{"id":1505,"date":"2018-05-15T16:29:55","date_gmt":"2018-05-15T09:29:55","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=1505"},"modified":"2018-10-20T08:12:22","modified_gmt":"2018-10-20T01:12:22","slug":"found-money-blueprint-eric-bakey","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/found-money-blueprint-eric-bakey\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #92: The &#8220;Found Money&#8221; Blueprint with Eric Bakey"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and Marketing Consultant, Eric Bakey, steps into the studio with Kira and Rob for the 92nd episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>. We met Eric a few months ago and got to talking about his approach to his business. It\u2019s different than a lot of other copywriters\u2019, so we thought it would be interesting to talk about how he works with his clients. In this interview, we cover:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0how Eric went from the army to construction to writing a book to copywriting<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why he doesn\u2019t call himself a copywriter (even though he writes copy)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0Eric\u2019s onboarding process and the \u201cfound money\u201d blueprint<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the \u201c15 minutes -&gt; hour -&gt; day -&gt; long term contract\u201d roadmap<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he connected with Dan Kennedy (and the results for his business)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what you need to know about packaging your services like Eric<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he uses sketches in his customer interactions<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what he does when clients buy the \u201cfound money\u201d blueprint<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to set up a retainer model so you don\u2019t get burned<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why Eric treats his copy the same way an artist treats her work<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he turned $80 of Facebook ads into $30,000 in sales<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0Eric\u2019s book recommendation for building a steady stream of sales<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why it\u2019s important to create a list of your best 100 clients<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what Eric\u2019s regular work day looks like<\/p>\n<p>And if that weren\u2019t enough, we asked Eric how he uses cartoons in his business and why there are so many opportunities for copywriters today. We also sneaked in a question about his favorite tattoo (he has quite a few to choose from). Ready to hear it? Visit iTunes, Stitcher or your favorite podcast app. Or scroll down and click\u00a0the play button below, where you\u2019ll also find lots of links and a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_3771\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-1505-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC092EB.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC092EB.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC092EB.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a 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title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0997460040\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0997460040&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=239f8c9b0ea15892e19d7a282b5a02e5\"><em>Strength from Within<\/em> by Eric Bakey<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/jockopodcast.com\">Jocko Willink<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/dankennedygkic\/\">Dan Kennedy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/store.nobsinnercircle.com\/group-6\/renegade-millionaire\/renegade-millionaire-system-cd-dvd-manual-and-book.html#.Wvo_7y8lRTY\">Renegade Millionaire<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/2806285887\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=2806285887&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=94681ac744f780a377afa78e8341afda\"><em>Business Model Canvas<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1591842158\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1591842158&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=54c38a1fb0728c8bed924531375de380\"><em>Ultimate Sales Machine<\/em> by Chet Holmes<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B000MQZS2W\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B000MQZS2W&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=82852070d012bfd08ae65c49e6189bb4\"><em>93 Extraordinary Referral Systems<\/em> by Jay Abraham<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/brain-auditor-sean-dsouza\/\">Sean D\u2019Souza<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/how-to-find-big-ideas-joe-schriefer\/\">Joe Schriefer<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/how-to-find-big-ideas-joe-schriefer\/\">Ray Edwards<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 92 as we chat with author, copywriter, and combat vet, Eric Bakey, about his long and winding road to copywriting the \u201cFound Money\u201d Blueprint, cartooning, writing for his niche vet-preneurs, and which of his one or two tattoos is his favorite.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Welcome, Eric.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Welcome, Eric.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, we\u2019re thrilled.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, great to have you. So we met you through Brian Kurtz\u2019s Titans Masterclass. We\u2019re both excited to hear more about your story, which is a great place to start. How did you end up as a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I joined the Army after high school, and I learned how to blow stuff up and mop floors. Neither of them are very lucrative, so I had to start all over again into construction when I got out. I was sick of working and building someone else\u2019s empire, so I decided to write a book as an escape from the corporate world. And then I learned that the publisher, after they make the initial push for your book, they do not care about whether you sell anymore. So I had to start writing copy if I wanted to sell any books, and you have to sell a lot of books if you want to make any money. That\u2019s how I kind of how I got started in copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So tell us a little bit about your book. If that\u2019s the doorway to get into copywriting, why did you decide to write it? What does it cover and when you started to promote it, what are some of the things that you learned in order to make that happen?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So I was following the typical internet marketing pyramid in that I was going to use the book as a front end to my online personal training business. So the book is called Strength From Within: The Anti-Meathead Approach To Fitness. You\u2019ve got to own your keywords, so if you type in \u201cAnti-Meathead,\u201d it\u2019s number one on Amazon and Google. And it was really to support my online personal training business. It\u2019s the fastest way to get unbelievably strong without going to the gym. And it kind of dialed in my USP after writing the book and after being book-solid as a personal trainer. But I decided that I really like growing businesses more than I like growing biceps. So I transitioned to a copywriting business exclusively.