airstory.co\/club<\/a>.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\nKira: <\/strong>You are invited to join the club for episode 15 as we chat with copywriter Laura Belgray, about her quirky brand, how she works with clients, her copywriting course, and where she finds the clients she loves to work with the most.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Hey Kira and Laura.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Hello.\u00a0Hey. How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\nLaura:\u00a0<\/strong>Oh it\u2019s going great. You\u2019re asking me?<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m asking both of you.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> You\u2019re the guest Laura so \u2026<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> We only care about you. We don\u2019t really care about each other.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Okay, if you don\u2019t care about Rob, it\u2019s going great for me. Thank you.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Laura, I am curious about your brand. It seems like a pretty good place to start. You have this sort of quirky humorous brand. We\u2019re always told that we should niche down and yet it doesn\u2019t feel like you\u2019ve niched your brand at all. Would you tell us a little bit about the thinking behind how you present yourself to the world?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Sure. I mean I got to say I\u2019m so glad that nobody told me that. I didn\u2019t really look into how to set up my brand because it\u2019s sort of evolved almost by accident, back when I was a promo writer for TV and started dabbling with private clients. It was never my intention to build the business of private clients. In fact somebody, my friend Laura Roeder, who you might know, told me, gave me advice way back when. She was like, \u201cDon\u2019t work with entrepreneurs. Stick with TV because entrepreneurs are so cheap.\u201d It turned out to be not so true. They might have been back then, but entrepreneurs now, I think the common wisdom is invest in yourself, invest in your business, invest in the best and they will pay good money for great copywriting. They know how important it is.<\/p>\nIt\u2019s become my business, and I never knew to niche down or niche down or however you pronounce it, and I\u2019m really glad I didn\u2019t know that because I think that I would go nuts writing for one kind of client. I\u2019ve written a lot for say life coaches, and health coaches, and nutritionists, and people like that. The more I serve those clients, the more they come to me, the more I feel like, \u201cOh, everybody\u2019s doing the same thing, everybody wants to say the same thing, everybody serves the same kind of client with the same kind of needs.\u201d How many different ways can you say level up your game? You\u2019ll step into your brilliance or \u2026 light a fire under your butt, or spark your creativity. It becomes very hard when you\u2019ve written for so many of the same kind of client to come up with new ways of saying something, even though there are a million ways to say the same thing. You just burn out.<\/p>\n
I find that if I have a niche at all, it is a mindset among all different kinds of businesses, which is that their business needs to have a personality. They know the importance of standing out and they refuse to be samey or stiff or boring, and they are embarrassed by stiff, boring jargon and business-y buzzwords and they will pay not to have that.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Laura, do you have a favorite, so do you have a favorite project? I know it\u2019s hard to choose, but do you have one that was just totally different and just really a pleasure to write?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>I\u2019ve had so many different random businesses. I mean I\u2019ve helped an Airbnb host who also coaches other Airbnb hosts. I have worked for a sex toy company, a different sex toy company that makes a sex toy like treasure box.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> So you do have a niche?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> I do. But there are also like three or four psychics, one a famous medium. I\u2019m so sorry, that\u2019s my phone. Or like a brand of bar soap where the proceeds benefit preserving the Potomac. I\u2019ve worked for a sobriety gift site for people in recovery who don\u2019t want to wear ugly jewelry. I worked for an SAT tutor. I\u2019ve written stuff for a seafood restaurants, emails, and table signs, things they, like those little triangles that they pop on the table that say we\u2019ve got $1 oysters all through happy hour. Also worked for a chocolatier who only makes chocolate angels. So yep. It\u2019s hard to say.<\/p>\nOne recent one I loved working for was a farmer named Charlotte Smith who started off selling raw milk and that was her business, and it got very popular. She took Marie Forleo\u2019s B-School and learned online marketing and realized how much it helped her business grow and made her business easier. She started teaching other farmers how to market their businesses. They\u2019re total virgins to marketing and totally afraid of it. I really loved working with her. She just comes to mind because she had such interesting concrete things to talk about like raw milk and fresh eggs and organic carrots and schlepping to farmer\u2019s markets versus sending out emails to customers who line around the block for your organic sausage. That kind of stuff. Anyone who was really interesting and different concrete details that they can use is a fun project for me.<\/p>\n
