{"id":452,"date":"2017-03-07T14:21:43","date_gmt":"2017-03-07T07:21:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=452"},"modified":"2018-01-05T05:29:42","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T22:29:42","slug":"copywriter-joel-klettke","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-joel-klettke\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 21: Starting Out But Not at the Bottom with Joel Klettke"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Joel Klettke stops by\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast <\/em>studio to chat with Kira and Rob talk about how he launched his business as a highly paid copywriter, his process (and a roadmap for a roadmapping session), testing rates, working with other writers and relentlessly chasing down referrals to bring in new business. We asked Joel if anyone can learn copywriting and accomplish what he has, he didn\u2019t sugar coat the answer (you\u2019ll have to listen to hear what he said). And while we say this about a lot of our episodes, this one truly is stellar. The advice Joel shares should be a permanent part of every copywriter\u2019s playbook. Check it out:<\/p>\n<p>Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8951\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-452-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC021.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC021.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC021.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC021.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=452-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC021.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC021.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/upwork.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Upwork<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/problogger.com\/jobs\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">ProBlogger Job Board<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.hubspot.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">HubSpot<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.insightsquared.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Insight Squared<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/businesscasualcopywriting.com\/process\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Joel\u2019s Process Page<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/brennandunn.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Brennan Dunn<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moz.com\/mozcon?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">MozCon<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.katetooncopywriter.com.au?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kate Toon<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Page<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/businesscasualcopywriting.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Business Casual Copywriting<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/casestudybuddy.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Case Study Buddy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/neilpatel.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Neil Patel<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=erORdGvgBMQ\">Joel at TedX<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/live.conversionxl.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">ConversionXL<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.distilled.net\/events\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">SearchLove<br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/Club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work process and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 21 as we chat with <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">conversion copywriter<\/a> Joel Klettke about leaving a guaranteed six figure job for the uncertainties of freelance, the power of case studies to grow a business, speaking to audiences like Conversion XL and SearchLove, and what he did to land a big client like HubSpot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey, Kira and Joel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Hey.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Hey, how\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Good, how are you doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> I\u2019m good. It\u2019s finally warm here, so I\u2019m enjoying not shivering in my boots as I try to type things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s always a good thing, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Mm-hmm (affirmative).<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So Joel, we should start off with your story, how you got to be where you are. I know there\u2019s a lot of different things that we can cover as we talk about that, but you left a very good job in the SEO world to take on a job as a freelancer, and we\u2019d love to hear more about that and how you were so successful so quickly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Sure, so the short story is that I\u2019d been working for an agency for almost five years. I\u2019d kind of just fallen into that job. I really enjoyed SEO, but I knew it wasn\u2019t what I wanted to forever. I\u2019d always loved to write, but I\u2019d never seen a business case for it. I saw the whole digital industry turning its head towards content. Content marketing, the role of copy and landing pages. I thought, \u201cOkay, well if ever there was a time to take what I feel like I\u2019m good at and turn it into a business, the time is now.\u201d I had told the company that I was working for, \u201cThis is it. I\u2019m checking out. I\u2019m going out on my own.\u201d In my head, I had kind of made up my mind to say, \u201cYeah, that\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shortly after I did that, I got an offer to go in house at quite a big firm with clients who are household names, big car companies and household brands, and it was a guaranteed six figure pay day. All of a sudden, these things that I\u2019d thought I\u2019d been so confident in kind of got thrown through a loop. Do I really want to go out on my own and be a writer? Everything I\u2019ve read about this says I\u2019m not going to make any money, I\u2019m going to struggle to have clients, but do I really want to keep doing SEO and just have the same frustrations, and problems, and challenges on a bigger scale?<\/p>\n<p>Ultimately, I wrestled with it for a couple days, and thought, \u201cNo, I was on a path, I\u2019m going to stay on that path, and I\u2019m going to bet on myself that I can create a job for myself that will pay me just as well as this would\u2019ve.\u201d That became a goal. I printed off the job offer, and I kind of tacked it up in front of my desk, and thought, \u201cOkay, this is what I said no to, so I better hustle. I better pull myself through.\u201d That\u2019s how I kind of got into it. There\u2019s more about how I landed my first clients and that kind of thing, but if I was summing up, the reason I was able to get momentum so quickly is I came at it with a business mindset, not an employee mindset. I wasn\u2019t looking to be someone else\u2019s employee, I was trying to be a consultant. I wanted to be someone people trusted.