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow, okay. So what does your business look like today? What do you spend your time on? What services do you offer?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 When people ask me what I do, I tell them I\u2019m a combat imagineer. And they go, \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 What does that &#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 And so I ask people, \u201cDo you know how much you can spend in order to acquire your best customers?\u201d And of course they don\u2019t, typically. So then again, I create problems for people, and I\u2019m an ethical troublemaker. And so I kind of just play with people a little bit, and they find out that &#8230; \u201cWow, I need somebody like you on my team.\u201d So I get people &#8230; Mostly a direct marketing consultant for insider lingo, but most consultants are not really all that effective. So I decided to not call myself a copywriter or sell my widget, but to make something a league of my own. A little bit difficult.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, I like that. So why don\u2019t you call yourself a copywriter? Because you\u2019re definitely writing copy. So what\u2019s the reasoning behind that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I will write copy. I write a lot of copy. But often, the businesses are not ready for copy. They come to me for copy, but they\u2019re not really ready for it. I have a whole four-module process before I ever even write copy for somebody that allows them to scale without spending a cent on advertising. Being a copywriter, I would love to get them to the point where they\u2019re ready to write me a big, fat check for copywriting and royalties and all that, but we need to get them dialed into their most effective before they ever spend a cent on copywriting or advertising or anything like that. I hopefully build them up to a point where hiring me to write copy is a no-brainer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I\u2019m really intrigued by how you work with your clients and your process for it. Would you be able to walk us through like what does a typical engagement with you look like? Where does the customer come from and how do you go through those four modules until you get to the point where you are either writing copy or you are doing some other kind of consulting with them where you\u2019re earning real money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So I definitely am earning real money on the rip. I wanted to figure out how to get paid for my research phase and how to make research sexy for the clients I work with because nobody really wants to do that, and it\u2019s really what you need to do in order to write effective copy. So I\u2019ll talk to anybody for 15 minutes, and I want to make the 15-minute call not a strategy session, so I called it a triage call where I help them stop hemorrhaging cash from whatever their marketing is doing. I mean, marketing is a matter of survival, and I\u2019ve just kind of dialed in the words that I know people &#8230; That get their attention. And that\u2019s copywriting, that\u2019s sales scripting. So I will talk to anybody for 15 minutes. If they seem like a good fit, then I do my hour-long process, which is really they\u2019re on the hook for an hour, but it\u2019s a half a day of consulting. If they like my Found Money Blueprint, I don\u2019t know whether that can help them or not, but I can deliver them a one-page strategic plan to find cash.<\/p>\n<p>If they want my help to go get it, then they can hire me for a day. And then during the day, we outline the entire communications strategy, and sometimes that involves writing copy, and sometimes it doesn\u2019t. And they have teams that want to write their copy, and I can chief some of their stuff, and we kind of go from there. If they want me after the day, they can put me on retainer or write copy. It\u2019s kind of up to the client.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And are those the four modules, starting with the triage call and then stepping through? Or are the four modules you mentioned something different?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, it was 15 minutes will get you an hour. An hour will get you a day. A day will get you a month, and each one of those modules is a month. About after four to six months, then I can start writing copy for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay. Interesting. Yeah, so lots of questions about this, but I want to go back to your combat vet experience before we leave that altogether because obviously most people who serve in the armed forces, that becomes a really big part of them. I think that is a part of who you serve at least in some of your copywriting business. What did you take from your experience in the military that informs what you do today in your copywriting business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So I was really afraid to look at my background and apply it to copywriting. It was until I got pushed by Jocko Willink &#8230; He actually wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. And he started doing these musters, and he called me out at one of these musters. He actually wrote the book describing the heroism of my specific unit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 And we all look up to the Navy Seals because that\u2019s what you see on Hollywood, and they really are badass. The level of training, they\u2019re the 1% of the 1% top tier. So whenever you go into a bar or hang out with guys or whatever, it\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, I was in the military.\u201d It always leads to some questions that I don\u2019t really feel like answering. So I never really wanted to lead with it especially as I create this new identity as a copywriter. I never really wanted to lead with the military thing. But I got called out by Jocko because I swung a hammer and rode a bulldozer into combat. And they were talking about how badass we were because it took a lot of bravery for us to go out and do construction operations. I\u2019ve built a bridge over the Euphrates River under rocket attack and done some pretty cool stuff, but I didn\u2019t really ever want to talk about it. And he gave me the courage to be able to tell that story for people who maybe can\u2019t or are not willing to. So I really had to be vulnerable with kind of the stuff I didn\u2019t want to share or lead with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow. Okay, so are you friends with Jocko?