Rob: <\/strong>You mentioned working with Marie at B-School. I think, if I\u2019m not mistaken, your copy course you developed with her, will you tell us a little bit about your course, what it covers, how you developed it, and the results that you\u2019ve seen from that?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Sure. Well our course is called The Copy Cure<\/em>. It was years in the making. Actually we, it sprung from a talk that I did at Marie\u2019s event for 500 called. The event was RHH Live and I did sort of a live copy clinic where I gave tips for writing non-sucky copy. It was I\u2019d say about an hour talk and we said we have to make this into a course because people loved it so much.<\/p>\nI would say what sets our course apart a couple of things. One is it\u2019s completely binge watchable. It\u2019s under four hours. You will write better in an afternoon if you devour it all in one sitting. I consider it the Breaking Bad of copywriting courses. It focuses a lot on putting power and personality into your writing. Although we provide structures and frameworks like a framework for a sales page, frameworks for non-braggy about pages and things like that, we focus most of all on how to chose words that pop off the page and that get into your client\u2019s head and that are compelling and don\u2019t lose people in the first sentence.<\/p>\n
I think one of the problems that I\u2019ve seen with a lot of copywriting courses and instruction the people say, \u201cWrite like you talk, make it fun, tell stories, be entertaining.\u201d But they don\u2019t really tell you how. They don\u2019t tell you the specific techniques to make it entertaining or to make it sound natural, and there are specific techniques. It\u2019s easier \u2026 It\u2019s not just a matter of saying, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to sound like me.\u201d People freeze up when they try to do that. That is really the focus, it\u2019s to help you find your voice rather than just give you permission to use your voice.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Laura, when you were talking about all of the different clients that you\u2019ve worked with, the angel chocolatier. I was just thinking to myself. It\u2019s so fun, and I would love to work with this diverse group of clients as well, and I\u2019m sure other copywriters are thinking that. Are they just all finding you or how are you finding them? How are you all connecting? How is this happening?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>It\u2019s funny. I would say I\u2019m very lucky in that Marie Forleo who has a huge audience has always recommended me and I\u2019ve been visible from the very start, just in a testimonial on her website. I would say that visibility is one thing, like being visible to people who are in all different businesses, who are interested in reading what you put out there. I haven\u2019t always focused on just writing copywriting tips through my blog. My blog has been a creative outlet where I write about all kinds of random things including the latest one which totally grossed Rob out.<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>Yeah, it did. We\u2019ll definitely link to that so that everybody else can get grossed out too.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Yeah, trigger warning. Trigger, it will trigger vomiting possibly. I read about all kinds of random things and I think that those posts attract all kinds of people, and it doesn\u2019t really have to be about copywriting. If they like your style and find out that you are a copywriter, often they\u2019re going to want to use you. Because you have to remember, remember what it\u2019s like when you start out searching for someone to provide a service for you, you kind of don\u2019t know where to start. Like I\u2019ve looked for, I\u2019ve thought like, \u201cI need a graphic designer.\u201d And if I don\u2019t have, if I\u2019m not ensconced in the world of graphic designers, I don\u2019t really know who\u2019s who. So I would be way more inclined to just hire someone that I come across, like, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t know you were a graphic designer. Maybe I can use you.\u201d You hire people that you know, like, and trust. So just getting stuff out there that makes people know, like, and trust you is just as important as establishing yourself in the world of your industry.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Yeah, your newsletter or your email that you send out weekly which links back to your blog is one of the more interesting ones from the writers that I follow. Usually writers send out newsletters about writing or even marketing, that kind of thing. But that\u2019s not your style. You\u2019re telling stories. You\u2019re grossing people out. You do give some advice. In fact, you linked to a video a few weeks ago that I want to ask you a little bit about where you, it was an hour long session with you and a couple of clients on a video call and just the back and forth between you and the client. I\u2019m curious. Is that how you work? Is that how you work with your clients? Because I have to say, in watching that, it sort of gave me chills in that there are so many bad ideas that come up and you don\u2019t necessarily want to expose those to the client before you get to the good stuff. But you were just, you were powering all of this stuff. I was really impressed by that. Tell us a little bit about that.