<\/p>\n<p>Instead of acting like, \u201cWell, I\u2019m new to this. I don\u2019t know it very well,\u201d I had the confidence to say, \u201cYou know what? I know I\u2019m a good writer.\u201d I\u2019d done some writing through the agency, the clients were happy with it, we\u2019d hired other freelancers whose work was garbage, and I would revamp that. I thought if those people can charge what they do and make a living as a freelancer, surely I can do the same. Instead of coming in at it from the lens of like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to charge low, and get my feet wet, and pay my dues,\u201d I just started charging high right out the gate. Nobody cared that I hadn\u2019t done this for ten years. That wasn\u2019t the question they had. All they cared about was how well could I do the job, and if I could prove I could do the job, I could get that rate. I learned that really quick.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, so I love that you said bet on yourself, and clearly there\u2019s some confidence, and the business mindset going into your business from day one. I think most of us tend to miss out on that side of it when they start up businesses. How can new copywriters take what you just talked about, the mindset and the confidence, and turn that into action to get their first few clients? It sounds like you said, number one, you can start off with higher rates, you don\u2019t have to start out with low rates. What else can they do to land those first few clients?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Sure, and I know the question in the back of people\u2019s heads is, \u201cWell, what if I don\u2019t have a portfolio? Don\u2019t I have to take jobs for cheap to get a portfolio?\u201d The answer\u2019s absolutely not. No, you don\u2019t. Again, that\u2019s the employee mindset of paying your dues and working up the ladder. That\u2019s not the case. What I did is I had a few clients that I took from the agency, I didn\u2019t take them with me, but I\u2019d done some projects agency side, but then when I was floating out there, I deliberately avoided things like Upwork, things like ProBlogger Job Board. That\u2019s not a knock on there, there\u2019s great jobs there, but it\u2019s a low cost economy. You\u2019re competing against everyone to see who\u2019s going to be the lowest to bid.<\/p>\n<p>Instead I went to connections I had that I knew they would have real clients, serious clients who needed copy, and where I could get a referral in, and there\u2019d be some trust because I was being referred. I took my little portfolio, and I went to web development shops, I went to marketing agencies, I went to consultants who already had done the hard work of cultivating these clients who had some budget, and who I knew didn\u2019t offer copy, and said, \u201cHey, why don\u2019t I charge a rate that you could get a cut, and you\u2019ll make more off the clients you already have, and you\u2019ve seen the work I can do, and we both win?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As far as if you have nothing, invent a project. Don\u2019t wait for someone to hire you for your dream job, invent one. Again, all people want to see is that you can do it, that you have the process. They want to see an example of a final deliverable. It doesn\u2019t matter if that sales letter never actually got used, it doesn\u2019t matter if that website doesn\u2019t actually exist. If you can show them the process you went through, and an example of what your copy will look like when it\u2019s done, that\u2019s enough for people to get buy-in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What else can we do, and this is for more experienced copywriters as well, to show up as a consultant verse the employee? I think that is an ongoing battle. What are some other ways we can just embody that consultant mindset?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, I think so much comes down to proving that you\u2019re not just a writer. If you want to work with big clients like a HubSpot, like an Insight Squared, it\u2019s not enough to just be good with words, you have to be able to demonstrate your process, you have to be able to communicate the value you can bring to the table. For my generation that kind of hates being on the phone, I\u2019m sad to say, but a lot of that happens on a phone call, where people aren\u2019t coming to me and saying, \u201cWe need a new website, what do you charge?\u201d It\u2019s, \u201cOkay, you think you need a new website. Let me get you in a call and talk through what I see going on on your site, talk through the opportunities that I think you\u2019re missing, ask you about your research process, ask you about what you know, what you don\u2019t know, and help the client realize, \u2018You know what? This person isn\u2019t just a writer. They\u2019re bringing strategy to the table. They\u2019re bringing things to the table that we didn\u2019t even know we needed, and now we have to have.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think a lot of it\u2019s about properly framing and communicating what are the most impactful, and I don\u2019t even think that\u2019s a word, but we can talk about it. One of the highest impact things I did was publish a process page that showed all of the stages I go through, so that people aren\u2019t looking at my deliverable as, \u201cHere\u2019s a bunch of words. I hope it works for you.\u201d They can see, \u201cHere\u2019s how this guy thinks through problems, and that\u2019s why we need him on board as opposed to that writer we hired last time who totally didn\u2019t nail it, and didn\u2019t get our voice, and didn\u2019t convert. Let\u2019s go with the guy who\u2019s shown us he can think through our problem.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joel, you\u2019ve mentioned process several times, and I\u2019m glad you brought up the process page on your website, because I remember seeing this a year and a half ago, and thinking, \u201cOh my gosh, this guy has nailed it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It\u2019s so good. So good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019m going to take it and put it on my own site.\u201d I mean, I haven\u2019t done that, but it\u2019s one of those things where I thought it is so good. Can we talk about that page a little bit, and about your process, and how you go about a project, for those who might not actually be looking at that page right now on your website?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, absolutely. I think the most critical thing I\u2019ve learned, because when I started, it wasn\u2019t as important to me and now it\u2019s become essential, is the importance of that first phase of my process, and it should be the first phase of every writer\u2019s process, and that\u2019s customer research. When I start a project, the first thing that I talk about with my client is how do we get the information, what do you already have on your customers, where are there gaps in our understanding, do we need to do some client interviews, do we need to put out a survey, do we need to have an on site survey? Where are the gaps in our understanding, before I write a word for you, because if we don\u2019t have direcytion, this is going to be a waste of your time, it\u2019s going to be a waste of my time.