{"id":311,"date":"2017-01-31T05:11:27","date_gmt":"2017-01-31T00:11:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=311"},"modified":"2018-01-05T05:40:42","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T22:40:42","slug":"amy-posner","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/amy-posner\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 11: Advice for a Beginning Copywriter with Amy Posner"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In the 11th\u00a0episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, Kira and Rob talk with direct response copywriter\u00a0Amy Posner running an agency and her move to freelancing, her lead magnet and what she includes with it to close more projects, her sales process and how she closed a $27,000 project, and the advice she would give to a copywriter who is just starting out. Great advice here. Don\u2019t miss it.<\/p>\n<p>Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8827\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-311-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC011.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC011.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC011.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC011.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=311-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC011.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC011.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em> <a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/the-200k-in-2017-freelancer?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><br \/>\nThe Copywriter Mastermind<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kolbe.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kolbe Profile<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/amyposner.com\/info-kit\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Amy&#8217;s Info Kit<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ramit?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ramit Sethi<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/amyposner.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Amy&#8217;s Website<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-345\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-768x768.jpg 768w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-1024x1024.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-400x400.jpg 400w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010-50x50.jpg 50w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/01\/AmyPosner_Ep010.jpg 1350w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/><\/h3>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for<br \/>\nprofessional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at <a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">airstory.co\/club<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0What if you could hang out with really talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work process and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I try to do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 11 as we chat with freelance copywriter Amy Posner about her client proposal process, cold prospecting, being a direct response copywriter, and her thoughts about certifications for copywriters.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for coming back, Amy. I feel like we should share that we already have a interview due, and had a conversation with you, and it erased by accident and it was gold. It was pure gold.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> We lost it, and we are sorry, but we are grateful to have you back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I hope I can do whatever magic it was last time. I can\u2019t remember.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> The good thing is, it\u2019s been a couple of weeks, so I have actually forgotten most everything we talked about, so this all feels fresh and new to me. We\u2019ll just start from scratch here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong> Sounds good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> To start, Amy, I know that you\u2019ve had a really evolved last year. You changed a lot in your business, and you joined The Copywriters Mastermind. Could you just share just kind of an overview of how your business has changed over the past year?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong> Wow. That\u2019s a big question. I\u2019ll preface it by saying, I\u2019ve been an entrepreneur for a long time and I seem to thrive on change, so that\u2019s kind of like my MO. I\u2019m not sure that that\u2019s the best thing, but what\u2019s happened this year has been really good. I have resisted choosing a niche for many years. I kind of niched in copy as opposed to like in a, in an industry sector.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things that I realized, at some point last year, was that I wanted to streamline my business. I started this &#8230; What is this? 2016? The end of 2014, I developed this little mantra, which was \u201cwork less, earn more.\u201d I set about trying to figure out, \u201cHow do I do that?\u201d What I realized was I get bored easily, so I\u2019ve always really enjoyed diversity. Doing different things. Working for different clients. I did a lot of jobs that were involved and complicated and many of them were one-offs.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes clients would come back after a year or two but I didn\u2019t have a lot of regular, repetitive business. That meant two things. One is that I was learning. I was taking a big learning curve all the time, and I was enjoying that for a long time.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing was it meant I was always on the hunt. I decided that that wasn\u2019t the most efficient way to run my business, so I looked for ways to streamline my efforts, and fulfill this \u201cearn more, work less\u201d kind of thing that I set up for myself. I don\u2019t know if I answered your question exactly, but those are some of the broad strokes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> \u00a0Amy, I\u2019m really curious. You mentioned that you haven\u2019t really niched yourself except to say that you\u2019re a copywriter, but in a lot of ways you\u2019ve, over the last few years, sold yourself as a direct response copywriter. I\u2019m curious how you see direct response copy being different from other kinds of copywriting or content creation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Direct response to me is really &#8230; It\u2019s a lot about the psychology of what happens, and really understanding the audience. Traditionally, and direct response has been around a long time. I mean, direct response is just what it says it is, right? It\u2019s giving people a vehicle to respond, so that you can measure results. That\u2019s essentially what it is. I guess sort of scientifically\/technically however you want to think of that, but to me what it is, is it\u2019s really tapping into the psychology of your reader.<\/p>\n<p>Whether it\u2019s a web-visitor, print, material. It\u2019s really &#8230; It\u2019s client-focused, reader-focused, visitor-focused. It\u2019s audience-focused copy the really taps into people\u2019s pains, problems, aspirations. Sort of the theory being that people won\u2019t pay attention until they know that you understand who they are, where they\u2019re coming from, and what their problem is.