019t want to be associated with that. So, you know, be sincere with why you want to work with them, and then send them a sample. Like say, \u201cHere, here\u2019s an article. Just check it out,\u201d you know. We\u2019re talking like five hundred words, right, on literally any copywriter topic. Any copywriter could probably crank out ten of these in a week without even breaking a sweat in your spare time. I mean, some of them would be like, \u201cWhy a headline is important\u201d, you know. \u201cHow to ask for the order.\u201d <em>Chuckles. \u201c<\/em>Why people don\u2019t buy from you.\u201d Okay, here\u2019s five reasons why people don\u2019t buy from you. Stuff that <em>we<\/em>know<em>, <\/em>like I said. Stuff that we take for granted, but that a lot of people reading this stuff, it\u2019s like a revelation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So, you mentioned networking. What did that look like for you early on? I mean, you also\u2014you know, you mentioned Parris, Brian Kurtz&#8230; So, how were you even introduced to these big names like Parris Lampropoulos and Brian Kurtz? I mean, how do you get into a room with them to begin with, and then how do you continue to network, and do it the right way beyond that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I really do prefer calling them \u201crelationships\u201d, because \u201cnetworking\u201d to me implies it\u2019s just very sterile, back-and-forth exchange. It doesn\u2019t really hit on the fact that when I network, I only want to do business with people that I really like and connect with. And that i think are a good fit, and that offer something that I think has actual true value in the marketplace. So, as far as Parris, you know, I actually connected with him by a friend who I met at a Dan Kennedy group that met in Boston, and met and this guy hit it off; he was another copywriter. We\u2019re still buddies today. And, it\u2019s like 2009. He called me up and he\u2019s like, \u201cHey, man. You know, there\u2019s this guy named Parris Lampropoulos.\u201d And I was like, \u201cWho the hell is that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>He\u2019s like, \u201cHe\u2019s a really big copywriter but he doesn\u2019t like his name out in public. But he\u2019s looking for \u2018Copy Cubs\u2019, and you know, I don\u2019t want to do it because I have my own thing, but I think it\u2019d be really good for you, so here\u2019s his number. I told him you were going to give him a call. And he\u2019s going to want to see like what you think your best sales letter is.\u201d So, you know, I called him up, and he was like, \u201cOh&#8230;I\u2019m&#8230; really busy. Uh, let\u2019s set a time to talk. Okay, bye.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And we finally get on the phone\u2014and he asked me to send the sales letter I wrote. And he proceeded to just, like, tear it apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. This is like the second phone call, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Well, this was like&#8230;the first phone call was like very brief. I mean, literally like, \u201cHey, okay, send me this thing, and then we\u2019ll talk. In like a week, after I\u2019ve had a chance to look at it. Okay bye.\u201d It was like that long.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And then, the only call was like an hour, at first, after he\u2014I should say <em>before<\/em>he tore apart my sales letter, he asked me things like, \u201cWhat\u2019s in your bookcase?\u201d You know, he wanted to hear all the copywriting books that I read. So I ran through everything I had, and apparently that was enough for him to be like, \u201cHmm&#8230;okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And then he asked me about my background, you know, \u201cWhere did you come from?\u201d So I told him about being in real estate. And I think that helped because he actually has a real estate background as well. And yeah. And then, you know, apparently even though he hated my sales letter, he felt it was decent enough to get me into the door. So I ended up, in mid-2009, starting in this Copy Cub program with Parris. And, you know starting, I mean, realizing that I thought I knew what I was doing, and suddenly realizing that I was totally clueless, you know? I\u2019d been writing my own copy for, you know, a good eight years at that point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And yeah. I mean, just, the other people in the group too were just on a much, much higher level. I was definitely the low man on the totem pole, you know. You know, like Barnaby Kalan was in there. Barnaby at that time had already written controls for Boardroom. Alia Carson, who\u2019s now moved on from the copywriting world, but was, you know, also doing really big stuff. A guy named Alexi Neocleous who\u2019s like the number-one copywriter in Australia. He\u2019s like the Dan Kennedy of Australia, basically.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah. Hugely successful business. He actually was&#8230; You guys know who Ed O\u2019Keefe is, right? I think he was Ed\u2019s&#8230;he was working with Ed for a long time as well. So a lot of the stuff that, you know, I think that the strategy was actually maybe Alexi\u2019s that took Ed to the next level in the last couple of years. Brilliant, brilliant guy. I mean Ed\u2019s brilliant too, but I think the two of them together was just like the perfect mix. Yeah, and it was just an amazing mix of people. And, you know, Parris\u2014once you\u2019re in, you get it all. He, you know, takes you through the entire process, you know. Starts you at the very beginning, and just kind of builds you up over time. And I was with him for&#8230;I was officially a copy cub until late 2016, so it was a good seven years or so. And then\u2014it wasn\u2019t that I left. I mean, our copy cub group, he kind of wound it down, because he was starting a new group with a new group of cubs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah. Interesting. So, I know a lot of the stuff Parris teaches&#8230;it\u2019s confidential, it\u2019s proprietary, and most people who are in there don\u2019t even talk about their experience. I\u2019m really curious though, what were some of the \u201cah-ha\u201ds that you had? You know, you mentioned that you realized that you were doing everything wrong. Especially early on, what were some of those light bulb moments as you started working through the frameworks and the constructs that Parris was sharing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Well, yeah. I mean, a lot of the stuff is confidential, but I think I can share some of the big picture stuff that got me; really hit me over the head. So, you know, at the time, I was writing a lot of, like, well okay, it wasn\u2019t as good as John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, obviously. But I was <em>trying<\/em>to write like them. And, you know, John and Dan are really good at understanding what motivates people and they\u2019re underlying emotions, and their headlines and copy play to that. But people see it and they see the hype, right? They don\u2019t get the mechanics behind it. So at the time, I was doing a lot of that. I was imitating the hype, you know: \u201cThe amazing real estate secret of a one-legged golfer from Arizona.