<\/p>\n<p>On my process page now, I kind of break it out into phases. I help the client kind of see, \u201cOkay, well here\u2019s where we start, we\u2019re going to have a polite call to see if we\u2019re a fit, get the basics out of the way.\u201d Things like budget, is this a project I even want, am I a fit? You don\u2019t want to burn hours of time only to figure out you\u2019re thinking you\u2019re going to charge five grand and this person has ten grand for the entire year in their marketing budget. Once you\u2019ve gone through a polite call, that\u2019s where you dive into a roadmapping session where you get into the nitty gritty. What are you trying to accomplish? Where are you at right now? Where are these gaps? If we were going to go ahead, what research is feasible for us to do?<\/p>\n<p>Putting that together before you get into it, so you\u2019re setting the expectation that, \u201cHey, this is not just a send me your wire frames and I\u2019m going to fart some words onto them. This is we\u2019re doing some serious research, we\u2019re going to be tackling this like we tackle a problem and not just a deliverable.\u201d After we go through that phase, we\u2019ve had our call, we\u2019ve had our roadmapping session, I\u2019ve expressed where I think there\u2019s gaps. That\u2019s the point where we get sign off, we agree on a scope, we get into it. Now the client has an understanding, they can see, okay, well I\u2019m going to get into drafts, and when I\u2019m in those drafts, it\u2019s not the case that you\u2019re going to have to tap me on the shoulder every other day to figure out where things are, we\u2019re going to set some timelines, I\u2019m going to communicate to you a running tally of when something\u2019s finished, I\u2019ll push it over.<\/p>\n<p>When it comes time to revisions, \u201cHere\u2019s how any revisions are included. If you need revisions beyond this, something\u2019s probably gone wrong, we\u2019re going to have to have a conversation, and we\u2019re going to have to sort out has the scope changed, has the direction changed, why are we here?\u201d Again, making that very clear, and then another thing that\u2019s really important is letting the client know I\u2019m not going to disappear. Once things are launched, I\u2019m going to be there looking at it, saying, \u201cHey, I think we can make a further improvement here. Hey, maybe the visual hierarchy of this can be improved on the designing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s about showing the client end to end that you\u2019re serious, that you\u2019ve thought of everything, things they haven\u2019t thought of. It\u2019s giving them an understanding of what it\u2019s going to be like to work with you before they even send you an email, so that they come in knowing. There\u2019s no questions around, \u201cUh, how is this going to go? What are our next steps?\u201d They know exactly what the next steps are, because I\u2019ve already told that to them, so they\u2019re comfortable moving forward even if we\u2019ve never worked together before.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It\u2019s just so good. Okay, how do you arrange or position the roadmapping session, and if you don\u2019t mind sharing, how much are you charging for that? It sounds like that is all happening before you even share the proposal and the pricing for the actual project. How do shape that? I know a lot of people in the club are asking about that right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, and to be honest, this is something that I still experiment with. I\u2019m still learning myself the best way to do this. It\u2019s not the case, I don\u2019t do a roadmapping session, again, before they have any idea what an engagement with me might cost. In those initial calls, we\u2019re definitely setting expectations. \u201cHey, I\u2019m more of a ten grand copywriter than your $500 copywriter. If that\u2019s not okay, let\u2019s not waste each other\u2019s time.\u201d When we get into that roadmapping session, to be honest, it\u2019s been a little different every time. Sometimes, if the relationship stands to be enormous, and the amount of work on my end to do a quick audit is not significant, it\u2019s not going to take me more than, say, a single day of my time, I\u2019ve been experimenting lately with just doing a little bit of that for free. So saying, \u201cHey, here are the key problems.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not handing them the roadmap, and saying, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d I\u2019m saying, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve dug in. Here are the things that I see I\u2019d like to discuss with you more.\u201d I\u2019m kind of seeing how that goes because I\u2019m dealing with companies where they\u2019re looking to get, it\u2019s a little bit more liquid and a little more fluid, but in the past, I would charge about $750 for that roadmapping session. It\u2019s not a one hour call, sometimes it\u2019s three hours, sometimes it\u2019s three hours with a follow up call that\u2019s another hour or two. I\u2019m charging for that time because I\u2019m putting together a strategy in that time where whether they work with me or not, they have a clear direction of where to go.<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s another thing that writers can really latch onto. Your value add isn\u2019t just, or shouldn\u2019t just, be in the words you provide, but should be in the strategy and the direction that you help set. With every engagement, I leave it so that if they decided, \u201cHey, you know what? We\u2019re going to cancel the contract after the research phase,\u201d they\u2019d still have taken away an enormous amount of value that\u2019s not just going to help them with the current project but with any messaging project down the line. The reason you should charge for those roadmapping sessions when you\u2019re looking at a client that maybe is just coming into it, they have no idea what to do, because you\u2019re providing strategic direction.<\/p>\n<p>What I said there\u2019s a little contradictory. I said you should charge for it and right now I\u2019m experimenting with doing a little bit of that for free. The reality is that this is fluid stuff and if you\u2019re already under contract by the time the first phone call ends, things are a little bit different. I would encourage new copywriters, test it out for yourself. Start offering a roadmapping session say $500 and walk them through the process, walk them through the strategy, show them where you\u2019re going to take them. It\u2019s a huge value add that especially, for even those midsize to smaller clients, $500 is not a lot of money, and it\u2019s a good way to get your foot in the door and prove your worth before you even really get going.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joel, for those copywriters that are just starting out, that you\u2019re advising to do this, let\u2019s talk through maybe just a roadmap for the roadmapping session. What do they want to cover? What should they be looking at? What should they be reflecting back to the customer? What kind of advice should they be giving? If they don\u2019t know how to do all of that, where do they go to sort of figure that out?