{"id":248,"date":"2017-01-26T05:10:56","date_gmt":"2017-01-26T00:10:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=248"},"modified":"2018-01-05T05:42:12","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T22:42:12","slug":"ben-settle","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/ben-settle\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 10: Daily Emails in 10 Minutes a Day with Ben Settle"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In the 10th\u00a0episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, Kira and Rob talk with \u201cdon&#8217;t-call-him-an-A-list copywriter\u201d Ben Settle about whether he really works 10 minutes a day, his process for writing the Email Players newsletter, his approach to learning (and a great list of books and courses he recommends) and a whole bunch of other subjects that copywriters can learn from. The audio is a touch\u00a0fuzzy in parts, but what you\u2019ll take away from this episode more than makes up for it.\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9427\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-248-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC010.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC010.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC010.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a 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via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/elbenbo\/\">elBenbo\u2019s Lair<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Page<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1535359951\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1535359951&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=375832c35022e2b41454e45c5145c777\"><em>Persuasion Secrets of the World&#8217;s Most Charismatic and Influential Villains<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.copyslacker.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">CopySlacker<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1440511411\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1440511411&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=d2dbe41b8d8c932000f459339fce6a10\">Dan Kennedy\u2019s <em>Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em><\/a><br \/>\nJohn Carlton\u2019s <em><a href=\"http:\/\/marketingrebel.com\/kick-ass-copywriting-secrets-of-a-marketing-rebel\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kick Ass Secrets of a Marketing Rebel<\/a><\/em><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0609608002\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0609608002&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=eeb6924ab5733044f7efd70f68fc3b36\"><em>Start with No<\/em> by Jim Camp<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0887232981\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0887232981&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=16b76476b8e2bf299a37188ca734d543\"><em>Breakthrough Advertising<\/em> by Eugene Schwartz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.kenscopyclinic.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ken McCarthy\u2019s Copywriting Clinic<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.thegaryhalbertletter.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Gary Halbert\u2019s Newsletter<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bensettle.com\/blog\/scott-haines-copywriting-interview\/\">Scott Haines<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/marketingbullets.com\/available-on-dvds-for-the-first-and-only-time\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Gray Bencivenga&#8217;s\u00a07 Master Secrets for Copywriters<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/mattfurey.com\/tao-email-copywriting.html?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Matt Furey\u2019s Email Course<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.hardtofindseminars.com\/Jim_Camp_Interview.htm?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Jim Kamp and Michael Senoff Interview<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1484825985\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1484825985&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=9c0dfa301cc37e3f35223a5f0ba93929\"><em>The Boron Letters<\/em> by Gary Halbert<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/milliondollarpublicity.com\">Paul Hartunian\u2019s <em>Million Dollar Publicity<\/em> Course<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.emailplayers.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><em>Email Players<\/em> Newsletter<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.makepeacetotalpackage.com\/archives\/parris-lampropoulos-with-clayton-makepeace\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Parris Lampropolous<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/productlaunchformula.com\/workshop\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Product Launch Formula<\/a><br \/>\nEugene Schwartz talk to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/infositelinks.com\/Free\/2012\/08\/Lost-Secrets-of-Breakthrough-Advertising.pdf\">Philips Publishing<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bly.com\/new\/index.html?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Bob Bly<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.copywriting1.com\/BobBly.htm?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Bob Bly Interview with Michael Sennoff<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.briankurtz.me?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Brian Kurtz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.victorialabalme.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Victoria LaBalme Rock the Room<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/rayedwards.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ray Edwards<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/agorafinancial.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Agora Financial<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/davidldeutsch.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">David Deutch<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00EC9UHWG\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B00EC9UHWG&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=afb4229d1e4d774a4eeaca5e4a9b57bb\">Beverly Hills 90210<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bensettle.com\/blog\/podcast\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ben\u2019s Podcast<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/thepodcastfactory.com\/about\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Jonathan Rivera<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/ryanlee.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ryan Lee<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/thepodcastfactory.com\/ben-settle-antipreneur\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ben\u2019s Old Podcast<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bensettle.com\/p4\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">BenSettle.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/beastofbusiness?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Dan Meredith<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00J0KY6BK\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B00J0KY6BK&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=df1146adf5c08ebddbd02c31c33b1b1b\">Ben\u2019s Zombie books<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work?\u00a0That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 10 as we chat with <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">A-list copywriter<\/a> Ben Settle about mailing his list every day (or more), pulling in six figures by working ten minutes a day (or less), zombie fiction, and stirring up controversy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Hey Rob, hey Ben. How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Ben.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> It is going good. I do have to say one thing, because I gotta keep the record clear on this. I can\u2019t let you guys get away with this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> You\u2019re gonna say you\u2019re not an A-list copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly what I was gonna- I\u2019m not even close to that. Not only am I not in the same league, I\u2019m not even in the same sport as- And I know several of them and I can just tell you, I don\u2019t work as hard as they do. I don\u2019t have their talent either.\u00a0Anyway, I just wanted to clear that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> For the record, I put that in on purpose knowing that you were going to say that exact thing, because I\u2019ve been on your list long enough to know you don\u2019t talk about yourself that way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> And I gotta give you guys some props on something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Ooh, all right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Now, Kira, when you first contacted me and you kind of self-deprecated, you\u2019re like, \u201cWell, the name of our podcast isn\u2019t &#8230; that cool.