{"id":398,"date":"2017-02-28T14:19:54","date_gmt":"2017-02-28T07:19:54","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=398"},"modified":"2018-01-05T05:31:33","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T22:31:33","slug":"copywriter-danny-marguiles","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-danny-marguiles\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 19: Succeeding on UpWork with Danny Marguiles"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Upwork specialist Danny Maguiles joins Kira and Rob for the 19th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>,\u00a0where they talk about how to create a six-figure freelance writing career working with clients on Upwork, Danny&#8217;s Crystal Ball technique for winning clients, and three things copywriters can do to separate themselves from all of the other writers out there. We didn&#8217;t hold back in this one\u2014we grill Danny on the truth about working on platforms like Upwork. And honestly, we were surprised by what he had to say. Don&#8217;t miss this one&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9963\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-398-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC019.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC019.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC019.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC019.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=398-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC019.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC019.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.bloomberg.com\/news\/articles\/2016-06-02\/how-to-earn-250-hour-in-the-gig-economy\">Danny Interview at\u00a0Bloomberg&#8217;s Benchmark Podcast<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/upwork.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Upwork<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/shadandjulia.com\/never-use-upwork-ever\/\">That Medium Pos<\/a>t<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/hackernoon.com\/the-post-post-upwork-debacle-b53e988b0f45#.uoi6xlgnb?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">That Medium Post, Part II<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/medium.com\/the-growth-school\/the-state-of-freelancing-a-guide-to-2017-5cfe4ad44577#.elohqhnqj?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">That Medium Post, Part III<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/freelancetowin.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Freelance to Win<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/freelancetowin.com\/ssfu-course\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Secrets of a Six Figure Upworker<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0805078045\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0805078045&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=b964846de9697ab1e9a5fc53c3702b7d\"><em>The Copywriter\u2019s Handbook<\/em> by Bob Bly<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0307956393\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0307956393&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=71ded825a37a0cac87eb2eadbf88f797\"><em>Decisive<\/em> by Dan and Chip Heath<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1591846447\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1591846447&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=bec10ccd9cefdc3f6453b61e151ef856\"><em>Start With Why<\/em> by Simon Sinek<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ted.com\/talks\/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_inspire_action?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Simon Sinek\u2019s TED Talk<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week on The Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 19, as we chat with copywriter Danny Margulies about his six figure success in Upwork, how copywriters can use job platforms to gain experience and grow their businesses, what he teaches other writers in his community and the shift from being overworked to running his own business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey, Kira and Danny.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Hey, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Thanks for being here, Danny. So, I think a good place to start is your story before you started writing for Upwork and taking clients on Upwork and you really made a name for yourself. What were you doing before that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Not much is the short answer. It\u2019s funny you should ask because people send me emails all the time and they\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh, it\u2019s so obvious you\u2019re a great copywriter and you must have all this experience and I don\u2019t have that much experience, so I can\u2019t do this.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhoa, take a step back, okay?\u201d That\u2019s like 10 assumptions too many. I\u2019ll tell you, I was on Bloomberg News talking about freelancing about maybe six months ago and after the segment, I was talking to somebody who worked there. They were like, \u201cWow, I can totally see why you are able to take this to this level.\u201d In my head, it\u2019s kind of like one of those cartoons where my head is &#8230; I got this bubbling image of me five years earlier, which is really not a very long time, picture this, sitting at my kitchen table unemployed. my wife and I both unemployed, expecting a baby. I have no college education. I have no real skills.<\/p>\n<p>The job I just quit was working for an insurance services company for 15 bucks an hour and by the way, just a spoiler for anyone listening, they really do pay you to lie. It is an awful, awful industry. All the stereotypes are true. Before that, I was working at a car dealership, another place where a lot of people get paid to lie. I made like 15 bucks an hour there. Before that I was doing telephone surveys. I would call people in the middle of dinner and say, basically, beg them for 10 minutes of their time, to take a survey.<\/p>\n<p>I had a series of really awful, non-career dead-end jobs and now I found myself &#8230; it was Friday, July 20<sup>th<\/sup> of 2012 and I was just desperate. I had maybe a months worth of bills that I could pay with the tiny amount of money in my savings account. I mean, this is all very embarrassing, but I say it for a purpose, I want people to understand. I had many disadvantages and so wherever you\u2019re at, chances are you can do this too. That was pretty much my story, is just a story of what most people would look at at that time and they would just shake their head and go, \u201cWow, that Danny, you know, he seemed like he had potential but he never really did anything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was really a dark time in my life beforehand. I really just want to give people hope. If you have anything more than I did, which is no college education, no real marketable skills, no real work experience. You can do this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Danny, what was the real catalyst for change? How did you come about to find Upwork?