\u201d You know, like&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah. <em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I mean, I look back and I wince. But I mean, it worked, right? Like, that wasn\u2019t a literal headline, But I mean, it was along those lines. And Parris\u2019 thing was like, \u201cLook. You don\u2019t get what\u2019s going on here. You don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know yet. So, the biggest thing here is, think about sitting across from someone\u2014someone you <em>really<\/em>care about\u2014and this is a really important thing that they need to use, and you got to convince them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Hmmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Right? And that\u2019s like huge. And we hear it all the time, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah, all the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>We hear, \u201cIt\u2019s like a letter to a friend. Copywriting like a letter to a friend.\u201d But what does that really mean, right? And that\u2019s all; Parris just said it in a different way. You know, that\u2019s really what it boils down too, right? You\u2019re writing a letter to a friend. Or better yet, you\u2019re speaking to someone you really care about; a really close friend that you love and care about. And they\u2019ve got a problem that you have the solution to. You really think it would help them. And then how would you do that? Would you scream in their face?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong><em>Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong><em>No!<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Maybe.<em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>No, of course you wouldn\u2019t. I mean you would maybe be emphatic about it, right? You may even raise your voice and pound the table to make a point. But, you know, you\u2019re doing it because you care, right? So you have to care. Like, you have to care about your customers. because if you don\u2019t, like again, that\u2019ll come right through in your copy. Just like I said earlier about when fiction writers create characters, they have to love their characters; they have to have empathy for their characters. You don\u2019t have to <em>like<\/em>your characters. But you have to have empathy for them. Same thing with your customers. Like, I write a lot\u2014I\u2019m pretty liberal, and I write a lot for the financial and health markets that skew pretty conservative. And you know, I\u2019m like,<em>ugh<\/em>. Man&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>That\u2019s&#8230;.that\u2019s tough for me, and all of these people are \u201cTrumpers\u201d. But here\u2019s their problem, and I have empathy for their problem, and I understand where they\u2019re coming from, you know. And I want to help them solve this problem. I don\u2019t want to sell them a thing just to sell them a thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So, as a Copy Cub for seven years, did you know you were getting into it for seven years, when you first \u201cyes\u201d to Parris?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I\u2014<em>laughs<\/em>\u2014I don\u2019t think the seven years was an, like, official plan, you know? That\u2019s how long we\u2014some of us to turn around that long.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And then Parris was like, \u201cAlright. Kicking you outta the nest. Get outta here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u201cGo off on your own; you got this.\u201d But he did say, you know, this was a long-term commitment. You\u2019re going to spend a lot of time working on stuff for me that you\u2019re not getting paid for. Basically homework, which we had every week, <em>chuckles<\/em>, for years. Which took a ton of time, and took me from paying clients\u2014he was very upfront about that. He was like, \u201cThis is probably going to cost you a lot of money in the short-term. But in the <em>long-term<\/em>, you know, if you follow through, you know, you\u2019ll be able to be at the upper tier of what copywriters are getting paid, because you\u2019ll be able to get the results that people pay for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So when you\u2019re in it, you\u2019re not getting paid for the projects you\u2019re working on? It\u2019s just really training&#8230;?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Oh no, no, no. So, we may, like, do stuff like write bullets for homework&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>&#8230;on a project, but I also did projects with Parris and of course I got paid for those.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>But, at times, he\u2019d be like, \u201cOkay. Well, we\u2019re going to use this as a homework example, so, here\u2019s a thing for Boardroom that we\u2019re working on. Write bullets, and then next week we\u2019ll rip them apart, and I\u2019ll tell you what\u2019s good and what\u2019s bad and then we\u2019ll redo them, and then the next week we\u2019ll come back and we\u2019ll edit them again\u201d, and through that process, you learn how to write really, really good bullets.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>So there\u2019s also a context to it, right? Like you have an actual product you\u2019re writing for. Otherwise, it wouldn\u2019t really work very well if you didn\u2019t have\u2014that was a real thing you were writing to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So if a copywriter\u2019s listening, and they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, this sounds so awesome, you know, but I don\u2019t know Parris and Parris may not even want me to be a Copy Cub; there are only so many people that can be one of his Cubs,\u201d what would recommend to someone who\u2019s hungry to get some type of training and education like that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Well, I think the first thing is like, Parris is not\u2014probably going to <em>not<\/em>take someone or work with someone who is really green, or like, doesn\u2019t have some experience under their belt. You know, a lot of it comes through, you know, personal referral or people he meets at events, and he\u2019s impressed with their work. So I would say, if you\u2019re starting out, you know, like the AWAII course; John Carlton\u2019s freelance course. Awesome, awesome course. The thing that\u2019s super unpopular right now: <em>hand-copy controls<\/em>. It totally works. I know people think it doesn\u2019t&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>It\u2019s super boring. I\u2019m left-handed and I have terrible handwriting, and Parris made us hand-copy so much stuff. I have notebooks and notebooks filled with hand-copy controls. But I got to tell ya; it makes you way better as a copywriter. And I know people who are making 500, 600, 700,000 dollar-a-year copywriters, and they <em>still<\/em>do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Okay, so what\u2019s the \u201cwhy\u201d behind that? Because you\u2019re right; I hear a lot of people saying it, and a lot of people who say they swear by it, and then I hear others who are like, \u201cEh, you know, it\u2019s more important to study the reasons why, rather than to copy.