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Thank you.<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>And how that works.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Yeah. What you watched it was called the jam session and it was part of someone\u2019s kind of tele summit thing where he provided jam sessions from a whole bunch of different experts. But what it was was really an exact sample of my typical power hour which is, it was exactly how I do it. I get on Skype or phone with a client. We have a, we\u2019re in a Google Doc. It\u2019s a survey that they have, the client has filled out. A lot of it is about their ideal customer or client avatar. Some of it, like there are questions like what is your short \u2026 What do you do? What\u2019s your longer answer for what you do? How would you describe what you do if you don\u2019t give a crap what anybody thinks? That always provides great material. That\u2019s where they, they just shout their best stuff, and stuff like that, what kind of words do you say that light people up, that make them say, \u201cOh my god, I need to hire you,\u201d or, \u201cI need to get your stuff,\u201d a whole bunch of questions like that.<\/p>\nThey fill that out before the session. Then they can share it with me anytime before our session. Sometimes I look it over beforehand. Sometimes I jump right in at minute one of our session and go right to what copy they want to work on. That\u2019s at the bottom. We\u2019ll work right there in the document. Sometimes they\u2019ll paste it there, the copy they already have there and we\u2019ll change it right there on the spot. Sometimes they\u2019re starting from scratch and we\u2019ll just write notes. Like if we\u2019re working on a tag line or a headline I\u2019ll just brainstorm there with them, and usually I\u2019m the one typing. Sometimes they type but usually I\u2019m the one typing stuff. This way they don\u2019t have to take notes on what I\u2019m saying. In general there\u2019s no like, \u201cWait, wait, what did you just say? I need to get it all down,\u201d or, \u201cCan we record this?\u201d They have it all there in the doc and I just feed off of what they say and come up with ideas.<\/p>\n
You\u2019re right, some are terrible and some are great. Usually I\u2019ll be like, \u201cIt might not be this but, you know, here\u2019s a terrible idea.\u201d Someone\u2019s terrible ideas are inspiring. So I put it all down.<\/p>\n
Kira: <\/strong>When I hear this too it gives me anxiety because I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat if you can\u2019t deliver?\u201d Where do you find the confidence that you just, you can show up, and maybe you haven\u2019t even looked at the notes yet and you can just dive in and you know you\u2019re going to nail it? Because I feel like for me, I may lack that confidence or question whether or not I can show up and deliver on the spot. Maybe I need three hours to really think about it and let it sit. Or do you just kind of do it and it always works out?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> I\u2019ll tell you something as where do I get the confidence. I, let\u2019s say I have a crisis of confidence almost before every single client.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> That makes me feel better.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Whether … I mean if their stuff is really terrible, I know I can make a difference very easily. But if their stuff is mediocre to really good I get a little freaked out and I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat if I can\u2019t make it any better than what they have,\u201d or, \u201cWhat if I don\u2019t come up with any ideas,\u201d or … I have all kinds of doubts like that. But once we jump in there\u2019s almost always something that we come up with together and that makes them really happy. No one has ever said like, \u201cThat didn\u2019t work for me. Can we do a redo,\u201d or, \u201cCan I have my money back?\u201d There have been a couple of times where like by midway through they\u2019re like, \u201cYeah, I don\u2019t know. I guess \u2026 I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m wondering how we can use this hour. I\u2019d really, just, I really need a great tag line,\u201d or something, where you can feel them having doubts about what they\u2019ve spent. But almost always then the ideas start kicking in and sometimes how by the end we\u2019ve got something great.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> It seems like a really collaborative process though.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot of back and forth between you and your clients.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> A lot. I mean there\u2019s sometimes where after a little bit they\u2019ll buy a whole package, like the six hour package and we\u2019ll work together for an hour or two and then I\u2019ll say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve got it. From here I can write the rest of this stuff for you and just hand it to you.\u201d But usually I come up with the best stuff even if they\u2019re not doing much by hearing their feedback and saying, \u201cOh yeah, that\u2019s exact \u2026 I love that line.\u201d Or, \u201cThat\u2019s how I would say it.\u201d I really like that constant input of them reacting and saying, \u201cOh, I love that,\u201d or \u201cHmm, I don\u2019t think I would say that word.