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. Right. So, I was sitting there that morning and I had no way to make money and we\u2019re expecting a baby. I didn\u2019t know we\u2019re expecting a baby at that time but I would find out about two weeks later. I was sitting there, just kind of desperate and I didn\u2019t want to get another crappy dead-end job and so, I didn\u2019t know what to do. I was sitting there at my kitchen table drinking coffee and just on a lark, I decided to Google, how to make money writing. Just so you understand, I had no business doing that Google search. I had no experience writing. I had never been paid to write. I didn\u2019t even know what copywriting was, not really. I certainly didn\u2019t know there was a such thing as a freelance copywriter and I certainly, definitely didn\u2019t know that I had any business doing that. It was just total long shot, total lark I Googled that.<\/p>\n<p>Then one thing led to another. I found Upwork either through that search or through a link after reading a blog post after that search or whatever. I found Upwork and I\u2019m looking at the jobs and I\u2019m like, \u201cYou know what, I don\u2019t understand what 90% of these are.\u201d Like, I didn\u2019t know what an autoresponder series was and I didn\u2019t know what even like a sales page was but there were some things on there that I was like, \u201cYou know, I think I can do that.\u201d I know what a 300 or 500 word blog post was, right? Everyone\u2019s read a blog post. I said to myself, \u201cI could write a freaking blog post.\u201d So, I was off to the races.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Danny, what worked really well for you early on, if anything did? I mean, how did you really start to gain traction as you took on those early projects?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> The first thing I did is I realized that it &#8230; It hit me early on that what clients are &#8230; There\u2019s a lot of people applying for jobs, that\u2019s the nature of jobs. Right? A friend of mine is a recruiter for a big company and he said when they post a job, they might get 400 resumes in the first 30 minutes or something like that. Everything\u2019s competitive. It occurred to me early on that clients are probably looking for something &#8230; In other words, when you apply to a job and you want to show a client, I can do this job, they probably would love to see a piece of work that\u2019s very similar to what they\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n<p>It hit me early on, that most copywriters, even if they have a lot of work that they\u2019ve done in the past, there\u2019s probably only a very small chance that they have an example of a piece of work that is virtually identical to what the client needs. Here\u2019s what I mean by that, let\u2019s say a client posts a job and says, \u201cI\u2019m looking for a blog post about the health benefits of red wine.\u201d Okay, let\u2019s be honest, I have a big portfolio now, but I don\u2019t have any articles about red wine. If I had to apply to that job, my portfolio wouldn\u2019t help me any more than a copywriter who just started a month ago. It occurred to me that what I would do, is I would go away from the job post and I would create a writing sample that was similar to what the client needed. Not identical because you don\u2019t want to tempt them to steal it from you but you want to create something similar.<\/p>\n<p>For something like the health benefits of red wine, I might go away and write an article about the health benefits of apples or something like that. Right? Something that they can\u2019t use but they can start to imagine like, \u201cOh, you know what, this guy totally gets it.\u201d I later started calling this my crystal ball technique because it\u2019s the equivalent of showing clients a crystal ball and saying look, \u201cThis is your future if you hire me. You can imagine that I will easily finish this job for you.\u201d When somebody else is &#8230; You know, you might have another copywriter with 10 times my experience but he doesn\u2019t have anything as relevant to show the client.<\/p>\n<p>What I figured out too is, it\u2019s not even wasted effort, even if you don\u2019t get the job because if you don\u2019t get the job, you take that piece that you wrote and you file that away and now you start to build a portfolio. That was the number one\u2014 again, I call this the crystal ball technique\u2014that was the number one action that spurred my career forward when I was trying to break in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s really good advice. Although, a part of me is like, \u201cWow, you\u2019re writing really two articles for every job that you\u2019re taking on.\u201d You\u2019re working really hard but at the same time, you have nothing else, if you don\u2019t have a portfolio, what else are you going to do, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Exactly and the really cool thing is &#8230; The one thing I found along the lines of what you just said, Rob, what I found is, let\u2019s say like I\u2019ll give you an example, I wrote an email about the fitness industry to try to get a job writing emails about the fitness industry. Right? It took me maybe an hour to write this piece and I didn\u2019t end up getting the job. One way to look at it is, \u201cWow, that\u2019s a wasted hour.\u201d Here\u2019s the amazing thing. I got other jobs later, using that same piece. I actually probably got over probably 5-10 jobs in the next year using that piece. It\u2019s an industry that a lot of people are looking for.<\/p>\n<p>If you stick to things that are relatively popular like health, fitness, make money online, even though that\u2019s kind of a skeezy industry, but there\u2019s still a lot of good stuff going on there, dating and relationships, personal development. As long as you\u2019re working within those kind of big demand fields, you\u2019ll probably end up with something that you will land work with at some point, even if it\u2019s not today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Danny, I\u2019m going to ask the question that probably you hear over and over and over and that is, \u201cReally, Upwork, or what was Elance?\u201d There are so many small, tiny jobs there. There\u2019s so much competition that pushes the prices down. How in the world in you succeed in building a business using Upwork and I guess, the second part of the question is, are you sort of a one of a kind guy? Is this something that every writer can do or is it just one or two writers that can succeed like this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I\u2019ll answer the second part first and then we\u2019ll go to the first part. A friend of mine, this guy named Chris, he started working on Upwork a few months back. In his first month, he took on a small job, I think he made a hundred bucks for his first job. Now, this is an experienced guy so a hundred dollar small job is not so exciting to him but at the same time, he wanted to get his foot in the door, so why not?