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Right. I mean, Brennan Dunn is like the champion of roadmapping sessions. He\u2019s got some great resources on how he conducts these. Large and in part, my own processes is based on those. You\u2019re approaching it like an open discussion, but an open discussion that you\u2019ve gone and prepared for. That\u2019s part of why, again, if it\u2019s not a sure project, that\u2019s part of why you\u2019re charging for it. Before you get into that roadmapping session, you want to conducts basically a surface level audit, let\u2019s say like me you\u2019re doing conversion copy, of where you think the big gaps are, of where you think the problems are of the obvious opportunities that you see.<\/p>\n<p>That might be just as simple as saying, \u201cYou know what? Let\u2019s talk about on this roadmapping session the way you guys are pricing. What does your support logs look like when people are asking? What questions are you getting about pricing? What is your plan for the future? What are your best performing products and worst performing products?\u201d A roadmapping session is as much about you learning about the company as it is getting them to start questioning themselves, getting them to start thinking through, \u201cOh yeah, maybe we haven\u2019t thought of that, and we should talk about this more.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you can bring, in the middle of that question, if you come in, approaching like, \u201cHey, let\u2019s talk about this. Let me ask you some questions about this,\u201d and you\u2019ve already prepared based on a little pre-audit or a little bit of homework beforehand, you can say, \u201cYou know what? This is where I think we should take this with copy,\u201d or, \u201cThis is where I think copy could play a role,\u201d or just as importantly, \u201cI don\u2019t think copy can solve this problem.\u201d You can win a lot of clients for long term by telling them the problems you can\u2019t solve for them, and that\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>This road mapping session is about doing your homework upfront, spotting the obvious problems, and preparing questions for the customer about who they think their audience is, what their goals are, what they perceive the problems they\u2019re facing right now are, what\u2019s feasible in an engagement for things like research, and what might not work for them? It\u2019s as much about you getting to know them and validate the things that you\u2019ve seen in doing your homework, as is for them to start questioning, to get to know you, and for you to have an opportunity to kind of dazzle them by saying, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve already kind of thought about this, and what do you think about this angle, or what do you think about going down this road?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The end deliverable of that is you leave that saying, \u201cHere\u2019s a summary of all the stuff we\u2019ve talked about, here\u2019s the things that we agreed are problems or issues, here\u2019s some of the solutions that we said that we would like to investigate, and this is all going to inform kind of the statement of work or the proposal that I give you, because now, I\u2019m not coming to you talking about problems that I think you have, it\u2019s problems we both know you have.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Joel, you mentioned that you want potential clients to know you\u2019re not the $500 copywriter, you\u2019re the $10,000 copywriter, but I think probably a lot of people listening want to be that $10,000 copywriter or the $20,000 copywriter. I know you position your rates really well on your website, and we\u2019ll link to that page, and you mention that your projects start at $3,500. You also focus and make it really clear that it\u2019s all about the value, it\u2019s not about hourly rates, and I think you do a great job leading and kind of guiding potential clients. I guess my question for is what else do we need to be doing to become that $10,000 copywriter, especially to find those clients that are willing to pay that much?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah. To be honest, that rates page, it\u2019s one of the pages I\u2019ve experiment the most with. That $3,500 number has changed from five grand to ten grand. I\u2019ve put all kinds of numbers there. I\u2019ve experimented with all kind of ways of communicating my rates. It\u2019s not really about that specific number, it\u2019s about getting the idea in whoever\u2019s reading that\u2019s head that, \u201cHey, this guy isn\u2019t necessarily cheap, but he is going to be very good.\u201d As far as transitioning to higher projects, I think there\u2019s a multitude of things. The first thing is proving your competence. Even on your smaller projects. Again, things like showing your process.<\/p>\n<p>A huge thing for me in attracting some of my biggest clients was publishing about the way that I solved problems. I used my own blog and my own content to show people in ways that you can\u2019t do on just a sales page on your website, to show them here\u2019s how I approach a problem. I did a lot of educating, I targeted a lot of problems that I knew bigger companies or clients in general had with copy. When I just got going, a ton of my work was in guest posting. I would write for agencies, I would write for SEO tools, I would write for different publications where I knew even these bigger companies turn to for information and try to position myself as, \u201cHey, here\u2019s a guy who really knows what he\u2019s talking about.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>To be honest, a lot of it only happens over time. I said, you don\u2019t want to start out charging bargain basement prices to build a portfolio. It\u2019s not about where you set your price as it is how many relationships you cultivate over time. All of my most recent best projects, because I haven\u2019t been very active over the past year in blogging, have come from relations I\u2019ve built. With a client like HubSpot, my foot in the door there was Matt Barby who for a long time was out on his own, very, very talented marketer, went internal to HubSpot, saw they had a need, and because I\u2019d known Matt for a long time and had been proving that I knew what I was talking about to Matt for a long time, I was the guy he turned to when he said, \u201cHey, we\u2019re looking to maybe give this a shot in a smaller capacity.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I first did a smaller project with them, and then I was brought on to help tackle the larger site. It\u2019s important to be putting out that you\u2019re competent, but it\u2019s also really important to be making connections, even with people who aren\u2019t in a position to maybe hire you for those big projects right now. I did a lot of going to conferences. MozCon, for example, was my stomping grounds. Year after year, I\u2019d go in and I\u2019d try to make a splash, not just showing up and handing out business cards like every other stooge. I\u2019d try to come up with creative ways to stand out. I ran a sticker contest one year where for a chance to win $500 if somebody took the sticker I gave them, slapped in on something, took a picture of it, and tweeted it, they were entered to win something. It was showing kind of that creativity, that innovation, and it did pretty well. It made some buzz, people at the conference went, \u201cOh, you\u2019re the sticker guy.\u201d It got people paying attention to who I was.