{"id":335,"date":"2017-02-09T05:14:35","date_gmt":"2017-02-09T00:14:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=335"},"modified":"2018-01-05T05:37:59","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T22:37:59","slug":"joanna-wiebe","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 14: The Original Conversion Copywriter with Joanna Wiebe"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>The one and only Joanna Wiebe, who invented the title, conversion copywriter, joins Rob and Kira for the 14th episode of <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>. They talk about Joanna&#8217;s ambition to be a dermatologist (she&#8217;s never talked about this publicly before), dropping out of law school on the first day, being a creative writer (and how that was a mistake), what she would do if she had to build her business from scratch today, where Joanna finds inspiration\u00a0and a bunch of other copy-related questions.\u00a0\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5111\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-335-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC014.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC014.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC014.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC014.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=335-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC014.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC014.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><br \/>\nCopyhackers<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.intuit.com\">Intuit<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/the-200k-in-2017-freelancer?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The copywriter mastermind<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.fresh.com\/US\/skincare\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Fresh Skin Care Products<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/neilpatel.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Neil Patel<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com\/one-good-idea\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob&#8217;s Newsletter<\/a> (which Joanna says is \u201creally good\u201d)<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/brianclark\">Brain Clark<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.copyblogger.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Copyblogger<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/booklaunch.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Tim Grahl<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/jen-havice\/\">Jen Havice<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.deepdyve.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Deep Dyve<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/2016\/11\/note-to-self-on-time-management\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Joanna\u2019s post on time management<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/toddherman.me\/about\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Todd Herman<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1440511411\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1440511411&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=d2dbe41b8d8c932000f459339fce6a10\">Dan Kennedy\u2019s <em>Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0887232981\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0887232981&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=16b76476b8e2bf299a37188ca734d543\"><em>Breakthrough Advertising<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-joel-klettke\/\">Joel Klettke<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/sam-woods\/\">Sam Woods<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.danmartell.com\/about\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Dan Martell<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.wordweaverfreelance.com\/who-i-am\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Laura Weaver<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at <a href=\"http:\/\/airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">airstory.co\/club<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 14 as we chat with the original <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">conversion copywriter<\/a>, Joanna Wiebe, about how copywriters can build a platform to get noticed, how she built her list, and what she would do differently if she had to start over today, how writers can command bigger paychecks, and what she\u2019s learned working one-on-one with writers in her mastermind group.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Hey Rob. Hey Joanna. How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey Joanna.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Hey guys. Nice intro. I love it. Your voices are both very radio friendly. It\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Maybe we need a radio show instead of a podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> NPR will pick this up, so don\u2019t worry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s the goal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joanna, we are really thrilled that you\u2019re willing to chat with us. Maybe we could start with you just telling us a little bit about your story. I noticed on your, on the Copy Hackers site in your bio you mentioned that if you weren\u2019t a writer you\u2019d be a dermatologist, which kind of makes me laugh because I cannot even think of myself doing that sort of thing. But tell us a little bit about just your history and your story and how you became a writer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> It\u2019s so long. I fell like it\u2019s, like I have to get much better at editing myself when I speak, so apologies. Or that\u2019s a terrible way to set it up actually. This is going to be a very exciting story. Are you ready?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> There you go. We\u2019re ready.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I fell into copywriting. I had been a law student and I graduated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t know that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> No, for two whole days. I love the idea, like I love the LSAT. I finished my English degree. I went lived in Japan. Of course in Japan I was like isolated in the middle of Hokkaido which is the northernmost island and I was in the very middle of it. It\u2019s snowing constantly for like nine months of the year. I was very isolated and I got some LSAT books and I just started practicing the LSAT. I went through thousand LSAT practice books and I really loved it. I loved the game side of it so I was like, \u201cWell, maybe I\u2019ll just like go and see if I can like, what if I just like become a lawyer. Okay, I could do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I took the LSAT and I got into law school. It was actually the night before, the night before my first day of law school my dad died, the night before. You\u2019re like, \u201cOh crap.\u201d I emailed the U of A where I was going and just said like, \u201cHey, this happened. I\u2019m still going to come,\u201d but I\u2019m like, \u201cThis just happened,\u201d and they were like, \u201cCool, no worries.