<\/p>\n<p>His first month he made, I think maybe, I want to say $1500, which is about the same amount of money that I made in my first month. He called me up and he goes like this, he goes, \u201cDude, look, no bullshit. Do you think that you could start out on Upwork again today from nothing, from scratch, no profile and pull a hundred grand again within one to two years?\u201d I was like, \u201cWhat, really, are you kidding me? It would be easier today.\u201d There was more clients today. More people know about copywriting. The economy is better. Everything is better today than it was in 2013, the first year that I made over 100,000 there. I was like, \u201cYeah, you know, go get \u2018em.\u201d He just really needed to hear me say that.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you something, his first month, I told you he made $1500, and in his second month or &#8230; I don\u2019t know if it was his second month but it was the month after we had that conversation, he went on Upwork on earned $8800 in one month. Then the next month he earned more than that and the next month he earned more than that. He\u2019s probably going to pull six figures too and we have others too. Definitely what we found is, that I\u2019m not a unicorn. Even though when I first did this and I first started writing about it, everyone\u2019s like, \u201cOh, you know, yeah, sure, he did it but can anyone else do it?\u201d We\u2019ve seen over and over again, many more people doing very similar things.<\/p>\n<p>Now, let me answer the first part of your question. I have found a very different experience on Upwork than what some other people have found. What I\u2019ve found is, you can look at anything and you can see negative or you can see positive. For example, somebody who starts a blog or a podcast, like you guys, you could say, \u201cOh, look at Google, you know. You got nine billion search results for any search but only one lucky dude or one lucky lady gets to be on top.\u201d Right? Another way to look at it is like, \u201cHoly shit, if I work really hard, I could get to the top of Google.\u201d Right? Of course, that\u2019s what the winners do.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll tell you, I have discovered an iron clad way to kind of do like a reality distortion check when people start saying things like, \u201cOh, all the jobs on Upwork are this,\u201d or whatever. You just replace the word Upwork with the word everything or the entire world. Here, this is how it works, \u201cOh, Upwork is very competitive.\u201d Okay, replace that with the entire world is very competitive. Or, \u201cOh, on Upwork, there\u2019s a lot of small jobs.\u201d Okay, in the entire world, there\u2019s a lot of small copywriting jobs. What I found with Upwork is, it\u2019s really just a microcosm of the entire world of copywriting.<\/p>\n<p>If you go knocking door to door, just knocking on businesses doors, you\u2019ll have the same percentage who are willing to pay a lot of money in the \u201coffline\u201d world as you will on Upwork. A lot of people say like, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t want to compete on Upwork because it\u2019s too competitive.\u201d But the reality of it is, you\u2019re competing on Upwork no matter what because clients know it exists, you know what I mean? I\u2019ve found it to be a great place to work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Well, I love the way you put that. I mean, we\u2019re talking about Upwork with you but really this represents everything, the entire industry, and just getting work in general as a copywriter, is just competitive period. I really want to know what it takes to make the six figures in a year on Upwork? When I hear that, I\u2019m like, \u201cThat\u2019s cool.\u201d I\u2019m also imagining you working crazy hours in order to take on enough projects, in order to make that amount and that is probably incorrect. If you could paint the picture of what it took during that first year to hit six figures in your business. If you can share how many projects it really took and even how much you ended up charging per project, what types of projects you were taking on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. My first full time year on Upwork, I started in July of 2012, and then if you look at 2013, I think I earned about 55 or $60,000, that was basically my first year. Then in my second year, I more than doubled that and earned over 115,000. What\u2019s interesting is that I worked less hard my second year, by far, than I did in the first year because A, I was charging more, B, I had plenty of repeat clients going into the year. I still took on a good number of new clients and I\u2019ll tell you more about that but I already went into 2014 with a lot of repeat business, a lot of people banging down my door going, \u201cHey, Danny, great working with you last year. Let\u2019s do more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I always say it\u2019s kind of a three part formula. Part one, I\u2019ve already talked about is &#8230; Well, I\u2019ve talked about parts one and two. Part one is charging enough. You need to charge enough if you really want to make six figures and by the way, not everyone wants to make six figures. I get people, a lot of people who come to my site, who are like, \u201cYou know what, I just want to make a couple of thousand dollars extra every few months or a thousand extra dollars a month or whatever.\u201d So, you see a range of things.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to get to six figures, and I think six figures is a great goal, because we\u2019re in a time where let\u2019s face it, the middle class is shrinking. Obviously, 50 grand a year is fine when you\u2019re first starting. It\u2019s not something you might want to &#8230; You might not be aspiring to make that 10 years from now. Six figures\u2019 a great goal. You need to charge enough so that you\u2019re not killing yourself. There\u2019s this cycle of charging too little, I see copywriters end up in.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s how it goes, they charge let\u2019s say, I don\u2019t know, $20 an hour, $30 an hour, even 35, $40 an hour, in some cases, and they\u2019ll go like this, \u201cIn order to make six figures with this amount of money, I have to work a ton.\u201d Then they work a ton and then they\u2019re tired and they\u2019re burnt out and they don\u2019t have time to work on their skills and they don\u2019t have time to recharge and then their work suffers and then their reviews aren\u2019t that good and then they have to lower their rates. That\u2019s not what you want to do. You want make sure you\u2019re charging enough.<\/p>\n<p>For the entire year of 2014, I never charged less than $100 per hour, no exceptions. That\u2019s the first thing. You got to make sure you\u2019re charging enough, so that you\u2019re not doing what you said, which is killing yourself. Right? Anyone can make a hundred grand a year if you\u2019re willing to work 20 hours a day. We don\u2019t want you to do that and it\u2019s not going to be sustainable. So, that\u2019s number one.