<\/p>\n<p>I think it really comes down to constantly be looking for ways to prove your competence, even if you don\u2019t thing you\u2019re the best in the industry. I still want to be Joanna Wiebe when I grow up, but it\u2019s about putting up the-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Don\u2019t we all?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, absolutely. As you learn, as you grow, as you accumulate new skills, publish about them, publish your process, talk about the things you\u2019ve learned, talk about how you\u2019ve tackled problems for clients. Prove your competence, use what you\u2019re doing to prove your competence to build relationships, and then just continually do good work. The last thing I\u2019ll say on that is be relentless. This is something I\u2019m still learning. Be relentless about going after referrals. If you\u2019ve done good work for someone, don\u2019t be afraid to send an email saying, \u201cHey, you know what? I\u2019m booking out for the next few months. I know our project is maybe wrapped, you know that if ever we have a chance together, I\u2019m game, but hey. Do you know anyone who might be in a position?\u201d Often times, it\u2019s amazing how often people like, \u201cYou know what? Actually, yeah. These guys were just talking to me about how they\u2019re thinking about doing a redesign,\u201d and they\u2019ll float you on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We interrupt this interview for a very special announcement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> The Copywriter Club has its first sponsor. It\u2019s Airstory. Before we get into what Airstory does for writers, we just wanted to share that this is actually a sponsorship we went after. We actually approached Airstory because we like the tool so much, and said, \u201cHey, would you guys like to sponsor the show?\u201d We were thrilled when Joanna said yes, that they would like to. Kira, you\u2019ve played around a little bit with the tool, how would you use it as you create the sales pages that you work on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Recently, I used it with a fellow copywriter, and we were working on a sales page together. It\u2019s a great tool to use with team members, fellow collaborators, and you\u2019re able to piece the cards together with different sections of copy. Maybe you have a cart for objections, or for pain points, for key benefits, and you can kind of piece it together and create a sales page in an easy to use environment with a collaborator. It beats jumping into Google Docs. My Google Docs usually look like a disaster by the time I\u2019m done with them and I have a hard time keeping track of all the content I need. Airstory\u2019s been a great way to stay organized, which is a challenge for me sometimes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Airstory has this beautiful interface. It works really well, connects with Slack and Evernote, Typeform, even Gmail. If you want to learn more about Airstory, go to Airstory.co\/club to join and start your first project.<\/p>\n<p>So Joel, your approach to being a copywriter is very different, I think, than most people who think, \u201cHey, I\u2019m going to be a copywriter.\u201d You\u2019ve looked at it as a business rather than a creative pursuit. We started with your story where you said that you had this other offer, but we didn\u2019t really tell the end of that. How long did it take you to hit six figures so that you had passed that offer, that you were doing well, and where are you in your business today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, so the rough numbers. When I left my agency job, and I\u2019m only sharing this to give people perspective, because this is not me patting myself on the back and bragging, but I want to prove that it\u2019s possible.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You should brag. We want you to brag.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel: <\/strong>My agency job, when I left there, I was making around $68,000 a year. This was after putting in my time, paying my dues, having been there for almost five years. Five years in SEO is a lifetime. By that point, you are kind of in a senior role, enough to be considered for the six figure jobs. The job offer that I was given was upwards of a hundred grand. Obviously, it would have to be to be six figures. My first year in copywriting was a little bit weird, because I was still doing a little bit of SEO consulting on the side. I didn\u2019t fully transition into copy until about month three. My first year, I came close, I didn\u2019t quite make it. I made, I think, about $92,000 in my first year. I didn\u2019t quite beat my goal, and that wasn\u2019t discouraging to me. It was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m close.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>The first thing that I thought was, \u201cYou know what? Had I been billing all these projects to US clients and US dollars, I would\u2019ve probably crushed my goal with currency exchange.\u201d I got motivated by that, I came really close, I was really happy. I had almost beat my previous salary by a third, which made me quite happy. In my second year, the doors kind of blew off. By the end of my second year, I grossed over the first two years over 230,000. That second year was obviously about a $50,000 step up from the first year. I couldn\u2019t really be upset with that kind of growth.<\/p>\n<p>Where I\u2019m at now, just to close out that question, I decided to move to New Zealand for eight months, and I wound down how much work I was doing. Last year, I still broke the hundred thousand dollar mark, but it was not nearly as big a year, but it was a huge year for life. I think that\u2019s one thing. Now, my focus is how do I bring balance back into this? That 140,000 plus year was amazing, but it was also very challenging. If I\u2019m going to try to beat myself again, I\u2019m going to do it in a way that\u2019s not going to lead to burnout.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So Joel, are you a unicorn, or can anybody do this? The reason I ask is recently Kate Toon posted in our Facebook group a survey of writers in Australia and what they said that they made in annual salary. I think it was like 80% of them are below $50,000 and that\u2019s Australian dollars, which is maybe about the same as Canadian dollars, but it\u2019s shockingly low. It\u2019s less than most people would be making in a regular job. Can anybody do this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> You know, as much as I want to say yes, I\u2019m going to say no. This is why, I\u2019m not saying that to discourage people, but if you want to be the kind of writer, the kind of businessperson that brings that home, you have to be willing to learn to do more than just words, you have to be willing to learn how to operate like a business, you have to be willing to learn how to have confidence in client relationships. The reason I say that not everyone can is because everyone will say they\u2019re willing, but when it comes down to it, some people really just can\u2019t be bothered to learn that stuff. Anyone can learn this, anyone can apply this, but not everybody will.