{"id":1476,"date":"2018-04-24T16:53:56","date_gmt":"2018-04-24T09:53:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1476"},"modified":"2018-10-20T08:15:45","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T01:15:45","slug":"building-frameworks-mel-abraham","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Frameworks specialist, Mel Abraham is our guest for the 89th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>. Mel\u2019s got an interesting background that launched him as an expert is building expertise (kind of meta, right?), which means he is the perfect person to talk about client relationships and how to establish your expertise <em>before<\/em> you work with a client. We talked about:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how he learned to leverage his experience to build a real business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to stop exchanging hours for dollars and sell your true value<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the risks and rewards of project pricing<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what you have to do to get clients past the \u201cyellow light\u201d<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how you can help clients see the value of what you do before they hire you<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what to cover in your first call with a potential client<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to know if you\u2019re an expert or a thought leader<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the \u201cprolific power of positioning\u201d and how to use it for your business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0all about frameworks and why you need one<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the steps to follow for creating a framework for your business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how copywriters can build their own credibility<\/p>\n<p>As usual, there\u2019s a lot of good stuff in this episode. To hear it, visit iTunes, Stitcher or open up your favorite podcast app and search for <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em>. Or just scroll down and click\u00a0the play button below. Keep scrolling for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_7281\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1476-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC089.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC089.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC089.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC089.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=1476-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC089.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC089.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/melabraham.mykajabi.com\/store\/5UvruSXA?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><em>Thoughtpreneur Academy<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1630473308\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1630473308&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=440a6d8039d674ad095725b5a8f3b5d3\"><em>The Entrepreneur\u2019s Solution<\/em> by Mel Abraham<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stephencovey.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Stephen Covey<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/entrepreneur-james-wedmore\/\">James Wedmore<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/melabraham.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Mel\u2019s website<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-1478 size-full\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\" alt=\"Frameworks Mel Abraham\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small-50x50.png 50w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 89, as we talk with entrepreneur and business advisor Mel Abraham about building a successful business from nothing, what you need to do to become an influencer and make a real impact, the importance of frameworks, and how to write a national bestseller.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Welcome, Mel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>How are you doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Mel, it\u2019s great to have you here. We\u2019re thrilled to be talking to you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>All right Mel, so let\u2019s just start with your story; how did you end up building your online building empire?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Wow. I guess, you know, it\u2019s a non-traditional thing. It wasn\u2019t like I grew up with the internet; I grew up well before the internet, and I was the traditional CPA. I\u2019m a \u00a0CPA by education, but I was building an expert business before I knew what an expert business was. And it was pre-internet; I needed to build a practice. I needed to get clients; I needed to get known; I needed to get myself out there, and the only way to do it back then was direct mail, you know; networking; speaking; and writing articles. And that\u2019s what I did to do this.<\/p>\n<p>And as time went on, I started to realize that the game that I was sold\u2014swapping hours for dollars\u2014is the absolute worst business model I that could ever be sold to someone, and should be burned at the stake! And I tried to figure out, how do I leverage my expertise, and how do I leverage that stuff? And you know, we may get more into it, but what I was building at the time was as an expert witness, strategic consultant, or businesses. I was helping them build businesses, but I was doing a lot of testimony at trial in litigation, which was such a negative environment, that I got tired of it. And I said, well, where can my skills work and where can I leverage those skills better, and that\u2019s when I started to look at the online space. I was already speaking; I said, so how do I capitalize that? How do I record it? How do I put it out there? And that\u2019s how I really got into this game of the online space, and have been in it now for, well gosh, at least a decade.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>When you talk about trading hours for dollars, it\u2019s got to resonate with almost every one of our listeners, because that\u2019s what copywriters do. I want to know more. What\u2019s the secret; what\u2019s the solution to that problem?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>The solution is simple. It may not be <em>easy<\/em>, though. And first is a mindset shift; an attitude shift. What I realized is that when we talk about selling hours, we\u2019re putting ourselves in the commodity space, and selling in commodity\u2019s the worst thing we can do because the only differentiating point at that point in the consumer\u2019s mind is pricing. But that\u2019s not what we do, and when you talk about copywriters, it\u2019s not what you do. You create value, and what we truly live in today, and I think that anything from employee on up, we need to understand this, is that we live in a value-exchange economy. And so we need to forget price; we need to forget costs, and we need to focus on the value exchange.