\u201d Like, for you, Paul, what was the psychology behind it? Why did it work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>So, yeah. I hear both arguments, and the thing I think people who say \u201cit\u2019s more important to understand the reason why\u201d don\u2019t understand is that, when you hand-copy thing, it forces you to break it down, and look at why it works, right? And also by hand-copying things, you remember them. You imprint them on your brain. So, people who hand-copy lecture notes retain more information than people who type it on their computer, right? Actual scientific studies. So I assume it\u2019s the same mechanism with bullets. And, you know, this is not an unusual thing, like, you know, great painters throughout history&#8230;how did they learn how to paint? They copied mastered. They learned technique by copying the masters. Writers, same thing; I was told in fiction writing programs, if you love a writer, hand-copy their work. You\u2019ll understand the flow, you\u2019ll sort of break down their writing. You\u2019ll naturally start to understand, and then you can actually intellectualize and be like, \u201cOh, okay. This is why they did that thing.\u201d But you may not see that unless you slow down and actually go through the process of writing it out by hand.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay. Because we\u2019re digging into this, I want to ask, you know, for&#8230;.again, for new copywriter, and they\u2019re like, \u201cCool, I want to do that,\u201d where do I find a really good control to hand-copy because my concern would be that, especially when you\u2019re new, you end up copying something that\u2019s actually not that great, and you get worse, or you just don\u2019t improve because you\u2019re copying crap.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Right. I mean, I think one thing you want to do is look at what companies are killing it right now in the direct response space. So like, Stansbury, right? Stansbury has<em>awesome<\/em>copy. Money Map? Awesome copy. Agora Financial? Awesome copy. They\u2019re all Agora companies, noticed. Boardroom, you know? Awesome copy. The easy way to get this stuff by the way is if you subscribe to like one financial newsletter from Agora, like if you subscribe to like Stansbury Research\u2019s&#8230;I think it\u2019s like $99 a year letter&#8230;you\u2019ll get <em>all<\/em>their copy; they\u2019ll just send you promotions forever. Same thing if you buy like a product from Agora Health. They\u2019ll put you on all their mailing lists. You\u2019ll get all their controls; they\u2019ll just show up in their mailbox. Same thing with Boardroom; you\u2019ll start getting stuff. And anything that consistently shows up in your mail, that\u2019s good, you know? Or in your inbox, you know. That\u2019s another thing, is I always keep an eye on what\u2019s coming through my inbox from different companies, because if I see something more than a couple of times, I know that it\u2019s working, right? So that goes into a little file, and I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s obviously something that\u2019s winning for them.\u201d The other thing I look at is, you know, when you read articles online, you go look at those little ads in the bottom. And if there\u2019s anything direct response related, like \u201cthe one weird trick\u201d, or&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>You know, the James Altucher ads that were everywhere for the Bitcoin? Like, they\u2019re spending a lot of money on those. Obviously, that works. So you know, you click on that, follow it; if you can get a transcription of that, VSL, just by, you know, you go to close and they ask if you want to see it, hit print and save it as a PDF so you can analyze it later. If not, just go to Rev, and they\u2019ll transcribe it for you probably. But, that\u2019s what I do. I mean, whenever I see something that catches my eye, and I see it consistently in those little display-ad network things, I\u2019m like, \u201cObviously this is working; let\u2019s check it out and see what they\u2019re doing here. Somebody\u2019s spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a month on those ads, right? So, obviously they\u2019re getting results. So obviously that control, that whatever they\u2019re sending it to, is a really strong control. because no one sends cold traffic to crappy control.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So Paul, I\u2019m curious, you know. You mentioned that you talked about the books that you read, you know, as you started working with Parris, and we\u2019re talking about the processes like hand-copying, that kind of a thing. Now that you\u2019ve gone through that process, you know, ten years later, how do you stay sharp? You know, what are you reading today, or what are you doing today, that\u2019s beyond what you were doing, you know, as you were getting started as an A-lister\u2014or an-almost-A-lister, however you want to call yourself. <em>Chuckles<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>So this is maybe not the best advice for other copywriters: I don\u2019t read a lot of copywriting books anymore. I don\u2019t really even read a lot of business books anymore. There\u2019s books that kind of get my brain going, and then there\u2019s the stuff I read because I enjoy the stories, of, you know, fiction. So, looking at my bookcase right now, you know, there\u2019s a bunch of Raymond Carver books. Raymond Carver is a fantastic writer to emulate for anyone, just, I think, because he packs a ton of emotion into very simple, sparse language.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah. And they\u2019re great stories, too. I mean, they\u2019re compelling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yes. Great stories. And they\u2019re short. So there\u2019s really good copywriting lessons in Raymond Carver. And I\u2019m not saying you should try to write exactly like him; obviously he was a master at what he did. but the biggest thing is \u201cshow, don\u2019t tell\u201d. And by showing, all this stuff gets implied about their characters and who they are in their background, and then that carries you through the story. Likewise, you know, in copywriting, you want to show, not tell, and <em>show<\/em>people you understand. Don\u2019t just tell them: \u201cOh, I understand your pain.