<\/p>\n<p>To me that\u2019s what direct response. It really taps into that, and connects with the audience, and then there\u2019s other techniques that you can use to engage them, or move them to action. That sort of thing. To me that\u2019s sort of the essence of direct response.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you say it\u2019s basically the same thing as what the buzzword lately is been conversion copywriter? That they\u2019re really the same thing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, yes and no. I mean to me, I kind of think of it this way. Direct response is what you do to get people interested, and conversion is what you do to get them to take action. Although there\u2019s overlaps in both disciplines. That\u2019s kind of how I\u2019ve come to think of it, and I\u2019m not sure that that\u2019s accurate definition, but it\u2019s kind of my working definition at the moment anyway. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:\u00a0<\/strong>It actually really helps because I didn\u2019t &#8230; I have not understood direct response, and the difference at all. I thought they were about the same, so this has clarified it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think of them similarly. I started as a direct response copywriter as well, and you know back in the \u201870s and \u201880s direct response was the Columbia Records Club, right? The book of the month club. You got that offer. You responded to it. You could track it back to a particular newspaper ad, or maybe some other kind of coupon vehicle. That kind of a thing.<\/p>\n<p>Conversion copywriting is pretty much online I think, and it\u2019s tied to things like analytics, you know watching traffic patterns, conversion rates, and increases in revenue, so I think there\u2019s a lot of crossover, but I think like you&#8217;re saying, there is some differences. At least how I\u2019ve perceived them throughout my career.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You know as you\u2019re saying that one of the things I\u2019m thinking is it\u2019s &#8230; They both &#8230; Good copywriting I think is a mixture of art and science, like creativity and formula, but I think to some extent it\u2019s almost like the direct response is the creative, \u201cLet me get you interested,\u201d part, and the conversion part is now \u201cLet me make you do something about it,\u201d which is art\/science. Kind of interesting. Even though they both have elements of each.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Amy, what is your process behind the scenes? You know I have been able to work with you on a project or two, and we have a similar style, and that\u2019s why it works well, but how do you combine the art and science, and how do you do it in such a way that you\u2019re able to juggle multiple projects at the same time because I know you take on a lot, and you\u2019re able to deliver on all of those projects.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>You know, it\u2019s funny. I think to some extent it\u2019s how I\u2019m wired. I don\u2019t know if you guys, or anybody in the audience has had their Kolbe profile done. I had mine done early this year, and it was really interesting because it talks about your&#8230; \u00a0It\u2019s not a personality indicator. It\u2019s kind of like your inherent strengths, or how you approach things, like just your natural, the natural way you\u2019re wired to approach anything. Whether it\u2019s a problem, or a project, or a relationship, and one of the things that I found out about myself was that I do really well doing things in short bursts, but having a lot of diversity.<\/p>\n<p>I kind of knew that about myself, but I always felt guilty like that was wrong. I should be more focused. I should turn everything off, and just concentrate. That doesn\u2019t work for me so well, so I\u2019m not sure that my particular style is useful to anybody because I\u2019m a little bit all over the map, but I find that having about three different things going seems to be what drives me. I\u2019m sort of motivated, and I can jump from one to the next, and I can get enough time to leave this one over here for a couple days, and then come back to it and be fresh.<\/p>\n<p>That just seems to work for me rather than just this intense focus on one thing. I don\u2019t know. Rob, do you work that way too? Because I know Kira does. I imagine you just sort of more deadline focused on one thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> I wish.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong> Oh, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0You know I have this idea in my head that I\u2019m going to sit down, and I\u2019m going to crank out a thousand words or whatever, and sometimes as I\u2019m sitting down, and I &#8230; You write out a paragraph, and I\u2019m feeling really good about it like I\u2019ve almost got so much adrenaline that I have to stand up and walk around, and go get a drink, and then I come back to it, and reengage, and yeah.<\/p>\n<p>I wish that I were better at sitting down for the 35 minutes of the Pomodoro method, right? And cranking it out, and then taking a very calculated break, but I\u2019m not like that unfortunately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s funny because it seems like &#8230; That sort strikes me as your personality type, but interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0I fake it. Fake it till you make it, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong> Yeah. You do a great job. Must be the dad thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> It could be that. Right? Amy, I have some questions about prospecting. You do some things that are pretty interesting to me. One of them is the information kit that you offer on your website. You offer a piece called \u201cCopy that closes,\u201d but in addition to that, if somebody requests to receive that from you, you\u2019re sending out 10 pages of \u201cAll about Amy,\u201d and the kind of stuff that you do. Will you talk a little bit about the thought process behind creating this piece, and what it does for your clients, and how they perceive you when they receive it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. I mean it\u2019s interesting. I got the idea to do that from a mailing that I did, so it started with this direct mail prospecting piece that I had, and I needed some kind of bait in the prospecting piece, so I was sending a letter in the mails, like a, I don\u2019t know, two-page letter essentially, and I had this candy bar in it. It was a candy bar that I had a custom label made. It had a picture of me, and some of my bullet points, and my contact information, and so on.<\/p>\n<p>I wanted to put something &#8230; I mean, I needed to put something in the letter besides, \u201cHey. Call me if you need me.\u201d I wanted some way to have people sort themselves out, and raise their hand whether they were immediately interested, or marginally interested, just curious, whatever, so I can build a list of suspects, and turn them into prospects.