<\/p>\n<p>What value do I provide? The transformation, if you will. The solution and what value are they going to give up in return? And when we do that, that changes the dynamics of the relationship greatly. So, let me give you a \u201cfor instance\u201d: I get brought into cases that the reality is that, there\u2019s a lot on the line: their businesses are on the line, they\u2019re being sued, and I\u2019m going in to testify. I\u2019m the hired expert to testify. Now they may be sitting at a $20,000,000 lawsuit\u2014let\u2019s reduce the numbers, maybe it\u2019s a $1,000,000 lawsuit\u2014and I go in, I testify and win the case. Now I could quantify my hours and say it, well it took me twenty hours, and at $1,000 an hour, that\u2019s $20,000. And I could say, you know what? I did all right. A thousand bucks an hour is not so bad. The client won a <em>million dollar case<\/em>. Do you think my client would be upset if I send my bill\u2014and I did it upfront\u2014and I said the cost for me to do this is $50,000? And the answer is \u201cno\u201d. They still got the million out of it, they paid fifty more than my hourly rate, but I\u2019m looking at it through value-exchange. But I\u2019m also looking at it as how much of my life am I giving up: how much aggravation, how much of all of that that I\u2019m giving up, and how much value do they get. We need to think about things from a value standpoint, not a cost and price standpoint, which is a shift in mindset.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Okay, so just to get in the weeds, for people who aren\u2019t familiar with you, why were you the expert witness? What is your expertise and specialty?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>So, like I said, I\u2019m educated as a CPA, and I got tired of the traditional stuff: doing the tax returns, and the ticking and tying and bookkeeping, and that kind of stuff. And I realized that, in order for me to get paid well, I needed to do something was that of a higher valued service. And at that time, that industry of being an expert witness\u2014someone that testifies in financial matters\u2014I\u2019d be the type of guy that would get hired to put a Bernie Madoff in jail.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>And so that\u2019s where I took my skills, focusing in on how do you value businesses; how do you testify in businesses; how do you build businesses; how do you buy and sell businesses. So that\u2019s the background that I have, and that\u2019s the choice I made, was to focus in that litigation evaluation realm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Okay, cool. And so, for a lot of copywriters, this value-exchange economy concept might be new, or at least, they might be like, <em>yeah<\/em>\u2014that makes sense. But, it\u2019s so hard for me to do it, especially for new copywriters. Is there a really good first step for someone who\u2019s trading their time for dollars, and wants to make this transition, but is still working on the mindset piece?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>This is where I said that it\u2019s simple but not easy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Right!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>And I think that it becomes a choice, and we end up project-pricing something, and here\u2019s the risk: I could project-price something that when you do the math behind it for the hourly rate, you kind of go, I only got a buck and a half an hour!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Right.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Or, when you do the math behind it you look at it and say, I made $3,000 an hour. And, I think with experience, we start to understand that we can get an idea of the breadth of a project, and say, here\u2019s the value it can provide. I\u2019m going to be writing the sales pages. I know what my conversion rates are. I know what my copy is. I\u2019m going to be writing a sequence of emails. I\u2019m going to be writing a sequence of articles. I\u2019m going to be doing all these things that are going to be leading to this. And you simply price it on a project basis, you start to understand what it\u2019s going to take to do it, the kind of revisions. You\u2019re being real careful in your terms and conditions about the fact that you\u2019re not going to have 3,200 available to them. So you corral your exposure, and you bid at a price, and that\u2019s going to take a little while. I think that, until you get to know how to manage the projects to make sure that you hit it on the mark&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>But after a while, I can look at a project now and say, here\u2019s what it\u2019s going to cost. And I know what\u2019s it going to take me to get done, and I\u2019m <em>good<\/em>with it. Now very few will go south on me, but they still do, and that\u2019s just the cost of doing business, and I think we just need to jump in and say, one\u2014the stuff I do is <em>valuable<\/em>, and makes a difference, and step in and own that. I talk about the difference between \u201cconvincing selling\u201d it, and \u201cconviction selling\u201d it. The worst place we can be is coming from a convincing selling standpoint, and this is an important aspect for copywriters to think about is that we\u2019ve got the red light, we\u2019ve got the green light, and we got the yellow light, like we\u2019re driving. And the most dangerous light is the yellow light, because it\u2019s the light of indecision.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Mmmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>I want everyone that I speak to either know they want to work with me, or don\u2019t know they want to work with me. That\u2019s it. I want them at the red light, or the green light. I don\u2019t want to spend all the energy and time in indecision and trying to convince them. And so I would just put it out there: you start project pricing things, and own it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>I want to go deeper on this \u201cred light, green light, yellow light\u201d idea. What do you do to make sure that people get past that yellow light, so that when they do approach you, are there steps that I can take so that they definitely want to show up, or are there things that I can do, so that when they\u2019re there, they want to work with me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>I think there are. The first thing to do is how you approach the interaction. I approach it whether I\u2019m speaking from stage, or I\u2019m doing a webinar, or a one-on-one, is I kind of approach it with indifference. I look at it and say: I actually don\u2019t care whether I work with you or not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>What I <em>care<\/em>about, and this sounds at the very beginning, but let me finish, is that what I care about is that you have enough information to make a valid and an informed decision. Because you may choose to work with me without enough information, and in the end you come back and say, this wasn\u2019t the right thing. So you may choose <em>not<\/em>to work with me, because