\u201d<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Interesting. So that\u2019s how you do the power hour. We actually noted in our Facebook group that we\u2019re going to be talking to you today and somebody said, \u201cHey, ask how she makes the daily thing work,\u201d where you\u2019re doing one web page for $4,000. I think people were just surprised. That seems like a really big amount for a single page. How do you sell that to people?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean some people do get sticker shock because there are great copywriters out there with packages for way less, like I\u2019ll do your whole site for $2,000 or $1,000. I mean usually once somebody works with me, and I encourage them to work with me for a power hour, or if it\u2019s somebody who\u2019s like, \u201cHey, can we have a conversation about how we might work together?\u201d I usually charge for that, like buy a half hour and we\u2019ll also come up with some copy for you. But I don\u2019t really like to waste my time having those conversations for free. I prefer that they invest.<\/p>\nOnce they do they usually want more. They see how much we get done. They see how long it takes to write something good, especially if we\u2019re doing a power hour. They see like, \u201cOh okay.\u201d It\u2019s not like I\u2019m super slow. They see that it takes time to write something really high quality and to come up with the exact right words and then they\u2019re willing to spend more to have more of that and to get the whole page done. But I\u2019ve raised my prices pretty gradually over time.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Well, I was just going to ask you, I think for other copywriters, especially new copywriters, we look at you and we\u2019re like, \u201cThis is amazing, and this is where we could go potentially,\u201d if you do the work, and I think it\u2019s inspiring. But I imagine, like you said, you didn\u2019t start out charging that amount. So how, what was the path for you as far as rising rates to you? Just was it a gut feeling? Did you kind of plan it out like every year you raise rates? What was that path like?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>I did not plan it out. It is pretty much about how booked I am, like how frequently the booking requests are coming in, whether people are sort of fighting for my time. So if the demand is high and I\u2019m starting to feel like I should be charging more, like I\u2019ve gotten faster or better or I\u2019m getting higher quality clients who are making way more money, getting way more ROI from the work that we\u2019re doing, that\u2019s when I raise my rates. I\u2019d say I haven\u2019t raised them every year. I raise them maybe every one and a half years, sometimes every two years.<\/p>\nI did have a point last year where I raised my rates because it was a situation like that. I was super booked and I was getting, I was starting to feel a little cocky. I was like, I\u2019m just, I\u2019m remembering now like this friend of my friend when I was sleeping over in seventh grade, or seventh or eighth grade and her friend was there too. She was like lying on the floor. Oh, guess who likes me now. And annoying me so much. But I was getting a little bit like that at some point last year, like, \u201cUgh, guess who wants to work with me now,\u201d and I raised my rates, and I had a little bit of a freak out in December.<\/p>\n
I haven\u2019t talked about this. I\u2019ll probably blog about it, but last, a year ago, last December, suddenly nobody booked me. It was the whole month. It was like, I kept checking my forms in the back end, I kept sending them to myself, test forms. I\u2019m like, \u201cNope, it\u2019s coming through.\u201d Nothing was happening. I don\u2019t know whether that was because I raised my rates and people were mad, or it was just a fluke, or I hadn\u2019t been blogging enough, but I\u2019d been blogging a bit. This year everything was fine. I still don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s that people got used to my rates or it was just a fluke last December and my pool of clients like just dropped off and were busy with other things. There can be scary moments when you raise your rates. It\u2019s not always that everybody is thrilled. Yeah, so it\u2019s a risk.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> Interesting. I mean obviously raising rates is one of those things that every writer wants to do, but the fear that, \u201cWell, is this the last client I\u2019m ever going to work with, because I went from, you know, 150 an hour to 250 an hour.\u201d That\u2019s a really big jump at least percentage wise. Yeah, I can see that as being sort of not only scary but hard to do it from a practical standpoint.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Yeah. On the other hand, if you\u2019re good and you know you\u2019re good and people are loving the stuff that you do and you have great testimonials and great work to show, there will always be people willing to pay for great writing or there are always people willing to pay for a website that\u2019s amazing, or a sales page that brings in money. They\u2019re always willing, people are willing to pay for that, especially if they are making good return on those things. Or they consider those a luxury worth paying for. Even if they don\u2019t have a blooming business and don\u2019t even need to and they\u2019ve got the money. Sometimes they\u2019re willing to pay for it. Just out a sort of point of pride. Like look at my amazing website.<\/p>\nKira: <\/strong>We interrupt this interview for a very special announcement.