<\/p>\n<p>I decided that the information kit was sort of the pitch in the letter was &#8230; It was to marketing directors specifically, and it was about having somebody on tap when you needed them, and this was my way of introducing myself, and letting them know a little bit about me, and hopefully opening the door. Combining that with the \u201cCopy that closes\u201d piece was meant to be kind of a &#8230; I don\u2019t know. It might sound a little fancy to call it like a thought piece, but to give people my viewpoint on marketing and copy.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s worked really well for me in that people come into the &#8230; People who\u2019ve looked at it, come into the conversation, A, knowing a little bit more about me, but also I have felt like with a little bit more respect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s interesting. I mean, you see a lot of people have the lead magnet, or the ethical bribe, however you want to call it, but basically what they get is just the PDF, or the information, and the sales is sort of left to a follow up email, but you\u2019re combining the two, and that seems like a really smart approach to me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Thanks. Yeah. You know, it\u2019s funny, and you guys know this because I\u2019ve said it before. I love the sales process. I really like prospecting. All of the things that go into that I just enjoy, and part of that &#8230; I\u2019ve done this in all my businesses is just sort of courting people over the long term. I have never been one of these people who if someone says, \u201cNo,\u201d or, \u201cNot now,\u201d gets bummed out. I\u2019m just like, \u201cOh. Okay. Not now. Well, just keep in touch.\u201d That\u2019s won me a lot of business over time, but I think partly because I don\u2019t take it personally. I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m digressing a little bit, but yeah. I\u2019ve just found that that approach works really well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Well, and that\u2019s actually what I wanted to ask you about next is just your killer sales process because you do land a lot of business, and it\u2019s well-paying business, and you just do it so naturally. I\u2019ve heard you on calls, and you just have a way of commanding the call in a way that people respect you, and it shows that you\u2019re professional and experienced, and you know what you\u2019re talking about.<\/p>\n<p>What are some ways that other copywriters can really start doing that in their sales process? Do you have any tips that you could share from your experience?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. Get old. Have a lot of experience. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is, is to really &#8230; You know, this is a challenging thing honestly because I think what it comes down to is really knowing your business, and feeling confident in what you do, and it\u2019s that age old paradox. It\u2019s like, \u201cHow do you get the experience when you don\u2019t have it?\u201d I think that the way to do that is to have confidence in something. I mean you don\u2019t have to have confidence in absolutely everything that you do, or all your skills. I mean, I don\u2019t think we ever do because ideally we\u2019re always sort of evolving and growing, and so on, and adding to our skills, but I think it\u2019s having confidence in something, and coming across, you know, genuine.<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t come across like trying to be cocky, or confident, but maybe it\u2019s your confidence in the service that you deliver, and by that I mean it could be customer service. It could be the particular thing that you\u2019re offering, but standing up for yourself, and knowing that you\u2019re right. What I always think is a good way to start that if you don\u2019t have that, or it\u2019s not innate, is find one thing that you can hang that on. You know, one thing that you know you do really well.<\/p>\n<p>Whether or not you\u2019re promoting that, bring that to the call. Bring that into the equation. Do you know what I mean? I\u2019m not talking about fake it till you make it because I don\u2019t buy that, but just finding somewhere that you feel confidence in someplace that you can have that conversation from where you feel that, and I think that evolves over time as you feel more confident, but I think you have to find something to hang on as your developing that. Do you guys relate to that? Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It definitely makes sense. Just knowing a little bit about you, I\u2019m guessing that a lot of your confidence comes from, as you said, your experience, but you went through a time when you owned a agency, and were working with very large clients. I\u2019m assuming you were working with other writers, other designers, even account management people, those kinds of things going on, and if I\u2019m not mistaken, that whole experience probably informs what you\u2019re doing now today.<\/p>\n<p>In fact, I\u2019d be really interested in hearing about how you came to start your agency. What that felt like? What you were doing during that time, and why you decided to move away from that ultimately?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Well, I mean just to wind back a little bit, I mean I grew up in a family business too. My parents owned a retail business. I kind of feel like it was in my blood. I mean, that\u2019s what we talked about over dinner, you know? Customers, and what you, and how you handled things. My dad did all the marketing and advertising. He had this big architect\u2019s table he used to work, and I was fascinated by it.<\/p>\n<p>I had that sort of early on, but the funny thing about it was I was a rebel. I know that\u2019ll surprise you guys, and I was like, \u201cI\u2019m not getting into business. I\u2019m going into something creative. I\u2019m going to be an artist, or I\u2019m going to change the world,\u201d and I don\u2019t say that tongue in cheek. I really felt strongly about it. It was like business just seemed so mundane to me, but it turned out that it was something I really loved, and I was really good at.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a really long, interesting story about how I got into it, which I\u2019ll tell you some other time, but in terms of starting the agency I was working with some people sort of casually, and one was a graphic designer, and one was a typesetter. This was back in the days when &#8230; It was really pre-PC. All these things that we did for clients, I mean it was &#8230; You were making mock ups by hand.<\/p>\n<p>The three of us thought, and we had some &#8230; We had really diverse kind of clients. Like everything from hospitals and universities to smaller, small and medium sized businesses. We thought, \u201cWell, hey. What if we put our skills together and expand it, and appeal to a wider variety of types of clients, but we could also offer more services?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Those days I was kind of the person who ran the business, and brought in business, which is maybe speaks to this sales bit. We had people working for us in different ways that we did things. We probably employed two entire courier companies in Manhattan at the time. Had all these bicycle messengers running back and forth with our bits and pieces because even then we were kind of working virtually.