you don\u2019t have enough information, and they <em>should\u2019ve<\/em>worked with me. So our job, in the context of sales, is to first look at it and say, what questions do they need answered to be fully informed to make a decision\u2014one. Two, how do I explain and articulate the value I bring with a sense of believe and ownership that\u2019s unquestioned and stand in that. And three, just give the space. They say \u201cthe power\u2019s in the pause\u201d when we talk about negotiation tactics. It\u2019s in the pause! You put it out there: this is what it is; here\u2019s what it does for you; here\u2019s how it can change you; here\u2019s what the price is! And just let them make the decision. The choice isn\u2019t yours. The next person that speaks is going to blow the deal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Okay. So, I love all of this and I want to continue to get into it. So, for a lot of copywriters, the sales call is scary, and you know, confidence is still struggle, and you\u2019re just figuring it out. So, it feels like from what you\u2019re saying, you really need to explain the value on a sales call, potentially. What would you say to a copywriter who\u2019s like, Okay, but I suck at sales; like I don\u2019t feel confident yet in my sales call; how am I supposed to go on there and explain the value? Is that maybe something they should do prior to even jumping on the call through some other marketing asset?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, I think there\u2019s a couple of ways to handle this. One is, the pre-sales call: how do they come into your journey in this context? So, is there enough information out there already that they know the work you do, they know the quality of work you do, and they know what the results are that you\u2019ve done. That then means that when they get on the call, that they\u2019re not an absolute cold lead. There is some warmth there; there is some understanding there. The reason we put out\u2014I put out\u2014regulate content, is that I don\u2019t ever want to be talking to cold leads. I want everyone\u2014by the time we have a conversation, or by the time they go into something, they know me. They <em>trust<\/em>me; they like me; they see the value in me, and they\u2019re warm leads.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one of the things that we want to look at, is, what does the runway look like before the sales call? And if that runway isn\u2019t creating a warm lead, then I think we need to look at that and adjust. The second thing that can happen is this: is, I like sometimes breaking the sales call up into two aspects\u2014two different calls. And the first call, you can call it a \u201ccopy assessment,\u201d a \u201ccopy audit,.\u201d that kind of thing where you explain to the individual, whoever you\u2019re talking, you say, I want to just have an initial call just to understand what your needs are, better understand what your needs are, and to determine <em>if<\/em>or <em>how<\/em>I might be able to help. Which, in that process, we\u2019re presuming uncertainty. We\u2019re presuming, that, listen\u2014I don\u2019t know if I can help you; I know don\u2019t know how I can help you. But, let\u2019s just have a conversation around this so I can look at it, <em>and<\/em>, in the end, if I can\u2019t help you, I\u2019ll politely let you know that I can\u2019t, and I\u2019ll give you some guidance on what you need to do next and where to go. Because this call is really about you, and getting you straightened out and pointed in the right direction is just there for you.<\/p>\n<p>So I take the selling off the table, and I have a real conversation, a short conversation, around what their needs are, what their wants are, what their problems are, what their gaps are&#8230; And if I can truly help them, then great. If I can\u2019t, then I point them in the right direction. But the other part of that call, is I say, if I can\u2019t help you, I\u2019ll politely point you in the right direction. If I think that I can help you, then we\u2019ll set up another call to have a conversation about how, and what that might look like. Is that okay with you? So what I\u2019ve done now is I\u2019ve taken the selling off the table. I have a conversation around it: can I help? Can I not help? If I can help, we\u2019ll set up another call; we\u2019ve already got permission for that second call up front.<\/p>\n<p>Now when we get on that second call, it\u2019s about the plan and the strategy, and they already know that that\u2019s a sales call. They\u2019re coming to it with that purpose. And I think one of the discomforts with some folks is they get on a call, and one side of the conversation thinks it\u2019s an informational call; the other side is looking at it as a sales call, and there\u2019s this awkward shift from information to selling that, I think we just need to be open about and just say: listen, I just want to have a conversation to see if or how I can help. If I can, we\u2019ll set up another time to have that conversation. If not, we\u2019ll move on and I\u2019ll point you in the right direction.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Mel, would you charge for either of those two calls?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2019ve known some people to charge for it&#8230;.I don\u2019t. I\u2019m kind of one of those that says stuff will come back to me. There\u2019s been plenty of times&#8230; Like I had a conversation literally with a guy yesterday as I was driving, and I said listen\u2014I said, I think you\u2019re not at the space where I can support you. Here\u2019s what I think you need to do. I want you to go get this book; I want you to go watch this video; and I want you to do this work. When you\u2019re done with all of that, reach out to me, and we\u2019ll see where we\u2019re at.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>And I think that builds the trust, and I\u2019ve probably spent twenty minutes, twenty-five minutes on the phone with him, and I\u2019m okay with that. I was sitting in traffic anyways.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Laughs<\/em>. But, I think that we\u2019re going to invest time and as we get better at it, that initial call\u2019s going to be a ten or fifteen minute call. You can frame it; you can get on the call and say: listen, I got us booked into the calendar. I know that we have a call; are you still okay with a call? Yeah? Great. So, you know, I have a call right after this in about ten minutes, so let\u2019s get started; let\u2019s just get right to it. I\u2019m going to ask you a couple of questions, and that\u2019s it. So, I\u2019ve already set the expectation up front: it\u2019s a ten-minute call, or it\u2019s a fifteen minute call. We nail it in ten or fifteen minutes. But, at the end of that ten or fifteen minutes, I know if there\u2019s a fit; I know whether we\u2019re going to move forward and go into the next call. So for me, it\u2019s a really quick and easy way to filter something. Now I\u2019m not doing these calls for $500 online programs. These are calls for, you know, 10K, 2K, 3K kinds of projects.