\u201d You know? Tell them a story about someone who has the same problem. Better yet, tell them a story\u2014a <em>real <\/em>story\u2014about someone who had the same problem, and how they fixed it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>So Paul, we had chatted a little bit about coming up with really big ideas, and you \u00a0mentioned that you figured out\u2014you\u2019ve mastered\u2014the way to come up with really million-dollar big ideas, so would you mind sharing that with us?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah. What I think i said in my email was, and this was a little bit tongue-in-cheek by the way, how to find million-dollar big ideas by dicking around on the internet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s what it was. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I want to do that. I spend way too much time, you know, on the internet, <em>without<\/em>the million dollar ideas. Let\u2019s&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Right! So you might as well make it productive, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>And the nice thing is, is you can kind of do the same thing, right, that you\u2019re already doing. You\u2019re just doing it looking for ideas. So like, here\u2019s the basic thing, right: so, I think it was Joe Sugarman who said it originally, was that, you know, to be a great copywriter, you have to have specific knowledge about your market, and you have to have general knowledge about the world at large, right? You know, a lot times, you find great ideas by linking those two things, right? And the example I love is back in the \u201870\u2019s, and if you guys don\u2019t know who Joe Sugarman is\u2014anyone who\u2019s listening\u2014he came up with Blue Blocker Sunglasses. He\u2019s a multi-bagillionaire, probably made more money than any copywriter in history. Brilliant, brilliant guy. Re-buy and read any of his books, they\u2019re amazing. But he had this thing in the \u201870\u2019s called a \u201cpocket CD\u201d. And it was a walkie-talkie, right, and walkie-talkies were knew. But people knew about them, but they were still kind of new. But the CD craze was big, right? So that was the general. Walkie-talkies were specific. Crossed them over: pocket CD, right? That\u2019s the big idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Yeah, I like it. And anybody who doesn\u2019t remember the \u201870\u2019s, you know, there was, you know, shows on TV\u2014<em>BJ and the Bear <\/em>was like about a trucker, and there were, you know, <em>The Cannonball Run<\/em>, and you know, there were a whole bunch of movies&#8230; <em>Convoy <\/em>came out, like, there were a whole bunch of movies sort of in the late \u201870\u2019s that there, the CD-radio was <em>everything<\/em>, and it was a major plot point in everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah, yeah. And that\u2019s when those ads came out, you know? He was listening to what was going on in the world, and he linked two different ideas. So, how o you do that now? Well, the nice thing is we have limitless information, right? The bad thing is, we have limitless information, right? So you\u2019ve got to kind of sort through it and figure out what\u2019s going on and what\u2019s going to be useful to you and what\u2019s not. So like, the example I use it, I wrote a control called Patriot Health Line\u2014it\u2019s a joint cream, you know, it comes in a little roll-on, which is a <em>little bit<\/em>unusual, but it\u2019s not unusual enough that I wanted to make that the sell-point, right? And it didn\u2019t really have any super-unique ingredients; it had natural versions of stuff that\u2019s in a lot of other pain creams. So, it had like, wintergreen, and all this other stuff. All of which is great, right? It all works.<\/p>\n<p>But people have heard about it before. And if you have joint pain, you have a bad back, or a bum shoulder, it\u2019s something you\u2019ve dealt with for a long time. And if you\u2019re on a natural health website, chances are you\u2019ve tried all this other stuff, right? Or at least you\u2019ve tried some of them. It\u2019s not enough just to tell people that you\u2019ve got this new formula that has all these things in it. because you\u2019ll only get some people who\u2019ve never heard of them before. You want to get all the people, right?<\/p>\n<p>So, you\u2019ve got to engage them with&#8230;and Todd Brown talks about this a lot&#8230;with a unique mechanism, right? You got to find a really cool thing within your product research that you can hang your hat on, that kind of is a hinge that makes the promo work. But before you get to that hinge, that opens the big door to all the money, you\u2019ve got to have a way to intrigue people and get them to read it. Because even a great mechanism still needs something to pull people in, and here\u2019s how you do it: so, the headline for this is \u201cHow a Pennsylvania Coal-Fire Led to an Amazing Joint Pain Breakthrough\u201d. and then the subhead tells you about the benefits, right? \u2018Cause the headline is total, like, \u201cWhat? What the hell is that?\u201d You know, it kind of implies that there\u2019s a breakthrough\u2014it says there\u2019s a breakthrough, so obviously, you know, it kind of lets you know if you have joint pain, this is for you. And then the subhead says, this natural remedy brings blessed relief in just minutes, lasts up to twelve hours, and works on even your most stubborn joint pain.<\/p>\n<p>So I hit all the big pain points, and that all came through research, right? Like I know that obviously they\u2019re on a natural health website, they want natural. Nothing works fast, right, even chondroitin, which works great. Takes sometimes weeks or longer to kick in. Same thing with glucosamine. A lot of joint creams where off really quickly. So, lasts for up to twelve hours, and a lot of them don\u2019t work, if you have really painful, like really bad knees, <em>this stuff does<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>So I hit all of the big pain points and all the things they wanted. And then I went into the story of this city called Centralia, Pennsylvania, which a coal seam caught fire\u2014it was a coal-mining town\u2014and basically, like, no one knew there was a problem. And then all the sudden, you know, fire started springing up all over town, you know, and it\u2019s still burning, and it\u2019ll burn for hundreds of years. And, what I linked that to is the idea of inflammation, alright? So, if you have joint pain, you have inflammation, but you don\u2019t always have joint pain, right? Like, it flares up. You know, like you\u2019ll bump your knee, and all the sudden your knee will just hurt for days. You\u2019ll turn to pick something up and your back goes out. Or you\u2019re carrying your grandkid and like your shoulder just spasms, and you\u2019re in agony for a week. And people are always wondering, \u201cWell, why does that happen,\u201d right? Well, so the story I told them was, \u201cWell, you know, you have this inflammation in your cells, and just like the fires burning under Centralia, Pennsylvania\u2014the coal fires\u2014you got these fires from inflammation are smoldering every cell of your body, especially your joints.