\u201d They were all very good and the profs pulled me aside after. It was a very nice thing. But I decided after the second day it was just, I was a mess. My dad was like everything to me.<\/p>\n<p>After that I was like, \u201cOkay, well I\u2019ll deffer for a year and I\u2019ll come back.\u201d Of course I think they all know, like once you deffer you\u2019re probably not coming back. I was floundering for two months and I had a friend who worked at an agency. She was like, \u201cWell, we\u2019re looking for a writer,\u201d and I was like, \u201cCool,\u201d so I went through and got the job. I didn\u2019t know what marketing was. I didn\u2019t know what we would do at an advertising agency, but I liked the idea of having creative writer on my business card, that\u2019s neat, and maybe even getting paid to write which is like when you\u2019re an English major that you\u2019re told every day like this will never happen, like enjoy these four years but after this you have to go and figure something else out. To be able to do that was really, really cool. But I didn\u2019t know what any of it was and so I got the title creative writer which was a huge mistake.<\/p>\n<p>Then you start writing copy as a creative writer which rule number one is clear over clever. To go there, it was really good for tag lines and coming up with concepts, but not for actually closing stuff. For small businesses that want to land business, it wasn\u2019t the best approach. It wasn\u2019t until I went to Intuit about two years later that I took on the role of being a copywriter and then focused more on conversion and learning a lot more about direct response, copywriting, and how to apply that kind of stuff to what we\u2019re doing today online and in email. That\u2019s kind of my story.<\/p>\n<p>But along the way, when I was a child, when I was a teenager my skin wasn\u2019t that great. I wanted like I was like, no, if anything, if I could like solve a problem with my life it would be helping teenagers get through having the confidence issue, because I think confidence is a huge part, confidence is a huge part of what you do in life and how you attack or don\u2019t attack things. If you have those little things that hold you back. Anyway, that\u2019s where the dermatology thing comes in, but I suck at science. I wouldn\u2019t have made it even a day there, so that\u2019s my story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> But it\u2019s interesting because you sort of take that same philosophy, you\u2019re not applying it to popping zits and identifying skin cancer but you \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Rob, you should not do that. Everybody knows you don\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> In your masterminds you\u2019re sort of helping copywriters sort of fix those little problems that are holding them back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Amen for that connection.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And increase their confidence.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Yeah, confidence is of course one of the biggest things I think, because copywriting is grounded in writing and writing is a very soft skill. People are like, \u201cWell, everybody can do what I do,\u201d like in your earlier stages like, \u201cOh no, I mean I\u2019m good at it, right? But like, everybody could really do it. If they just sat down and did it, they could do what I do.\u201d It\u2019s hard to feel like, no, like that\u2019s \u2026 Own your skills and you can actually help businesses grow and help customers get the solutions that they\u2019re looking for that they need to solve their problems. But a lack of confidence there holds most copywriters back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, before I ask my serious question, because we went there, what is your top tip for having beautiful skin, because you do. I\u2019ve seen you up close and you have beautiful skin. So how do you do it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Oh my 15 year old self is like loving you right now. I once had this kid, Josh was his name. He was like really mean and he said when I was in like [inaudible 00:06:54] or something he was like, I said something, he was like, \u201cChill out Joanna,\u201d or something like, \u201cWhat are you going to do? Break out about it?\u201d And I was like, \u201cWhat?\u201d That\u2019s like the meanest&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> It\u2019s so mean. Kids were so mean. They still are, like all of the &#8230; Anyways. But thank you. Well I wash my face. What? I use fresh products and that\u2019s worked really well for my skin. I recommend fresh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Well, anyway, so yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay serious question, sorry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I like it. I like it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Rob and I have talked about you a lot already on the show and in the community. We mentioned in episode zero that we, Rob and I had met through the Copywriter Mastermind which you created. We won\u2019t go into how that\u2019s changed our businesses, but since you\u2019ve worked with so many copywriters through the Copywriter Mastermind which is now in the third cohort, what have you seen as some of the top critical mistakes that we\u2019re all, like 90% of us are making over and over again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And if you could leave my name out of the answer that would be&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Well Rob you\u2019re actually the first one on the list.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019m always the good gentleman, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I know I\u2019m on the list too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Watch Rob and do everything opposite. No. So it depends, like between \u2026 Being a freelancer of course is like you have to wear every single hat on the planet, so it\u2019s like well which one of those hats do you have to work on more. One of the bigger things that I see coming up, like it\u2019s not even with your copywriting skills because I think copywriters are always, the ones that I\u2019ve been around are always trying to acquire new skills and learn new techniques knowing that there\u2019s so many techniques and strategies out there and frameworks and formulas, all of these things to work with.<\/p>\n<p>I think a lot of copywriters who are serious about being copywriters already know that. But a lot of like the freelance side of things, for being a freelance copywriter in particular is like \u2026 And it\u2019s not even freelance because this happens in businesses too. If you work in a creative department or marketing department, it\u2019s letting other people drive your copy, and I don\u2019t mean the customer. The customer, yeah, should be the focus of where you find your message, but I mean letting your clients tell you how the copy is going to go, so letting other people drive your copy process and the copy that you end up creating, the copy you end up writing.