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. So, I want to jump back to the before-the-call. It sounds like what you\u2019re talking about it building a thought leadership practice, and I think this is one of the things that you teach. Are there specific things that we should be doing in order to be perceived as that thought leader before, you know, the client arrives at our website or before they hear about us, so that when we get on that call, they\u2019re already in the mindset that we\u2019re the expert that they want to talk to?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Absolutely. And it is what I teach, and the whole idea of being a thought leader, or an influencer, is important. There\u2019s a lot of people out there that are what I call experts. Now experts are people who know <em>stuff<\/em>. And we all know stuff. So pretty much, everyone\u2019s an expert! And the difference between an expert and a thought leader\u2014and expert and an influencer, as I call them, or \u201cthoughtpreneur\u201d\u2014is that those influencers are known for what they know, and what they know makes a difference. And it\u2019s a huge distinction.<\/p>\n<p>When the idea of copy or copy comes up in a specific arena, does your name come up? When I was building my practice back in the nineties with no internet, I realized that the only way I was going to get hired is if people knew who the heck I was. And so I had to be prolific out in the world. Back then, it was networking, speaking and writing. Today, with a smartphone\u2014an iPhone or whatever\u2014you actually have a publishing platform, a radio station, and a TV station all-in-one that can be done very, very cost-effectively, if not <em>free<\/em>. And I think what we need to start doing is pounding that steak in the ground of who we are, what we stand for, who we serve, and how we make a difference. And being really clear and prolific around it, and not in the shadows.<\/p>\n<p>A thought leader is just that\u2014they\u2019re a <em>leader<\/em>; they\u2019re out front; they\u2019re setting a tone. And realize that it\u2019s easy to shrink up and say, well, look\u2014I have my book, <em>The Entrepreneur\u2019s Solution<\/em>. It was realized in 2015. We hit number one on Barnes and Noble; we hit USA Today Bestseller list; we moved 16,000 in two-and-a-half weeks, but that book was realized in 2015. I sat on it<em>for four years<\/em>. I didn\u2019t let it get realized and the reason I didn\u2019t let it get realized is because I kept looking in the bookstores and saying, there\u2019s a whole bunch of books on entrepreneurship. There\u2019s whole bunch of stuff out there. Why do they need another one? And, I sat on it until I had a friend who basically twisted my arm and said, I\u2019m not going to support you in anything else you do until you\u2019ve put this book out there. And, the reality is that there\u2019s 16,000 souls that had got it in their hand that would not have been served if I didn\u2019t do it. And we need to get out of our own way, and realize there is an \u00a0audience for every perspective.<\/p>\n<p>You know what? People that are going to be listening to this\u2014there\u2019s a bunch of different copywriters and they say we got to differentiate ourselves somehow. But some of it is personality; some of it is style. Some of it is content, and know that there\u2019s an audience for each and every one of us, and not be concerned with, oh there\u2019s so much competition. And in this space, there\u2019s experts in leadership, in corporate culture, in fitness and wellness, and if we use that as the mechanism to judge whether we go out there or not, we would never make the decision to go out and do it. And, the bottom line is, is there\u2019s space for all of us. We just come at it from a different perspective. So we need to position ourselves out there\u2014it\u2019s what I call a prolific pattern of positioning\u2014that we need to be consistently putting ourselves out there so people understand what we stand for, how we\u2019re going to show up for the world; what\u2019s the value we bring; what\u2019s the solutions we have.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>All right. So, I love this idea of a prolific pattern of positioning. And putting out content, I think you mentioned it\u2019s the runway before the sales call so people know about you and know what you\u2019re about, and know what you\u2019re capable of before even speaking to you. So if I\u2019m thinking about this and I feel overwhelmed because there are so many different forms on content, and there\u2019s <em>so<\/em>much we can do now with our smartphones I don\u2019t even know where to do start, what advice would you give to copywriters who want to be prolific and feel a bit overwhelmed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>First thing is to figure out where your market\u2019s hanging out, I think. If my market\u2019s not on Pinterest\u2014which they\u2019re not\u2014there\u2019s no reason for me to try and build anything on Pinterest. So we start to carve these things out and say, look, I\u2019m not going to do Pinterest. I don\u2019t even know how to log in to Pinterest; I don\u2019t use Snapchat. You know, so, where are they hanging out is the first place, because I got to access them. So, I figure out where they\u2019re going to hang out, I decide on one social media platform that I\u2019m going to concentrate on, and I\u2019m going to make myself known there. For me, I\u2019m primarily focused right now on Facebook, and then it\u2019ll be Youtube. I am doing some Instagram, but primarily Facebook, and I\u2019m going to continue just keep going there. Everyday there\u2019s a post on Facebook, I\u2019m doing Lives. So we got to figure out where is your customer first. And let\u2019s go to them. It might be LinkedIn!<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s the first thing because you\u2019re right, we can get overwhelmed and say, I got to do all these social media things, and I think we got to stop and say wait a second; if my objective is to get into conversations with my qualified customers, then let me figure out what party they\u2019re at, and let me go to that party. And so that\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>The second is, you know, we have all this talk about avatar, and it\u2019s interesting. I don\u2019t know if we can figure out completely what that avatar is, or that person, but we certainly can understand what we call the Four Courses\u2014their fears and frustrations; their wants and their aspirations. To understand what is going on so we can speak to them. When our customers hear us either in a live video or in an article, or a post, or something, well we speak to them\u2014in fact, I sent out an email to my list last week and it\u2019s really interesting the responses you get. So I get this response from someone who says: I don\u2019t know who you are, and I don\u2019t know how I got on your list, but you\u2019re speaking to exactly where I am in my life right now. Now, I\u2019m curious about how he got on my list, and why he doesn\u2019t know who I am, but by the same token, the email accomplished what it needed to accomplish. I\u2019m speaking to where they are in that moment. That allows them to say, one, they get me. Two, they might be able to help me. Three, maybe I better listen some more. And so, find out where they\u2019re out, understand what their problems that have that they need solved\u2014that they <em>want<\/em>solved\u2014is, and now let\u2019s start dropping the seeds of wisdom that show that you\u2019re the person that can solve them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah I love that. Really familiar I think, so what a lot of copywriters try to do in their businesses. So Mel, you talk a lot about frameworks. Could you take some time and just explain what a framework is, and why we need them, and maybe how we develop our own?