<\/p>\n<p>And when you bump your knee, or twist or back, or pick up your grandkid, they flare up. And here\u2019s why.\u201d And then I go into the mechanism, which is, you know, really, boring science about a specific molecule that, you know, causes inflammation, and does a whole pain cascade thing and, you know, it\u2019s too complex to tell people off the bat, but if you can get them in, you know, then we go into the reason why, right? Like <em>why<\/em>do you still have this pain. But the story is what gets them in.<\/p>\n<p>So, how do you find the story? That\u2019s when the dicking around on the internet comes in. So I found that story on a website called atlasobscura.com. And Atlas Obscura started out as a book of exactly what it sounds like: weird places around the world. Random facts about weird places around the world. Really fascinating. And then they started a website. So, they update it constantly. There\u2019s tons of stuff on there, you know, and sometimes just by going through that, you\u2019ll find all these interesting ideas, you know.<\/p>\n<p>Other things I like at are just books like&#8230;there\u2019s a great one called <em>How We Got to Now, <\/em>which is like how the modern world happened. Bill Bryson has an awesome book called <em>At Home<\/em>, which is like the history of these weird everyday objects. There\u2019s also a book called, i think it\u2019s, <em>History of the World and the 100 Objects<\/em>, or something like that. And if you just go on <em>Amazon<\/em>and start looking at any of those, you\u2019ll find all\u2014a bunch of them. Like there\u2019s a bunch of them. Like there\u2019s one called <em>Now I Know More<\/em>, which is, again, a whole book of weird, random trivia stories. And, you know, fill your head with this stuff, and as you read this stuff, a lot of times ideas will pop up. And if you\u2019re looking for the link, right, sometimes you can find the links between whatever you\u2019re working on, and the thing you\u2019re selling.<\/p>\n<p>I just finished a promo, and it hasn\u2019t been released yet so I\u2019m can\u2019t talk about the specific headline or anything, but it\u2019s a probiotics, right? And everyone in the world knows that, \u201cOh, probiotics, they do this stuff to your gut, and their good bacteria; they kill, get rid of the bad bacteria&#8230;\u201d You know, no one wants to hear that, right? So I had to find a new way to say it, so, I went on <em>Amazon<\/em>, starting typing and looking for books on probiotics, and leaky-gut, and all this stuff&#8230;and you got to sort through all the crap, for want of a better word, with those kind of searches, just \u2018cause you got all of these people who are just like selling whatever garbage their selling by writing a crappy book about it. <em>Chuckles<\/em>. You don\u2019t want those. But what I found was a great book called <em>This is Your Brain on Parasites, <\/em>which was interviews with all these scientists and really well-written too, but, massive support about how gut parasites take over your whole body, right? And how any parasite takes over your whole body. So, like, there\u2019s a parasite in cat poop that makes you like cats more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>Interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah! But there\u2019s another that blew my mind. I didn\u2019t use this in the promotions so I can talk about it, where the flu makes you more social before you actually get sick. So there\u2019s a lag between when you get infected with the flu, and when you manifest symptoms. But the flu needs to spread itself, right? That\u2019s how it survives. So if you\u2019re too sick to move, and you\u2019re at home, and you\u2019re sweating, and you get the chills, and you\u2019re sneezing and coughing, and no one wants to be around you, right? And you\u2019re not out in public. So, it actually will make you go be social in those two to three days before you manifest symptoms where you\u2019re actually the most contagious!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2019m going to have to read this book. I\u2019m like, really intrigued.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah, so you can see how I read that, and I was like, \u201cHoly crap! Here\u2019s my big idea!\u201d Right? Like, here\u2019s this idea about how these parasites control you, which is way scarier, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>And it seems to me that you probably kill it at trivia night at the local bar, you know, having gone through all of this stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Oh yeah. <em>Laughs<\/em>. But that also goes back to, you know, specific knowledge about your market, right? So that book? I read that book because I was like, \u201cWell, I need some more knowledge about this; I know all this other stuff but, this is new knowledge about this market, potentially. And I need to know this stuff.\u201d That\u2019s why I read that book, so that goes back to the Sugarman thing, but it also plays into the idea of, you know, finding the big idea in really weird, random places.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah. So once you have the big idea, is there a framework that you, sort of, bolt on to the back of it, or, you know, is it specific to each different assignment, each product that you\u2019re writing for? Do you have a checklist that you\u2019re writing against?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I use a general outline, like a template, pretty much, but that\u2019s really just to give myself some structure. I do not do well with no structure. I just go around in circles and drive myself crazy. So, about a year and a half about, two years ago, I went to a seminar by Clayton Makepeace called Speed Writing. I believe you can actually buy the DVDs or replays from AWAI. I would recommend everyone buy. It\u2019s expensive, it\u2019s probably like $3,500, but it\u2019s 100% worth it. Best copywriting seminar I\u2019ve ever been to. And again, I can\u2019t give away the outline, because it\u2019s part of the seminar, but the outline he gives you and the process he shows you is just so good for organizing your ideas. And as a result of, you know, forty years of experience, and super simple, but man, it <em>kills<\/em>. And it\u2019s not the same, so I don\u2019t use the same thing for every promotion, but in terms of organizing ideas, there\u2019s a definite process that I swiped completely from Clayton.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>I was just going to say that I\u2019m sure there\u2019s a lot more detail in the $3,500 program, but you can Google Clayton Makepeace\u2019s 20-point outline for sales pages, which is also really helpful, and free, if you can\u2019t afford the course.