\u201d Something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Did I say that? Oh no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> But here\u2019s what I think. I think it\u2019s a perfect name because it\u2019s so clear. There is no question what this is about. Like, you\u2019re not trying to get fancy. I actually prefer that, so I wanted to give you guys some-<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Sorry Rob. Rob came up with it, so that\u2019s all him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> It\u2019s not nearly as cool as having a lair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> It\u2019s not a lair. A lair is- Are you guys both in there? Are you both in El Benbo\u2019s lair?<\/p>\n<p>RM: We are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Yeah! I just joined recently.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> God. You know, that\u2019s a whole other podcast in and of itself. It\u2019s so crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Exactly. Hopefully after we\u2019re done talking, we\u2019ll still be part of the lair, we won\u2019t be kicked out. But we\u2019ve got some questions. We really want to dig into the real Ben Settle and what goes on in the background.<\/p>\n<p>Ben, my first question for you has to with a lot of the stuff that you talk about in your email list, and in the recent program you did with AWAI where you talk about working ten minutes a day. To me, that sounds a little bit like one of those claims that just can\u2019t possibly be true. I think you must work way more hours than ten minutes a day.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve written four books in the last couple of months. You write the daily emails. You write this 12-page paper newsletter &#8230; I think it\u2019s 12 pages &#8230; that you send out to your list every month. So, I\u2019m calling bull on the ten minutes a day. Tell us the truth. How do you work? How much do you work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> All right. So, it\u2019s a good question, but if you were really on my list, and really paying attention, you would already know the answer to this. But I\u2019m gonna do it anyway, Rob, because I like you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> I really am on your list. But yeah, let\u2019s do this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> My main thing is my email players\u2019 newsletter. That\u2019s my main thing. It\u2019s not going to be my only main thing soon, but for the last several years, that\u2019s been my main thing.<\/p>\n<p>I get up. I let my dog out first because priorities. I come back in. I get a tall glass of water and I gag down a bunch of health supplements, which I have no idea if they work or not, or just give me the most expensive piss in town. I don\u2019t know. I open the computer up. I write an email to sell email players, and then I\u2019m done. It could be four minutes a day, it could be 15 minutes a day, but generally it doesn\u2019t take me very long. That\u2019s all I have to do.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I will go bonkers, okay? I will go bananas if that\u2019s all I did all day. What am I supposed to do with the rest of my day, you know? That\u2019s when I write novels, I do joint ventures with other stuff, I do podcasts like this. I don\u2019t have to do these things, it\u2019s just fun. But, what I have to do usually only takes me about ten minutes, so in a way you\u2019re right but in a way you\u2019re wrong, like a politician would say.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I have to do it. I have to pull the goal card on that answer because there\u2019s no way- It is what it is, but I only have to work ten minutes. Sometimes I don\u2019t work at all. I\u2019ll go a whole week without doing anything because I\u2019ll just preload the emails up. When I launched my villains book a few weeks ago, I wrote all those emails on a Thursday. It was 16 or 17 emails, that took me a few hours. And then, I didn\u2019t do anything for a week. I didn\u2019t have to write anything.<\/p>\n<p>I did the math on that and it came out to about ten minutes per email. So, yeah. I stand by my ten-minute work day. I really do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>And if we\u2019re gonna add in the other products, though, things like Copy Slacker, obviously you\u2019re working on these, these are the things that keep you sane. It becomes a product that eventually you sell through your list, through the ten-minute emails.\u00a0But there\u2019s a lot of things going on in the lair on a daily basis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Yeah, but I don\u2019t have to do it. I\u2019m in there because it\u2019s freaking pandemonium in there and it\u2019s fun and I\u2019m building this crazy society. I don\u2019t know anyone who\u2019s done with Facebook what we\u2019re doing in there, and it\u2019s not just me. I have some people helping me. Obviously they don\u2019t realize they\u2019re helping me, but they\u2019re helping me. I\u2019m pulling some puppet strings every day. It\u2019s so fun in there that we\u2019ve all started calling it real life in there and everything else is fake life, because so many people spend so much of their time in there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:\u00a0<\/strong>Can you share a little bit more about what\u2019s happening in there? Because I did just recently join, and it sounds even more intriguing now. What makes it different as far as Facebook groups go?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> For one thing, I don\u2019t allow value in there unless I\u2019m doing it. One of my &#8230; who I call my \u201cHead B*tch in Charge\u201d vice president Misty, she\u2019s sort of like an unofficial business partner of mine for the last year or so. She does the introduction voice on my podcast. I\u2019ve partnered with her on some other things. She\u2019s always there to help with stuff. My audience loves her, she loves them. She does things like contests and she does these things called Misty Massacres. I\u2019ll give value, she\u2019ll give value, but no one else is allowed to give value. I literally ban people who try to give value when they know better.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one thing that makes it stand out, because that\u2019s all you ever hear from people. \u201cI need value!\u201d Screw value. What we do is we\u2019re plumbing the depths of human psychology in there. We have these things that we call thread holes. This is where our thread starts and suddenly it\u2019s a thousand comments and it takes ten different twists and turns, and usually we\u2019re talking about real life, deep stuff, the way that people think. We\u2019re not trying to; it\u2019s not something you go in, like, \u201cI want to talk about human psychology.\u201d It just comes out. And the few people who understand that are benefiting from this hugely with their copywriting, with their marketing. People who are in there, just involved in this, and they\u2019re not trying to pike anything, they\u2019re not trying to sell anything, are finding their options going up because they\u2019re just interesting people.<\/p>\n<p>I want people to have personality in there, and what most groups do is they encourage value, which just has people swinging their dicks around trying to act like they\u2019re better than everyone. That\u2019s all they have. They don\u2019t have personality, all they have is value. I\u2019ve reversed that. Now, they have to have a personality if they want to participate, or they get ignored. This is a very new thing. I\u2019ve had it planned out in my mind for months, but I really didn\u2019t start executing it until recently when I had more time to play with it and that sort of thing.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s one of many, many things. I\u2019m building a world in there. I just wrote about this today, I think, actually, in my email. All my emails are preloaded for a while, I\u2019m not sure if it went out today or not. A big influence of mine was Dungeons &amp; Dragons when I was a kid, you had to build worlds. I\u2019m building an actual world. It has its own language; we literally have our own language, lexicon being built in there. It has its own culture, it has borders. I\u2019m always joking around about my immigration and my wall that\u2019s being paid for by the tears of the people I reject. It\u2019s just, I don\u2019t let everyone in. In fact, I probably reject 70% of people if they don\u2019t fit certain criteria. I\u2019m not even sure how Rob got in there, quite frankly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> I wonder about that too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Somehow he got past my wall, I don\u2019t know. He\u2019s an illegal immigrant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, well, this is a selfish question, but as we\u2019re building our club, and we just started the Facebook group for that, we just hit 100 people today, we are trying to add value but we also want it to be our own world. Can we have value and personality and make it interesting and not sickening? Do you have any advice for us based on your experience so far?