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah! Absolutely; I love frameworks. I mean anyone that knows me, any length of time, knows that I\u2019m constantly doodling on my iPad or on flip charts and everything, and here\u2019s why. To me, a framework\u2014what I\u2019m talking about when I\u2019m talking about a framework is a diagram or some sort of graphic depiction of a process, a point, something you\u2019re trying to make up. It\u2019s not a bullet point list. Yeah, some people will call it a framework; I call it a to-do list, or a recipe. It\u2019s not the framework that I want, and here\u2019s why the framework is so important: let\u2019s go back to my days as an expert witness. Most of my stuff that I would do is financial. Every other expert I would go against, they would go and get on the flip chart and they would put all their numbers on the flip chart in columns and rows. They\u2019d explain how they got to their calculations. In front a jury, that isn\u2019t necessarily at the same level of education <em>on that topic<\/em>; they may have higher level of education of the topics, but they\u2019re not on that topic. So we got to educate them.<\/p>\n<p>And as a copywriter, as an entrepreneur, as a thought leader, our job is going to be education. So they would go and put their numbers on the flip chart, and then it would be my turn, and I would look at the jury and I\u2019d say, is it okay if I drew a picture for you? And I would create this graphic, this picture, of what I did for them. Now that just goes into the deliberation room to try and figure out how they\u2019re going to rule in the case. Do you think that they remember the numbers from the other expert, or the picture that I drew?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s going to be the picture every time. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Every. Single. Time. <\/em>The reason I like frameworks is double-fold: one, a framework allows you to take complex ideas and communicate it simply. That\u2019s the one big thing: Second, a framework, because it\u2019s a visual model, is the one tool that transcends and connects the logical side of the brain with the emotional side of the brain. When we take things in visually, it\u2019s an emotional intake. So for instance, we see a little puppy or a baby? There\u2019s an emotional stirring inside of us that happens, some sort of emotion. It\u2019s the same thing with a framework. When the framework is built correctly, \u2018cause there\u2019s a formula to a framework, what happens it, the person that is seeing it inserts themselves into it, and it becomes an emotional connect to it. The second part of it is that because there\u2019s structure\u2014there\u2019s boxes, there\u2019s circles, there\u2019s triangles, there\u2019s lines, and there\u2019s <em>data<\/em>attached to it\u2014it appeals to the logical side. So it\u2019s the one tool that we can use when done correctly, that connects emotional side which is really what gets their attention, and then gets the logical side engages, which is what supports their decision.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Mel, can you simplify this for us? What type of frameworks do we need as copywriters, and how can we use them most effectively?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>It can be simply, but we can overcomplicate it. So first thing\u2019s first: realize that frameworks are used for different things. There\u2019s six types of frameworks that can be built for different purposes. There\u2019s two primary frameworks that you\u2019re probably talking about: one is what I call a process framework. Here\u2019s the process we use. The second is what I call a value framework, a value visual, which explains the reason why. And so those are two frameworks that every thought leader should have in place that are signature to them\u2014that aren\u2019t generic\u2014that become there\u2019s, that become associated&#8230; If I turned around, I put four boxes up on a flip chart and I put <em>urgent<\/em><u>,<\/u>versus <em>important<\/em>up there, who do you think of? Stephen Covey. Because he\u2019s indelibly attached to that framework as a signature framework.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what you want, is that someone that says\u2014well, you know what, why I like Kira? She does this copywriting thing, and you know what? And they sit down and they draw up a framework. She does this; I don\u2019t know how it completely works, but this is what she does, and it goes over here&#8230; That\u2019s what we want, because that becomes memorable, replicable, but is attached to you.<\/p>\n<p>So, back to your question, there\u2019s four elements to every framework, and this is what I called framework formula that need to be considered. First is the formation: the shapes that you use. You don\u2019t just slap shapes together, \u2018cause every shape has a different emotional response or psychological impact. A triangle can give direction, elevation&#8230;it can give a sense of movement. A rectangle or a square can give boundaries, or a circle could be inclusion or exclusion, as an example. So the first thing we need to understand is, am I creating a framework that includes? Excludes? Gives boundaries in place? Gives direction? \u2018Cause that\u2019s going to make a difference, in the shapes that I use. So the formation\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>The second is the information: what information do I want to get across to them? And I\u2019m going to say three to five bits of information. If we start to go beyond that, we\u2019re going to confuse them. So when I start my presentation on thought leadership, I say: listen, there\u2019s two things that you need to be able to master. The first is what you know, the knowledge, okay? The second is your notoriety\u2014<em>how<\/em>you\u2019re known. So it\u2019s what you know, and how you known that we got to master. Now the reason I did that is because everyone will go, well <em>I<\/em>can do that, there\u2019s only two things! But below those two things, there\u2019s more layers and levels, but if I went to them with the whole thing at once, I didn\u2019t get their buyoff on the premise and the simplicity of it all at the get-go, and I\u2019m going to lose them. So our frameworks need to be simple enough that we get our customers to go, <em>I can do that<\/em>. That means that we have three to five bits of information, and that\u2019s it. So the second piece is the information.