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m closer to Leif. He actually just moved to Boston, but they\u2019re very busy. They\u2019re running an echelon front, which is a Navy Seal-inspired leadership and management consulting business. I\u2019m trying to get Leif to go to the range with me one of these days, and I\u2019ve been running little meetup groups for veterans and veteran entrepreneurs. I\u2019m sitting on the board of a non-profit now called Make A Vet Sweat. So we sponsor gym memberships for veterans of all ages with disabilities, but specifically to help them get off of PTSD prescriptions, all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 All right. So what process did you have to work through to finally share and answer these questions and really put yourself out there, beyond just Jocko calling you out and feeling inspired, what did you have to do? Because so many copywriters have a hard time sharing their story, even though it might be dramatically different from your story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Freud says you only have access to your true self through your friends and your enemies. I just started taking feedback from people who are like, \u201cWow, that\u2019s a really cool story.\u201d I didn\u2019t ever want to do it. I still am hesitant about it, until I started actually putting pen to paper and actually leading with it and actually got a positive result. So really, it takes courage. That\u2019s the first line of my sales letter. It doesn\u2019t take money to make money, it takes courage to make money. So I just put it out there and got a positive result, and I said, \u201cMaybe I should keep on doing that.\u201d But I finally committed to it after I\u2019d had a back and forth, started writing letters to Dan Kennedy. And he took a special interest in me and has been promoting me in his No BS Newsletter. He really just said, \u201cThere is a market for tough guys like you, and if you can kind of whip them into shape and lead them fearlessly, they\u2019ll follow you.\u201d And so I just started doing that, and he keeps on giving me positive reinforcement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s the answer to anything, is positive reinforcement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 From Dan Kennedy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I was going to ask you a different question, but now I want to know. Did you send your letter to Dan Kennedy via fax or did you actually &#8230; How did you connect with him? Because everybody knows, or at least those who do know, Dan Kennedy is a very difficult person to get on the phone or communicate with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 He is a curmudgeon, and so am I. I have tactical empathy, but I\u2019m really kind of the butt-kicker. That\u2019s how I like to be motivated. Actually, that\u2019s how I kind of got into cartooning. I drew a caricature of him and mailed him a letter with a character of him and some samples of my sales letters. I went to Renegade Millionaire and got some clients and just implemented the stuff that he was covering at Renegade Millionaire, and told him that this was what I did and it was awesome. So thank you very much for helping me and a client make a lot of money &#8230; And complete with a caricature of him. And guess what, he responded in turn with a four-paged letter where every single word on that page was mind-boggling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I mean, there\u2019s a really interesting lesson here, right, because you went after somebody who has this huge reputation in the industry as being a curmudgeon, hard to reach, but he\u2019s sort of the guru. And because you did something different, the cartoon, some of your samples, whatever, you connected with him in a way that\u2019s been meaningful for you. I like that it\u2019s the kind of thing that is really difficult to do, but it\u2019s totally doable if you\u2019re willing to put yourself out there, like you said, with courage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 So I want to hear more about the triage and the one-hour. So all those phases, what are you doing during that time? Even during the triage, let\u2019s start there, what does that look like when you\u2019re in it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So everybody is beyond busy. And I don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s the fact that I\u2019m a salesman who learned how to write copy or whether it\u2019s that I can empathize with the people who I\u2019m on the phone with, I just give them confidence that I\u2019m not going to waste their time. So everyone\u2019s willing to talk to you to for 10 or 15 minutes. I get right then and there that I\u2019m not messing around, and I really can help you if you want to be helped. If you\u2019re stuck on stupid and you don\u2019t resonate with what I\u2019m telling you, then go find somebody else who\u2019s going to tell you want you to hear. But I just have the ability to identify where there\u2019s leakage and say, \u201cI can help you stop the bleeding. I can help you get everything you can out of everything you\u2019ve got, but it\u2019s going to take a little bit of time.\u201d I have a process that can help you do that, and I can just have a brief conversation them to say, \u201cHey, I really can help you and I want to help you because I really do care.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, so do you mind sharing how much you charge for the triage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So the triage is absolutely free.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay. And you said 15 minutes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 All right, cool. And then what is the process that you walk them through to figure it out? Is it just more gut instinct where you know their problem based on what they\u2019re telling you or what does that process look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 When somebody schedules a 15-minute with me, I\u2019ll do a little bit of background and pencil some ideas and kind of just start drawing a caricature of their business and have an idea of what they\u2019re at. I always want to get them out of the mindset of whatever widget business they think they\u2019re in, and then challenge them to play at a higher level. And if they\u2019re not communicating that to their market and to their employees and to their past customers and all that, there\u2019s a huge opportunity for us to go deep and play with that a little bit. And I can basically have them wanting more at the end of the 15-minute conversation. I\u2019ll say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s 15 minutes. If you want to actually do anything for real, then schedule an hour call with me.\u201d And it\u2019s kind of devious, but I get them engaged very quickly and wanting more. And I think that\u2019s the key to effective salesmanship.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And as you do that, are you asking specific questions or are you really just taking it as it comes, talking about whatever comes up? Do you go in with sort of a template of what that call is going to look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I do. I have a 15-minute triage call &#8230; I have it on an index card. I know how to get them involved because I\u2019ve had enough of these calls where I know what sentences are working and how to script the sales messages. It\u2019s definitely intentional.