<\/p>\n<p>Number two, you got to &#8230; Well, we talked about this already, I touched on it a bit but you have to get repeat business. If you\u2019re spending 20 hours every week looking for clients, it\u2019s going to be very hard to hit a hundred grand a year. Repeat business is key. Fortunately for us, other than the cocaine industry, copywriting is the only industry I know of, where you can create your own demand. If you do a great job of, let\u2019s say, I hire you to write blog posts for me, for SEO or engagement or whatever. If you do an amazing job, do you think I\u2019m going to be like, \u201cOh, okay, Cool. Peace out. Here\u2019s your money\u201d? I\u2019m going to be like, \u201cHoly shit! How much more can you write? Do you have friends who can do this too?\u201d More content is better. Right?<\/p>\n<p>If you write me a great sales page and we make a lot of sales, do you think I\u2019m just going to lose your phone number? No. I\u2019m going to be like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m need to create more product so I can get this person to write more sales pages for me.\u201d By the way, what else can you write? Can you do my opt-in copy? Can you do my landing page copy? Do you do Facebook ads? You\u2019re literally creating your own demand. If you\u2019re not creating your own demand, then that means you need to brush up on your skills but maybe we\u2019ll talk about that later. That\u2019s part two. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>Part one is charge enough so you\u2019re not destroying your life. Number two is make sure you\u2019re getting that repeat business. Number three is something that I call the hidden Upwork economy. What I mean by that is this, when most people think of Upwork, they think of, \u201cI\u2019m going to go on Upwork. I\u2019m going to find these jobs that are posted publicly and I\u2019m going to apply to them.\u201d By the way, that\u2019s fine and you can make a lot of money that way but if you want to maximize your income on Upwork, what you really want is, you want to get clients to invite you to jobs because that\u2019s passive leads, right? Those come in passively.<\/p>\n<p>Clients will send me messages, I can show you screenshots, they will send me messages and they\u2019ll go, \u201cHey, Danny, I was browsing the freelancers on Upwork and I was looking for a copywriter and I stumbled upon your profile and it sounds like you are the exact person that we\u2019re looking for. We would love to hire you, are you available?\u201d Now, wow, I did no work to get that client. Right? You need to tap in that, what I call the hidden economy. Which is, you need to get those invites if you want to maximize your income. Now, we have a lot of people who are not getting a ton of invites, for whatever reason, and they\u2019re still doing very well but obviously they could be doing better if they were getting those targeted invites.<\/p>\n<p>That to me, is the kind of three part system. Did you know want to know more details like what kind of jobs I did that year, how many clients I had?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I\u2019d love to hear more about that hidden economy piece that you\u2019re talking about. I mean, that only happens when you\u2019ve built a strong profile, I assume, and have a portfolio, that kind of a thing. Tell us a little bit more about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> That\u2019s great. A lot of people actually assume what you just said. They assume that you got to built up a big history and a big portfolio, etc. Of course, it does help if you have a previous history and if you have portfolio items in your portfolio, that will help. You can do a lot of stuff to help push it along. I also want to tell you, we have one person &#8230; We did a case study on this in my course, we actually have a person who went on Upwork, created a profile, used the right keywords, really understood what her target clients were looking for and really just filled out a great profile with a great title, great overview, excellent photo, really just did everything right, right from the start.<\/p>\n<p>Then she didn\u2019t even log back in for two weeks because she got busy with other things. After two weeks she got an invite and it was targeted right at her, using her first name, and it was like, \u201cHey, we love the way your profile sounds. We\u2019d love to talk about hiring you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, if you do a lot of work, that can help but the truth is, there\u2019s so many clients on Upwork, millions and millions and millions of clients and probably thousands of new clients every day. It\u2019s really not that hard to get found, if you have a profile that really stands out. You know, your average copywriter on there, their profiles are really dull. They kind of all say the same thing. It\u2019s really not that hard to stand out, if you do a little bit of thinking about it. It\u2019s not as hard to get those invites as most people think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We interrupt this program for a message from our sponsor. As we noted at the top of the program, The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory. Recently, Kira had a chance to talk to copywriter Lisa Pierson about how she uses Airstory in her business. This is just a part of that discussion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What should other copywriters know about Airstory?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Lisa:<\/strong> Some of us are a little ADD or our minds wander and it really helps you focus. You can do all of your research ahead of time. You can add it all to cards, so it\u2019s right there in your document. You don\u2019t need to leave your document once you start writing. I love that I can do all of my research, have it in my cards, and focus on the work. My name\u2019s Lisa Pierson, I\u2019m a conversion copywriter and strategist and I love using Airstory to keep me focused and on task, when I\u2019m working on my projects.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I want to hear a little bit more about that second year. The first year, that you hit the six figures, like you said, I do want to dive into like how many projects and what type of projects were you taking in your business, to hit that mark?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Okay, great. I\u2019ll give you a few examples. I was doing some diverse stuff. What I like to do is, I like to keep things fresh. I don\u2019t like to work on the same every day, I\u2019m not that guy. I don\u2019t like to work on emails every single day. I had one client who runs a video marketing company, they make whiteboard videos. I would write the scripts for their videos. At that time, they had so many video scripts, I could\u2019ve probably just been busy full time, writing their scripts, but I didn\u2019t want to freelance like that. I didn\u2019t want to just have one big client. What I did was, I only wrote for them for several hours per week. Then I referred friends of mine, who are copywriters, to write the rest of their scripts.