<\/p>\n<p>We were all working out of our own offices, yet working together, and I really like the model. I really, really enjoyed it. When I stopped enjoying it was when we grew, actually, and had to start adding more people, and &#8230; Excuse me. I had to manage people, and hire, and fire people, which I absolutely hated, and I don\u2019t think I was any good at.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s when the business started to sour for me when it grew from being a fun, we\u2019re all in this together, kind of entrepreneurial startup to being something more established, and never from the client point of view. I still enjoyed all the client meetings, and all the courting, and all of that. I just really, really did not like managing people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Just curious, what size was your agency when it felt like it was too big, and all of a sudden it was no longer fun?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, honestly for me it was pretty small. It was about six or seven people. Even at that point I just was really not enjoying it anymore. I enjoyed the coordination. I liked putting everything together, and having everyone do what they were doing, and all of that, like the actual work, and the work product I really enjoyed. It was the having to talk to people about what they were or weren\u2019t getting done, or how they were performing. Just was not my strong suit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:\u00a0<\/strong>You\u2019ve talked a lot about how much you love sales. Are there some specifics about the sales process that you feel like you\u2019ve got nailed down? Things that you always do that you could help me improve my process with?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, for me the sales conversation is just that. It\u2019s really a conversation. It\u2019s kind of similar, to come full circle, to the direct response writing where you\u2019re figuring out &#8230; Excuse me. Sort of what makes that person tick. I have found with clients, and you guys have probably heard this, it\u2019s like the more you let somebody else talk about themselves, the more they like you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s why were letting you talk Amy. We hope that you\u2019ll like us a little bit better after this show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re just trying to make lots of friends through this podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0You know, I have just found in the process, and this again, this is part of my personality, so it\u2019s not great advice. I mean, I\u2019m pretty good with the extemporaneous, but I have found just really asking people about them, and about their business, and finding out what they know as a way of demonstrating expertise, so in other words, you\u2019ll tell me a little bit about your business, and I will ask &#8230; This kind of goes back to one of your other questions about confidence and talking to people. It\u2019s being willing to probe a little bit, and admit what you don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>I remember in early years I felt like, \u201cOh, I should know what they\u2019re talking about,\u201d and then you\u2019d realize it was really either unique to them, or unique to the industry, and they were waiting for you to ask, but you didn\u2019t want to look like you didn\u2019t know something.<\/p>\n<p>You just really ask questions, and delve down, and drill down in the process, but also to never get out of a conversation without expectation set, so you always need to know what\u2019s the next step going to be. If you\u2019re having a conversation with someone, and you\u2019re going to send a proposal, or scope of work, set an expectation, \u201cOkay. Today is Wednesday, Rob, so what do you need in terms of time, and what\u2019s your ultimate timeline, and when can I expect a decision from you, or when should we talk again, or what else do you need to make a decision?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Asking very forward questions, and doing it in a way that\u2019s at the same time friendly, but also sets expectations, and I think what happens is it makes the process clearer for you, and so you\u2019re not waiting, and wondering going, \u201cShould I, and is it too soon, or is it too late?\u201d I think it gives you confidence, but I think it also gives the client confidence when they feel that you\u2019re in control of the process, and probably more than anything, when they feel you actually have a process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I imagine that\u2019s huge. It seems like when you take control, and you say, \u201cOkay. The next step is I\u2019m going to deliver a proposal, or I\u2019m going to start the research process,\u201d and then the client actually sees you taking action, or receives the proposal when you say you were going to give it, that seems like a really big step where they look at it and say, \u201cYeah. Amy has got this under control. I can trust her. I\u2019m glad I hired her. She\u2019s worth every penny.\u201d That kind of a thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you know what\u2019s interesting is, and I don\u2019t know if you guys run into this too, but I have run into &#8230; I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ve run into the copywriters, but I get so many clients who tell me about bad business practices of creative people they\u2019ve worked with. Whether it\u2019s copywriters, or designers, like people who just don\u2019t do what they say they\u2019re going to do.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, this is sad, but I think you can have a real leg up just if you\u2019re reliable and competent. I think I heard someone say once, \u201cYou can eat a lot better if you\u2019re a mediocre copywriter who shows up and gets the job done, than if you\u2019re like the best copywriter in the world, and you\u2019re a primadonna.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> We interrupt this interview for a very special announcement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0The Copywriter Club has our first sponsor. It\u2019s Airstory. Before we get into what Airstory does for writers, we just wanted to share that this is actually a sponsorship we went after. We actually approached Airstory because we like the tool so much, and said, \u201cHey. Would you guys like to sponsor the show?\u201d We were thrilled when Joanna said yes that they would like to. Kira, you\u2019ve played around a little bit with the tool. How would you use it as you create the sales pages that you work on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:\u00a0<\/strong>Recently I used it with a fellow copywriter, and we were working on a sales page together, so it\u2019s a great tool to use with team members, fellow collaborators, and you\u2019re able to kind of piece the cards together with different sections of copy. Maybe you have a card for objections, or for pain points, for key benefits, and you can kind of piece it together, and create a sales page in an easy to use environment with a collaborator. It beats jumping into Google Docs.<\/p>\n<p>My Google Docs usually look like a disaster by the time I\u2019m done with them, and I have a hard time keeping track of all the content I need, so Airstory\u2019s been a great way to stay organized, which is a challenge for me at times.