<\/p>\n<p>For example, when you\u2019re in a client meeting letting the client set up the meeting or waiting for the client to determine when the meeting should be, not sending an agenda in advance. Like failing to control it, it just immediately breeds this environment where clients don\u2019t know that there is a way to approach the whole process of copywriting and reviewing copy in particular. If you don\u2019t control this kind of stuff right out of the gate, control those client meetings, run the client meeting, drive the entire project that you\u2019re working on. If you\u2019re not deeply involved in that, I have found at least if you\u2019re not deeply involved in that, that\u2019s how you end up getting clients who give you feedback like, \u201cI don\u2019t like this,\u201d or almost worse is, \u201cI really like this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That feedback isn\u2019t going to help anybody. They don\u2019t know any better, but it\u2019s your job as a copywriter to help people understand that although it appears your skill set is soft, there\u2019s a lot behind the scene that\u2019s going on that has nothing to do with whether somebody likes or doesn\u2019t like your copy, and going through multiple reviews to get to a place where at long last the boss\u2019 husband or wife says, \u201cYeah, I really like that honey.\u201d That\u2019s bad. A lot of freelance copywriters work with small businesses that do have people who shouldn\u2019t be involved in the copy review process giving that kind of feedback. I think leaving your destiny as a copywriter, as a happy copywriter in the hands of people who don\u2019t know how to deal with copywriters is definitely one of the bigger mistakes I see people making.<\/p>\n<p>It might sound small but it does lead to huge frustration when you find yourself being dragged around by your clients and taking their feedback and actually implementing it, even if it\u2019s not the right thing to do. Like when they say, \u201cOh, shouldn\u2019t we have, you know, a money back guarantee here,\u201d and you didn\u2019t put a money back guarantee there or you don\u2019t believe it\u2019s the right thing to put in there, but you say something like, \u201cOh yeah. No, I can add that,\u201d and immediately I think that devalues what you do. It doesn\u2019t mean you can\u2019t take client feedback, but you have to control that whole thing and you have to help them understand that you\u2019ll listen to their feedback but in the end the copy that you produce for them that you\u2019re going to sign off on is copy that meets certain standards and follows certain rules and isn\u2019t just like Frankenstein together based on a bunch of different opinions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What is the best way to control that review process because as you\u2019re talking through this I don\u2019t think I have a done a great job of controlling it. Do you just say, \u201cHey, like I don\u2019t want your partner to review this copy? It\u2019s just for you.\u201d How do you do it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Actually asking for that feedback in a real way. Like not just like &#8230; This is like, okay, so how does the client get your copy in the first place? Do you email it over or do you present it to them? If you email it over and go like, \u201cHey, here\u2019s the copy, have a look and let me know what you think,\u201d which is a pretty common way of a lot of copywriters presenting copy, this let me know what you think. You have to control and I\u2019m sure that they\u2019re looking for accuracy. It\u2019s not about let me know what you think.<\/p>\n<p>I recommend that when you\u2019re presenting copy to a client, internal or external client, when you\u2019re doing that send the copy about an hour before the meeting so that they\u2019re not reviewing from scratch and let them know beforehand that you will send the copy about an hour before the meeting so they should take a chance, to have a chance to look at it before we get into this meeting. Book an hour to review that copy, even if it\u2019s short copy, especially if it\u2019s short copy, book an hour of their time and then present the copy live to them. That means starting with, okay, here\u2019s a reminder of here &#8230; These are the goals. This is what you wanted us to work toward. Here\u2019s what we learned. Here\u2019s the process. As a reminder, here\u2019s the process that we go through to arrive at this copy that I\u2019m about to present to you today. Here are some interesting findings and now here is the copy and let me walk you through it.<\/p>\n<p>You can walk them through it line by line or you can let them read whatever feels most natural to you and the client at that time. You want them to feel comfortable too. But walking them through it and encouraging them of course to look for things that are inaccurate, that are off brand where they can really point you how it\u2019s off brand, or that are inconsistent with what they were expecting. That doesn\u2019t mean that you will change things. Inaccuracy is yes you will correct those, but things that are inconsistent you will take them in and go away, review, and that\u2019s where it\u2019s good to have a team, you can say review with your team, put your heads together about how to address those and then come back with the final copy for them.<\/p>\n<p>But controlling all of that where the client isn\u2019t saying, \u201cOh here, change that and do that.\u201d Of course clients when they do that, they\u2019re mostly confused about how they should be giving you feedback. They don\u2019t know any better. If you don\u2019t teach them how to give you feedback, then you can\u2019t be too upset when they give you crappy feedback and expect you to implement it immediately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That seems like really solid advice to act like the expert or to be the expert and not the supplier or vendor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> They\u2019re not going to pay you 250 an hour if they think they can do your job better than you do. If they\u2019re running your meeting and giving you feedback and you\u2019re like, \u201cYup, okay, I\u2019ll go do that,\u201d you are not worth 250 an hour anymore. If you control the whole thing and make it so that they\u2019re confident in you, now they, in my experience, can see that you are somebody to look to, to get this stuff done and they don\u2019t question how much they\u2019ve spent.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What are some of the other pieces that are missing? What else, in addition to sort of acting the part, what are the table stakes for being the writer that can command $250 an hour?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> You know, I do th \u2026 Speaking from my experience only it\u2019s, I know that a lot of writers become copywriters because they want, the same reason I took that first job, you want to believe you can get paid to write, and that\u2019s true to a point. You will be using words. It\u2019s true. You\u2019ll be typing them out. Very good. That\u2019s about as far as it gets when it comes to writing. Everything else is really relearning what it is to write copy which is a very different thing than writing anything else. A big mistake I see or a big challenge along the path there is copywriters in order to command higher rates need to be able to point to results.