<\/p>\n<p>That would be a portion of my week, every week, would be spent writing a few scripts for them and we did that at a flat rate. I think I charged them at that time, I want to say it was $165 per script. The scripts were very short so it was actually a pretty decent price. I used to bang those out fairly quickly, so that was a really good deal. That was one thing. I always tell people, \u201cTry to look for clients who will be able to give you ongoing work.\u201d Right? When you have a video marketing company that\u2019s growing, well, guess what, they\u2019re going to need you more and more. So, that\u2019s a really great client to have.<\/p>\n<p>Another client that I had, he was a serial entrepreneur. He would start these web businesses. Again, you have a guy who\u2019s always going to be starting a different business and so, he\u2019s going to have a lot of work for you. For that person, he had so much work for me, that I just charged him just a flat, I think it was $130 an hour. Not a flat, I\u2019m sorry, an hourly rate, because every day he would just come up with something new. He might email me on a Tuesday and say, \u201cOh, I need four landing pages for this new thing.\u201d Or then he might on a Wednesday and be like, \u201cOh, I need three press releases,\u201d or whatever. There was no time to sit around and negotiate a flat fee for each piece. He just paid me per hour.<\/p>\n<p>I had other clients going into that year who were actually paying me less and then I had to drop those clients, which was kind of difficult, but luckily I was able to refer them to other copywriters, who were a little less experienced than me and were happy to get paid 50 bucks an hour or so. Then the rest, honestly, were just small business that I met on Upwork. People who just wanted a good copywriter. A lot of them had tried other copywriters and were kind of frustrated that they weren\u2019t getting great results.<\/p>\n<p>We could talk more about this too and it\u2019s something I talk about often but the average copywriter, even professional copywriter, is not as good as most people think. What ends up happening is, you might have a small business, they might hire a copywriter for 50 bucks an hour and they might think, \u201cWow, we\u2019re going to increase our sales by 20%. We\u2019re going to increase our opt-ins by 30%.\u201d Whatever picture they have in their head. Then most of the time, that\u2019s not going to happen.<\/p>\n<p>I really dedicated myself to, okay, how can I think like a businessperson and how can I help clients accomplish a business goal? When they met me, they were pretty relieved to find someone who really devoted themselves to the craft and really took it seriously. I didn\u2019t find it very hard to get clients who would pay the kind of money that I was charging.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Danny, I want to kind of come back to that idea, in a minute, about the average copywriter not being as good as people think, but before we leave Upwork, obviously you\u2019re telling a really rosy story about the success that can be had at Upwork but there are others who have had really negative experiences. I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve seen them. There was recently an article on Medium, it wasn\u2019t a writer but a developer, who had a run in with a client and lost his business, that kind of thing. He was complaining about Upwork raising the fees that they charge and some other things. What do you say to people who are critical of Upwork? Are they completely wrong? Are they doing something wrong? Or is there a dark side of Upwork that we still need to be aware of.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> What I found, like I said earlier, I\u2019ve just found a totally different experience on Upwork. At the same time, when people say they raised their fees, what actually happened, and a lot of people don\u2019t talk about this, they also lowered their fees at the same time. For example, they raised their fee for the first $500 that you earn from a client. If I were to hire a new copywriter today, for the first $500, he would pay more of a percentage. That is true. But after $500, he would pay the same amount as before and if he got to $10,000 or above, he would now only pay 5%.<\/p>\n<p>That day, when they raised their prices, and there were a lot of people online going, \u201cOh, they raised the fee.\u201d What you didn\u2019t see and what I did see, is all the people behind the scenes, doing high fives, because they were about to &#8230; including myself, by the way, because I have many clients on Upwork, with whom I\u2019ve reached that $10,000 threshold. Right?<\/p>\n<p>We were all doing high fives because our story, our story, our headline, was Upwork cuts their fee in half. There\u2019s multiple perspectives and different ways to look at things. If you\u2019re someone who does a lot of one off jobs, then yeah, that\u2019s going to hurt, right? My recommendation is not to be ever be the person who does a lot of one off jobs for 500 bucks, that\u2019s just not how to make good money freelancing. If my son grew up to be a freelance copywriter and he told me, \u201cDad, my business plan is to find a million clients every year on Upwork and charge each one of them $500 or less,\u201d I\u2019d be like, \u201cCan you please do something else?\u201d Right? That\u2019s not good advice.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, some people were not happy with that but to me, if you\u2019re doing what you\u2019re supposed to do, which is find clients who can give you lots of repeat business, charge them a really good hourly rate, and then you\u2019re going make more money overall. It\u2019s funny because I\u2019m also a client on Upwork now because my site, FreelanceToWin, I have freelancers helping me build that site now. I have multiple freelancers with whom I\u2019ve either reached the $10,000 threshold already, in terms of how much I\u2019ve paid them, or we\u2019re about to reach the threshold. They were high fiving each other. I did a podcast about it and I\u2019ve got so many emails, hundreds and hundreds of emails that day, from people who were like, \u201cWow, you know, I went online and I was so scared because I was reading all this negative stuff and you really helped me kind of reframe this in my head.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>By the way, the Medium post, a lot of people don\u2019t realize, that guy, as far as I know, I don\u2019t really know the whole story, but here\u2019s from my perspective, and I could have the facts not straight so check the facts for yourself if you\u2019re listening to this, but what I read is, he said he was never going to work on Upwork again. Then there was a part two and a part three to that post, where he said that he resolved his issues with Upwork and he was back on there working and he appreciated their service and helping him fix the problem.