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. The \u201cNo value\u201d thing is just something I did originally to position myself as something different than my friend Dan Meredith, who\u2019s a genius with Facebook groups. I learned a lot from him. His is all about value. His is all about sharing feelings and all this stuff. I\u2019m the opposite. I\u2019m in there with constant satire and entertainment; you don\u2019t even know if I\u2019m being serious or not.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a girl in there who I call her my main chick. I\u2019ve got side chicks in there, I\u2019ve got main chick in there, I\u2019ve got a booty call in there. And nobody knows if I\u2019m being serious or not. Her dad has been a fan of mine for a very long time and made her read my emails when she was 18 years old, and she\u2019s been reading them for like ten years. So I made her my main chick in there, right? And I made this video for her dad because she asked me to: a Merry Grinchmas video. I basically told her dad in this video I plan to impregnate her and give her my demon seed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:\u00a0<\/strong>Yikes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, nobody knows if I\u2019m being- You can\u2019t tell. I\u2019m getting private messages. \u201cBen, are you really?\u201d And that\u2019s the beauty of it. It\u2019s satire and entertainment, which is the future, in my opinion, of marketing, is entertainment. That\u2019s the whole point. It keeps people constantly on their toes, it never gets boring.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s my goal with it. Your goal might be completely different, so it depends on your mission and purpose with this, with what your trying to do with your Facebook group. To me, you can get value anywhere. I tell people, \u201cIf you want value, go to this group or that group.\u201d I\u2019ll send people to your guys\u2019 group if you want. But I don\u2019t want to do that; I want to have deep, psychological conversations where people don\u2019t even realize they\u2019re involved in this experiment I\u2019m doing, and they love it. And they know what I\u2019m doing, but they don\u2019t know when I\u2019m doing it. So its a whole different thing. It\u2019s six months of just deep thought and trying to figure it out.<\/p>\n<p>With what you guys are doing, whatever your goal is, is to position yourselves as high in the copywriting world or whatever, you\u2019d want to go about it differently. So it really just depends on what you guys want or are trying to achieve.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, good point. Earlier, I think, this week, you wrote about your 10x rule for reading books. And this seems like a really good idea that I think a lot of people who might be interested, listening to our podcast that maybe aren\u2019t exposed to the way you conduct your business, or are on your list, could really benefit from. Will you talk a little bit about why, when you find a <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/ultimate-copywriter-book-resource-list\/\">great copywriting book<\/a>, you read it a minimum of ten times? Why you focus so hard on that and why your not out there looking for new stuff?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s weird because the only reason I figured this out was because I was so broke when I got started, I couldn\u2019t afford a lot of stuff. I would get a book, and I would do a lot of my homework on it, because literally, buying a $9 book was a big deal for me back then. That\u2019s how completely broke I was. So I would buy something &#8230; for example, I think my first book was Dan Kennedy\u2019s \u00a0<em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em>. I read it at least ten times. That\u2019s the only book I had.<\/p>\n<p>And I thought, \u201cMan, I sure am getting a deep knowledge.\u201d I started writing copy and I was getting people who\u2019d been in the business for three or four years, and I\u2019d been in it for three weeks, asking me to critique their stuff. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cDon\u2019t you guys already know this stuff?\u201d But the fact is I just had a deep knowledge of that one thing.<\/p>\n<p>So what I would do is I would make money from one client and I would reinvest that into another, what I would consider very high-quality product. So I think my second part was John Carlton\u2019s \u201cKick-Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel.\u201d I went through that probably more than ten times. I would get this deep knowledge base, and over the years when I could afford to buy whatever the hell I wanted, I realized I don\u2019t want all this. Most stuff out there is just crap. Why don\u2019t I read the ten best products, and when I say ten, it could be more than ten, but just generally speaking. I\u2019d rather have the ten best products ten times than 100 mediocre products one time.<\/p>\n<p>I really believe it helped give me a deep foundation. There\u2019s things that, to me, seem very basic, that when I teach it people are awed by it. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cThis is basic stuff.\u201d But that\u2019s because they\u2019ve been wasting their time with nonsense instead of just going deep into the really tried and true proven things. That\u2019s the way I look at it.<\/p>\n<p>Right now I\u2019m reading a book called, <em>No: The Only Negotiating System You Need for Work and Home<\/em>. It\u2019s by the late Jim Camp, who was considered the world\u2019s most feared negotiator when he was alive. Died a couple of years ago. This book, right now I\u2019m on my second reading. I know I\u2019ll read it ten times. It\u2019s so deep, there\u2019s so much going on in it. I\u2019m not just gonna toss this to the side and read somebody else\u2019s book just because, you know, I get people sending me books all the time unsolicited, which kind of annoys me actually. I don\u2019t know what to do with it.<\/p>\n<p>You know what it\u2019s like, and I\u2019m gonna go on a little side-trip here. The last place I lived at in this town called Roseburg, Oregon, which I called the Burgle. They all call it the Burg, I call it the Burgle because it was high crime and stuff there. When I first moved there, I noticed one day a little snake came in under the front door and then the next day this little salamander did. I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat the hell\u2019s going on?\u201d I opened the door and there\u2019s this cat out there, and I believe the cat was just trying to welcome me to the neighborhood. He\u2019s giving me unsolicited gifts. That\u2019s like what these books are. They\u2019re like snakes and salamanders coming through the door. I didn\u2019t ask for this. I don\u2019t yell at people for it because they\u2019re trying to be nice and everything, but it\u2019s just like, \u201cI gotta figure out what to do with these books\u201d because I hate throwing them out.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway. Ten times is what I do, and it\u2019s worked out pretty good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0So, what\u2019s on the list? You mentioned <em>The Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em>. You mentioned John Carlton\u2019s class and now Camp\u2019s book <em>No<\/em>. What else is on that list?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:\u00a0<\/strong><em>Breakthrough Advertising<\/em> by Gene Schwartz. I\u2019ve probably gone through that 19 or 20 times. That\u2019s so deep, I read it once a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Agreed with that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Ken McCarthy\u2019s copywriting course. Not a lot of people understand how brilliant that guy is. There\u2019s nothing bright shiny objecty about his course, other than he has a whole section on how to identify social paths, which is actually really fascinating. I wrote the ad for it. He hired me to write the ad for it, so I had to go through it several times. I think I went through it 13 or 14 times, and I just kept imbibing this stuff, and I think it made a huge difference.<\/p>\n<p>Another one would be all the copywriting issues of Gary Halbert\u2019s newsletter. They\u2019re not all found on thegaryhalbertletter.com, I had to buy them. There was this guy named Scott Haynes, who, if you guys know him, he\u2019s actually not doing too good right now. As of today, I believe he\u2019s got like a 25% chance of living. He\u2019s in the hospital, he\u2019s had a stroke on Christmas. But he\u2019s one of the most brilliant copywriters I\u2019ve ever met. I got to hang out with him a couple of times. He was one of Gary Halbert\u2019s only proteges. One of the few. So I guess he had the rights &#8230; this was back in 2003. He had the rights to sell just those copywriting issues, and so I bought those and I went through those well over ten times.