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of copywriters really cling hard to this idea that you can write creative copy. Oh it\u2019s going to be really friendly, fun, wonderful copy, and your voice is going to shine through so powerfully, and it\u2019s going to convert. Well, are you sure it\u2019s going to convert, because in almost every test we run where we\u2019ve put really creative voice stuff up against something that\u2019s more really honestly based in frameworks and formulas that are all like kind of not that fun and they don\u2019t necessarily make the copy \u201csing\u201d the copy that sings loses. It doesn\u2019t always lose. There is room there, but you have to start \u2026 A lot of copywriters start from the creative part where they\u2019re like, \u201cOh, okay, I\u2019m going to take this, what you have here, and I\u2019m going to rewrite in this like really voicey way.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Voice can do incredible things, but voice should come last in my opinion. First, get the message down clear, first, understand exactly what you have to say and the order you have to say it, and using rules, using actual rules like as we know the rule of one is a really good starting point for a lead gen page. Knowing the opening stage of awareness of the visitor to that page, coaching the client toward if they\u2019re trying to drive every visitor there and you know that there\u2019s going to be multiple types of visitors and different stages of awareness, coaching them toward multiple landing pages so you can break them using the rule of one. Get those things down, get that essential stuff down, and then, in the editing process, then come in and do the stuff that\u2019s going to liven your copy up and make the brand look really good to make you feel really good as a copywriter too while also getting those results.<\/p>\n<p>But if you don\u2019t get results, if you can\u2019t point to things where it\u2019s like, \u201cLook, we got this much more money for this person.\u201d It will be, it will always be harder for you to actually command those rates that you could be commanding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I read in one of your articles that your, well one of your recent articles I looked into, your minimum project is $60,000. In some ways I feel like I look at you as like the unicorn of copywriters, because we all want that but it seems so far off and nearly impossible. Yet, you\u2019re doing it. I mean what else, why are so many of us undercharging and is it possible for us to get to that point or is that almost reserved for a select few?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> No I think is, there\u2019s nothing, I\u2019ve said it again and again, and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the world\u2019s greatest story to tell about yourself but there\u2019s really nothing special about me. I don\u2019t approach. I\u2019m just following the rules here. When you\u2019re running a job, when you\u2019re running a small business, you get up every day and you do the work. When someone invites you to speak and promote your business, you go do it and you do it the best you can. I\u2019m not \u2026 But I do think that certain things have helped but they could help any copywriter do it.<\/p>\n<p>Seize every opportunity when it\u2019s early on, seize all of the opportunities that come along, be on podcasts of course, like stuff like that, and especially if that podcast is good at promoting itself because naturally they\u2019re promoting you then. Do webinars for people. Do a lot of guest blogging. I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s like, if some people are like, \u201cOh, it\u2019s not that good for SEO after all.\u201d That\u2019s not what you\u2019re doing it for. Be real about what you\u2019re doing here. You have to promote your business. You have to be known as an expert in X, and if you\u2019re not, why wouldn\u2019t you command higher rates if you\u2019re not the go to person for that thing? If you\u2019re the go to person for email that sells and somebody wants to have emails that sell, if you establish yourself as the go to person for that, you can command higher rates.<\/p>\n<p>Now when I charge a minimum project rate of 60,000 I am immediately disqualifying a huge number of clients and that\u2019s by design. I don\u2019t have time and I don\u2019t have an interest in working with clients that aren\u2019t going to take what we\u2019re going to do and implement it, test it, and then move forward from there. I need to see results with the time that we put in. We\u2019re not trying to take on a lot of clients either at all. When we do these minimum project rates it\u2019s in the hopes that we\u2019ll only have one or two clients at a time because we\u2019re doing so many other things.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, to get there I think the path is really simple. Determine, decide what it is that you\u2019re going to be an expert in, create tons of content about it, say yes to all the opportunities, get that content out there, make that content better than anything that most people will pay for, wherever possible. I\u2019m not saying that all of our stuff is better than what you\u2019d pay for, but where possible be the best at the thing that you do, work really hard at that, and that means the idea of a lifestyle business.<\/p>\n<p>I have not experienced a lifestyle business here. My lifestyle was much better actually when I think about like the number of vacations I went on when I worked at Intuit, I went on \u2026 I was in Hawaii. Lance and I were just talking about this. We were in Hawaii like twice a year and having other vacations too. I haven\u2019t been in Hawaii in like four years, five years. Lance just corrected me. Haven\u2019t been there in forever and that\u2019s because we\u2019re running a different, we\u2019re running something different. It\u2019s really good in so many ways but it does take a lot of work. I think if you think it\u2019s going to take less work just prepare to not have these big projects and just be cool with the smaller projects and then not having to do as much work to promote yourself and your brand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joanna, in your work with Copy Hackers you\u2019ve build this platform for yourself and a really great email list. You have products that you offer from time to time. I know you\u2019re building Airstory which we\u2019ll talk about in a minute. But if you were starting over today and had to build your list from scratch, nobody\u2019s there, you have no contacts with writers, maybe not even with other entrepreneurs, what would you do to build your list and to start your business, to grow it to where again where it is today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> For me I would, I think it\u2019s always a good idea to borrow someone else\u2019s list. That sounds like I hate when people, I\u2019m worried that when I say that people are like, \u201cOkay, good, I don\u2019t have to do any work, I\u2019ll just go email people that I want to have their list.\u201d I wish I had their list and I\u2019ll just say, \u201cHey, can we promote something together?