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 So then if they want more, they can jump into the one-hour. How much does that cost them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know I do not have any fuzzy numbers, and that\u2019s what\u2019s key about any business. I know how much money I want to make per hour, per day, per minute. So if you want to make a million dollars a year, you need to divide the amount of hours you want to work by your total income. I want to make $500 an hour, and they get half a day of consulting. And because we\u2019re doing half a day of consulting, I\u2019m giving it to them at a reduced rate. So I want to make it $3,551 a day, and divide it by four, so I charge them $1,756.50 for that hour.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wait, wait &#8230; Can you say that one more time. Wait, so how much do you charge them for that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s $1,756.50.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s awesome. Okay, so then they\u2019re working with you. So at that point you\u2019re not saying, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to jump into copy.\u201d Do they need to work through this process before you even talk about copy, or will you jump to copy if they\u2019re ready?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have not been able to go directly to copy at any point in the last three years I\u2019ve been writing copy for clients. I\u2019ve always had to do some kind of research phase. You need to understand where they are, where they\u2019re trying to go, give me the vision. And a lot of times they don\u2019t even have any idea. They don\u2019t know what their uniqueness is. They have no USP. They don\u2019t have any of the stuff that we need. And instead of just me creating it, they\u2019ve been in the market for 10 or 15 &#8230; Well, however long they\u2019ve been in business. Why should I have to guess at that?<\/p>\n<p>So I have a process to dial in their USP very quickly, and I record the call, transcribe it, and I get them at concert pitch, talking about their product. I\u2019ve got the first draft of my sales letter right there. So I\u2019m selling my sawdust like a good entrepreneur should. The research phase is necessary, but nobody wants to pay for it. So how do I make this thing so unbelievably desirable that they\u2019re willing to pay me $1,700 for it? That\u2019s what I do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, just to break it down even more because a lot of copywriters want to charge for the day rate, the half-day rate, so what do they need to know about what works and what doesn\u2019t work when you\u2019re packaging your services this way?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not selling a commodity. Copywriting is a commodity. You can go on Fiver and hire a copywriter. Anybody can open up Google Docs and hang a shingle on the wall saying they\u2019re now a copywriter. Do not sell a commodity. Get out of the commodity business, and that\u2019s exactly what I do for my clients. So don\u2019t sell copy. Sell reduced cost per acquisition, sell increased lifetime values, sell the things that actually matter to a CEO of a business, and sit on the same side of the table as him. Don\u2019t sit across from him and try to sell him your widget because nobody wants to be sold, but they all love to buy. They buy long before they ever pay. So I engineer the whole entire system so that I\u2019m getting paid, and when I\u2019m getting paid, I try to deliver 10 times the value. So when they\u2019re making money just by being around me, it\u2019s a virtuous cycle, and we\u2019re all happy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 And then what\u2019s the deliverable at the end of that half-day. Because it is really the research, how do they feel like they got something out of it when so many of us struggle to package our research?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So they have a recorded copy of the call, they\u2019ve got a transcript of the call, and they have &#8230; I have a bunch of information products that I\u2019m not really ready to go sell. So they get the version 1.0 of my information products. And I draw a business model canvas. There\u2019s a book out there called Business Model Canvas. I show them what their USP actually looks like. It\u2019s just very simple sketches that solve their sales and marketing problems. As a combat engineer, I was trying to build bridges, and now I bridge sales and marketing gaps with simple sketches and compelling copywriting. So I just kind of play off of my life experiences and package it in a unique way that makes it desirable for the business owner.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And at what point does the Found Money Blueprint start to play in here, and what does that cover? What do you do when somebody engages you for that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have them answer my typical copywriting questionnaire, give me some background, show me what is the offer we\u2019re really trying to talk about. I\u2019ve got basic, typical copywriting stuff. And then I\u2019d secret shop their business and record myself while I\u2019m doing it. I\u2019ll pick the phone up and call and say &#8230; It makes it really easy when I get on the phone with the business owner. I\u2019m like, \u201cDo you realize that your front desk person never captured my information, didn\u2019t try to sell me anything. All they\u2019re trying to do is sell me widgets.\u201d And I just kind of make them look at things.<\/p>\n<p>I come with the gift of outside eyes, and I help them see the realities that there\u2019s a lot of room for improvement in their business. Just like the online point of a website is capture lead information. The only point of the phone call is to capture lead information. Anytime someone walks into your store, you need to be capturing the lead information because only 3% of people are ever really ready to buy at any point in time, and so you can follow up with them. You\u2019re leaving a massive amount of money on the table, and really sales is a service. So they\u2019re doing the world injustice if they\u2019re not seeking to serve them in the best way, and that\u2019s typically in follow-up. So yeah, I make them look at it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I love that idea of secret shopping the client and really getting into their processes before they even have the opportunity to tell you what the processes are because you\u2019re sort of almost ahead of them in the process. And then is there a presentation of that information to the client? What are the next steps in the blueprint?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I give them that deliverable. I give them everything I did. So I send them four hours-worth of information. They\u2019re only the hook for one, and they\u2019ve got the first draft of a seven-figure promotion at the end of it. They can either take that information, that research, and go find the lowest bidder for copy &#8230; Ideas are worthless. Ideas really just get you frustrated. So I give them a whole bunch of ideas for stuff to do, and they can go try to hire somebody to go implement on this, but really you only get paid for done. And they can either take this information and go to someone else and try to get them to have the same kind of moxie and direction that I\u2019ve presented them with, or they can just hire me to do it.