<\/p>\n<p>The third and fourth piece is what people miss when they create their frameworks. The third piece is what\u2019s the <em>emotion<\/em>that you want? So, formation; information; <em>emotion<\/em>. What do I want them to feel? Do I want them to feel aspiration? Do I want them to feel desire? Do I want them to feel hope? Do I want them to feel frustration? Do I want them to feel angst? Because we can build it in that way. For instance, I have a framework that says, that basically is an assessment that says, <em>are you a dabbler<\/em>? Well people don\u2019t want to be a dabbler! I was working with a guy who works with people in the health and wellness, and we created a framework, and at the lowest rung on his framework, it said <em>derelict.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, <em>laughs<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>How did people want to be a derelict, you know? But we use it to create a psychological impact, an emotion, to drive them to a place where they want to be. Not to manipulate them, but to get them to see clearly where they are and where they want to be. So that\u2019s the emotion side. And then, the fourth thing is the <em>orchestration<\/em>. So we have formation, information, emotion, and <em>orchestration<\/em>. When we create frameworks, when we just slap them up there as a graphic&#8230; Now sometimes we don\u2019t have a choice, when you turn around and put it on a website or something, it\u2019s just there. But the more powerful way to do it is to co-create it with the person.<\/p>\n<p>So when I\u2019m doing my webinars, or I\u2019m speaking on stage, it\u2019s me with a blank chart, and we\u2019re drawing it together, which allows us to have this orchestration\u2014this dance\u2014around co-creating something, that allows them to invest their energy, their time, and their tension into it so they have a much more vested interest in what\u2019s going on. I mean, if you think about Wheel of Fortune, the cool thing was like, here\u2019s Vanna White turning the letters around and you\u2019re going, I think I know what it is! And it\u2019s the same thing\u2014if I draw three circles up on a flip chart, and I put a word in one of the circles, they\u2019re going, I wonder what the other two circles are! And I got them invested in the outcome. And so, when we do this, if I have a chance, or if I have a choice, i want to build the orchestration of the framework in a way that drives their emotions, drives their understanding, and drives the psychology of what I want them to think in the process. So that was a long way to kind of answer your question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>I love this though, because I\u2019m thinking through how I can use this on my own page as well how to use it for clients. This is something that, especially when I look at copy, sales pages, even blog posts or ebooks or whatever it is, we get into explaining things with words, and we forget that illustrating something with a framework visually can be so powerful. So I\u2019m wondering, in addition to the process and the value frameworks that you talked about what are some of the other areas that we can build frameworks for ourselves or for our clients?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Let me see if I can land this, and then I\u2019ll come back to your question. Is that okay?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Oh, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>So let me just give you a framework that I use for building a lead magnet. And, if you think about three circles that are intertwined, that are interlaced, so like Venn Diagram&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>&#8230;so, what does a lead magnet\u2014and this is the way to explain it\u2014I said, what does a lead magnet need to do? It needs to do three things. I need it to engage, I need it to inspire, and I need it to educate. \u2018Cause that\u2019s what\u2019s going to cause a conversion. So, and I can easily talk about a lead magnet, but when I draw those things out, and I say, so the first thing we got to do is we got to get \u00a0lead magnet that engages, and I draw one circle and I say, engage them and let\u2019s talk about the keys to creating that engagement. The other thing that the lead magnet needs to do is inspire them to do something more! And so I draw this other circle and I write in <em>inspire<\/em>, and I said, and the cool thing is that when you engage and when you inspire them, in-between the two where they intersect, it creates loyalty. Because it builds trust. And then I draw the edge again\u2014that\u2019s how this starts to play out, is that we can take what we could easily do in a to-do list, but create a graphic depiction of it that brings it to life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah I love it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:<\/strong> So, going back to your question, so I said that there\u2019s a value visual\u2014a value framework\u2014there\u2019s a process framework, there\u2019s a principle framework: basically this is the stuff you need to know a \u201cwhat\u201d framework. Typically those are 4&#215;4, 3&#215;3 matrices of what do you need to do type of things. There\u2019s an evolution framework\u2014this is an \u201cif\u201d framework: <em>if<\/em>I do this, <em>this<\/em>happens. There\u2019s an urgency framework: this is something where I\u2019m trying to get them to make their decisions immediately. What\u2019s the cost of inaction, basically. And then there\u2019s a\u2014what I call the genius framework, which is basically my overarching business model framework. And so those are the six types of frameworks. The ones that are most important at the offset for anyone is the process framework, then the value visual. Because the process framework will explain what you do and how it gets done; the value visual will explain <em>why<\/em>it\u2019s a value, and what it\u2019s going to give them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Where can we learn more about how to actually build these frameworks for, not only our own business, so that we can market ourselves, but also for our clients, to help our clients communicate more effectively?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>And so&#8230;.<em>chuckles<\/em>&#8230; So I don\u2019t want to be self-promotion, but I\u2019m going to say this, <em>laughs<\/em>&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, go ahead!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>All right. Because my whole training in Thoughtpreneur Academy, it\u2019s all about how do we <em>extract<\/em>your knowledge, your wisdom, your way of doing things and package it in signature frameworks and proprietary processes that bring it to life and create distinction in the marketplace. That\u2019s part of it, literally going in, because there\u2019s a process to creating a Venn Diagram; there\u2019s a process to creating all of that, which obviously takes time to go through. And I go through that in the training.