\u201d That\u2019s not a good idea. But what can you do to access other people\u2019s lists? I think that for writers especially writers have the greatest unfair advantage today. We write. This is inbound content marketing. It is all about what we do. If you can do what you do, you can grow your list from there.<\/p>\n<p>That doesn\u2019t mean you should write your own blog post on your own site. Go use someone else\u2019s \u201clist.\u201d That could also mean traffic. So yes, that still means guest posting. That also means writing on Medium if that makes sense. Look at the options out there instead of putting some six ways to write a headline as a blog post on your blog, which you then have to drive a bunch of traffic to and nobody gives a damn about six ways to write a headline anymore. Like everybody knows that or whatever. I just said six ways to write a blog post. I don\u2019t remember what I said. Everybody knows that.<\/p>\n<p>But what interesting thing can you put out there into other\u2019s spaces and really work hard on those pieces, if you want to get in front of Neil Patel\u2019s audience, so how do you form a relationship with Neil Patel, a real one, where nobody expects him to know your birthday or anything, like not a perfect friendship kind of thing, but how do you start talking to him? What can you do? Can you hire yourself to figure out how to get your content in Neil Patel\u2019s audience, if that\u2019s the right audience for you?<\/p>\n<p>Then when you do get that content, when he is like, \u201cSure, I\u2019d like to see that post, great pitch,\u201d or, \u201cJust send me your post,\u201d or, \u201cSure, let\u2019s talk about doing a webinar together,\u201d how, you have to have like the greatest content for that. So growing that list from scratch today I would eliminate any of these older ideas, just start writing on your blog and people will come, unless, unless you have the most killer stories ever in which case cool, maybe, but even then, just put them on Medium and drive people back to your site that way to get like the opt-in bait from that point on, or the content upgrade in that case, but don\u2019t start on a cold site. Start with somebody else\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It seems like the operative word here though is really great. I mean there\u2019s so much crap content out there, even from writers on their own sites, maybe even on my site. How do you get to really great?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Your stuff is really good Rob. I love your stories. I love. I read your newsletters all the time. I love them. Anyways as a side note.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s really nice of you to say, but I mean just sort of illustrating that as an example. Not everyone of my posts is awesome, right? I mean there are days when I\u2019m struggling to come up with content, but like what are your secrets for going from good to really great, to being that different?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> One of the first posts I published was about bullets, bullet lists and how you shouldn\u2019t use too many bullet lists on your site. It got like zero shares and like no comments. I was like, \u201cOkay, so I\u2019m not going to write about something that people don\u2019t care about.\u201d Or, \u201cI\u2019m not going to like just put my thoughts down on the page and like give a screen shot of something that\u2019s wrong versus something that\u2019s right.\u201d I learned pretty quickly because I think a lot of us are driven by like gold stars and pats on the back and if you don\u2019t share my stuff or you don\u2019t comment, then I have a hard time with things. I\u2019m upset.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You want validation, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> We do. Everybody does. So for me I was like, \u201cOkay, well what can we write that people really want to read.\u201d I knew that I had already read a whole bunch of stuff on other people\u2019s kind of foundational copywriting blogs like Copyblogger. I\u2019ve seen all of the foundational stuff there already. I can\u2019t just be another Brian Clark teaching all of this great stuff. I have to say something different. Obviously we need differentiators. So what think I can say differently and that\u2019s were we from that point on started to talk more about split test. We\u2019d run the winners and the losers, and sometimes not just split test we had run but that our friends had run. I\u2019m part of a couple of little groups. When like my friend Tim Grahl, when he writes, when he does a split test and his audience doesn\u2019t need to hear about how he is split testing but my audience does, then I\u2019ll just ask him if I can take his data. So leveraging other people good partners and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, really we know good content. You know it to see it. You know and that often means just a really great story. We\u2019ve put out good data driven content that will teach you something but we haven\u2019t framed it in a story and that hasn\u2019t gone over anywhere near as well as the ones that do. For example, Jen Havice says or hey vices. Jen, it\u2019s the wrong way to pronounce your name. Her posts that she did a couple of years back on working with me on the Summer of Buttons where we did a bunch &#8230; Or no, it wasn\u2019t Summer of Buttons. It was some, I don\u2019t remember what it was. It was some split test, was a series of split test that we did. That first draft of that was just like, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what, here\u2019s what happened.\u201d Then we revised the draft of that post to be like I spent the whole summer running split tests and here\u2019s what I learned or and basically it sucked.<\/p>\n<p>That story, that became our number one post of the year, and it was largely because it wasn\u2019t just talking about like hey split testing is hard and here are examples of how hard it is. That\u2019s all good. But here\u2019s my personal story of like what I went through with data to support it. Those are the kinds of things that we\u2019ve seen work again and again, so now when we do take on guest posts or even when we write things ourselves, we are trying to come at it with a personal side. If it\u2019s not working in the first person it\u2019s not going to be as good as if it is in the first person. That\u2019s like one tip. Yes, stay in the first person, have your own story or narrative around it, but then too support that with as much data honestly as you possibly can, so use any, any learnings you have from your own business where you can say, \u201cOkay, I haven\u2019t run a split test but here\u2019s what we did and here\u2019s what the outcome is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Go on deepdive.com and get an account there and keep reading every month. Subscribe to the Journal of Consumer Research or whatever and keep getting those in and see what studies are being done that could help support something you\u2019re going to write about. People want to hear your story but they don\u2019t just want an editorial piece. They want more than that. That\u2019s I think what we have started, well I know what we are looking for when we write content or publish content.