<\/p>\n<p>To me, it\u2019s just a great place to work. Like I said, you can find negative in literally anything. I\u2019m sure there\u2019s people living in Maui right who will tell you all about the negatives of living in Maui but as somebody who\u2019s in the middle of Nebraska and it\u2019s zero degrees outside, I\u2019m sure that I would love it. Similarly, I feel like, when I first found Upwork, I was like, \u201cHoly cow, this is a real thing?\u201d I still to this day wake up and I feel like, wait a minute, somebody\u2019s find out I have no college degree and they\u2019re going to delete my Upwork account.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, do I wear the rose-colored glasses for Upwork? I\u2019m sure that I do but I really just love it from the bottom of my heart. I think that for copywriters, I think it\u2019s the best opportunity out there, bar none.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s good to hear that other side of the negative story because the negative story gets out there a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You mentioned FreelanceToWin and that you are now hiring other copywriters and I want to get into that and how you manage that side of your business. I just want to connect the dots between your hitting the six figures and having your successful year in 2014 and how do you get to where you are today? What was that transition like? Usually it\u2019s like the middle ground that we don\u2019t talk about as much. How did you navigate through that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, sure. Are we talking about from my six figure year on Upwork to my FreelanceToWin business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. Taking on and hiring other copywriters to support your business. How did you get there? Did you know that you wanted to build almost an agency model? Is that what you built? Just if you could talk about that transition and then lead into where you are today. What does your business look like today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Okay, great. Okay, let\u2019s clarify. There\u2019s a few things going on here, I want to make sure we\u2019re clear. When I say that I have freelancers helping me build my business, that\u2019s my FreelanceToWin business, which is a blog and an information business when I sell my course. That\u2019s separate from my freelance copywriting business, does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yes. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> I\u2019ve never had <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">freelance copywriters<\/a> working for me in my freelancing business. I\u2019ve always just done everything myself. I mean, I did dabble in it but I just really like being the writer. When I was just freelancing full time, it was just me writing for clients and getting paid. Then what ended up happening was, in 2014, I was having a great year. I started connecting with lots of people on Upwork because what I found is I had so much work and so much interest in my work, that I needed people to refer my clients to because I was getting too many invites and too much demand. I wanted to have other good &#8230; not only copywriters by the way but designers, programmers, you name it.<\/p>\n<p>This is a good tip for copywriters who are listening, you want to have other people that you can refer clients to. Like if you have a client who says, \u201cOh, this is a great piece of copy you wrote for me. Who do you know who can help me build the landing page? You know, the hosting, put it online and get it live and do the design and email opt-ins.\u201d You want to have names where you could say, \u201cHey, I know this person who will help you build your email list,\u201d and this person will do this and this person who\u2019ll do that.<\/p>\n<p>I started reaching out on LinkedIn and other places. I started reaching out to people on Upwork just making friends. Okay? Over that time, people start asking me for advice. They\u2019d go, \u201coh, hey, Danny, I see you\u2019re doing really well. You got so many jobs. What\u2019s going on? Can you give me advice? Can you give me coaching? Can you do this? Can you do that?\u201d I was like, \u201cI really don\u2019t have time for coaching. I really just want to do freelance copywriting.\u201d I just kind of stuck to that, and I help people here and there. At the same time, I noticed articles popping up by people. They were writing about how to make money on Upwork but they hadn\u2019t really done well on Upwork. When I would read their articles, I would be like, \u201cOh, you know what, that\u2019s kind of bullshit.\u201d They were saying you should do this and they were saying you should do that. They were saying, \u201cOh, don\u2019t charge more than $30 an hour.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cWhat is &#8230;\u201d Like this is the opposite of good advice.<\/p>\n<p>I kind of held my nose for a little while and then I was like \u201cYou know what, (beep) this. I\u2019m going to start my own blog and I\u2019m just going to tell people the truth of what\u2019s going on.\u201d I started a blog, FreelanceToWin.com right? I basically just started blogging about what does it really take to make money on Upwork, it\u2019s not what most people think. The response was unreal. People start subscribing to my email list. They wanted to know more and they were reading and sharing. Then I said, okay. You know what, there was so much demand for my coaching and I just didn\u2019t want to do coaching, so I just made a course. I was like, \u201cAll right, let\u2019s compromise. I\u2019m not going to coach you one on one but I\u2019ll make a course, cool?\u201d Everyone was like, \u201cYeah, yeah. Make a course, we\u2019ll buy it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I made my course, it\u2019s called Secrets of the Six Figure Upworker, I released that to a small group of people in October of 2014. If you had said to me, \u201cWill this turn into a multi-hundred thousand dollar a year business?\u201d I would\u2019ve said, \u201cNo freaking way.\u201d This is a side project. I\u2019m doing it just as an experiment and then wouldn\u2019t you know it, this thing just took off like crazy. In 2015, I sold the course all year, it was open all year. I didn\u2019t close it. I just had it sitting there with a sales page and we did over a hundred thousand dollars in sales that year for the course. Now we just wrapped up 2016 and we\u2019ve done multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue, this last year.<\/p>\n<p>What I found is, you can only get so far in an information business if you\u2019re just working by yourself, at least in my experience. When I made a hundred thousand dollars in sales from the course, it was relatively &#8230; I don\u2019t want to say it was easy, it was a lot of work, but I did all the work myself. Then I realized, if I want to grow it bigger, I really need some help. The first person I hired is just a great guy, I hired him just to help me with Google Analytics, because I couldn\u2019t figure that out, because I\u2019m a little bit of a technophobe. One thing led to another and he just started helping me with more and more stuff. Then he started learning and we both learned together and now he does a lot of the marketing for us. Then later I hired someone to write case studies. The great thing is, I was able to hire students from my course because it was easy to connect with them. They would just present themselves to me as very talented people.