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing that we can do is, you got to get exposed to it; be aware of it. I look at things, it drives my wife crazy, because I see people doing things, and I\u2019ll go, there\u2019s framework for that! You know our friend James Wedmore, he was speaking at one of his live events, and I was sitting in the front row with my iPad, and he could see me doodling, and at the break, he goes, what were you doing? And I showed him just the one thing that I drew, and I said, this is your whole business! He\u2019s like, you\u2019re like the cartoonist at Disneyland that just draws the picture of a someone. But it\u2019s a way of thinking that allows you to say, how do I simplify it?<\/p>\n<p>So, in that perspective, we want you to hang out with people who are trying to think that way, because I think that that helps. Just like me\u2014I\u2019m not a copywriter. I want to get better at writing, so I read a lot of copy and I do that. That\u2019s not where my focus is, so I\u2019m never going to be the <em>best <\/em>copywriter, but at least I have some discerning of, and I think that we need to do that. So the other thing they could do is&#8230; I have a private, free Facebook group call The Influencer\u2019s Dojo, that we got 4,000 people in it, but I post in there regularly, and there\u2019s some free videos and stuff in there that go through it. But by and large, here\u2019s the key: you got to start doing it. The only way you know whether it\u2019s going to have the impact and the effect it\u2019s going to have is to put it out into the world.<\/p>\n<p>You can\u2019t sharpen the axe until you put it against the stone, and the way to do it is to get in front of people one-on-one&#8230;that\u2019s the safest way. You can do it one-on-a-thousand, but if you screw it up, then a thousand people know you screwed it up. But one-on-one, and you orchestrate, you walk through the framework, and see their response! If it didn\u2019t get the emotional response, if it didn\u2019t get the psychological response, if you got questions and you know that I got to go back to the drawing board\u2014not scrap it, but <em>tweak<\/em>it, because changing a name, changing a word, can have an impact.<\/p>\n<p>I was speaking to an audience; everything that I\u2019m talking about is really what copywriters do. It\u2019s about communication, it\u2019s about psychology, it\u2019s about influence&#8230;it\u2019s about all of that! Here I was going to speak at a Keynote Conference, and I\u2019d done work with this conference before, and I presented one of my models to them, and I used the term <em>influencer<\/em>, because that resonates with me. With them, it didn\u2019t resonate, and I was having a conversation with them, and one of the people said, what do you mean by influencer? And I described it and he says, oh, you mean an <em>authority!<\/em>So when I went there to do the keynote for the conference this past December, in that model that I create for him when I presented it, I changed the word <em>influencer <\/em>to <em>authority. <\/em>But that one word change just allowed them\u2014because if they didn\u2019t understand it, they put a mental block up, they don\u2019t listen to the rest of I\u2014but I got that authority, so now I turned around, I used the word <em>authority; <\/em>I use their language all of a sudden. But I wouldn\u2019t have known that if I didn\u2019t put it out into the world and have the conversation with them; now I turn around and I bridge it to influencer.<\/p>\n<p>So, to me, here\u2019s what an authority is: they become an influencer in an industry because they <em>lead the thinking<\/em>in the industry. Now, I can use the terms <em>authority<\/em>and<em>influencer<\/em>interchangeably. But had I never put it out there, and never had the conversation with them, I wouldn\u2019t have known to, in that industry, start with the word <em>authority <\/em>before I move to the word <em>influencer<\/em>. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Total sense, yeah. I mean it comes down to knowing your audience, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>How can copywriters use these frameworks to really stand out and attract more attention and build more credibility and value in their own services?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>I think the first thing before I did that is, do an internal search of what is my unique DNA. What my core genius is. And it\u2019s not the generic term of <em>copywriting<\/em>. It\u2019s something beyond that; it\u2019s something different. It\u2019s a slant, it\u2019s a perspective; it\u2019s a uniqueness that I bring to that page, that allows me to then position myself with that. So the first thing is to understand what my core genius is. Then once I understand what my core genius us, ask myself, what problems does that core genius solve? And look for the markets that have those problems. And I would then build my offerings towards that. So, once I know that, I am a big proponent of live video\u2014if you can, then I\u2019m going to say that you start blog, and you start putting content out there that gets your unique perspective, your core genius out in the marketplace in a branded way that sets you apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>I love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. I don\u2019t know if you need to do a course offering, per se, but I think we need to do programs in the sense of content, and getting out there. Maybe it\u2019s guest spots like this; it\u2019s live videos; it\u2019s interactions in a Facebook group, or a LinkedIn group, and it\u2019s giving guidance like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, really good stuff. Mel, oftentimes we have guests come on and they\u2019re talking, and I\u2019m thinking along the lines of, yeah, I kind of know this stuff, this is a really good reminder, but you\u2019ve got me thinking about things that I\u2019ve not ever thought about in my business before that I probably should have, and so I really appreciate what you\u2019ve shared with us and with our audience. I\u2019m learning here, and I love that, and hopefully everybody else who\u2019s listening is finding value in that. So thank you so much for coming in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>This is awesome; I mean, if you can\u2019t tell, I can talk about this for days. It\u2019s huge; thought leadership is huge. I think it\u2019s a new economy in the sense that if we do it right\u2014huge opportunity in the sense that our society, and I think our global world, is starved for a new way of thinking, and a new leader, and it\u2019s not coming from the media, it\u2019s not coming from the politicians. It\u2019s going to come from the individuals with their boots on the ground, saying follow me, I think I have a new way, and that\u2019s what copywriters can do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>So if somebody wants to connect with you, or learn more about you, or dive more into your book, or to frameworks, where can they find out and know more about you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>There\u2019s a couple of places. My main website is melabraham.com, and so they can find out a lot about me there. The Influencer\u2019s Dojo, which is the Facebook place, is a great place, and then they can go to thoughtpreneuracademy.com to find out more about some of the training and deeper-dive into the influencer model, and thought leadership, and frameworks, and proprietary processes, and creating intellectual property. I have a free&#8230;it\u2019s a roll-up-your-sleeves 90-minute training that you can get access to also through that, that you can watch, that walks through, and you\u2019ll see frameworks in action.