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And that is a great segue into what I was actually going to ask you next, which is about one of your recent posts entitled Note to Self on Time Management, which is a great example of that. You took the personal story and then you added a ton of research and tips. I want to know the story behind that post and what was the catalyst for that, what was happening behind the scenes in your life, whatever you\u2019re willing to share. I also want to know the second part of that is what has changed since writing that post because there was a lot packed in there and a lot of changes that you were suggesting to yourself in that post.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Okay, so what motivated it and then what the outcome is, yes. I had been drafting and outlining this great big wonderful post on how to manage your time better. It was part of freelancer month on Copy Hackers where all of our posts in the month of November were all for freelance copywriters, and one of them was \u2026 One of the big things that we see again and again is freelancers not managing their time well. But that\u2019s also true for me. I was writing this post and I was just feeling like a hypocrite because I kept bumping my deadline for it. I kept moving it out. I kept shifting things around to allow myself more time, which meant Joanna you\u2019re like the last person to teach someone how to manage their time, like you get stuff done, but clearly you are messing up in a lot of ways.<\/p>\n<p>I was writing this post and I realized exactly that. For me to tell this and teach people this it\u2019s not very honest. So I rewrote it. I kept all that &#8230; Well, actually only about a 10<sup>th<\/sup> of the research I had. I had so many cards in our story it was ridiculous. I scrapped like the bottom 75% of this post that I\u2019d already put together and I redid it to say like, hey, really Joanna, like it\u2019s time for you to smarten up and start managing your time better because you have a lot of crap on the go and you are, you\u2019re losing it, you\u2019re not taking advantage of all the opportunities. That\u2019s what motivated it.<\/p>\n<p>I wrote this post in the hopes of helping people understand, especially freelance copywriters that there\u2019s, everybody\u2019s making these mistakes. I am making a lot of mistakes. If you\u2019re making mistakes, cool. Let\u2019s maybe solve this problem together. Like here are some techniques that other people are saying to use. I\u2019m going to try to use them. Then of course what was underneath all of that is hopefully others will use them too.<\/p>\n<p>I wrote this, I published it, I sent it out just to the freelancers on our list, so that was cool. But Todd Herman as something that comes out it, Todd Herman was on the list for some reason on the freelancer one, I don\u2019t know why he was on that one, but we\u2019d connected before because he\u2019s Canadian. We both went to the U of A so we\u2019re from the same area and we know a lot of the same people. We had connected, but it\u2019d been like a year since we talked. Anyway, he emailed me and said, \u201cHey, I read your post. I can help you,\u201d and I was like, \u201cOkay, cool.\u201d Then he\u2019s like, and I\u2019m, \u201cOkay, great. Let\u2019s get on a call,\u201d and he sent me his questions in advance and I was like so nervous. I was so nervous going into that call it was ridic &#8230; I was certain, I was certain he was going to say like-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s so funny. You\u2019re the expert. He\u2019s expert in his field. You\u2019re an expert in your field and you\u2019re still nervous. That cracks me up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely, absolutely. This guy was going to tell me everything I was doing wrong. I was like, \u201cOkay, all right.\u201d I\u2019m just going to get born a new one and I am like going to have to sit through this and be embarrassed and all this kind of stuff. I got on this call with him and he started swearing right out of the gate so I felt instantly like calmer at least, like, \u201cOkay, well he\u2019s not going to expect me to be someone I\u2019m not maybe.\u201d Then he started saying things like the idea of the weekend is a relic. It\u2019s not a real thing anymore, not for people who run their own business. It\u2019s you don\u2019t have to worry about working weekends. You\u2019re allowed to work weekends. And I was like&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh that\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> \u201cWhat?\u201d I know. I know. I was like, \u201cOkay, okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u00a0makes me feel better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I know. Instantly I was like, \u201cI am. I\u2019m not doing it wrong but everybody thinks I\u2019m doing it wrong.\u201d \u201cNope, you\u2019re not doing it wrong.\u201d \u201cOkay, well that\u2019s interesting.\u201d Then he told me about theme day. I don\u2019t want to teach anything that Todd teaches because obviously it\u2019s his and he\u2019s like a genius, but like go, follow Todd Herman if you\u2019re not already to, if time management or productivity is an issue for you. Then I signed up for the 90 Day Year and he said that he will coach me but I am extremely terrified of him coach me personally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Oh wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I know. I\u2019m going to go through the 90 Day Year and then see where I\u2019m at and maybe work directly with him which should be very, very cool. He\u2019s a super nice guy. Yeah, very encouraging, good soul. Yeah, that was the outcome of that. Since then I have themed my days to avoid context switching, and yeah, I don\u2019t beat myself up for working weekends. It\u2019s starting to help me get things under control. Of course I\u2019m going through the 90 Day Year as well which is helping too. That\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Is your almost mother-in-law still telling you that you look tired every time she sees you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I just don\u2019t visit anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I could relate to that one. I was like, \u201cI\u2019ve heard that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Right? Where it\u2019s like honestly every time. She is super nice and she means well, but yeah, when you keep hearing, \u201cOh, you look tired hun,\u201d like really, really? I know I do. I know I do. I don\u2019t need to hear that. I do. What am I going to do about it? Quit my job? I have to keep working. What? Anyway.