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah! Yeah. And so a lot of that stuff was actually a freebie before the seminar, so that may actually be the same&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, maybe! I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>&#8230;It may be the same thing. If not, it\u2019s still a really good way to organize your thoughts, and I would recommend that anyone, you know, who wants to write faster, use a template. You may not end up with that template as your finished product, but it will at least allow you to get all the thoughts organized and get them on paper, and then, you know, that\u2019s your biggest battle, right, is getting stuff down on paper. And then you can start to cut and paste, you know, move stuff around, start to figure out what works better where, cut things out, and it\u2019s a much, much easier process than it is sitting there and being like, \u201cOkay, how do I make this work?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, definitely. I\u2019ve used that outline many times in recent projects. It\u2019s been really helpful. So I just want to know more about, like, where you are today and, what are your projects look like? Like how many clients are you working with today? I just want more details about your current business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Right now I\u2019m working with, probably, three of four different clients and a variety of projects. And I\u2019m also, you know\u2014Parris always gives me crap about this, but\u2014I tend to do more than one project at a time. I find that I\u2019m more creative that way, when I have to shift my brain halfway through the day and work on something else. Even if it\u2019s just research, I just do better that way. So&#8230;and I don\u2019t recommend everyone do this. My ADD brain just works better that way, but yeah. I mean, I generally, like, right now I\u2019m doing projects for, you know, Agora, White Street Search, and a couple other smaller clients who aren\u2019t in the financial space at all. And you guys are asking me what those deals look like, or how do I get those deals, or&#8230;?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Yeah! How you structure those projects. Are you working more retainer model with a couple different clients, or are you working with new clients every quarter? What does that look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah, I generally work with clients on a repeat basis, and the only way I find new clients now is if I get a referral, or if you now, I meet someone like, you know, at Titans, I may work with them or at another event if we connect well. But I don\u2019t really go out and find clients. I don\u2019t do retainers, generally. I\u2019ll do consulting work, but that consulting is a specific package, you know\u2014ten or twenty hours, usually. And that\u2019s paid 100% up front. Or I do project fees. So, you know, advance plus percentage of profits, or bonus structure on the back end. I would actually advice anyone, unless you\u2019re really good at keeping boundaries, retainer deals and be very, very, very difficult. Because you can end up doing way more work than you should for that money, and a client and kind of feel like they got you on the hook. I\u2019m not saying never do them, but, you know, you got to be very careful how you structure them, and you\u2019ve got to be very clear on, you know, this gets you x-hours of time per month, no more. If you want more you got to pay for it. And you got to be very upfront about that. And you\u2019re going to have to constantly reinforce that kind of relationship, even with a great client, you know, because business people\u2014great business people\u2014and busy and they\u2019re crazy and they\u2019re always juggling twenties roles. And they\u2019ll be like, \u201cHey, hey man&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u201cHey, hey, hey&#8230; Uh, can you just like, write up a sales page?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u201cLike, by tomorrow.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u201cBy tomorrow!\u201d Well&#8230;yeah, but it\u2019s going to cost double! <em>Laughs<\/em>. You know? It\u2019s double my hourly rate. So, when I used to do that for some clients, I used to have an hourly rate that I would just either figure out what it would be, right, and I still do that with consulting agreements, right? I charge five hundred bucks an hour. So, that\u2019s what it costs to do consulting with me. So if you want ten hours my time, that\u2019s five grand. Twenty hours so of my time, that\u2019s ten grand. It\u2019s really straight-forward. You know, in terms of per-hour, I did that for a long time and again I do it with the client and, you know, he was okay with me being like, \u201cWell, if I have to drop everything to get this done in two days, I\u2019m going to have to charge you double. So, instead of a hundred&#8230;\u201d but, and this was\u2014it was a hundred an hour back then\u2014I was like, \u201cInstead of a hundred, it\u2019s going to be two hundred an hour.\u201d And you know, they\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, fine. No problem. Understood.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Since you mentioned money and $500 an hour for consulting, would you mind roughly what you charge for sales pages?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Oh yeah, no problem. I generally do\u2014and this kind of varies depending on what the back-end structure looks like\u2014my rule of thumb is I want a project to have the potential to make, like at a <em>bare minimum<\/em>, fifty grand, and ideally, closer to a hundred. Now, not every project\u2019s going to do that, right, because a lot of projects like&#8230;your stuff doesn\u2019t get mailed, or it doesn\u2019t get, you know, promoted the way it should, or it just doesn\u2019t work, you know. Obviously we don\u2019t win every time. But, as long as I get to that\u2014and this is a discussion I have with clients\u2014I say, \u201cWell this is my goal for every project I take, right? Like, here\u2019s my ballpark of what I want to make. So, my advance is, you know, $20,000. And if we can get to fifty or a hundred on the back end, great. And then what I usually tell people is, you know, \u201cI\u2019m doing more; just, I want the entire fee upfront.\u201d Not everyone goes for that. Like Agora will never do that; you know, that\u2019s just not how they roll. A lot of old school marketers will never do that. But a lot of newer ones will; they don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n<p>So, what I say a lot is, if you can\u2019t give you\u2014bring yourself to like <em>ask<\/em>for that full upfront, just say, \u201cI don\u2019t really care whether you give me the money upfront or in two halves. Whatever is easier for you, it doesn\u2019t matter to me. I\u2019m more concerned about the back end.\u201d And what you\u2019ll find is that a certain percentage of clients will be just like, \u201cOh, well I\u2019ll just give it to you all upfront then, okay; no problem.