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> The Copywriter Club<\/em> has our first sponsor. It\u2019s Airstory. Before we get into what Airstory does for writers, we just wanted to share that this is actually a sponsorship we went after. We actually approached Airstory because we like the tool so much and said, \u201cHey, would you guys like to sponsor the show,\u201d and we were thrilled when Joanna said yes, that they would like to. Kira, you\u2019ve played around a little bit with the tool. How would you use it as you create the sales pages that you work on?<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Recently I used it with a fellow copywriter. We were working on a sales page together. It\u2019s a great tool to use with team members, fellow collaborators. You\u2019re able to kind of piece the cards together with different sections of copy. Maybe you have a card for objections, or for pain points, for key benefits, and you can kind of piece it together and create a sales page in an easy to use environment with a collaborator. It beats kind of jumping into Google Docs. My Google Docs usually look like a disaster by the time I\u2019m done with them and I have a hard time keeping track of all the content I need. So Airstory has been a great way to stay organized which is a challenge for me at times.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Airstory has this beautiful interface. It works really well. It connects with Slack and Evernote, Typeform, even Gmail. If you want to learn more about Airstory, go to airstory.co\/club to join and start your first project.<\/p>\nIn your experience, you\u2019ve been at this for a little while, and obviously you\u2019re seeing writers that aren\u2019t progressing the same way that you are. What do you think they\u2019re doing wrong? What are the mistakes they\u2019re making?<\/p>\n
Laura:<\/strong> Interesting. I think that maybe they\u2019re following the rules a little too much, just following what everybody, what the crowd is doing, so writing the same old posts about like, I don\u2019t know, what\u2019s a typical copywriting tip?<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>Seven headlines that always get a response or …<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Exactly. Yep, exactly. I think that they might be doing too much of that and it doesn\u2019t set them apart. It\u2019s possible they\u2019re not using testimonials to the best effect. I think testimonials are a big deal and my business for sure grew and I was able to raise my rates one … I didn\u2019t use to have any testimonials on my site. I think I had a little, like one of those sidebar widgets that rotates the testimonials and that was it. When I redesigned I put big ones across my site.<\/p>\nI think people sometimes don\u2019t get the best testimonials, copywriters included. I\u2019ve seen a lot of testimonials that say, for instance if it were for me, like, \u201cI just got off the phone with Laura Belgray. Working with her was a dream. We had the best time. I feel confident and excited to see what happens with my copy.\u201d Rather than, \u201cSince working with Laura Belgray my conversions have gone up, X% people comment on my website all the time and say they must work with me and they\u2019ve been hiring me even to do keynotes.\u201d That\u2019s the kind of testimonials that you want, something with real results.<\/p>\n
I think another mistake is copying what other people are doing. Everyone seems to have the same copy and the same style these days. There are a bunch of copywriters who do the sassy like, \u201cHey, girl hey\u201d kind of topic. \u201cHey gorgeous, don\u2019t let them bitches get you down,\u201d or like, \u201cDear beautiful soul goddess. You have wonderful gifts to share. Your value is incredible. You\u2019re brilliant at what you do but nobody knows about it. And do you feel,\u201d bla, bla, bla. Like they do such army issue kind of stuff and I think everyone\u2019s looking at each other\u2019s papers too much.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019m just wondering Laura how you stay on top of your game. Like as far as business and copywriting, there are numerous courses you can take, or do any masterminds, or whatever. How do you do it in your business so that you know you have your edge?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>For me the more clients I work with, the better I am, the more different kinds of clients and all that. I do, I do take courses now and then. I like to see how different people are teaching. I like to see what other people are recommending. I\u2019ve taken a bunch of sales page writing courses because everyone has their different way of putting it together and that\u2019s been interesting.<\/p>\nI would say I could do a lot more to stay on top of my game, like learn the art of Facebook ads. There are a lot of people out there who manage Facebook ads and say, \u201cI\u2019ll do your Facebook ads for you,\u201d but they\u2019re not great copywriters. I think if more copywriters knew really how those things worked, that would be a great thing to offer. I just haven\u2019t had the time, but if I were really staying on top of my game I would do that. So learning, just staying on top of what people are doing to bring in leads. But really it\u2019s just practice. For me, staying on top of my game means creating more, writing more blog posts, being more productive and prolific, and always putting stuff out there to market myself. Because there have been times like that, that dry spell last December.<\/p>\n