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Airstory has this beautiful interface. It works really well. It connects with Slack and Evernote, Typeform, even Gmail. If you want to learn more about Airstory go to airstory.co\/club to join and start your first project. Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Amy, how do you present your proposals throughout this entire process because I feel like that can be the awkward point in the relationship for a lot of people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you know it\u2019s interesting. First of all, this year, just this past year, I stopped sending what I &#8230; I stopped calling them proposals, and I called them \u201cScope of works\u201d or \u201cScopes of work,\u201d \u201cScope of work.\u201d How do you say &#8230; What\u2019s the plural?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0I think scopes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Scopes I think. Scopes of work. Part of that is like this subtle psychological thing where if I\u2019m proposing, you haven\u2019t accepted. If it\u2019s a scope of work, I\u2019m just presenting the work to be done.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong> Yeah. It feels like it puts me in a little bit of a more advantageous position, and I also &#8230; I really try and get to some key points before creating that, and one of the key, key, key, key points is price, and I don\u2019t always do it, but one of the things I\u2019ve really tried to do more and more this year is to make sure that we\u2019ve at least discussed some kind of ballpark price, so that if there\u2019s something in the proposal, or the scope, if there\u2019s something that they\u2019re not accepting right away, I want to have a sense of what it is or why, so I can have a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>I think the big, the thing that really sort of freaks us out as copywriters in submitting proposal is we agonize about the price. Should I price it at this? Should I price it at that? I didn\u2019t hear from them. Was it too much? Should I make it less? I think if you\u2019ve already had that conversation it removes a lot of the stress and expectation. It also keeps you from spending the time because it takes a lot of time to write that stuff up.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve kind of systematized that a little bit, so it doesn\u2019t take as much time, but I think that\u2019s part of it is to have a sense of whether they\u2019re going to go for that part of it, so that\u2019s not the barrier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you price your projects? Do you have a minimum rate, or minimum project fee that you do? Do you think things through by the hour? Do you just sort of know that if it\u2019s a sales page it\u2019s going to be $2,000 or $5,000, or I don\u2019t know what your price points are, but how do go about pricing a project?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Boy, that is such a good question. I\u2019m finding myself just really at a crossroads with that question right now because I\u2019m raising my prices, and I\u2019ve been finding things are just all over the map. It\u2019s like you could do a sales page for someone who\u2019s happy to pay, you know like a long form sales page, so we\u2019re talking like probably somewhere like 20 pages, or 25 pages. They\u2019re people who\u2019ll pay you 2,000, and there\u2019s people who\u2019ll pay you 20,000. It\u2019s like, which? Obviously you want the $20,000 clients, right? If you feel confident enough to A, get them, and B, quote them that.<\/p>\n<p>To answer your question, I never quote anything by the hour. I never have. I mean not to a client. Everything is by the project, but in my mind, not so much anymore, but the way that established prices was by deciding sort of a rough hourly rate, and then spending probably a good part of not last year, but the year before, tracking every project that I did. It was really &#8230; It\u2019s tedious.<\/p>\n<p>You start writing at 11:00, and if you stop at &#8230; Yeah. If you stop at 11:10, \u201cOkay. 11 to 11:10 because the phone rang. I worked on X,\u201d and then you\u2019d pick it back up at 11:30, so anyways. I had to learn how long it really took me to do stuff, and then I\u2019d price accordingly.<\/p>\n<p>Now, what I do I\u2019m pricing more by what I think the market will bear, and testing that out. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s really helpful, or if you need me to get more granular on that, so it\u2019s more helpful to other people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d like you to get more granular. What do you mean by testing the market?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Just to give you an example. I was doing &#8230; I had a client come to me, not this year, but the year before, and they wanted me to write an email series. I\u2019m trying to remember how many it was. There was like 20, 25 emails. They wanted to pay me I think $6,800. You know, I always ask people, \u201cWell, what\u2019s your budget, or do you have a budget?\u201d I\u2019d say like 90% of the time people say, \u201cWell, no. Why don\u2019t you just get back to me with something.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>When I asked this client they said, \u201cWell, we\u2019ve got,\u201d I think it was $6,800 for this. At the time that was more than I would\u2019ve charged for that. That was one of these eyebrow raising moments when you go, \u201cOkay. Well, if they\u2019ll pay close to seven grand for this work that I would\u2019ve maybe quoted 3,500 for, who else will pay that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know I have to admit, I\u2019ve totally lost my train of thought, so what am I answering for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Just how your testing the market with your sales process, and your rates, and the rates that you throw out there now, and how does this different than what you used to do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Really that\u2019s it. When something like that happens, then it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, I can &#8230; Maybe I can raise my rates over here,\u201d and so that\u2019s what I\u2019ve done incrementally. I think for the base rate I run in my head, I mean I know what certain things will take me, and so I run that in my head, and then I add. Then I go, \u201cOkay. If that comes out to four grand, what do I think the market will bear? Can I quote it at six? Can I quote it at 10?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you a story, which I think I told you last time, and it\u2019s less fresh in my mind because it had just happened, but a client, this is a long-term client of mine, came to me and they wanted some copy, and they need it in a hurry. What had happened with this client previously is &#8230; This was their story, right? They would not get in touch for a while, then they\u2019d get in touch and they needed it immediately. They pay pretty well, so I would usually jump when they wanted something immediately.