<\/p>\n<p>I want to be realistic about that in saying that this is not easy. There\u2019s no two step system. It\u2019s a total mindset shift away from acting like an employee to building like a business. Some of the keys that really helped me reach that mark is I started to focus. I started to focus on the kinds of projects, when I started out I was doing mostly blogging. I then started specializing just blogging about digital marketing. From there, I kind of awoke to the idea of conversion copywriting, and I shifted my focus there, but I still had all these blogging clients, so what am I going to do? Just cut them loose? No. I decided, \u201cOkay, well, the first key was specializing. Second is subcontracting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re getting good projects, I\u2019d you can find good people, if you can build a process around how you share the work to make sure that the quality is there, there\u2019s no way I would\u2019ve hit that number had I not brought on board Steven Peters, who does all of the blog work for Business Casual Copywriting now. I subcontracted 100% of that to him. I tried other approaches. I tried subcontracting to ten different people, and it blew up in my face extremely quickly, but subcontracting helped me make money when I wasn\u2019t working, and I could still pay Steven a really great rate, because I\u2019d sort of proven myself through building my own competence, and now I could pass that on. If you try to be a generalist, if you try to just be a writer, it\u2019s going to be really, really hard.<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019ve all seen the rates people want to pay for blog posts. I saw something today, they wanted a 10 to 12,000 word ebook written for $500. I don\u2019t care who you are, how are you going to make a living doing that? You have to escape this idea of, \u201cI\u2019m going to look for the easy jobs on Upwork, I\u2019m going to look for the easy jobs on the job boards where everybody else is posting.\u201d Instead, you have to build a brand, build a business, and prove that, \u201cHey, I\u2019m not like all the people on the job boards. Those are the juniors, those are the people that are going to do your cycle work and do it for cheap. I\u2019m not going to be here when you want something; I\u2019m going to be here when you want something exceptional. I know exactly what that exceptional thing I can give you is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Basically, the way it was explained to me is like, bad copywriters ask, \u201cWhat do you need and what will you pay me for it?\u201d Good copywriters, good businesspeople say, \u201cHey, here\u2019s the level I\u2019m on, and if you want to be on it, here\u2019s what it\u2019s going to cost.\u201d It\u2019s a subtle mindset shift, but it makes all the difference in the world.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow, you\u2019re good. I\u2019m just thinking, I\u2019ve asked that question before, \u201cWhat do you need?\u201d Okay, so you mentioned subcontractors, and that\u2019s something that\u2019s been on my mind. I\u2019ve been working with different collaborators on projects and testing that model out as well. Can you talk a little bit more about what happened when you brought on the ten different subcontractors, what we need to look out for as we move in this direction, and even just how much you think you should be paying for someone like a Steven, someone you can rely on and really work with to build the business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Sure. I\u2019ll try to explain this as quickly as I can, because there\u2019s so much I could unpack here, and I want to get to as much of it as I can. When I started, I kind of did the math, and I got diamonds in my eyes about, \u201cYou know what? If I could charge $250 for a post, and then I could subcontract for 100, I could make $150.\u201d I thought, \u201cOh, the key to this is to do as much of this as quickly as I can.\u201d You\u2019re thinking, \u201cOh, I got to scale to this.\u201d I went out and I published a posting I was looking for writers, and I asked people for referrals, and I got this stable of like eight to ten people. I thought, \u201cYeah, I\u2019m set, because of course every writer in the world shares my process and standards for quality, so this is going to be simple.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It wasn\u2019t, because almost no writer, if you\u2019re a perfectionist, if you\u2019re really good at what you do, it is hard to find writers who share that commitment. You can\u2019t manufacture give a shit, and if you have a lot of it, you\u2019ve got to find someone else who does, too. What I found was work quality was inconsistent, my processes were broken, I couldn\u2019t keep track of who was doing what, I had no systems in place for allocating things and making sure deadlines got there. My writers sometimes didn\u2019t care about deadlines, because it\u2019s not their client. I burned it down. I was frustrated and I thought, \u201cMan, that did not work at all.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then I decided, \u201cI\u2019m going to try again, but I\u2019m going to do it slow and instead of assuming writers and I are going to be on the same wavelength, I\u2019m going to give it time, I\u2019m going to work with one person to teach them how I like things done, to teach them what clients expect, to teach them my process.\u201d I did that with Steven. I brought Steven on. I worked closely with him. I let him make mistakes, because when you\u2019re not trying to cover up mistakes for ten people, you can work with one, and Steven\u2019s the kind of guy, he\u2019s got the right attitude, he\u2019s got the right work ethic, where once I pointed out something once, he never made that mistake again.<\/p>\n<p>My advice to you who are thinking about subcontracting is do it slow. Don\u2019t get diamonds in your eyes. Pick one person. Be ready to have those tough conversations, because stuff is going to go wrong, mistakes are going to be made. It\u2019s not the end of the world. You\u2019re training someone. You\u2019re a business training someone. Do that slow, and now I don\u2019t even have to look at Steven\u2019s work anymore. I pass him projects, I pay him his rate, and we both do well.<\/p>\n<p>As far as what you think you should be paying, the way I\u2019ll break it down is I try to have relationships be a 60\/40 split where I\u2019m taking home 60 and over time I flip that. Once they\u2019ve earned my trust, and I know it\u2019s very hands off, and this is basically I\u2019m handing this to you and no issue, I switch it the other way around, because I believe you should reward good work and pay writers fairly. For example, when I started out sourcing my digital marketing posts, I\u2019d charge the client $500. I started off paying 150, 200. Today, that number is much different. He might take home 300, 350. My share is smaller, but I also trust him, and he\u2019s earned it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Joel, quick question about that, is Steven working with you only, or is he working with other copywriters as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> In our situation, I\u2019m the only one Steven subcontracts to. He\u2019s not an employee, he can take on other jobs, he can and has picked up jobs on his own. I\u2019m the only one he subcontracts for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Joel, I\u2019d love to switch gears here a little bit, and talk a bit about case studies. You\u2019ve created an entire business around this, and in fact, I know Kira is using your business Case Study Buddy to create a case study. Talk to us a little bit about why writers in particular ought to consider using case studies to show off their business, but also, what could we be doing better as we help our clients create case studies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Sure. I\u2019m such a hypocrite in this, because I\u2019ve built a whole business around case studies, and I have none for myself, which is going to change. The case studies are the ultimate. They are tricky in that we all think we need to have a ton of metrics, we all think we need to have a client who can measure everything down to scale, and that is great if you can get that, but a case study can just be a customer success story, an extended testimonial that talks about the problem they had and how you solved that problem, and why they liked working for you.