Then there\u2019s one time that I promoted B-School. It was like several years ago, but I got, I as an affiliate I got one sign up. I put out a ton of emails and got one sign up. The connection between those two things, these are times when I had been cocky and sort of resting on my laurels and not putting out a lot of material, not a lot of product. You got to remember. You\u2019ve always got to be marketing, even when things are busy, even when you feel like you\u2019ve got as much work as you can handle. It is really important to keep in touch with your list and not ghost them. I mean, because there were times when I ghosted my list and that\u2019s what led to my one sign up for B-School because I started hitting them with all these, all these B-School emails and they\u2019re like, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to be kidding me. You don\u2019t talk to us for all this time and you\u2019re like, \u2018Hey, want to buy this?\u2019 No.\u201d So I got tons of unsubscribes and no sign ups. You have to keep in touch with people.<\/p>\n
That does not mean that if you\u2019ve fallen off that you should come back with a, \u201cSorry, I\u2019ve been gone,\u201d email. A pay post, I think they\u2019re so dumb. It\u2019s not that everyone notices you\u2019ve been gone. They really don\u2019t until you point it out. It is okay to slide back in. Just slide back in, be like, \u201cHey.\u201d It\u2019s like you left the party for three hours. You can come back in. Don\u2019t be like, \u201cHey, sorry everybody, I had to go home and feed my cat and I had a quick Tinder date.\u201d You just slide back in.<\/p>\n
Kira: <\/strong>What if you\u2019ve never emailed your list? Do you just kind of just start not say anything about it? Do you just…<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>Kira is asking for a friend here. This is \u2026<\/p>\nKira: <\/strong>I\u2019m asking for a friend named Kira.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Never emailed your list. Then I think you might make a joke of it. Let me remind you who I am. You may have to do that and say, like, \u201cHere\u2019s why you shouldn\u2019t go away,\u201d so like, \u201cHere\u2019s why you shouldn\u2019t click unsubscribe. I\u2019m actually here.\u201d Create a bunch of posts so you know it\u2019s not going to happen again and say, \u201cHere\u2019s what I\u2019ve got coming up for you, if you stick around.\u201d<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> It\u2019s good advice.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Yeah. I think that you should do that. I\u2019ve had the same freebie up with my Five Secrets to Non-Sucky Copy, since 2009 I think or 2010. Six years one opt-in. Just recently I created a new opt-in, a tackle your tag line cheat sheet, which people were really excited about. I\u2019m going to make this lead magnet, so I created an auto sequence, an autoresponder sequence for it, which I had never done for the first one. All, my entire list was made up from the first opt-in. I\u2019d never sent them an autoresponder sequence. The tackle your tag line sequence, like the people subscribed to that. I got such great response from it and I feel like they\u2019re true fans now.<\/p>\nLike I\u2019m such a dummy. Why didn\u2019t I do that for the first thing. I\u2019ve pretty much, I just created a kind of a replica sequence but with adjustments for the other opt-in, and now people who are signing up for it, for my original one, are getting added to that funnel and I feel so good about it. It really helps to have a sequence set up for your new people. You don\u2019t even have to worry about it. You don\u2019t have to worry, \u201cOh they signed up and they\u2019ve never heard from me.\u201d They\u2019ve signed up and they\u2019ve heard from me like five or so times and so now you know they\u2019re in there and they know who you are.<\/p>\n
Rob: <\/strong>One of the things I think you do really well Laura is, you stand out, you\u2019re different, you use different language than most people. Everybody has a course, or everybody has a a blog, everybody has their sequences. One thing you do that I haven\u2019t seen anybody else do is, you are doing looks like what\u2019s going to be an annual trip to Italy for a writing workshop. Tell us a little bit about that and tell us are you going to allow your dad to go this year? The poor guy. I\u2019m asking for your dad.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> What guy? The ego of him. I did an Italy trip. We\u2019ll get to my dad. Last year I had a client among all the random clients I have, a client named Bianca who has a site called italianfix.com. She runs trips to Italy, Cinque Terre and Sicily. She runs little tours there and has also created a wonderful guide like an insider\u2019s guide for those places. She hired me to help her with the sales page for a workshop she was doing with another person. It was an Instagram branding workshop they were collaborating together on. When we were working on the sales page she said, \u201cWould you ever want to do a copywriting workshop kind of like this?\u201d I\u2019d be like, \u201cI don\u2019t \u2026 I just kind of like, I don\u2019t want to take care of a bunch of people and arrange a whole like their stay and they\u2019ll \u2026\u201d She went, \u201cNo, no, no. I do all that stuff. You just show up and teach.\u201d That was my dream scenario because I-<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>Yeah, sign me up.