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s probably some other ones I\u2019m not thinking of right now, but that was the foundational stuff. That\u2019s the stuff that I still go through these things. I still go through <em>Breakthrough Advertising<\/em> once a year. Gary Bencivenga had his $5,000 farewell seminar DVDs. For some sick, OCD reason I actually count through how many times I\u2019ve gone through it, it\u2019s like 28 times now. Once a year I go through it and I just keep imbibing stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Matt Field\u2019s original email course, which is really hard to find unless you just talk to him directly. I\u2019ve gone through that probably 20, 30 times. I just go through these things over and over and over. There was this interview- I mentioned Jim Camp. There\u2019s this interview he did with my friend Michael Senoff, which is only like an hour and 20 minutes long. I\u2019ve probably gone through that 40 or 50 times. <em>The Boron Letters<\/em> is another one. I know I\u2019ve gone through that 30 or 40 times. I actually copied that whole book out by hand, that\u2019s how much I liked it.<\/p>\n<p>Paul Hartunian\u2019s publicity course, <em>How to Get a Million Dollars Worth of Publicity<\/em>. It\u2019s not a copywriting course, but I learned so much. I\u2019ve gone through that at least 10 or 12 times because I wanted to do publicity, I wanted to master it. The stuff I learned about just tight writing from learning how to write press releases, the way he teaches, has been invaluable for my emails and copywriting.\u00a0There\u2019s probably more but those are the only ones I can think off the top of my head.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:\u00a0<\/strong>Wow. Well, it\u2019s good to hear that, especially since people listening are like, \u201cBen Settle has it figured out. He writes great copy.\u201d But you\u2019re in it, and you\u2019re reading this over and over again and revisiting it each year, which is just good to hear.\u00a0But Ben, I want to ask you about email players. I\u2019m a recent subscriber, I don\u2019t know why it took me so long to finally&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Yeah, what\u2019s with that? Why did it take you so long? What\u2019s going on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know! I really don\u2019t know. And I don\u2019t know what finally did it, but anyway. I\u2019m there. When I received my package, I remember thinking &#8230; I was blown away, and I also was like, \u201cI wonder how he does this each month?\u201d And I was picturing you putting together these packets and the different colored paper. So, I just want to know more about what happens behind the scenes with the creation of that each month, and how much time goes into it, if you have anybody helping you with it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Some months it takes me an hour and a half to write an issue, some months it\u2019ll take me four or five hours because &#8230; For example, I think your first one was probably the December issue, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> You got the Gene Schwartz call&#8230; By the way, those CDs, that\u2019s another thing I went through. Especially the third one, which has Parris Lampropoulos on it. He\u2019s one of my all time favorites. He\u2019s a true A-list copywriter, that\u2019s why I can\u2019t allow myself to be called one. I met that guy and I can\u2019t even hold a candle to the stuff he does. But that third one in that I\u2019ve probably listened to 20 or 30 times, it\u2019s just fascinating.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t normally add big packages like that. That was just kind of a Christmas thing. The January issue will have a bonus in it but it\u2019s just a transcript of a call. Let\u2019s say an issue has a lot of email examples; it\u2019s gonna take me less time to write that. I mean, it\u2019s 16 pages. I purposely keep it at 16 because I have learned over the years that if I give too much information away, people get overwhelmed and they don\u2019t implement, and they just can\u2019t keep up with it. So I purposely keep it limited to 16 pages.<\/p>\n<p>Some issues, like the February issue, assuming you stick around for the February issue, you will read all of my misogynist and sexist- No, I\u2019m just kidding. It\u2019s satire, but it\u2019s very thick. There\u2019s no examples of emails in there. It\u2019s all deep thinking, philosophical stuff about selling and the relationship between the dating world and selling and marketing. That issue took me a lot longer because it\u2019s just wall-to-wall copy. It\u2019s just 16 pages of thick copy. People make fun of me, they\u2019re like, \u201cBen, don\u2019t you know how to use the return key?\u201d Because they see paragraphs that are like, two pages long.<\/p>\n<p>So that took me longer, so it kind of depends. The inserts I put in there, like I always put a sales pitch for a back-issue, for the most part. A lot of those, I just look back whatever I put in there a year ago and just send that same PDF over, so I don\u2019t even have to make new information for that. It kind of depends. I would say on average it takes me two to three hours to write an issue. That would be on average.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you getting ahead a couple of months? You mentioned the February issue. Well, I guess that\u2019s not really that far ahead, but do you have March planned out already as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I\u2019ve actually just wrote the April issue. Now, I might say I wrote the issue, it\u2019s like 80% done. It\u2019s the first draft: there\u2019s stuff I\u2019ll add to it, there\u2019s stuff I\u2019ll take away. But I like to be ahead because I don\u2019t like- See, I\u2019m like a lot of copywriters, and I\u2019m just not this way. I wish I was, kind of, sometimes. But I\u2019m the guy who had to get his homework done early in high school. I don\u2019t like working under pressure. I like to be relaxed, I like to get everything done early so I don\u2019t have to think about it. I\u2019m always at least three to four months ahead on that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Ben, I\u2019d love to talk a little bit more about being controversial.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Okay. I\u2019m not that good at it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know, you\u2019ve said twice that it\u2019s satire. You\u2019ll call girls \u201cChicks\u201d and \u201cDames\u201d which is very un-PC. I\u2019m curious. It feels like this is something that you cultivate in order to make your brand stand out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> I don\u2019t actually try to offend- Like, when I call Kira a dame, I\u2019m not trying to offend her. It\u2019s actually a term of affection. It\u2019s not meant as an insult. People in my world understand that I\u2019m just trying to be entertaining, that\u2019s it. And the fact that people get so wound up, over like- Say that I\u2019m calling people b*tches, you know? Something like that. I\u2019m not calling girls \u201cHos.\u201d To me it\u2019s fun. It\u2019s old-school, 1940s gangster talk. To me it\u2019s fun.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I mentioned my villains book earlier. One of the chapters is about the Joker. The thing about Joker, he doesn\u2019t have any super powers, yet all the super powered villains and heroes fear him. He\u2019s the scariest dude out there and he\u2019s just this regular guy, you know? Well, why is that? I\u2019m a big comic book fan, and the movies and all that, and I just analyze 13 things that really stood out. I noticed that all these 13 things give him impact.<\/p>\n<p>All I\u2019m trying to do is have impact. If using the word \u201cDame\u201d or \u201cChick\u201d- Unfortunately we do live in this mush-cookie society where people get offended by that. I\u2019m gonna use it. I\u2019m gonna use it and I\u2019m gonna give people what I call \u201cThe medicine.\u201d I\u2019m gonna give them medicine, I\u2019m gonna show them how to calm down and relax, and have fun, and stop taking life so seriously. Because those are the best kind of customers that I\u2019ve ever had, at least. I don\u2019t like these uptight people. It\u2019s like the old-school southern preacher: I gotta get them lost before I can get them saved.<\/p>\n<p>So I gotta give them the medicine and sometimes that means being this- I just take my personality in real life, which is what you guys are listening to now, I\u2019m not putting a show on or anything. This is just how I talk. And I ratchet it up a couple of notches in my writing. I take the personality and I just add a couple notches of exaggeration to it.\u00a0Am I saying that everyone should do that? I don\u2019t know. But it works for me, so that\u2019s why I do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0You talk a lot about fun and I\u2019ve heard you mention fun in a couple other interviews, and I think that\u2019s kind of what gets pulled out of the writing process, especially when you are working with clients. It really &#8230; the fun is drained out of it very quickly.<\/p>\n<p>So, how do you keep it fun? I don\u2019t know if there\u2019s a trick to it, but especially, you\u2019ve worked with clients in the past, so I\u2019m just thinking, in the client atmosphere, when you do have that deadline, and it doesn\u2019t feel like fun, what are some ways to shift your perspective?