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>We should definitely add as part of that article that you wrote. You said you weren\u2019t doing podcasts anymore in 2017, and yet you\u2019re here on our podcast. If we\u2019re lucky maybe we\u2019ll even have you back this year. So thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I mean you guys are obviously awesome, so no brainer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Joanna&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Just don\u2019t shut your podcast down. Just keep sticking with it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We\u2019re not, we\u2019re not anywhere near shutting down. Yeah, for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>No, and years. I\u2019m talking years. You\u2019re in this. You\u2019re in this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joanna, one of the things that we\u2019ve seen with you and your business when we are in our Facebook group, The Copywriter Club in Facebook people mention that the way they got started is that they found either Copyblogger or Copy Hackers. Like over and over people are saying Copy Hackers, Joanna had this great impact on getting me started, which is an awesome thing. But I\u2019m curious. You\u2019re the inspiration for so many other people. Where do you find your inspiration? How do you grow?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>That\u2019s a good question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Where did that come from?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow Rob.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know. Something I wrote down somewhere. I don\u2019t know. Every once in a while there\u2019s a flash of something and I might have just spent it for the week. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re done for the week.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Yeah, I want to know where you guys find your inspiration too, because I, I haven\u2019t been asked that question ever, so I am like thinking about it. I can only say, like I know this isn\u2019t going to be very inspirational in any way, but I am a very competitive person and I think for copywriting in particular I\u2019ve, a lot of the time that I was working in-house or at agencies it was really devalued work. While I was doing it I knew that I was talking directly to the people who were going to hand over their credit cards or not going to hand them over. It was on my words. So I felt, I think I always felt kind of shoved down in organizations, even though I don\u2019t think people would look at me and say like, \u201cOh, she feels shoved down,\u201d because I was very vocal and kind of known for that. I don\u2019t know how. I wasn\u2019t even that vocal but somehow I think I just said things in a way.<\/p>\n<p>Anyway, but after \u2026 Going out of that I do feel a bit of a drive I think to prove that copywriting is hugely valuable, not a luxury, an absolute necessity, and that there are skilled copywriters that can really change your business. That\u2019s not an inspiration thing. That\u2019s a drive thing. What inspires me will probably make me like cry or something if I think about like past inspiration, so just-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We\u2019re trying to get more tears. We\u2019re trying to get more tears in the show to up our ratings&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>No more crying, no more crying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So that\u2019d be great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know what &#8230; I can\u2019t say I absolutely know outside of like the things that have happened throughout life and the people that I have known that are inspirational having come from a background with, right, very little money and seeing my dad go through university when he had seven mouths to feed. It\u2019s like if he could do that, what could possibly really stop me. I don\u2019t have any of the barriers that he had. I think I\u2019d be kind of lazy not to push myself hard and try to be the sort of person. I\u2019m not going to finish that off. I\u2019m going to start crying. Rob, stop asking the hard questions. They\u2019re too emotional. I\u2019m over it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Like I said, the brilliance only happens once in a while, and I think I\u2019ve just sort of shot that bullet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> He\u2019s going to sit the rest of this out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> He\u2019 done today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> No, what inspires you guys? I do want to know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Well&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, for me from a work standpoint there are the books, the typical books that you read. I like to go back to some of the old DR experts, Dan Kennedy\u2019s <em>Ultimate Sales Letter<\/em> and <em>Breakthrough Advertising<\/em> and that sort of thing. But more than that in the past year sort of hanging out with and talking with more writers has been the most positive thing for me because there are so many smart people out there. It used to be that I would walk into the room and you knew you were the best writer in the room and maybe one of the best marketers. But some of the people that I\u2019ve hung out in the past year, it\u2019s like I\u2019m definitely not. I\u2019m not the best at this or that. So being able to learn from people like Joel Klettke and Kira Hug and Sam Woods and Jen Havice that you mentioned, learning from those people is completely inspiring. I mean that\u2019s I think really where for me the magic is happening at least over the last couple of years. How about you Kira?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I mean it\u2019s the same. I get competitive. I\u2019m really competitive as well. Not totally sure where that comes from. I try to channel that in a positive way. Sometimes I don\u2019t know if Joanna you have this problem, but sometimes it can get really ugly too. I try to use it for good and to kind of motivate me in a positive way, but sometimes it can also just I beat myself up because I\u2019m competing against other people. So it\u2019s good and bad but that definitely pushes me as well.<\/p>\n<p>Okay, I want to ask probably my last question. Recently you shared some really personal stories that maybe you had shared before. I had never read them before. You had like a really touching story about you being a janitor at your high school and you shared more stories about your family and your father. I guess I\u2019m just curious to know what triggered you or maybe you had shared this before, but if this was the first time what triggered you to share those personal stories even through a sales process? I think it was when you were launching 10x landing pages, and what was the impact? Did you see an impact? Did people, did they notice? Did they reach out? Did that change anything for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s interesting. I hadn\u2019t spoken before that webinar or actually for 10x landing pages. What\u2019s funny is I had worked with Dan Martell on helping him kind of get his site out there. Just writing his site essentially. We did a swap where he coached me for Airstory and I wrote some of his copy for his site. When I was doing that I heard his story. I asked him. I went through the interview, learning about who he is and all that kind of stuff. He told this really personal story and I was like, \u201cDan, that\u2019s your story, you have to tell that, you have to.\u201d He was like, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t want to be known for that.\u201d Then now more recently he\u2019s talking about it more. It\u2019s like he\u2019s come around there and saying that it\u2019s a really inspiring story. If you haven\u2019t heard it, check out Dan Martell. I won\u2019t tell his story, but it\u2019s really crazy.