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Sign me up, perfect, and promote it to my list. I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. Are people going to come to this?\u201d Well they did. I think we were hoping like for 15 people and we got 30.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Oh wow.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> And change. So it worked out great. It was a wonderful time. We had a blast. I taught in this ancient castle at the top of Riomaggiore overlooking the sea. We had this beautiful patio. We had snacks made by a local caf\u00e9. It was just an ideal, like a beautiful time. I can\u2019t imagine anything better, like any better place to learn writing and get excited about writing than in a little seaside town in Italy as a group of white people. I am doing it again.<\/p>\nBut my father repeatedly would say to me. He would call me. He\u2019d post on Facebook. He would say, \u201cLaura,\u201d because I\u2019d made it for women only. He\u2019d say, \u201cI\u2019m hoping that you will reconsider your exclusive gender policy.\u201d \u201cWhy dad? I think it\u2019s great that it\u2019s all women and they\u2019d feel comfortable. I think it\u2019s going to be a lot of fun.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cSo that I can teach it.\u201d Like, \u201cWell dad, why, why should you teach it and not me?\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cLaura, you know that I was a freelance writer during the \u201860s, expert at creating compelling headlines and articles.\u201d \u201cNo, dad.\u201d I mean I thought he was joking at first. My mom told me he was not joking, that he kept complaining to her, that I have an [inaudible 00:34:02] teach my course.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> To your father.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> I am sure that he\u2019s going to try again this year and the answer is still no.<\/p>\nRob: <\/strong>Well maybe your dad and I can just go hang out in Cinque Terre while you guys do the workshop. We can just do some beachcombing or sit in the patio, whatever.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Rob, you don\u2019t know what you\u2019re getting into.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> I like Italy so I would have that going for me at least.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Do you like 83 year old men with a walker who …<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Sounds an awful lot like my dad.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> And are you Jewish, because if not you\u2019re in for, you\u2019ve got another thing coming, because he\u2019ll tell you are.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> I have a feeling we\u2019d get along just great.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>Oh, you\u2019re on. You can babysit my dad.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> It\u2019s good.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> It\u2019s a deal.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Laura, I want to ask you how you manage it all? Like what happens behind the scenes of the business? Do you have a team, do you have a VA? I mean, if you had a typical day, what would that look like with these projects?<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>I am a big loser. I do not. I don\u2019t have a VA. I\u2019ve never had an assistant. I have never had a team. I\u2019ve never wanted to have a team, which is a little bit limiting because everyone says, \u201cYou want to make the big seven figures, you need a team.\u201d I haven\u2019t hit that mark yet, and I would love to, but I don\u2019t want a team. I still feel. Maybe it\u2019s a little bit of magical thinking, but I do think that I can get there without a team.<\/p>\nWhat I have is one person who she\u2019s way higher level than a VA. She\u2019s the person who, Michelle Martello of Minima Designs. She\u2019s not looking for other clients so don\u2019t ask, but she is like my go to kind of tech person. I have her on retainer. She updates my site for me. Sometimes she\u2019ll create graphics. She gives me little ninja tricks to up conversions. She likes to test things. She\u2019s like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s, instead of that opt-in form that we have on your home page, let\u2019s make it just a button that they click and that pops up, makes the opt-in pop up and I think that\u2019ll increase conversions.\u201d She\u2019s just great with that geeky. She geeks out on that stuff and she\u2019s fabulous to have on a retainer. To me that\u2019s better than an assistant because I\u2019d answer my own emails anyway.<\/p>\n
I\u2019d say what happens behind the scenes on a typical day, I wake up around 9:00 or 10:00, depending on when I\u2019ve gone to bed and how I\u2019ve slept. I spend a couple hours tooling around. I go out, do my errands. I need a lot of cushion time in the morning. Clients don\u2019t start until noon. Then I just have a couple of clients a day, like one or two. Sometimes I\u2019ll have a double power hour or sometimes it\u2019s one hour. Then sometimes I\u2019ll have work for a TV client that is due, and that\u2019s a whole other arm of my business still. I get it done usually by 6:00 and then I go to my dance class or I take a walk. That\u2019s like really the whole my day.<\/p>\n