\u201d I stumbled on that one totally by accident, right? So, if you adjust whatever you advance is, if you\u2019re getting paid, you know, in two parts, you know\u2014one, on start, and one, on completion\u2014try that. And, you know, you never know. A lot of clients will just say, \u201cOkay, no problem.\u201d Obviously, new clients, right? Existing clients are used to working with you under certain structures.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Paul, you mentioned that not all of your sales pages work, or work as well as you had hoped. Will you tell us a little bit, maybe, about some of your biggest failures, and what you did to either fix them, or turn that around, and make things work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>I don\u2019t know if I can say <em>huge<\/em>. I mean, not beating the control, right? And that like&#8230;that makes me crazy. Like I get so <em>pissed<\/em>when I don\u2019t beat a control. Like, so I\u2019ve a client in the nutritional space, and I didn\u2019t beat their control, and it\u2019s been gnawing at me for months. So I went back to them; I\u2019m like, \u201cLook. I\u2019m going to redo the lead, and the headline. It\u2019ll cost you this much upfront; same back end deal, but I want another swing at this.\u201d And, you know, so that\u2019s how I\u2019m dealing with it, right? Like I\u2019m just getting back on the horse, and saying, the rest of the copy was good. They loved the copy, they thought it did really well. They were surprised when it didn\u2019t work. So, I\u2019m going back to the drawing board. And I think that\u2019s what you generally want to do if you can, if you have a good relationship with the client, and you\u2019ve had some wins for them in the past, they\u2019ll generally be happy to do that.<\/p>\n<p>If it\u2019s a <em>new<\/em>client, man that\u2019s tough. Because if&#8230;a lot of them&#8230; if you don\u2019t, you know&#8230; if you don\u2019t win right off the bat, then you\u2019re just done. Like, okay; I\u2019ve got a good one. So, I got a email on LinkedIn outta the blue, like in 2013 from a guy named Mike Ward, and Mike Ward is the publisher over at Money Map Press at Agora. These guys are just killing it; Mike\u2019s an amazing marketer; really knows copy; hires top, top talent; and for some reason, he wanted to talk to <em>me<\/em>. So he was like, \u201cHey, I, you know&#8230;I\u2019ve seen some of your work. Why don\u2019t you come down? We\u2019re looking to hire people. Come down to Baltimore.\u201d And it didn\u2019t work out. You know, like, I didn\u2019t really have a lot of financial experience at that time. Plus, I was like, there\u2019s no way I\u2019m moving to Baltimore, <em>laughs<\/em>. Right? No offense to anyone who lives in Baltimore, but, like, my entire family\u2019s in Massachusetts; my wife\u2019s family is in New York and Massachusetts. Wouldn\u2019t really work for us to pick up and move to Baltimore. If it was like <em>Tahiti<\/em>, or like <em>Hawaii<\/em>, I\u2019d be like&#8230;.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>&#8230;\u201dThat\u2019s a little better\u201d, right? Like, you know, that sounds pretty good. So I ended up not getting the gig with them, but you know, Jedd Canty, who\u2019s one of the head copywriters over there, was like, \u201cHey, talk to this guy over here\u2014he\u2019s a really, really smart dude, he runs the financial division over at Newsmax.\u201d And I was like, \u201cAlright man, this is my big break; this is my big break!\u201d And I just <em>bombed. <\/em>I just freaked out, and like, I turned in&#8230;I don\u2019t know what the hell was wrong with the promo. It was&#8230;looking back at it&#8230;it\u2019s just such a piece of crap. And the publisher was like, you know, \u201cI understand this is like your first swing, but uh&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u201c&#8230;there\u2019s so many problems with this I don\u2019t even know where to begin, and I don\u2019t even want to edit it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Whoa!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>And I came back; I was like, \u201cLook man, I\u2019ll take another swing at it. Just\u2014let\u2019s jump on the phone for an hour and tell me what\u2019s going on.\u201d And he was like, \u201cYeah. You know, it\u2019s just&#8230;it\u2019s so all over the place, man. It\u2019s just&#8230;it\u2019s not bad writing, and there\u2019s like a lot of good elements in there. It\u2019s just like, it feels like you through together six different promos.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Because I panicked. Right? And I was like, \u201cI\u2019m just going to make this like&#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u201c&#8230;I\u2019m go after everyone I can.\u201d And it just bombed. I mean, didn\u2019t even get a chance to bomb, because they didn\u2019t even&#8230;they just paid me a kill fee.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong><em>Uh no! Oh&#8230;.man.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>Yeah. So everyone has those failures, right? Like, if anyone tells you they have like a 100% win rate, they\u2019re full of crap. I mean, Parris has, by far, the highest win rate I\u2019ve ever heard of, and I think he wins like four out of five times. So even <em>Parris<\/em>doesn\u2019t hit a home every time. And I would say, even other A-Listers, I mean, they certainly don\u2019t have <em>his<\/em>hit rate\u2014I don\u2019t know for sure, but I would\u2014they\u2019re somewhere between 50 and 80%, you know? And some, like you know, Jim Rutz was, I mean, he\u2019s had some of the biggest controls for Boardroom, but I know sometimes he would do awesome, and he would literally hit these grand slams that would mail for years and make millions and millions and millions of dollars, and other times, it would just bomb, right? He either bombed, or he made all the money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>Wow. Paul, I\u2019m just checking the time. I know we\u2019re already out of time; there are still more questions I want to ask you, but, we\u2019ll just have to have you back on again, so&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>No problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>&#8230;if anyone\u2019s listening, and they want to find you, get in touch with you, ask you a question, where can they find you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. I am like the hardest copywriter to find.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I know!You are!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>You are! You hide out; you\u2019re a little bit like Parris that way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:<\/strong>Yeah, totally. My mentor has taught me well. Yeah, so the easiest way to find me is on Facebook. Just, Paul Martinez; look me up. I\u2019m the goofy-looking guy with the big beard and glasses, who knows all the people in the copywriting world. I\u2019m on a lot of copywriting groups, so if you like post something to my attention and ping me, I\u2019ll maybe have time to answer a question, but I don\u2019t really use my website for anything, so it\u2019s not the best place to find me. It\u2019s paulmartinezcopywriting.com, but it\u2019s&#8230;.