<\/p>\n<p>For me, after that, that was like a year ago, and I felt like it wasn\u2019t just that, but other things like my step son. It seemed that he thought I was raised with money and a casual easy life, and not that my life was anywhere near as hard as some are, but it was not a casual easy life growing up. I felt like this growing need to be more honest about where I come from and I think that\u2019s also a big part of for people who are like lacking confidence and they think others are born with it or others, all the cards fell into place for them and everything was always building up to this better life. That\u2019s really, really not true and hasn\u2019t been true for me, and I know that that\u2019s not true for a lot of successful startup founders and people who are out there doing things that other people think are cool and want to do too. There\u2019s a lot of hard stuff there so I wanted to just get more honest about it.<\/p>\n<p>I didn\u2019t tell a whole lot of it, but yeah this story of being a janitor at my own high school while I was going to high school there, I think it can help for me when I think of that and I don\u2019t often think of it, it\u2019s not like the warmest memory ever, but it was a real thing that made me who I am. I think it\u2019s leaving out important parts of your narrative that make you a whole person and that really help people see who you are. I think that\u2019s amiss for a lot of people and I think it was amiss for me. That\u2019s why I wanted to just start talking about it, especially in the context of talking about confidence which I was doing in that webinar it seemed like. If I can be confident after a lot of craziness and hopefully everybody out there can see like, okay, you can get there too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s been so awesome chatting with you Joanna. I feel like we\u2019re like on the edge of running out of time and so we definitely want to have you come back. But before we close, tell us a little bit about Airstory, what you\u2019ve been building. This cool software tool, elegant. I mean it\u2019s beautifully designed, really targeted writers. Tell us a little bit about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019m very excited about it. It\u2019s been a long time in the making, over two years now, but that\u2019s like we went through, built it once and then that partnership fell apart and so I restarted from scratch back in February of 2016. We\u2019re coming up on a year now of it being under way and we\u2019ve had it launch to beta users, a few in the summer and then a lot more from Halloween on of 2016. Now we\u2019ve got all the team stuff built out and everything and we\u2019re getting ready to launch it properly. On February 2<sup>nd<\/sup> I think is the date that we have planned. It\u2019s essentially when I talk about it the easiest way to describe it is it\u2019s like Google Docs and Evernote had a baby and let Trello raise it.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s essentially you\u2019ve got writing space, number one, but what you put on that is a lot easier than working with again Google Docs or Word which are fantastic tools but they\u2019re made for everybody who is writing anything. Airstory is really designed for people who are seriously invested in writing. That really means marketers who work in the world of writing, like everything that happens in marketing generally happens in a document until you publish it. So much happens in that document so where the idea here is that you can drag and drop cards onto your document, move them around and merge them, and then create cards out of whatever is on your document too in a lot of other ways.<\/p>\n<p>There that\u2019s been important and it\u2019s been really useful for us, and we\u2019re getting some very cool feedback now from serious writers. Like Alaura Weaver just wrote to us yesterday out of the blue and said like all these ways it\u2019s changed how she writes. It\u2019s about you making you a fast or more efficient writer. So if you have billable hours, or if you have like aggressive deadlines, you need to get more done in less time. If you can drag and drop your content together instead of manually writing every thought out that you have or copying from here and pasting there and all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>For people who don\u2019t write for a living, it\u2019s not a problem to solve. Great, keep using the tool that you use. But for those who are trying to get a lot done, all of those little inefficiencies are complete time wasters, and especially for people who are consultants or freelancers too working every \u2026 Time and money are critically tied together. There\u2019s no way to separate them. If you are wasting time you are wasting money. That\u2019s where Airstory of course is great in just making you a very efficient content creator.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I love it and it is a really cool tool. I mean it\u2019s elegantly built and it\u2019s just a lot of fun to play around with. If you haven\u2019t and you\u2019re listening to this, you should check it out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Joanna, where can we all find you? Not that &#8230; I think everyone knows by now, but can you share the URL with us?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Yeah, so I\u2019m at copyhackers with an S .com and on Twitter at Copyhackers again with an S, because there is a Copyhacker and we don\u2019t want to go to him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh, interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>He was before me. Yeah, he was there before I was.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So you\u2019re not the original copyhacker.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We have to change our intro.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> My goodness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna: <\/strong>Like I can sue you or me or something.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That\u2019s a terrible way to end the show but I think we\u2019re still-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joanna:<\/strong> Everything is online.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, we\u2019re still going to end the show here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>The one and only Joanna Wiebe, who invented the title, conversion copywriter, joins Rob and Kira for the 14th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. They talk about Joanna&#8217;s ambition [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[19,3],"class_list":["post-335","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-joanna-wiebe","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 14: The Original Conversion Copywriter with Joanna Wiebe - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Conversion copywriter Joanna Wiebe talks about the biggest mistake writers make, what she would do if she were starting from scratch, plus secrets and more\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast 14: The Original Conversion Copywriter with Joanna Wiebe - 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