I have two days a week blocked off, Mondays and Fridays, where I almost never accept clients. They\u2019re not available on my booking form. Those days are for doing creative work like writing a blog post or for doing kind of marketing, housekeeping, catching up on emails, all the stuff that never gets done when I have clients and feel too kind of tapped out creatively. Was that a good peek inside the kimono?<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, I want to have your \u2026 I want to have that support like you have the geeky assistant or whatever you called her or referred to as. I think that\u2019s really key and smart.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Yeah, she\u2019s amazing. I\u2019ve really lucked out. I met her through \u2026 You mentioned masterminds before. I met her through Marie Forleo\u2019s mastermind that Marie was doing. I was the copy mentor for her groups after the years following my own. I was in her mastermind, the years following. I was the copy mentor. I met Michelle. She was in the 2012 group I believe.<\/p>\nI\u2019ve met amazing people through those masterminds whether being in the mastermind itself or being the copy mentor, incredible people. I think that\u2019s where you \u2026 Those masterminds are worth paying for just for the people that you meet and that you come up with in the business world. Amy Porterfield is a dear friend of mine from that mastermind, from the year that I did it, and a lot of other people that you\u2019ve probably heard of. Those, it really is, like if you get into a quality mastermind I would say, \u201cDon\u2019t worry so much. Do worry about the results you\u2019re going to get from it. But one result that is worth paying for on its own is the relationships that you make.\u201d<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, I agree. That\u2019s been my exact experience with masterminds, it\u2019s the people every bit as much as the information, more likely more so. Laura, my last question for you would be, if you could talk to Laura Belgray of just starting out, she hasn\u2019t really started writing yet, what advice would you give her?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Practically none because I\u2019m so glad. I\u2019m so glad I didn\u2019t know the rules of the business or I would\u2019ve followed them all. But I would say, like build your list, focus on your list from the very beginning, have an autoresponder sequence. Keep it for real. That is one thing I wish I\u2019d known to do, and I\u2019m so glad that Marie Forleo told me to build my list. I would never have done that. I would never have had an opt-in. I thought it was cheesy.<\/p>\nI would say do some of the things that you think are cheesy, even though they\u2019re cheesy. The things that everyone says works and that you really need to do, there will be other people who say you don\u2019t need to do anything you don\u2019t want to do. Some of them you do. You do need. You do need people to opt-in to your list. Email contact is so important. I think it\u2019s all about emails. Yeah, I would say, put your energy there. Put your energy on building the list and keeping in touch with them in a way that makes them love you and want to work with you, and do gather testim \u2026<\/p>\n
Oh, here\u2019s one thing I would tell my copywriter self. Always, and I keep forgetting this, take a screenshot of your clients. Like if your client has something up, before that you\u2019re working on, take a screenshot of the before. A lot of them will change it right on the spot and you\u2019ll say, \u201cUh, do you still have, like, can I find it in archive.org?\u201d \u201cNo, it\u2019s not there.\u201d \u201cDo you have a copy of it?\u201d \u201cNo, I don\u2019t. Unfortunately I changed all the copy.\u201d You want those befores and afters. Or it can be killer. So collect…<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Oh such a great idea, and I just took notes and circled email sequence. I think this is just the push probably a lot of us need, including my friend, to start emailing.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Oh your friend. I would love to meet.<\/p>\nKira: <\/strong>The friend, she\u2019s a mess.<\/p>\nLaura: <\/strong>I relate to her though. I understand. I really do. Oh, and on Chrome Awesome Screenshot is the app. It\u2019s great. It is great, because sometimes it\u2019s the only way to capture a whole long scrolling page.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Well Laura, thank you for hanging out with us and sharing the behind the scenes look into your business. We really appreciate it. We should ask where can we find you online?<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Please come find me at talkingshrimp.com. Explore the blog. You can contact me through there. Yeah, get in touch through the contact form just to say hi. I would love that and enjoy.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Thanks Laura. You\u2019ve been so generous with your time and advice. We really appreciate it.<\/p>\nLaura:<\/strong> Thank you. I love talking to you guys. We can do it again.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Woo-hoo.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Laura Belgray joins Kira and Rob to talk about everything from her work processes (she writes and brainstorms realtime with her clients watching via Skype) and finding confidence to what […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[9,3],"class_list":["post-337","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-laura-belgray","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n
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