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0This is one reason I don\u2019t do client work. I was just helping someone recently. I don\u2019t do a lot of coaching, I was just helping her because we\u2019re friends and all that. She\u2019s only been in this business for six months, and she\u2019s already got a job writing copy for a very well-known- I\u2019m not sure if I\u2019m supposed to name this guy, but let\u2019s just say he\u2019s probably the number one name in direct marketing and has been for 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s got that, right? She\u2019s writing product launch formula style emails for them right now. Now, I don\u2019t know jack about product launch formula, because I just &#8230; I don\u2019t know, I never got into it. But, I understand the basics of it. And she\u2019s wisely, wisely making these emails her own, putting her own twist on these things, even though they said, \u201cJust follow the system and write exactly like this, use these swipes.\u201d She\u2019s wisely doing it in her own way. My guess would be, and we\u2019ll find out soon enough, that they will appreciate her more as a result because she\u2019s not backing down to anyone.<\/p>\n<p>When somebody says \u201cJust swipe this,\u201d that\u2019s a terrible goal to have. I think a copywriter has to realize that your client is not necessarily the person writing the check. In fact, I don\u2019t believe that is the client. I think the client is the market. This is something I learned from listening to something over and over, these Eugene Schwartz- He did two talks. One to Rodale Books, and one to Philips Publishing back in the 90s. They\u2019re both excellent. I know I\u2019ve listened to those probably 50 times. I never get tired. I remember him saying, \u201cWhen you\u2019re writing copy, you have no client except the market.\u201d They\u2019re really the ones that pay the bills, they\u2019re the ones that pay your client, so you have to serve them.<\/p>\n<p>This is going to cause problems with the guy or girl writing the check, in some cases. It just depends. It depends how well you pick your clients. I got really lucky with clients. I make fun of client work, but the reality is I had some really good ones who just- For example, in the self-defense niche, I would write this most violent stuff. I would write copy about \u201cHit somebody here and he\u2019ll be pissing blood for the next two days.\u201d I would write stuff like that thinking, \u201cAh, he\u2019s gonna make me\u201d- He would just add to it. He would actually run with it and say, \u201cWait, let\u2019s make this even more bloody.\u201d That was a cool client.<\/p>\n<p>On the other hand, I had some clients who were really reserved, and they would get really nervous if I would do anything outside of what they considered normal. I would push them even harder. I would push it as far as I could possibly go, and then they could rein it in if they want, and it\u2019s still gonna be better than what they thought. So, my point is that you have to serve the market first. What do they need? Give the market what they want, and always be willing to make your case.<\/p>\n<p>You guys know Bob Bly, I\u2019m sure, right? The great Bob Bly. One of the best copywriters to walk the face of the planet. Him and I have become &#8230; I don\u2019t want to say we\u2019re friends, but we\u2019re definitely pen pals. He\u2019s on my daily email list and he\u2019ll write me back a lot and sometimes he\u2019ll agree with me, sometimes he\u2019ll disagree, it\u2019s fine. We just kind of have this banter.<\/p>\n<p>He said something very brilliant once on this interview he did with my friend Michael Senoff. He said, \u201cI can work with clients who are ignorant, and I can work with clients who are arrogant. I cannot work with clients who are both.\u201d An ignorant client is someone who knows they don\u2019t know. They\u2019ve hired you for a reason; they expect you to run with everything, and they want you to, and they\u2019re great. Those are great clients. They\u2019re fine.<\/p>\n<p>You also have arrogant clients who are very talented. They know what they want. They\u2019re kind of pricks, okay? But you\u2019re gonna learn something working for them, because they really do know their market, they know what they\u2019re talking about. They will make you grow, and they will challenge you. I\u2019ve had one client like that once and it was great. I mean, it sucked when I was working for him but now I look back, and I\u2019ve even told him, \u201cDude, I thought you were a dick, but man, I learned a lot of cool stuff\u201d because he would run and test stuff.<\/p>\n<p>But I can\u2019t work with someone who\u2019s both, someone who doesn\u2019t know they don\u2019t know, you know? Those are the ones I would say you\u2019re kind of in a lost cause with because they think they know but they don\u2019t. You can just grit your teeth and do the work and cry all the way to the bank, I guess, but I would try to turn those types of clients away if I was taking clients.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Ben, I want to change directions again a little bit. I think, if I\u2019m not mistaken, you\u2019ve been in a Mastermind with Brian Kurtz and a really good group of marketers and other writers. You may have been in another one with Ray Edwards, if I remember. I may have heard you talking about something like that in the past.\u00a0What have those kinds of groups and experiences done for you and your career?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0I have to admit something. Brian Kurtz has been trying to get me in his Mastermind group for a year and a half. I love Brian Kurtz; I think he\u2019s one of the most brilliant people I think I\u2019ve ever met, and he\u2019s certainly the classiest person I\u2019ve ever met. I talk to this guy and I feel like such an uncouth jerk here because he\u2019s so cool. That said, I\u2019ve never been in his Mastermind, I spoke at a Mastermind of his a couple months ago, and I told him, \u201cYou know, I just hate traveling to these things. The only way I\u2019ll go to one of these is if I\u2019m speaking or training. That\u2019s my rule now.\u201d So I just want to clarify, I\u2019ve never been a member of his Mastermind, but I did attend it. There is some really, really powerful stuff, especially &#8230; it wasn\u2019t his Mastermind, it was his Master Class that I went to, actually. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the same as his actual Mastermind. It was the same thing though.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you what. I don\u2019t usually get a lot when I do go to &#8230; I don\u2019t go to them anymore. I\u2019ve been to a couple masterminds and I always get really bored. I get fidgety and, I don\u2019t know, I\u2019m just not into it. But I always walk away with at least one thing, and from Brian Kurtz\u2019s thing, this last one in October. He had a speaker there named Victoria Labalme, who, she teaches TedX speakers how to rock the room. That\u2019s her website, rocktheroom.com, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, she gave a talk, and I don\u2019t remember her talk at all except one thing she said. It just stuck with me and I\u2019m pretty sure that\u2019s what she was going for. She just wanted you to walk away with something you\u2019ll remember. She says, \u201cWhen you\u2019re giving a talk,\u201d and this goes with copywriting, sales letters, emails, videos, whatever you\u2019re doing, it all applies. \u201cWhen you\u2019re giving a talk, the audience should feel like time has stopped.\u201d I\u2019ll tell you what, that is some of the most valuable advice I\u2019ve ever gotten, and I never would\u2019ve got it had I not gone to that and been invited to speak there.<\/p>\n<p>So, even though I\u2019m kind of a snob about going to Masterminds and all that, I probably should go to them, but I don\u2019t like leaving my dog and all that, so unless I\u2019m speaking I don\u2019t go to them. I was never in Ray Edwards\u2019 Mastermind but he did interview me for his thing he did in the summertime, which was really cool. Him and I have been friends for a long time but I\u2019ve never been in a real- Well, I take that back. I know what you\u2019re saying now.<\/p>\n<p>Ray and I used to be in a real informal Mastermind several years ago with Ryan Healy and John Anghelache, and Daniel Levitz.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Exactly, I remembered Ray talking about that on maybe his podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, he probably did. Here\u2019s the interesting thing about that Mastermind. There was no pressure. I mean, unfortunately because nobody was paying to be in it, usually we never had quorum, like three of us would show up. But that was fine. One thing I learned from that, and I think this would help copywriters, actually. It really helped me. I learned to not send them copy to critique it. This isn\u2019t because they weren\u2019t brilliant copywriters. They were. But they didn\u2019t understand my market, so the advice they would give I knew was just bullsh*t. Not because they were bullsh*t but because they didn\u2019t know the market.