<\/p>\n<p>Well, this time I thought, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to charge them like a little pain in the ass tax,\u201d and I wasn\u2019t sure how much to charge them, so I pulled a number out of a hat, and then I got some consultation on what I should charge, and the advice was to bid about twice what I was considering, and so &#8230; This was on a project that I probably would\u2019ve bid maybe, I\u2019m going to guess, between 16 and $18,000, and I was told to bid 35, and I was like, \u201cNo way.\u201d Like, \u201cI just can\u2019t.\u201d I couldn\u2019t stretch myself there, but I stretched to 27\/5, and the client said yes in a heartbeat.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:\u00a0<\/strong>You should\u2019ve stretched all the way to 35.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe. I don\u2019t know. You know, I felt really fine about it at 27\/5. I mean it feels really good for me, but yes. Could I have stretched to 35? See, this goes back to this other question. I\u2019m not sure I would\u2019ve felt comfortable asking that, and they may hae said yes, but I didn\u2019t feel at all like, \u201cOh. I missed out on five or $7,000.\u201d I felt like, \u201cYes. I got way more than I would\u2019ve asked.\u201d This informs what I need to do in the future, or how I need to think about A, pricing, and B, who I work with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I want to go back to the thought where you were talking about this project where the client said that they had a budget that was higher than what you were originally charging. I often ask clients, in fact I always ask clients for their budget, and a lot of clients are really hesitant to give me the budget because I think they\u2019re thinking in their heads, \u201cIf I say $10,000, or if I say $5,000, and Rob is actually at $3,000, he\u2019s just going to increase his rate to $5,000 because he\u2019s going to, he wants to take that whole budget.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not sure that I really approach it like that. When I look at it, I want to understand a client\u2019s budget so that I can see first of all, \u201cIs it within my minimum?,\u201d because I do need to make a certain amount of money obviously, but second of all, do they have money that maybe could be used in different ways, right? Instead of just approaching it from a copy standpoint, I also want to look at marketing things, and say, \u201cOkay. Well, you came to me for a sales page, and I can do it for X, but we still got money leftover in the budget. Maybe we can build a drip campaign, or a sideways email &#8230; Sorry. A sideways sales page. Whatever they call those that are dripped out over a series of emails and use that budget in a way that benefits the client.<\/p>\n<p>I just want to clarify. You\u2019re not saying, \u201cMake sure you get every penny out of the client that you possibly can.\u201d You\u2019re basically saying, \u201cYeah. Maybe the market is higher than what you are. Be aware of that, but be smart in how you\u2019re using your client\u2019s money.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I think that\u2019s really important to clarify. I don\u2019t think &#8230; It\u2019s not a money grab. It\u2019s not like, \u201cOh. Let me get as much as I can here,\u201d but it\u2019s like how do you position yourself A, for what the market will bear, but for different types of clients. I mean it\u2019s funny because you can underbid yourself too, and someone will think, \u201cOh. They must not be a professional, or they must not be any good.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The other client who wanted to pay 7,000, and then if I came back with 3,500, maybe they would\u2019ve doubted me a little bit. Rob, how do you do that? How do you &#8230; How do you have that conversation with a client? I mean, I\u2019ll give you an example. You\u2019re right. People think you want to eat up the whole budget, and I\u2019ll say to them, \u201cDo you have a budget? I want you to understand I\u2019m not going to &#8230; If you tell me your budget is 5,000, I\u2019m not going to automatically come back and say, \u2018Well, the project is 5,200.\u2019 What I want to know is what do we have to work with here, and what can I offer you?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s just what you\u2019re saying, and so if can get into that conversation with them and let them see that you\u2019re not just the writer. You\u2019re not like a writer to order like, \u201cOh. Hey, I need a sales page,\u201d and so you crank out a sales page. You\u2019re going to look at it more strategically, and say, \u201cOkay. What is this sales page, and where does it fit into your whole marketing picture?\u201d They say, \u201cOh, well they\u2019re going to slap up the sales page,\u201d and they haven\u2019t thought about how they\u2019re going to drive traffic to it, or what they\u2019re going to do once they drive traffic to it, and someone opts in.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s all these moving parts that we\u2019re aware of that they aren\u2019t necessarily. Is that how you approach it Rob? I mean, do you have that big picture overview first, or how do you do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I mean obviously I have a project minimum, and so my first question is really to make sure that somebody\u2019s coming to me, and they\u2019re not asking for a sales page and five emails, and their budget is $1,200, right? Because my time is worth more than that, and I can\u2019t serve that customer as well as maybe somebody who is in that budget area, but yeah. I look at it as we\u2019re solving marketing problems for our clients, and we\u2019re not just delivering copy.<\/p>\n<p>We often times call ourselves copy writers, or that\u2019s the product that we deliver in the document, or in the wireframe, but the customer doesn\u2019t really care what the words on the page say really. What they care is that somebody\u2019s buying their product or their service, and so you need to sort of take a more holistic look, or at least I try to take a more holistic look.<\/p>\n<p>If somebody came to me for a sales page, and said, \u201cHey. We\u2019ve got $40,000 for this,\u201d if it wasn\u2019t going to take me two months to write it, I would have a really hard time saying, \u201cWell, yeah. My rate just happens to be $39,500, so we\u2019re in the same place.\u201d I wouldn\u2019t do that. My rate is still going to be roughly in somewhere between say 3,000 and $8,000 just sort of depending on what\u2019s required from a customer research standpoint, how much time it\u2019s going to take, if I\u2019m writing a 70 page like the stuff that Ramit Sethi does, it\u2019s going to be more than say a 5 to 10 page sales letter, right?<\/p>\n<p>All of those factors come into it, but yeah. I want to know the client\u2019s budget simply because I can then help them maybe figure out better ways to use what they may have budgeted for something that they\u2019ve over budgeted for, or in some cases, they have under budgeted, and I just want to make clear that I can help them solve the problem, but it\u2019s going to take me three or four, or a week or two weeks time, and that time is worth something, and I need to be able to capture that value.