<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t have to be, \u201cOh, we increased their lift 20%.\u201d That\u2019s interesting, that\u2019s obviously has a huge impact, but just as powerful can be detailed stories of how you solved a problem, why that person chose you, why they continued to choose you. It\u2019s proving competence, like I talked about earlier, but with the added value of third party proof, this is someone else validating, talking about from their perspective why they chose you, and why others would be stupid not to.<\/p>\n<p>How can we be better at creating case studies for our clients? I mean, I don\u2019t really want to arm the militia, and have you all come down and take down the case study, but what it comes down to, the key thing, the most important part of the process is that interview. The questions you ask, how you ask them. You have to get, in most cases, a client on the phone to really explore their story. The only time we don\u2019t get someone\u2019s client on the phone is if we only need really like one testimonial, and we\u2019re just doing a very short summary, like a point form summary style case study. That\u2019s sort of a different offer, and we can get just the intel, the nice sounding quote from a survey.<\/p>\n<p>For the big dogs, for the clients that really want to showcase their value, for example with Kira, we interviewed her client, and Kira knows interviews inside and out. She did great ones with her clients\u2019 clients, but what we\u2019ve done is we\u2019ve mastered the process of getting good insights out of clients on the call. If you\u2019re more interested in that, there\u2019s lots of posts in the Case Study Buddy blog about what our favorite questions to ask for. If you do a little digging, you can even find the templated questions that we often use going in. We obviously customize and tailor that to everyone, but that\u2019s a good place to start if you\u2019re thinking, \u201cHey, this might be an asset I want to put together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Joel knows that I am a huge fan of Case Study Buddy, and this is my first case study with Case Study Buddy, and for me, I feel really uncomfortable interviewing my own clients, even if I know we\u2019ve had a successful relationship. It makes me cringe, I don\u2019t want to do it, and I know for a fact just looking at that case study that there are questions I never would\u2019ve asked and details about that project, as far as numbers, and percentages, and conversion stats, that are so important that I just would not have gathered on my own. I think especially if you\u2019re a copywriter who is starting to land those bigger projects, you know can help you land more projects, but you know that maybe you don\u2019t want to have those conversations or you just can\u2019t package it quite right, obviously I\u2019m a huge advocate, and so I\u2019m really excited about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Thank you. I think, just quickly, one of the things, too, that\u2019s valuable, that we offer as a value and that I think copywriters can offer as a value is exactly that. When you\u2019re a third party, you can dig, you can be objective, you can put them on the spot. You\u2019re not making them uncomfortable. You can ask things, because hey, it\u2019s not your client, you\u2019re just trying to tell a great story.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right, and especially if it\u2019s an ongoing client. Even with the one that you interviewed, I want to continue working with him, so I don\u2019t want to get on a phone and grill him about the stats. It\u2019s just not the way I want to handle that relationship. I was even thinking as a copywriter, you can just add that fee, the Case Study Buddy price tag, add that to your projects, or like half of that to your projects, so it\u2019s just built into what you\u2019re charging, so every time you roll out a huge project, you know you have a case study that will be created based on that project. That\u2019s what I\u2019m going to start doing.<\/p>\n<p>Joel, I want to shift directions and talk about burnout, because you alluded to that earlier, and you mentioned this past year was a huge year for life and you worked out of New Zealand. I want to know the catalyst for that. What was happening? What was the burnout like? What was your experience like working abroad? Burnout is huge for so many of us. We\u2019re dealing with it. How did you tackle that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean, I think the way that I wound up burned out is, it\u2019s kind of like the saying, when you\u2019re a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I got so wrapped up in the game of how much can I make, and how much can I grow, and honestly, I think everybody, we\u2019re lying if we say we don\u2019t want to make as much as possible and be well known. We all want that. I think it\u2019s easy to get wrapped up in that, though. For me, I was working late and long to deliver on projects, I was taking on projects that paid well but weren\u2019t necessarily the clients or people I wanted to work with ongoing. I was putting myself through the ringer, because it\u2019s never going to be enough.<\/p>\n<p>When you hit the six figure plateau, you look up, and you see someone\u2019s at the $250,000, and once you hit that, you look and some does half a million and a million. I can tell you right now, that never ends. That rat race never ends. I got really caught in the thick of that, and finally thought, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019ve made money, but I haven\u2019t really spent time where I wanted to, I haven\u2019t really invested this money in experiences that will be memorable.\u201d My wife and I had talked for years, almost since we started dating, about how cool it would be if we lived somewhere else. New Zealand is a country that we have kind of a mutual history with, so kind of near as I was realizing, \u201cI\u2019m tired. I\u2019m not enjoying this as much, and this isn\u2019t really what I want my job and my life to look like.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>As we were kind of realizing that, we started making plans. It\u2019s like, \u201cYou know what? Now\u2019s a good time. We\u2019ve had a big year, we\u2019ve put in the work, and now let\u2019s enjoy it. Let\u2019s kind of retire while we\u2019re young, do a practice retirement.\u201d That became, it was like, \u201cLet\u2019s enjoy this. Let\u2019s go over and do it.