<em>laughs<\/em>. You\u2019ll see when you go there. It\u2019s kind of a smart-ass website&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>&#8230;which explains&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s a little bit of a sales letter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul: <\/strong>It\u2019s a <em>little bit of a <\/em>sales letter. But, the headline is: \u201cCongratulations, you\u2019ve made the best decision of your life to hire me as your copywriter.\u201d And I go into like,\u201d Oh, wait, you\u2019re not sure? Oh, okay. Well, here\u2019s the thing,\u201d you know, and then I talk a little bit about like, I\u2019m not going to promise you the world, like you\u2019ve been around the block, man. You know what\u2019s real and what\u2019s not, so just look at my samples. If you like my stuff, give me a call; if not, cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:\u00a0<\/strong>Which, some of that is like conscious positioning, right? But, a lot of it\u2019s&#8230;I don\u2019t want business through my website; I want business through relationships and referrals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Awesome. Well thank you so much for you time, and for sharing and being really open with us, and sharing everything! We really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Paul:\u00a0<\/strong>Hey, no problem guys; thanks for having me on. I\u2019d love to do it again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>And it\u2019s been fantastic, Paul. Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes, and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Our guest for the 87th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast is none other than A-list copywriter Paul Martinez. We covered a lot of ground in this one, including how Paul [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[111,3],"class_list":["post-1455","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-paul-martinez","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"rob Marsh\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@copywriterclub\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@copywriterclub\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"rob Marsh\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"62 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"rob Marsh\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\"},\"headline\":\"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez\",\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\"},\"wordCount\":12383,\"commentCount\":0,\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\",\"keywords\":[\"Paul Martinez\",\"Podcast\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Podcast\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\",\"name\":\"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\",\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\"},\"description\":\"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png\",\"width\":300,\"height\":300,\"caption\":\"Copywriter Paul Martinez\"},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/\",\"name\":\"The Copywriter Club\",\"description\":\"Ideas and habits worth stealing from top copywriters\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\",\"name\":\"rob Marsh\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg\",\"caption\":\"rob Marsh\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/author\/rob\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club","description":"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club","og_description":"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.","og_url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/","og_site_name":"The Copywriter Club","article_publisher":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/","article_published_time":"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00","article_modified_time":"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png","type":"","width":"","height":""}],"author":"rob Marsh","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@copywriterclub","twitter_site":"@copywriterclub","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"rob Marsh","Est. reading time":"62 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/"},"author":{"name":"rob Marsh","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0"},"headline":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez","datePublished":"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00","dateModified":"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/"},"wordCount":12383,"commentCount":0,"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png","keywords":["Paul Martinez","Podcast"],"articleSection":["Podcast"],"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"CommentAction","name":"Comment","target":["https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#respond"]}]},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/","name":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez - The Copywriter Club","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png","datePublished":"2018-04-10T09:08:09+00:00","dateModified":"2018-10-20T15:06:26+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0"},"description":"Copywriter Paul Martinez talks about how he lost everything in the real estate crash and reinvented his career as a copywriter, how to generate ideas playing around on the internet, how he keeps his skills sharp, how he finds clients (the #1 way that really works) and more.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#primaryimage","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Copywriter-Paul-Martinez.png","width":300,"height":300,"caption":"Copywriter Paul Martinez"},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"TCC Podcast #87: From Losing Everything to the A-List with Paul Martinez"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/","name":"The Copywriter Club","description":"Ideas and habits worth stealing from top copywriters","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0","name":"rob Marsh","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg","caption":"rob Marsh"},"url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/author\/rob\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1455","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1455"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1455\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1455"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1455"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1455"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}