<\/p>\n<p>We do a whole day where we architect out the whole entire communication strategy, and then I have step one as dial in the USP, step two is articulate and integrate their USP into all of their communications. Step three is working their database and reactivating lost customers and dialing in the front, the first 30-day customer experience. And then the fourth step is joint venture alliances. So they can become a celebrity in their local community and scale the business without ever spending a cent on advertising. So that pretty much takes about four to six months to really get that all dialed in, but it\u2019s a self-building process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 So when you\u2019re working them on the Found Money Blueprint, you\u2019re working with them for four to six months. Or is it that you\u2019re handing them a blueprint and they need to execute, it will take four to six months to see the results?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So it\u2019s all modulized, so at any point they could fire me. And I could fire them too. I\u2019ve got clear deliverables for each step of the way. And if they don\u2019t like the direction I\u2019m going or I don\u2019t like what they\u2019re doing. If they can\u2019t implement the stuff, we can slow down. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. So if they\u2019re not ready to really do all of this at once, I can get to a certain point and stop and come back to them and pick things up where we left them off, instead of trying to demand massive payment upfront and hope this gamble on this promotion &#8230; We\u2019ve got very clear and fixed timelines and deliverables, and it makes it really easy for them to get started, and then pause it or come back to it or buy more of my time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 And how do you get paid for the Found Money Blueprint? Is it more like a retainer or just broken into phases?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, for just the Found Money Blueprint, that\u2019s just an hour-long call. It\u2019s half a day of consulting, but they\u2019re only the hook for an hour, and that\u2019s paid upfront in full. If they don\u2019t feel like they\u2019ve got 10 times the amount value from our time together, then I\u2019ll refund their money and donate $100 to their favorite charity. So it puts the onus on me. I take the risk because I want the money upfront, but so far, I have not yet had to do any charitable donations, although I\u2019m not opposed to it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s a great guarantee though. So how many clients are you working with at one time going through this process?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 The max I\u2019ll ever work with is five. I want to make sure that they get my undivided attention. And while I\u2019m on &#8230; The longer process is basically being put on retainer, and I want to make sure that there\u2019s time for an hour-long call once a week if they want it, and just want to make sure that I can deliver what I promise, and I don\u2019t want to get too far ahead of myself. I never work with more than five. I really feel like the sweet spot is three, but every now and then I\u2019ve got expensive tastes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 So for retainers, I feel like I haven\u2019t worked with retainers. They scare me, but a lot of copywriters do. What would you suggest? How can copywriters set up a retainer model so that it benefits them and doesn\u2019t end up really kind of killing their business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Getting very clear outcomes. When I started with retainers, I said, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll give you 20 hours a month.\u201d And then you\u2019re trading dollars for hours, and as an entrepreneur &#8230; If you just want to be a copywriter, you\u2019ll be a copywriter, charge whatever hourly rate you think you can get away with, and do that. That\u2019s how I got started. But when you really want to shift to being a pre-eminent business of your own, entrepreneurial kind of business, then you need to figure out what makes you unique and how do you design the business so that your operating it at your highest and best use. So there\u2019s clear deliverables, and it\u2019s scalable because &#8230;<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll give you an example. I just got back from a consulting trip with a high end tennis facility out in Seattle. And now that I have this one in Seattle, now I\u2019m going to go to all the tennis facilities in my local area because now I\u2019ve created compelling copy and stuff that\u2019s worked. I\u2019ve got promotions that work in that zip code. So now my work is halfway done for me, so I\u2019ll just go around to a whole bunch of tennis facilities around here. Who wants to buy this thing that I could still charge the same amount for, but it\u2019s going to take me a quarter of the time to create for you. So I just go deep with the vertical.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, I want to explore that idea a little bit more, but before I ask a question about that, your delivering more than copy, it sounds like. It\u2019s not just &#8230; Whatever you\u2019re doing on the retainer, the deliverable isn\u2019t just copy, but you\u2019re doing more consulting, you\u2019re doing idea generation, you\u2019re doing all kinds of stuff. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Correct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay. Cool. So now let\u2019s talk about how you take that and roll it up into a vertical. Like you were saying you develop something for one client. How do you take that and you make it available to other potential clients without violating the information that the client has given you or that client relationship, making sure that all of that\u2019s kosher, but that you can then generate additional revenue from the work that you\u2019ve done in the past?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So salesmen get commissions, authors get royalties, and a copywriter worth his salt should be able to get anything he wants.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I like that quote. Let\u2019s put it on the wall, right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So what I do with a client in Seattle has very little to do with the local market in Austin here. So I am writing copy, and I expect to get royalties on that copy. So I retain intellectual property rights on all of my copy. I\u2019m giving them an area exclusive in the Seattle area that has very little to nothing to do with what I do in Austin. And actually, the more I can help a business in Austin make money, the more I can go back to my client in Seattle and say, \u201cHey, this is working in Austin. Why don\u2019t you try it there?\u201d and vice versa. So it\u2019s actually a benefit to my client that I do work in different areas of the country and basically license my intellectual property just like &#8230; An artist gets paid on his royalties, so why is what we\u2019re doing any different?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, can we go into weeds here because we hear a lot of questions from copywriters, especially new ones, about royalties and how do you even set that up with your clients. Is that something that you really have to earn by working as a copywriter for a couple years before you should even think about asking for royalties? What are some basics, just to point all of us in the right direction?