<\/p>\n<p>Now, we\u2019re trying to grow the team. We just hired a marketing assistant. We\u2019re really just trying to grow and have a much bigger year in 2017. Yeah, it was a very slow transition. It really just went from side project, earning a couple extra hundred dollars a month, to this gradual &#8230; I started having to give away my clients because the business was so demanding. For a while, it was like doing half and half. Then I was doing three quarters FreelanceToWin and 25% freelancing and now I haven\u2019t had a client in months just because this business just really &#8230; There\u2019s a lot of people out there who really need our help and I want to focus on those people. There\u2019s a lot of people out there who can write a great sales page and so I feel comfortable referring my clients to other people who can do that.<\/p>\n<p>What I found is, there\u2019s not a lot of people out there who can really help freelancers earn more, make more money, especially make more money on Upwork, and just really knock it out of the park and do well. I feel really called to put all my time into helping people and we create a lot of free material too. It\u2019s not just the course. That\u2019s been really gratifying to me to just be able to help people raise their rates, do work they enjoy, and have the freedom to really control their own schedule, which is what we all started freelance copywriting to begin with for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s interesting. I was actually going to ask you if you\u2019re still taking on projects through Upwork but it sounds like you\u2019re focused on building this platform to support other freelancers build their businesses. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> At the moment, yeah. The beautiful thing is, at any time, I can go back on Upwork and take a client. For instance, about six months ago, I just felt like, \u201cYou know what, I really just want to do some freelance copywriting.\u201d I just went on there and found a client. I raised my rate to $250 an hour. The client hired me at that rate and that went really well. I feel like that\u2019s always there. I can always go back to that. I may very well go back to that. I may do that next month. I may do that next week. I may do that next year but it\u2019s great to have options.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> The question I really want to ask you because it keeps popping into my head is just, when you\u2019re on Upwork and you\u2019re doing well, what prevents you from leaving the platform and pulling those clients? Say your clients love you, you\u2019re doing well, and taking them outside of the platform to grow your business, what really keeps you within that platform, once you hit that success point and you\u2019re doing really well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Well, I mean, for one thing, it is against Upwork\u2019s terms of service to do that. They do have parameters and don\u2019t quote me on this but I think if you\u2019ve been working with a client for like two years or more, I think you can take them off. I think there\u2019s also a buyout option. There are options for doing that in an ethical and kosher way. It\u2019s not always against the rules. I just want to point that out for anyone listening.<\/p>\n<p>Honestly, the real thing is, I\u2019ve always kept my clients on Upwork just &#8230; Even if you look at the threat of getting my account deleted aside, which to me is just not worth it, why would I want my Upwork account deleted for a few bucks? The main thing is, the more you keep clients on there, the more money you\u2019re going to make because what\u2019s going to happen is, first of all, they have payment protection and all this other great stuff, but this is all stuff that you can find out on Upwork\u2019s website. What I want to give you is the behind the scenes that nobody talks about. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>When you stay on with a client, your reputation becomes better. Rob touched on this earlier. The more of a history you have, the more good reviews you\u2019ll have, the more invites you\u2019ll get. What I\u2019ve found is that, the amount of invites you get and by the way, not just the invites, but the ability to close those deals. Do you know I\u2019ve how many people I\u2019ve had come to me and say, \u201cDanny, I want to hire you right now. I\u2019m willing to pay your full fee.\u201d I would literally say to them, later I would ask them, I\u2019d be like, \u201cHey, Joe, how come I didn\u2019t even have to sell you at all? What was it about my profile that made you just want to hire me?\u201d They\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s easy. You had like 85 reviews that were all just glowing. It was so easy to understand that you\u2019re just going to be a great person work with.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I could\u2019ve shot myself in the foot by taking clients off the platform and having a shitty history but I chose to invest in my history. His is an old model. This is not a new model. Right? The same thing goes for eBay and all these other sites, you know? Yeah, you could take people off the platform, you could break the rules, but to me, you\u2019re just shooting yourself in the foot. You\u2019ll make way more money if you just stick with it than you will if you try to skirt the rules and it\u2019s just unethical too. You\u2019re not going to sleep as well at night. Honestly, I\u2019m just going to appeal to everyone\u2019s selfishness. Keep the work on Upwork because you\u2019ll do better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Danny, earlier you mentioned that the average copywriter isn\u2019t as good as you think they should be or maybe as they think they are, what did you mean by that? What does it take to become above average?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Great question. What I\u2019ve found, when you talk to most copywriters around the 50 to $65 an hour range or I would say, up to $65 an hour, even to some extent, up to $75 an hour and in some cases even more, what I\u2019ve found is when you say to them &#8230; If you say like, \u201cWhat makes you a great copywriter?\u201d They\u2019ll say like, \u201cOh, you know, I understand how to talk to an audience or how to specify my message for a particular audience,\u201d or, \u201cI understand how to focus on features versus benefits,\u201d or, \u201cI know what makes an eye catching headline.\u201d To me, I don\u2019t think that any of those things are particularly advanced these days. I think a lot of the clients who are hiring you, already have a good idea of that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>You need to have a bit more stuff in your arsenal, right? I\u2019ve seen freelance copywriters who are earning like 30, 40 grand a year, and they\u2019ll have a blog and the blog will be like, \u201cOh, let me teach you about features versus benefits.