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think you just made a really important point, and I think especially for anybody listening to this who\u2019s newer in the process, it\u2019s &#8230; You know, I think we tend to think of the work product like here is X pages of copy. What we don\u2019t think about as much, or maybe we don\u2019t &#8230; The client is as aware of is how much work goes into getting to the place to write the copy. I think if you do your research properly, and you do all that work, the copy in some ways writes itself, but that\u2019s the real &#8230; I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s the real work behind it. I guess or some of those other things, and I think you can\u2019t discount that as the writer, and you need to educate people about that because they don\u2019t necessarily understand.<\/p>\n<p>They don\u2019t need to know every little thing that goes into it because part of it\u2019s like your secret sauce and your magic, but I think you can underestimate that as a writer. I think newer people tend to write that off, or they feel like they\u2019re not doing it right if they\u2019re spending a lot of time in advance where that\u2019s really &#8230; It took me a long time to realize that\u2019s really where most of the time goes. Would you agree? Is that fair to say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> I totally agree. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Amy, I just want to jump back to the $27,500 that you made on that recent project. What were you thinking? What is the psychology behind it when you land a project like that, and you\u2019re like, \u201cOh my goodness. This is the most I\u2019ve ever charged, and I just landed it,\u201d because I feel like there could be some fear around the project when you actually get it. How can you deliver on it? Maybe not at your stage. You\u2019re more experienced, but I could see that happening for newer copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah, and you know I think actually that particular thing that you\u2019re describing &#8230; Well, it can be your stress, or your &#8230; What is it? It\u2019s like a fear of producing, or of being good enough, or of doing it right. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s necessarily tied into the dollar amount. It isn\u2019t for me. Just to give you an example, with this particular client I\u2019ve done a lot of work for them over the years. I\u2019ve probably been working with them for, I don\u2019t know, maybe two, three years, so I didn\u2019t feel nervous.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t feel like, \u201cOh, no. Now I\u2019ve got this price out there. I\u2019ve got to be worth it.\u201d Where with other clients where I\u2019m newer, and it could be even a lesser amount, there\u2019s always that like showing them the first thing that you\u2019ve done for them ever because that\u2019s sort of where the rubber hits the road, right? You find out it\u2019s like &#8230; You\u2019re waiting for them to respond, and say like, \u201cWho are you? How did you miss the mark so badly?,\u201d or, \u201cWow. How did you get this when I haven\u2019t been able to articulate this for 10 years, and you came along and said it perfectly?,\u201d or you get some response in between.<\/p>\n<p>I think, and I have to admit, I still have that stress with a new client. Much more with a new client. For me I guess it\u2019s more related to that then it is to the dollar amount. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s helpful at all, but it really &#8230; The money thing doesn\u2019t phase me other than getting me excited. It\u2019s like, \u201cI did this. I broke a barrier. I want to do this again,\u201d but it doesn\u2019t make me nervous than about the output.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0We could probably talk about money for another 10 or 15 minutes because it\u2019s one of those curiosities that like nobody ever talks about it, so Kira and I &#8230; All of our guests we like, \u201cOkay. Let\u2019s talk about this,\u201d and hopefully they will.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0We should call it the money show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0There you go. I want to step back, and ask a different kind of question Amy, and that is you know if you could go back in time, and you\u2019ve got copy cub beginning writer Amy Posner, and you could give her some advice, knowing what you know now, what would you tell her?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a really good question. I think what I would say is that it really all unfolds, and it takes time. It\u2019s like I think when you first get in you look at other people who are making more money, and you think either A, it\u2019s rarefied air, and there\u2019s not enough room for you, or B, you don\u2019t see yourself as good enough to get there, and I was absolutely in that position, and I think most of us are.<\/p>\n<p>This is probably not just true in writing, but probably anything that you start and you\u2019re the new kid on the block, but I think with the writing what I see is two things happen. It seems to take about two or three years, and suddenly you feel like you have your chops, you know what you\u2019re doing, you\u2019ve made enough mistakes, and bid enough projects wrong, and lost enough projects that you\u2019re a little bit hardened and seasoned. The experience just starts to add up, and you attract better people, and you get clearer about what you want. When you get clearer about what you want, you get more of it.<\/p>\n<p>I think the main thing I would say is to know that you have to pay your dues, and that it will happen. I think some of the things we\u2019ve been talking about like developing your business skills along with your writing skills, and thinking about how you run your business, and how you want to show up as a business person, I think all of those things they take time to develop. You can\u2019t get in and know them instantly. It just doesn\u2019t work that way.<\/p>\n<p>I think what i would tell myself, and hopefully it would be relevant for other people is to be patient, and be willing to be a beginner. Be willing to be a cub. One thing that I did not do was seek help or seek input as much as I would have if I wasn\u2019t such a private and ornery type of personality-<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:\u00a0<\/strong>When you say seek help, you\u2019re talking about an advisor? You\u2019re talking about a mastermind group? Are you talking about a partner? What does seeking help mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. Not a partner. I\u2019ve done a lot of partnerships. That would not be what I would recommend for seeking help. Mastermind is great. Other copywriters. Getting input. Having people look at your work. Looking at other people\u2019s work. I got a coach a number of years ago when I decided to really get serious about this business. Someone to help me figure out how to run this business, but I was not &#8230; I just wasn\u2019t as open I think as I could\u2019ve been. It took me a while.