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to make sure that I\u2019m clear on what success looks like. Before I begin any project, it\u2019s vision, goals, strategy, and tactics. And the tactics is the copywriting. So I need to understand the vision of what they\u2019re trying to do. We need to set clear and tangible goals, timelines. And the strategy, there\u2019s lots of different ways to skin a cat, as they say. And I want to make sure that if we\u2019re going to say that the copy is going to make ten customers, and each customer is worth $10,000, I want to make sure that I\u2019m getting a 5% royalty. So then I will take a 2.5% advance on those royalties as payment to get started, and then once we hit the ten sales of $10,000, we\u2019ve made $100,000, then I want my $5,000. And then we can renegotiate.<\/p>\n<p>So you have to set it up for success. Identify what you expect the copy to create for the client. Again, that\u2019s why I\u2019m not selling copy. I\u2019m selling customer acquisition, I\u2019m selling increased margin, I\u2019m selling the fact that you don\u2019t need to have ten salespeople selling this thing belly-to-belly. We can just replace half of your efforts with a really solid online marketing machine. And therefore, if you want my help to do that, I only want 5% of the gross sales. So I\u2019ll take an advance on the royalty to get started. And if it doesn\u2019t work, then I better make sure that I don\u2019t spend all that advance because they should be entitled to receiving some of that future commission back. Because, I mean, I\u2019m getting them to part with future money, which is kind of the best way to sell anything. Like I said, I get 2.5 up front from whatever we\u2019ve decided that the copy is worth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Interesting. Okay. So one of the push-backs we hear a lot when we start talking about royalties is that it\u2019s really difficult to find clients who have the systems in place to measure the particular contribution that a copywriter makers. So they may have other business activities going on that\u2019s bringing in revenue and they\u2019re unable to figure out what\u2019s the actual contribution that my copy might make or your copy might make. How do find clients that are able to overcome that or is there something in your system where you help them set that up so that they can measure your contribution?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s absolutely the case. You should only work with clients that you know you can get results for and that are easy to work with and are not spinning 75 different plates and then commoditize you. So I specifically work with business owners who are making between one and five million dollars a year. And I\u2019ve been in business for years, and I know that I can get them clear and measurable results. And whether they need my team to built out some click funnels assets or any kind of stuff like that with Google Analytics or the digital infrastructure. We can do that, otherwise I can work with their sales and marketing team, and we tie the direct result from my copy into their sales, and we have very clear systems to measure it. Otherwise, I won\u2019t write the copy for them.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s why I work with them in a very different way. You can\u2019t just hire me to write copy because most of the time they can\u2019t actually implement or measure anything, and that\u2019s a frustrating thing for both the copywriter and for the client who\u2019s paid a lot of money for the copy. So I engineer it so that it can\u2019t fail, before I even begin to put pen to paper.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, so for copywriters, they hear that and they\u2019re like, \u201cCool. I want to work with companies that are making between a million and five million dollars. That sounds great, but I\u2019m not just even close to being there. I just started.\u201d Can you just back up a bit and just talk to them about how they can even get there as far as what you need to do in the early stages to gain traction and get clients and put yourself out there, because what you\u2019ve done has worked. You\u2019ve made it to this level, but so many copywriters struggle to even reach that level where they can be more particular about who they work with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 So when I started, I mean Facebook ads were really hot three years ago. And I guess you could still do that, but after spending a lot of time and money dealing with all that stuff, I\u2019ve designed systems that you don\u2019t need to spend any money on advertising. But when I start, I went to my local CrossFit gym and saw that there are only six people in there, and there was room for 25 or 30. I said to the owner, \u201cHey, it costs you the same whether you\u2019re running this class for 6 or 30. Wouldn\u2019t it be great if you had a full class in here every Monday, Wednesday, Friday?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cCool. Well give me $100 for Facebook ads, I\u2019ll run them for this specific class, and when it\u2019s full at the end of the week, then we\u2019ll discuss what it takes to hire me to do this for more than your one class.\u201d So we put $80 in the Facebook ads, and we made over $30,000 in fitness sales.<\/p>\n<p>At that point I said, \u201cHey, I\u2019m onto something.\u201d And I just went to all the gyms that I liked &#8230; I just wanted to workout with my friends, so I just went to all the gyms in the area, offered them the same thing, and I had an ad set and copy that worked, and all I did was just repeat, and stop making it so complicated, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean, that\u2019s copywriting. There are better copywriters out there than me. There\u2019s no doubt there are people who are way more talented than me, but they get in their own way and over-complicate everything. Business owners want to make sales, they want customers, and they want to not have to stress out over hiring outside consultants and vendors. They don\u2019t want what are you trying to sell them, but if you can get them into the dreamland of automated machines them making money while they sleep, and facilitate that, and actually deliver what you promise, you can charge whatever you want.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, what we\u2019re talking about here is systems, right. I mean, you\u2019ve gone beyond the typical systems that copywriters often think about, onboarding, off-boarding, research, and you\u2019re actually systematizing the use of your copy after it\u2019s been created, which I love this idea. And my brain\u2019s kind of going crazy thinking how can I apply this in my own business with my copy clients, and how do I extend that to other people. Outside of the fitness realm, you\u2019ve done this as well. Are there tricks for finding the next step? So once you\u2019ve developed something that\u2019s working is it simply a cold pitch to the next client or is there a better approach than that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have written out my dream 100 clients, and there\u2019s a book called Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes, and I highly recommend any business owner get it. I outlined who are my ideal customers, what does a five-star prospect look like for me, and I only speak to them. I\u2019ve planted the farm and I continue to work the farm. So far I\u2019ve got three of my dream 100 clients already. Once I got the first one, it has made everything else so much easier in my life. So now I\u2019m pretty much by referral, unless you want to go in through my typical sales funnel, but really it\u2019s getting clear on what you want and not being boring. That\u2019s the biggest secret. Don\u2019t hide. I mean, I am kind of painfully introverted myself, but in order to be successful, I had to unlearn boring and go out into the world and make an offer.