<\/p>\n<p>I learned years ago, from that Mastermind, I would talk about other stuff with them. Business stuff and all that. But as far as critiquing my copy? No. What I would do is send my copy to people who were in the market. It\u2019s funny because I\u2019m not &#8230; I had this told to me before that experience by a guy named Doug Deana who\u2019s an A-list copywriter, one of the best of the best out there. You talk about A-list, he\u2019s up there. And I remember him saying, \u201cI don\u2019t do critiques. I can\u2019t critique someone\u2019s ad if I don\u2019t know their market, otherwise I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m telling them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That was something I had reinforced at the Mastermind with Ray Edwards. It\u2019s not that those guys weren\u2019t brilliant, they all actually are better copywriters than me. But they never knew the markets I was writing to so they couldn\u2019t &#8230; like, they didn\u2019t know the golf market at that time so I\u2019d send them an ad and they\u2019d be giving me advice that I know just isn\u2019t good advice. Not because they aren\u2019t good copywriters, because they just didn\u2019t know the market.<\/p>\n<p>Any copywriters listening to this, which I assume everyone listening to this is a copywriter, take your copy to someone in the market. I\u2019ll give you a real life example. A couple years ago, Agora Financial flew me into Baltimore to teach three things to their editorial and copywriters that were on staff that day. They wanted me to teach email marketing, infotainment, and storytelling.<\/p>\n<p>And somehow, I ended up talking to this copywriter there. I don\u2019t want to name him or anything, not because it\u2019s bad, not because he did anything wrong or anything, but just because he probably doesn\u2019t want me saying anything. Just his own privacy. But him and I got to talking. I was like, \u201cYou know, you guys at Agora have the best legal department for writing supplements. Like, I hear you guys have the best.\u201d And I had this ad that was selling a prostate product for people who have prostate problems.<\/p>\n<p>And he goes, \u201cYeah, we do.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, can you give me some pointers on this? Like, how can I avoid getting in trouble with the law, and all that, even on that making claims.\u201d He was like, \u201cWell, let me talk let me take a look at your ad.\u201d So he did, and a few days later I get this long email from him saying, \u201cBen, I think I have prostate problems.\u201d That was the sales letter. And he\u2019s only in his upper 20s, he does not have prostate problems.<\/p>\n<p>But he was part of that. I didn\u2019t even know he was in the market. But you know, his feedback was invaluable. He didn\u2019t try to critique the copy. He was basically &#8230; he bought the product, and then he bought another product that I was selling from that product because of the copy. That\u2019s the kind of feedback that helps me, you know? That\u2019s how I know I was doing right. Now, he wasn\u2019t coming at it from a copywriting point of view, he was coming at it from just a guy. Guys tend to read this prostate copy and they get scared. I put some scary stuff in there. I don\u2019t know if that helps anyone, but I say go to your market for critiques, don\u2019t go to other copywriters.<\/p>\n<p>Unless it\u2019s like technical stuff, then it\u2019s okay. For example, I had that same prostate ad &#8230; I was talking to David Deutsch. He\u2019s probably the best direct mail guy out there right now in the game, and him and I\u2019ve known each other for a while. He\u2019s an email player subscriber. And he\u2019s like, \u201cHey, you know, Ben, let\u2019s get on Skype and just kind of talk once in a while.\u201d So we did. And he looked at my headline and he was like, \u201cGod, Ben, this is\u201d- In his own way. He was much nicer about it than he needed to be. Basically said the headline was boring, right? I mean, not in so many words. He was, \u201cI\u2019d like to Ben Settle this thing up a little bit, like you do in your emails.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That one piece of advice &#8230; No, he actually was looking at it from a copywriting point of view, actually was very helpful. And so I changed it and made a much better headline, but that\u2019s because he was he wasn\u2019t trying to critique the whole ad without understanding the market, and all that. That was a technical thing and that was helpful. So you can get good information from really high level copywriters, but, generally speaking, take that to the market. That\u2019s where you get your best feedback.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Ben, that\u2019s a huge help, because I love getting critiqued, but I realize as you\u2019re saying that, that I probably sometimes am asking the wrong people to critique my work. So, yeah, I have to think about that.\u00a0Ben, I joined your apprentice program. I don\u2019t remember what it was called or if that\u2019s what it was called. A couple of months ago?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Six months ago?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> That was in July. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> July. Okay. July. I have a bunch of questions. Answer whatever you want, but you always mention an ex-apprentice and I really want to know who she is, or he, because you mention her all the time and I\u2019m dying to know. That\u2019s one question.<\/p>\n<p>And then, I just want to hear about how that program, when I know you shut it down and you were really wonderful with your transparency, and I think that\u2019s when I really started to like you, because I thought you handled that so well and so I had a lot of respect for your team. I didn\u2019t know as much about you at the time. That was my first experience. So I want to hear about that process, and then why you never want to do that again. If that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Okay. No, those are very good question, actually, and I haven\u2019t talked a lot about this stuff because, to me, it\u2019s not that big of a deal. It seems a bigger deal to everybody else.<\/p>\n<p>Okay. So, starting with the ex copywriting apprentice, let\u2019s just get this out on the air, because everybody was ask me about this. So when I moved to Roseburg, Oregon- And I don\u2019t live there anymore, I live on the coast now, back in Bandon, Oregon now, thank god. When I moved to Roseburg, Oregon, I needed someone to clean my house, because I\u2019m just too lazy to do such things. Ten-minute work day keeps me very busy. So, my friend Trevor Mauch, who\u2019s the most prominent businessmen in that town, and he\u2019s a good friend of mine. He\u2019s the one actually got to move out there. He\u2019s like, \u201cWell, I know this girl who could clean your house,\u201d and he gave me her information. I contact her, I hired her. She was great. I mean just great at it, just made my life so easy.<\/p>\n<p>And then, later on, she she started another business where she would cook meals, gourmet meals, because she\u2019s an excellent cook. I mean, just one of the best I\u2019ve ever had. She would deliver those to your house. So after that I thought, \u201cWell, she\u2019s already cleaning my house. She\u2019s already cooking my meals. I might as well date her.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I started dating her, and very early on while we were dating &#8230; we kind of dated on the sneak, actually, for a couple of months, cause I just don\u2019t like the spotlight. This is the one of those towns I just don\u2019t feel like &#8230; whatever. But, after a couple of months, she was on my list. Right when she started cleaning my house, before we even dated, she got on my email list. It was a whole new world to her, this direct marketing stuff. And she was just reading my emails every day, and she\u2019d respond to them because she thought I was actually writing her personally, which is a good thing. That didn\u2019t go on forever, but she kind of figured it out. But that\u2019s the effect you\u2019re going for, you know? Anyone who\u2019s not in this business, they don\u2019t realize that that\u2019s what you\u2019re going for.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, she would read my daily emails, and she got into it, and when she started that business where she was delivering meals, she started &#8230; She didn\u2019t have any of my products or anything. Just by observing what I\u2019m doing, she started writing some email, which she would also turn those into these Facebook group posts. She\u2019d go to local Facebook groups, that\u2019s how she was selling herself. And she wrote this ranting email about minute rice. She was just real passionate about how much she hates instant rice. I\u2019ve never seen anything quite like it.<\/p>\n<p>And I said, \u201cJill, this is a really good email,\u201d and I said, \u201cI\u2019m going to use this as an example in one of my email players issues,\u201d and she got really excited. And then, I made what I believe is a mistake in hindsight, of taking her on as an apprentice, which basically just screwed everything up. It\u2019s hard to work with people that like in that capacity. Our personalities just did not really mesh that well in that relationship.<\/p>\n<p>She was my apprentice for a few months and then she soon became my ex copywriting apprentice. Which, to me, adds the entertainment level to the whole thing. Even in my Facebook group, I go from this 90210 type feel to everything, it\u2019s like a little soap opera going on. That\u2019s why I\u2019ve got a main chick and a side chick.