\u201d Okay, people were writing in <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/ultimate-copywriter-book-resource-list\/\">copywriting books<\/a> about features versus benefits literally like 50 years ago. Right? That\u2019s not cutting edge stuff. What I always tell people is go with cutting edge stuff, right? For example, I look for things that can\u2019t be duplicated, can\u2019t be copied.<\/p>\n<p>If I read a copy of Bob Bly\u2019s The Copywriter\u2019s Handbook &#8230; and by the way, that\u2019s a great book, everyone who\u2019s listening to this should absolutely read that but any copywriter can read that. You\u2019re not going to have an enormous advantage. It\u2019ll give you some advantage, especially over the copywriters who didn\u2019t read it and there is many but you\u2019re not going to get an enormous advantage by reading that book, right? I\u2019ll tell you what would give you an enormous advantage. Every time you see something weird or interesting or counterintuitive or funny or unexpected, write that down. I have a file called writing prompts. In that file, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of weird little things.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll just give you an example. One day I was sitting there playing Super Mario Kart with my wife and kids and I noticed that when my wife plays Super Mario Kart, she turns into like basically a wild animal. She\u2019ll do whatever it takes to win. She\u2019ll elbow you to win. I thought to myself, \u201cWow, that\u2019s weird and it\u2019s kind of funny.\u201d I wrote it down. Then later I used it in an email. Right? Nobody else will have that. If you interview a hundred copywriters and you say, \u201cOh, do you have a million writing prompts?\u201d I\u2019ll say yes, they\u2019ll all say no. That\u2019s something that you can\u2019t &#8230; not everyone\u2019s going to have. That\u2019s going to give you an enormous advantage.<\/p>\n<p>I could give you some more examples. If you, for example, if you study decision making and you read books like, you know the Heath brothers wrote a book called Decisive. Right? If you read that book, you will understand things about the human brain and how we make decisions, that the average copywriter would just not be able to talk about.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll give you one more example because I don\u2019t want to bore everyone to death but if you read the book Start With Why by Simon Sinek, or hell, don\u2019t even read the book, go and watch Simon\u2019s Ted Talk. It\u2019s 17 minutes long. That guy will teach you more about the human brain and the way we make decisions than a hundred copywriting books and you\u2019ll have an enormous advantage. You got to kind of go beyond the obvious and don\u2019t &#8230; Most people, they just stick with copywriting books. That\u2019s not really going to give you the big advantage you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Danny, before we wrap this conversation, I want to know if you could go back in time to 2013 and maybe even when you were doing that Google search and just kicking off your career as a copywriter, what advice would you give yourself?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I don\u2019t think I would say anything. I think it worked out perfectly. If there had to be one thing, I would say this, I would say, \u201cExpect there to be struggles.\u201d Okay, because this is the big thing that I see is people go, \u201cOh, you know, it\u2019s hard to find clients.\u201d Yeah, well no shit it\u2019s hard to find clients. You know what I mean? You\u2019re trying to live the dream of being a freelance copywriter. It\u2019s not going to be easy to find clients. Be comfortable with things sucking, okay?<\/p>\n<p>I guess the other thing I would say is, \u201clook for opportunities to fail.\u201d Okay? Here\u2019s what happens is, we start copywriting and we get good at let\u2019s say, writing emails. We\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s my wheelhouse. I\u2019m going to write marketing emails.\u201d Then somebody says, \u201cHey, can you write a sales page for me?\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cWow, that\u2019s out of my comfort zone. So, I might fail if I do that.\u201d Okay, fine. You might fail if you do that but you also might do really well and get to the next level. A failure in copywriting is not the end of the world. I\u2019ve had clients say to me, \u201cThis sucks. I don\u2019t want this.\u201d Okay? I\u2019ve had to navigate those waters. You learn more when you\u2019re doing that. If you make a mistake and you screw up, you\u2019ll learn 10 times more than you will by just doing what\u2019s in your comfort zone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Danny, this has been an awesome interview. Unfortunately, we\u2019re out of time but there\u2019s tons of other things we\u2019d love to talk to you about. How do you build a platform on a platform, that kind of stuff. We definitely need to have you back but until then, where would people find you online? Where would they find you and where would they find your course, in case they\u2019re interested in this kind of thing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Danny:<\/strong> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I\u2019d love to be back. It was great chatting with you guys. If people want to find me, they can contact me, they can read my blog. They can do it all through my site, which is FreelanceToWin.com. It\u2019s easy to find my course through the site too. We also have lots of free materials, so you don\u2019t need to jump into the course. We have tons of free stuff, you\u2019ll see it if you start looking on there. We have a free tools page and then the blog has tons of information. I have some copywriter specific articles as well as some other general freelancing articles. Really just lots of free stuff. If people are particularly interested in Upwork, they can sign up to my email list. I have several free sign ups. Probably the best one for copywriters to start with is, I just call it My Top Upwork Hacks. They can sign up for that right on basically any page of the site.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thank you, Danny.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Upwork specialist Danny Maguiles joins Kira and Rob for the 19th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast,\u00a0where they talk about how to create a six-figure freelance writing career working with clients [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[24,3],"class_list":["post-398","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-danny-marguiles","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 19: Succeeding on UpWork with Danny Marguiles - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Want to earn six figures by freelancing on platforms like Upwork? 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