<\/p>\n<p>So many people are afraid to make the offer and be shut down. And I\u2019ve had to have a lot of conversations before I ever got any real traction with this. And it\u2019s not as simple as just cold emailing people, but that\u2019s how it started. I started with the cold email, trying to write auto-responders for people and trying to do all the things that we think are cool, and I was trying to sell copy, but nobody cares. Nobody cares until you show them what it really even means.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, I just ordered the book. So thank you for the recommendation. It\u2019ll be here tomorrow. Cool. I got distracted on Amazon. But my question is niche, like you\u2019re going deep with your audience, right. You were talking about going into gyms, and then now we can talk about this more about you work with vets. Why is this so important for copywriters to really understand their audience and have that list of 100 dream clients? Why is niche-ing down important?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 You already have a secret and a secret affinity with these people. The vet community is very tight. I\u2019ve tried to push this rock up the hill so hard. I mean, I\u2019m a pretty simple guy, and I\u2019ve done things the hard way my entire life. And it wasn\u2019t until I figure out, okay, what are my actual strengths? Who are the people who actually want to talk to me, and how can I use our secret language, use the secret cool kid handshake? How do I communicate with these people who already want to hear what I\u2019m saying?<\/p>\n<p>And again, Dan Kennedy\u2019s a big mentor of mine. He calls it dog whistles. So how do you dog whistle to your people with only the language that you would know? So stop hiding from your background, embrace it, and figure out how you can leverage that to make more impact.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to go back to something we touched on at the very beginning of our interview with your book. You\u2019ve recently done a collaboration with Laura Hanly, who has been on our podcast before, talking about how to write a book. And you talked about how do you basically grow your readership or the post-writing process for the book, and how you use that in your business. Will you tell us a little bit about the ideas you expressed in that seminar that you put together?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sure. I mean, it really is the same kind of things that we\u2019ve been talking about here. I firmly believe that you need to USP before you do anything else. And then you go and have conversations with people. Does it resonate with them? Then you figure out what is your customer actually worth to you? And if dialing into your lifetime value, your marginal net worth, getting everything you can out of everything you\u2019ve got &#8230; Jay Abraham\u2019s another one of my mentors. And if you can get just one person to refer for you, that doubles the lifetime value of your customer. So it allows you to spend a lot more in order to acquire them, and when you can do that, you can out-muscle Amazon. Amazon cannot spend all that much money to acquire you.<\/p>\n<p>And creating an experience and creating a reason why the people should do business with you and showing up unlike anybody else can because you know what they\u2019re worth because I really, genuinely care &#8230; But I also see a dollar sign on their forehead, and if I can show them a good experience, it doubles. And if I could show them a really good experience &#8230; And again, Jay Abraham\u2019s got a product &#8230; 93 referral systems. So I\u2019ve got 93 different ways to ask for a referral without sounding like a jackass. I can turn that one client into a lot of clients.<\/p>\n<p>So just showing up and doing a good job is really not that hard. It\u2019s really not that complicated. And I\u2019d encourage everybody to look at their past and look for opportunities and people that they can reach out to because, like I said in the beginning of this conversation, it doesn\u2019t take money to make money, it takes courage. And just showing other people how to get what they want is the biggest secret to sales. And finding out that there are people in your arms length, in your three foot world, that you can help them make a lot of money &#8230; Then you really don\u2019t need to look very far.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 All right. This is kind of a random question, but I\u2019m curious. What does your typical day look like? What\u2019s your routine for doing your best work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I get up at 5:30 and begin with some hippy-dippy journaling, meditation stuff. Begin with a strength-training workout because I refuse to start my day with weakness. And then I get all worked up and frothed up, and I go and I wrote copy for three hours after I workout. And then I\u2019m pretty much done for the day. And I\u2019ll have some consulting calls. I really believe that you need to spend two hours on the phone growing your business every single day. So I start my phone calls in the afternoon. On Mondays, I got standup comedy. On Tuesdays, I go to two-step lessons because now that I\u2019m down here in Texas, I want to be able to spin pretty girls around. So Tuesdays are two-step. Wednesday &#8230; I\u2019ve got my activities that I force myself to get outside of my comfort zone. I continually push myself and read and draw cartoons. I\u2019ve got a pretty rigid schedule that I force myself to have a life outside of copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah. You mention cartooning, which we teased in the intro as well, and I\u2019ve seen you take notes at meetings and it\u2019s mostly cartoons, right? Tell us a little bit about that, why you cartoon as opposed to note-take, and how you\u2019ve used those cartoons to make contacts and grow your business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0So I guess I\u2019m kind of learning disabled. That\u2019s probably why I didn\u2019t go to college and just joined the Army. I would read a page in a book and forget every single thing I just read. So I had to figure out a way to get the knowledge nuggets into my brain and simplify the thing, so I would go back &#8230; Because the hardest thing to do is read a book for the second time, but it\u2019s so necessary. So I read it, I take a visual sketch note. These things are in vogue right now, but I take the simplified &#8230; How I take the gray walls of boring text and turn it into something useful &#8230; And I just did it for myself and not for other people. The teacher\u2019s like slapping your hand for doodling, but now I doodle for dollars. So the joke\u2019s on them. It was just a self-serving kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m in Sean D\u2019Souza\u2019s world, and he has a formal cartooning course. And I wanted to take my visual tools and this graphic facilitation, I guess you could call it, and turn it into more of a playful and thought-provoking &#8230; And how do you look at something from directions? And once you get it on paper, you can amplify it and play with it and cartoon it and caricature it. It\u2019s been a thinking game since the very beginning. So Sean helped me dial in that ability to be more playful with my drawings. When I did that, they got more engaging. And now I take visual notes of these very expensive marketing seminars and programs and books and speeches that people are very interested in seeing what I\u2019ve come up with. And now I do graphic facilitation while I\u2019m in my Found Money Blueprint process and my consulting practice. And it\u2019s a sales and marketing cartoon, so marketooning, if you will.