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Trying to figure out if your Dylan, the bad boy, or Brandon, the kind-of-bad boy, or&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know who the hell I am. I think I\u2019m just like the dad or something. I don\u2019t know, maybe I\u2019m David, the little geeky guy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0No, don\u2019t be David. Don\u2019t be David.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m up there rapping.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, long story short, that\u2019s how she became the ex-apprentice. And she just didn\u2019t really, you know, she just had to go her own way. Honestly, her and I have not talked since June because we had a falling out. I actually have no idea what she\u2019s up- I saw one of your questions. I couldn\u2019t even tell you what she\u2019s up to because she doesn\u2019t speak to me anymore. So, take that for what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Soon after that is when I launched El Benbo\u2019s Apprentice, which had now whole lots- Even though I wanted to use her story, I couldn\u2019t after the falling out, I didn\u2019t want to use her story. In fact, that was the last thing she ever told me, was like, \u201cI don\u2019t want you using any of the &#8230; telling people how much money I made or anything,\u201d so I\u2019m like, \u201cFine.\u201d That\u2019s fine, that\u2019s fine. I understand that, I don\u2019t have a problem with it.<\/p>\n<p>When I launched El Benbo\u2019s Apprentice, which had been in the works for months before that, which was a membership site because I was giving so much free information out on my podcast on accident, I wasn\u2019t intending to. I\u2019m like, \u201cI need to be charging for this. Why don\u2019t I have a paid podcast? Let\u2019s just see what happens.\u201d I told my producer- Jonathan Rivera is my producer, and we partnered on all that. And then I brought Misty the podcast, babe and she\u2019s the one who does my introduction voice and all that. I brought her in on it because she was writing my emails for me to that list, the podcast list, and she was great at it. And she\u2019s really the only person I\u2019ve ever let write emails for me because our personalities are so similar.<\/p>\n<p>So we decided we\u2019d do a three-way partnership on El Benbo\u2019s Apprentice, and it was probably the most successful launch I\u2019ve ever done, just looking at the upsales. I think each buyer was worth $27 or something, for a $7- You know, they they got in for $7. Well, you were there, you got in for $7, but we upsold four things to you and all that. It was very successful.<\/p>\n<p>But the problem was, it was a total nightmare. I knew I wanted to end it before &#8230; in fact, I purposely didn\u2019t send out emails out the last day because I\u2019m like, \u201cAhh, this sucks. I hate this.\u201d Nobody knew how to use support ticket system, they\u2019re coming to me personally. I got 50, 60, 70 people coming to me. They had legitimate problems, I\u2019m not saying they shouldn\u2019t. But it was like, if it\u2019s like this at 1,000 members, what\u2019s it going to be like when it gets to 10,000 members? They\u2019re hunting me down on Facebook, they\u2019re hunting Misty down, asking her technical questions. And Jonathan, he was going crazy. And so, I just said, \u201cI\u2019m ending this. I don\u2019t need it. It\u2019s not worth it.\u201d I\u2019d rather live life in a way that I enjoy. I don\u2019t really need the money, it\u2019s not &#8230; I mean, it\u2019s nice but I don\u2019t need it. I\u2019d rather go put this energy into something else.<\/p>\n<p>So, that\u2019s the story behind that, and I literally killed it off the day after the launch. It took a couple of months, though, we had to still deliver on some stuff and all that, but that nightmare is long past and I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking about it.<\/p>\n<p>But that\u2019s the lesson. My lesson from that is I don\u2019t belong in a membership site. Some people love that. My friend Ryan Lee, for example. He\u2019s been doing membership sites for 18 years, and he says, \u201cMan, a print newsletter was so much easier.\u201d But he\u2019s good at it. He\u2019s a social guy. I\u2019m just not that social. I\u2019m not this extroverted guy, I\u2019m like this introverted Grinch. I\u2019d rather be yelling at people, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Now, I know people who are great at membership sites, and they should. There are people who like doing print newsletters who should do that. There are people who hate doing print. I know someone who hates doing print newsletters but he does one anyway. Makes no sense to me. So, yeah. You\u2019ve got to build your business to suit your preferences, and I think that\u2019s the big lesson out of that. A lot of people like to follow people and trends and all that. \u201cWell, that\u2019s what so-and-so is doing, that must be what\u2019s working.\u201d No that\u2019s what\u2019s working for that person. What works for you might be completely different.<\/p>\n<p>So, we talk about Facebook groups, right? What you guys are doing, your goal for your group is completely different than the one I have going. But if somebody just said, \u201cOh I\u2019ve got to do this. Ben\u2019s doing no value I need to do no value.\u201d They may not get any members that way. I\u2019ve been building this audience up for 15 years. I mean, they\u2019re used to me. They understand what I\u2019m doing. There\u2019s a relationship and a bond there. It\u2019s all intangible, it\u2019s not something that can be tracked or measured in any way other than my gut feeling, and knowing my market.<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s why I think everybody has to make their own way in this and if they do they will stand out and they will be much more successful and have more peace of mind.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0So, Ben, I have one more question for you.\u00a0When you launched the community, you killed off the podcast, or at least you going to put it &#8230; pulled it into the community, and then killed it off and, I have to say, one of the most valuable podcasts I ever listened to was the series that you did when you tore apart one of Misty\u2019s sales pages.<\/p>\n<p>You basically went step by step, and I can\u2019t remember if it was three or four episodes, but I listened to that three or four times. Even for experienced writers, this stuff his gold.<\/p>\n<p>But then the podcast was gone, and I think you just brought it back. It doesn\u2019t look like it\u2019s on iTunes yet but it\u2019s on your site. Are those kinds of things coming back? Is the podcast a weekly reality now? Is it something that you\u2019re throwing time into? Tell us a little bit about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I always knew I\u2019d come back in a podcast, but I wanted to do it very methodically, different than before. The podcast, which is called the Ben Settle Show, which is dead. I have it on my site as archived, so they\u2019re all on my site. I don\u2019t think those will be on iTunes ever, but they\u2019re on my site. They\u2019re on my producer\u2019s site, too. So, those are easily accessed on my site now.<\/p>\n<p>The new one is on iTunes and we just finally &#8230; you know, I don\u2019t know why I didn\u2019t do this originally, but I just finally put an iTunes button on there for people who prefer iTunes. I just launched it on January first, New Year\u2019s Day. We\u2019ve got the first 20 shows in the can, so all the way through May. One a week. We like to get ahead. And so I can assure you, that gets really crazy, and really controversial. I\u2019m not trying to be, but for example, I do a whole episode on why I think equality is bullsh*t. Not because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s a good thing, but I just don\u2019t think historically it\u2019s ever been a reality. I don\u2019t think it ever will be.<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s just things like that I get into. I\u2019m trying to keep it less how-to and more mindset, like thread holes like I would do in my group. Just deep thinking on stuff. Sometimes it\u2019s how-to, some of it is, but hopefully like in the power one you can read stuff that goes beyond business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Ben, you know I\u2019ve got my last question, just from your perspective on everything you\u2019ve learned with clients, beyond clients. What should new copywriters take advantage of in today\u2019s market? Have you seen anything where like there\u2019s a big hole because we\u2019re all focused on writing sales pages and emails and web copy, but there\u2019s something else that we could step into? Is there something that we should be paying attention to today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So, what we have is a glut of copywriting information. Right? It\u2019s like, when I was starting out, they didn\u2019t have podcasts or any of this stuff. It\u2019s great. I mean, there\u2019s so much out there. It\u2019s like, now you have to figure out what not to pay attention to.