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Perfect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:\u00a0<\/strong>Thank you Mel!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, thanks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Mel:\u00a0<\/strong>Thanks, Rob! Thanks Kira! This was awesome. Thanks for asking me.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. \u00a0If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes, and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Frameworks specialist, Mel Abraham is our guest for the 89th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast. Mel\u2019s got an interesting background that launched him as an expert is building expertise (kind [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[114,3],"class_list":["post-1476","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-mel-abraham","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the &quot;yellow light&quot; with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you&#039;re an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the &quot;yellow light&quot; with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you&#039;re an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"rob Marsh\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@copywriterclub\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@copywriterclub\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"rob Marsh\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"44 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"rob Marsh\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\"},\"headline\":\"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham\",\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\"},\"wordCount\":8723,\"commentCount\":0,\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\",\"keywords\":[\"Mel Abraham\",\"Podcast\"],\"articleSection\":[\"Podcast\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\",\"name\":\"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\",\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\"},\"description\":\"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the \\\"yellow light\\\" with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you're an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.\",\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png\",\"width\":300,\"height\":300,\"caption\":\"Frameworks Mel Abraham\"},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/\",\"name\":\"The Copywriter Club\",\"description\":\"Ideas and habits worth stealing from top copywriters\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0\",\"name\":\"rob Marsh\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg\",\"caption\":\"rob Marsh\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/author\/rob\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club","description":"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the \"yellow light\" with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you're an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club","og_description":"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the \"yellow light\" with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you're an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.","og_url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/","og_site_name":"The Copywriter Club","article_publisher":"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/","article_published_time":"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00","article_modified_time":"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png","type":"","width":"","height":""}],"author":"rob Marsh","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_creator":"@copywriterclub","twitter_site":"@copywriterclub","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"rob Marsh","Est. reading time":"44 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/"},"author":{"name":"rob Marsh","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0"},"headline":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham","datePublished":"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00","dateModified":"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/"},"wordCount":8723,"commentCount":0,"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png","keywords":["Mel Abraham","Podcast"],"articleSection":["Podcast"],"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"CommentAction","name":"Comment","target":["https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#respond"]}]},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/","name":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham - The Copywriter Club","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png","datePublished":"2018-04-24T09:53:56+00:00","dateModified":"2018-10-20T01:15:45+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0"},"description":"Authority expert Mel Abraham talks about how to build your platform and authority, getting past the \"yellow light\" with clients, the first client call, frameworks, and how to know if you're an expert or a thought leader. Get this in your earbuds now.","breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#primaryimage","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png","contentUrl":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/Mel-Abraham-Small.png","width":300,"height":300,"caption":"Frameworks Mel Abraham"},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/building-frameworks-mel-abraham\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"TCC Podcast #89: Building Frameworks with Mel Abraham"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#website","url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/","name":"The Copywriter Club","description":"Ideas and habits worth stealing from top copywriters","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/c4c8cf6df1aaafdf81ad4d64884696a0","name":"rob Marsh","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/4f6076aa3cc5830d04b76cee79c3d108f2edb50783afbf30fd2d558269d07ce0?s=96&d=monsterid&r=pg","caption":"rob Marsh"},"url":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/author\/rob\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1476","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1476"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1476\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1476"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1476"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1476"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}