\u201d I still worked while I was over there, I still picked up projects, but I wound things down quite a bit. It was a fantastic lesson in just breathing and not worrying so much about the rat race, or whether or not I was outpacing my peers, or who had launched a more successful thing. I was able to just be, and to enjoy, and to do something I had dreamed of doing.<\/p>\n<p>I think it\u2019s important not to get so caught up in the idea of building the dream that you never actually step back and enjoy the day to day. That\u2019s something that I brought back with me now, that I\u2019m still seeking balance in and trying to find how do I structure my time, how do I structure my business so that, yeah, I\u2019m willing, I\u2019m ready to work hard, I expect to work hard, I\u2019m not going to be on a beach anytime soon making the mythical passive income, but I\u2019m also not going to be working until nine o\u2019clock at night on landing pages for clients that really don\u2019t need landing pages at nine o\u2019clock at night.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Right. Joel, I love that advice. I think before you left for New Zealand, I shared with you that I did the same thing with my family. We went to Europe for half of the year. For those writers who can get away, they don\u2019t have a spouse that\u2019s locked into another type of job or whatever, I highly recommend it, because it really does change your focus from work, work, work to hey, there\u2019s a world out there that is worth experiencing and we should all do that before we turn 65, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Absolutely, yeah, and the thing is you don\u2019t need a lot of money to do it. You really don\u2019t. If you live frugal, if you save, if you\u2019re smart about sharing accommodations and not trying to ball out and do absolutely the Ritz, and put yourself up in the penthouse, and be the Neil Patels of the world who publish about how they spend $12,000 on buttons in a month, and what did that do for my business. That\u2019s not real life. I would say confidently that if you can make 50,000 in a year and save 10 to 15 grand, you can go away for two to three months, and work through that two to three months or more, and not have your life implode on you. It is very doable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, so we\u2019re going to run out of time here soon, but I want to ask you about some of the speaking events that you have done. You\u2019ve spoken at TedX, you\u2019ve spoken at ConversionXL, by the time this podcast airs, you will have spoken at SearchLove. How did you connect into those kind of opportunities, and how has it affected your business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> In every circumstance so far, it\u2019s been somebody going to bat for me. There\u2019s a lot of paths to speaking. I had done some public speaking in university, I had done online some things like webinars before I was invited to come out and speak at events. One of the most important things you can do is prove you are a good verbal communicator. I haven\u2019t spoken there yet, but when people like MozCon or people like these bigger conferences are considering who to put up there, they need to know you can get up there and not wither under the spotlight. Doing things like webinars, shooting your own videos, it doesn\u2019t matter the quality even. Just proving you\u2019re a good, confident speaker is the start of it, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Also, proving, like I talked about earlier again, putting out the world, \u201cHey, I\u2019m proving my competence. I\u2019m talking about what I\u2019m doing. I\u2019m proving I know my stuff.\u201d For me, in all cases, with ConversionXL, it was Joanna going to bat for me and Shanelle inside of ConversionXL kind of confirming that. With SearchLove, Ed Fry, who was at ConversionXL, went back to Distilled and said, \u201cHey, I saw this guy, he\u2019s really interested in speaking. Do we think we have room for them?\u201d Because I had been working in the background to establish that yeah, I know what I\u2019m talking about, and prove yeah, I can get on a stage and not embarrass myself for you, that opened some doors.<\/p>\n<p>It really does come down to, again, networking. I would encourage people, go to the conferences you want to speak at. Get to know people, and show up, be visible, be familiar. That could open a door later on when they go, \u201cYeah, this person already knows our format, and our content, and our audience, and they\u2019ve been publishing, and they look good on video. Let\u2019s get them shot.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s awesome. This interview has been fantastic. As I\u2019m thinking about the things that we\u2019ve covered, there\u2019s so many different things that you\u2019ve done in your business, Joel, that over the last year and a half, I keep thinking, \u201cOh, yeah. I need to do that better.\u201d So much of this is just a great reminder that there are very particular things you can do to be professional about the copywriting business. I want to thank you for sharing that with us and with our audience. If people want to follow up with you, connect with you in some other ways, where would they go to find you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> The best place is Twitter. Just @JoelKlette. You can also reach me through my website, Business Casual Copywriting. If you want to investigate case studies, CaseStudyBuddy.com, publish there, do some things there as well. I think the last thing I want to say, because it\u2019s easy to come on these things and be like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019ve got this figured out,\u201d but I want people to know that I\u2019m still figuring this all out. I\u2019m still trying to find balance, and process, and how do I do this better. If you\u2019re just starting out, or even if you\u2019re in the middle, you\u2019re feeling discouraged, don\u2019t feel like people who look like they have it all together have it all together because nobody\u2019s really like that and this is just a learning game. We\u2019re all just learning and trying to get better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Thanks, Joel. That was great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Joel:<\/strong> Yeah, thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thank you, Joel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Joel Klettke stops by\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast studio to chat with Kira and Rob talk about how he launched his business as a highly paid copywriter, his process (and a [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[26,3],"class_list":["post-452","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-joel-klettke","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 21: Starting Out But Not at the Bottom with Joel Klettke - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Conversion copywriter Joel Klettke talks about his processes, whether anyone can be a six-figure copywriter, and how to create a killer case study. &gt;&gt;&gt;\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-joel-klettke\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast 21: Starting Out But Not at the Bottom with Joel Klettke - 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