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s what we have going for us, and this stuff has been around since the internet\u2019s inception, but man, it makes life so much easier at the research stage when you can just go be a fly on the wall in a forum somewhere. For example, I was in the weight loss niche for a couple of years, and the guy who did the traffic and the stats is my friend Jim Yaghi, and he\u2019s like an AdWords guy. When I did Copy Slacker, I asked him, I said, \u201cCan you give me some kind of testimonial about how I\u2019ve helped you?\u201d The product hadn\u2019t existed yet, but I just wanted testimonials about how I helped them. And he goes, \u201cBen, I don\u2019t think I told you this, but you\u2019re emails and your copywriting, and your sales letters converted the front-end list at 40% to buyers,\u201d which is pretty good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not bad at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:\u00a0<\/strong>And even in a rabid market like that. No, I\u2019m not an overweight woman. I don\u2019t know, I mean, maybe people might think I am, but I\u2019m not. I don\u2019t really understand the problems they have, right? So how can I write someone?<\/p>\n<p>Well I did all my research in just going to forums where heavy women hang out and they think it\u2019s anonymous, because it is, it\u2019s the internet, but they don\u2019t realize there\u2019s lurkers and all that. And they will say stuff that they would never say to anyone else in real life. There\u2019s just no way. I would get so much insight by just being a fly on the wall and really understanding where they\u2019re coming from, really empathizing with them. Really, there\u2019s so much about that market that the average weight loss marketer just doesn\u2019t see because they\u2019re not doing that. They\u2019re just looking at all the other ads out there and saying, \u201cWell, I\u2019ll swipe that, and that\u2019s what\u2019s working.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a terrible way to go about it. You\u2019ve got to go deep into these markets and really try to become one of them mentally. Like, get inside them. And these forums make it so easy, especially for writing emails. I\u2019ll give you an example. Some of the best emails I wrote were I would go to these weight loss forums, and most of them, the software would let you sort the threads by the number of views. So the most viewed thread would be at the top. And a lot of times, those titles were just subject lines I could just pluck right out. Those were obviously getting a lot of views, and I would read the stories people would write in them.<\/p>\n<p>One of my highest selling emails in that market was, the subject line was, \u201cHumiliating fat Facebook pics,\u201d and that was actually the name of the thread, and it was about this lady in there who was trying to lose weight. She\u2019s eating right, she\u2019s exercising. You really rooted for this girl, you wanted her to be okay, but her friends, her passive aggressive so-called friends were tagging her heavy pictures on Facebook just to bring her down. And so I wrote an email about that.<\/p>\n<p>Now, no other weight loss marketer that I know would have thought of that. I wouldn\u2019t have thought of that. I had to go to the market to get that. Never would have thought, copywriter would never think that. You have to go into the market. And, incidentally that made us a lot of sales, but when I got out of weight loss, there\u2019s these guys that are really two of the highest selling affiliates on Clickbank in that market out there, like this really high level. And I said, \u201cDude, why don\u2019t you take this email and just tell me how it works?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So he used it during this lunch where they were competing against people with two million person lists, like BioTrust and all this. And he said they were just killing it. They beat everybody, and they weren\u2019t even mailing as much as these other guys because he was using these emails I wrote three or four years earlier that were just purely market-based. There weren\u2019t even any claims in them. I was just walking people through stories, like these horror stories that they were going through. I don\u2019t know if that adds to anyone\u2019s life, but that was a very very profitable lesson for me to learn.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Message mining is a tactic that I think just about everybody could improve their copy by asking the market what they should be saying to them. That\u2019s fantastic advice.\u00a0So, Ben, we haven\u2019t really talked about zombie fiction.<\/p>\n<p>You know there\u2019s all kinds of things that we can talk about as far as mailing you every day, but we are running out of time. So, hopefully we can have you back in a future episode. In the meantime, though where would people find you if they want to connect with you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong>\u00a0First of all, I would be I would be honored to come back whenever you guys want. So it\u2019s no problem on that. You can find me at bensettle.com, and if you give me your snowflake, precious precious email address that you\u2019re so scared of giving, up I will send you the first issue of my email players newsletter as a PDF. It\u2019s a print newsletter, but I\u2019ll send you the PDF of the first issue. It\u2019s a very real $97 retail value and there\u2019s 24 ways in there to start making more sales with your email, starting right away. I\u2019ve had people literally tell me that free issue made them thousands, and in one case tens of thousands of dollars, and that\u2019s just the free issue. And you can have it if you go to bensettle.com.<\/p>\n<p>If you don\u2019t opt in, if you say, \u201cBen, I don\u2019t trust you. I don\u2019t like you,\u201d which is understandable by the end of this. And you say, \u201cI\u2019m going to give you my\u201d- Or you think you\u2019re just going to give me some like bullcrap hotmail address, that\u2019s fine. If you click through you don\u2019t have to give it to me. You can click through and there\u2019s almost 2,000 pages of blog posts, there\u2019s well over a dozen hours of interviews I put up there, and plus, my podcast is up there, my old podcast is up there. That\u2019s like, 60 hours worth of content and it\u2019s all there. It\u2019s all free. It\u2019s just, you know, there it is. Bensettle.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Fantastic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> And Ben, can we hang out with you anywhere? Do you go to conferences or can we hang out with you in person ever?<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Yeah. Only when I\u2019m speaking do I go, and if so- Okay, so here\u2019s what\u2019s on the agenda for 2017 as of now, and hopefully more will be added. In February, in New York, I\u2019m doing an event with Dan Meredith and Ryan Lee. We call it Good Cop, Bad Cop, Insane Cop. And Ryan is the good cop, I\u2019m the bad cop, Dan\u2019s the insane cop. And we\u2019re going to teach about continuity, how we make a living with continuity. I do print newsletters, Ryan with those memberships sites, and Dan does a paid Facebook group. That\u2019s gonna be a one day, it\u2019s only going to be $200 to attend. That\u2019s in New York. That\u2019s February 4<sup>th<\/sup>, I believe.<\/p>\n<p>The week after that I\u2019ll be in Orlando speaking at my friend Ray Higdon\u2019s event on email marketing, so that\u2019ll be in Orlando. I think the 11<sup>th<\/sup> or something like that. Later on in the year, me and Misty, who I mentioned before, and another friend of mine named Troy. We\u2019re doing an event in Napa, California, at a winery and we haven\u2019t even promoted that yet but we already have the place. We can fit 20 or 30 people in there, it\u2019s going to be like a wine tasting event. We have four hours. The first hour will be just talking, whatever. The second and third hour I\u2019ll be teaching, and the fourth hour just mingling again, and then we\u2019re going to go have fun in Napa for a day or two.<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s that. And then later in the year, probably in the fall time, definitely in the fall time, October probably. My friend Kevin Rogers, him and I do this &#8230; we started an event this last October called Email Addiction, and that\u2019s like three or four people that we bring in, and we just really get deep into their problems with email and stuff, and it\u2019s not super pricey but it\u2019s up there.<\/p>\n<p>But those are the four events I have so far, and you know, whenever people ask me to speak I rarely ever say no, so probably there\u2019ll be more than that. But that\u2019s what I got for now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Perfect. All right, well, thank you Ben. We really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>BS:<\/strong> Well, thank you guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the 10th\u00a0episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with \u201cdon&#8217;t-call-him-an-A-list copywriter\u201d Ben Settle about whether he really works 10 minutes a day, his process for writing the [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[16,3],"class_list":["post-248","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-ben-settle","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 10: Daily Emails in 10 Minutes a Day with Ben Settle - 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