<\/p>\n<p>I think any of those kinds of things. Connecting with &#8230; Maybe it\u2019s different for everyone what\u2019s meaningful for them, but finding what that is, and investing in yourself, and investing in the business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong> Well, I find comfort in that advice because your basically saying just show up. Show up everyday. It seems to be a theme of a lot of our calls and interviews. Just continue to show up and things will get better, which is always good to hear. Amy, I have one big question. It\u2019s kind of talking about the money again, but we keep talking about getting better clients. You know, life gets better when you get better clients. They\u2019re easier to manage. Cooler projects. Blah, blah, blah. How do you find those 20K, 27\/5, clients that have those budgets, that know what they\u2019re doing, they\u2019re a pleasure to work with? Where are they hanging out? Where can I go and find them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a really good question. I don\u2019t have the answer to it. I wish I did. I think, I mean there\u2019s certain industries where there\u2019s a lot of copy being written, like financial, like in the wellness space, in SAS. I think it\u2019s kind of this is the big question in this business because I think this is the hunt. It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay. Where do your skills intersect with the people who need them and can afford them?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Like I said earlier, I used to go for these smaller businesses and they would need, maybe every year, or two, or five, they would need a six or an $8,000 copywriting project, and that\u2019s great, and that\u2019s not a bad fee at all. I\u2019m not knocking the fee, but if they only need it once in a while, you have to look for a lot of those, where if you look to some bigger companies &#8230; I think you have to get online and hunt them down, and figure out what kind of companies might you work with, and then start poking around.<\/p>\n<p>What kind of content do they put out? What kind of copy do they put out? Knowing if they have the budget, and if they outsource. I don\u2019t know. Rob, do you have an answer for that? You\u2019ve been doing this I think longer than I have.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re making me sound so old. I think it is a tough one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0I haven\u2019t been doing this my whole career. Let\u2019s be fair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0It is a tough one, and I think you\u2019re right. For the most part the big fees are going to come from big companies, and that brings up a whole other issue of its own. Working with big companies and bureaucracies can be really difficult. There are some people who understand copywriting and value it who pay high fees for one-of projects, but when you\u2019re talking about retainer projects, you\u2019re really working with profitable companies that have the budget, probably have a marketing department, and an ongoing need for constant copy in order to justify that kind of an engagement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s interesting. I\u2019ve worked on and off in the health and wellness niche, and I think you have too Rob, haven\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0I have. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Interestingly, I mean, I kind of just fell into something recently with a client who I did a trade for for referrals, and it\u2019s in that space, which I have one really good client, repetitive client that I\u2019ve had in that space, but funnily enough, I haven\u2019t delved deeper into it, and I\u2019m kind of scratching my head about that now because I\u2019m seeing how much money there is, and how much constant copy there is being cranked out, and it\u2019s just the kind of copy that I like to write, so I think &#8230; This is sound so tripe because I\u2019ve heard it for years and I could just never land. It\u2019s like, \u201cOkay. Where\u2019s the crossover between what interest you, where you have skills, and where people are spending money?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t have to be something that you absolutely love, and you\u2019re passionate about, like if all you want to do when you\u2019re sitting at your desk is fill in the blank, ride mountain bikes, or go golfing, that you\u2019re going to write in that space. I mean, it\u2019s great if you can, but is there money in that space. What else interests you enough so that you\u2019re not going to get bored.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve written in industries where it\u2019s like, \u201cOh my god. If I have to think about this for another minute I\u2019m going to smash my head on the desk because it\u2019s stultifying. It\u2019s just awful.\u201d I think you have to find something that you like enough that it can keep you interested where there\u2019s money being spent, and so I think that\u2019s just really &#8230; It\u2019s a hunt, but I\u2019ll just say one thing about that because I\u2019m making it sound sloppy.<\/p>\n<p>The thing is, if you\u2019re willing to do that, you can go after those clients, and there\u2019s all kinds of clever ways to do it, and get your foot in the door. I think it\u2019s way harder figuring out who to go after than it is going after them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0We are out of time, but this has been really informative. As I\u2019ve listened to how you approach your clients, and realize that I really need to dial up my game when it comes to pricing, and be smarter about what the market will bear, but also making sure that I provide that value to my clients. Amy, if people are looking for you online, where would they go to find you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s my name is my website. Amy Posner. A-M-Y P-O-S-N-E-R dot com. Hopefully within like a few weeks it\u2019ll be a brand new site.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0We can\u2019t wait to see it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you Amy. I really feel like this was even better than our last conversation with you, so thank you, and I just want to say I think you always are so excited about your writing projects, and it inspires me because you truly enjoy writing. You enjoy the process. You enjoy everything about it. It\u2019s a pleasure to hang out with you, and write with you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong> Yeah. I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>AP:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, right back at you. I love what you come up with. It\u2019s like, \u201cWhere do you come up with some of the things you think of?\u201d Man. You impress me every time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>KH:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>RM:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the 11th\u00a0episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with direct response copywriter\u00a0Amy Posner running an agency and her move to freelancing, her lead magnet and what she [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[17,3],"class_list":["post-311","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-amy-posner","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 11: Advice for a Beginning Copywriter with Amy Posner - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/amy-posner\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast 11: Advice for a Beginning Copywriter with Amy Posner - 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