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Very cool. So Sean D\u2019Souza, we interviewed him. It\u2019s episode 49 for anyone listening who wants to check that out. My final question for you is what\u2019s the future of copywriting look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there is a tremendous opportunity in copywriting. I\u2019m from Baltimore, and I\u2019ve met with Joe Schriefer at Agora, and really I\u2019m very, very tempted to go work for Agora. Ray Edwards actually talked me out of it. There is so much opportunity everywhere you look. There\u2019s so much terrible marketing. There\u2019s so much lack of regard for customer experience, that all you need to do is partner with a business and say, \u201cLet me communicate with your customers after the first sale.\u201d How often do you get love notes from your favorite place to go spend money? I mean, no restaurant has ever offered me an opportunity to get a free appetizer if I come back on their slowest day of the week. The gyms, they never try to get me to spend any more money on supplements or retail or let me know about what cool things are going on in my neighborhood. And that\u2019s been a huge opportunity for me to throw Sweat and Socialize parties for my fitness facilities. And I just show up, I\u2019m like anybody else, and I encourage everybody else.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s so much opportunity all around you if you stop focusing on just getting paid to write copy, and you just go and create value for the business owners and the clients that the patrons of these businesses &#8230; You can\u2019t help but be paid for what you\u2019re worth. I just see it as a huge opportunity to improve customer experience and improve the communications because people are so connected now, but we\u2019ve never been so disconnected. There\u2019s an opportunity to show up.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m like anybody else. I laugh when people are talking to me about messenger bots because your customer is not an idiot. I will never buy something from some Facebook messenger bot, especially anything that costs any real money. So I think it\u2019s a huge opportunity to connect with people and take them on a customer journey that\u2019s far beyond the first initial sale.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s such good advice. We should probably end there, but I\u2019m going to ruin it by asking one more question, Eric. And that is have you ever thought about getting a tattoo?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have too many. I have too many.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Tell us your favorite because, yeah, if anybody meets you, you\u2019re pretty inked. It\u2019s actually kind of a dramatic look. You look very tough as you walk around, obviously. You\u2019re a strong guy. What\u2019s your favorite tattoo, what\u2019s the story?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 They all have so many stories. I had full sleeves by the time I was 21.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 They told me I would never get a job and that they were going to kick me out of the army and all this kind of stuff. Now, especially in Austin, everybody &#8230; I mean there\u2019s people with tattoos on their faces here, which is kind of strange to me. But I don\u2019t really have a favorite one. They all have a lot of meaning and a lot of stories behind them. And some of them are definitely better than other ones, both in the quality of the ink and the quality of the story. So I don\u2019t really have a favorite. It\u2019s a conversation starter when someone walks up to me and says, \u201cOh, I love your tattoos.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I always say, \u201cWell, yeah. I love them too. That\u2019s why I got them.\u201d And just playfully difficult with people just to draw them into the conversation. Now they\u2019re fun conversation starters, but sorry, I can\u2019t tell you which one\u2019s my favorite. I can show you. You can pick out your favorite if you want.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Fair enough. Eric, if somebody wants to connect with you, learn more about you, maybe even learn more about your blueprint or your process, where would they find you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, it\u2019s pretty simple, Ericbakey.com. E-R-I-C-B-A-K-E-Y.com. And I\u2019ve got a special report on there called, \u201cReturn On Relationship.\u201d It\u2019s the results metrics that actually matter. It shows you how to figure out the lifetime value of your customer, how to improve it, and I also follow up with semi-daily direct marketing doodles, so you can kind of see what I\u2019m doing as far as being playfully difficult with the business owners that I\u2019ve worked with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Very cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0 Awesome. Thank you so much, Eric, for your time and for being so open with us and sharing so much about your business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, hopefully it was helpful. Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019ve been listening to <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit thecopywriterclub.com.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and Marketing Consultant, Eric Bakey, steps into the studio with Kira and Rob for the 92nd episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast. We met Eric a few months ago and [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[116,3],"class_list":["post-1505","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-eric-bakey","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #92: The &quot;Found Money&quot; Blueprint with Eric Bakey - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Copywriter and marketing consultant Eric Bakey talks about his &quot;found money&quot; blueprint, the 4-step roadmap he takes clients through, treating copy like artwork, using cartoons in business, why he doesn&#039;t call himself a copywriter and packaging services.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/found-money-blueprint-eric-bakey\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #92: The &quot;Found Money&quot; 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