{"id":4853,"date":"2023-12-26T07:14:35","date_gmt":"2023-12-26T00:14:35","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=4853"},"modified":"2023-12-22T03:02:22","modified_gmt":"2023-12-21T20:02:22","slug":"status-quo-risky-seth-godin","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/status-quo-risky-seth-godin\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #375: The Status Quo is Risky with Seth Godin"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>For the 375th episode of <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, we brought back Seth Godin. But maybe not quite the way you think. We talked to Seth more than five years ago about creating art, freelancing, and the story you create for yourself. It&#8217;s such a great discussion, but because it happened so long ago, not very many listeners find it. So for our very first throwback episode, we&#8217;ve pulled this great interview out of the vault and are sharing it again&#8230; with a few new thoughts at the end. Even if you heard this interview the first time we ran it, it&#8217;s worth another listen.<\/p>\n<p>Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_4397\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-4853-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC_375SG.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC_375SG.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC_375SG.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC_375SG.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=4853-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC_375SG.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC_375SG.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>Stuff to check out:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/This-Marketing-Cant-Until-Learn-ebook\/dp\/B07DBR1V9S\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=21RBWLLJV8VJ7&amp;amp;keywords=this+is+marketing+seth+godin&amp;amp;qid=1703187165&amp;amp;sprefix=this+is+marketing%252Caps%252C143&amp;amp;sr=8-1&amp;_encoding=UTF8&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;linkId=bad0ea7043719d44d0a4ad06c2c16b38&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325\"><em>This is Marketing<\/em><\/a> by Seth Godin<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriteraccelerator.com\"><em>The Copywriter Accelerator<\/em><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> A little over 5 years ago, as we were approaching our 100th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and I were trying to think of who would be an amazing guest for the 100th episode of the show. There are some amazing\u2014even famous\u2014copywriters who came to mind. It\u2019s too bad David Ogilvy wasn\u2019t alive. He definitely would have made the cut.<\/p>\n<p>But this show is about more than copywriting. It\u2019s about marketing and showing up and making a difference in the world. And when we added those considerations to the list, one obvious choice stood out.<\/p>\n<p>Seth Godin.<\/p>\n<p>You know Seth. He\u2019s been a vocal advocate for making art or as Steve Jobs once said, making a dent in the universe. Much of Seth\u2019s career, certainly for the last decade, has been about encouraging people to make their art.<\/p>\n<p>So I reached out to Seth and asked him if he would be our 100th guest. And I think it was about 20 minutes later, I got a reply back. I still have it, in fact, let me just read what he said\u2026 he wrote\u2026 I can happily do this, but my publisher asked me to not have any new podcast interviews until November. Can we record it soon, but have it come out then?<\/p>\n<p>That timing meant that Seth wouldn\u2019t be our 100th guest, but we weren\u2019t about to say no. And in fact, I think the timing actually worked in our favor. As you can imagine, Seth appeared on many podcasts around the same time ours went live\u2014all to promote his new book. But because we recorded 5 months earlier, we didn\u2019t have the book, so our interview was very different from all the others that went live at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s been 5 years since we recorded this interview with Seth, but I have to tell you I go back and listen to it more than any other episode. Seth\u2019s advice on making art, owning the work we do, doing the difficult emotional work, building spec projects, and what happens when we don\u2019t do those things is even more important today than if was when we recorded this interview more than 5 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Now\u2026 this is where I would usually mention the copywriter underground. I\u2019m not going to do that today because we wanted to give you something as a thank you for being a regular listener to the show. Just after the new year, we launch the copywriter accelerator. It\u2019s not a course. It\u2019s an 8 part business building program designed to help you build a six-figure business that works for you. I\u2019m not going to tell you all the things it includes here. You can find that out at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. But I will share an exclusive code only available to you as a podcast listener. This is the only place we\u2019re sharing it. If you go to the copywriter <a href=\"http:\/\/accelerator.com\"><span>accelerator.com<\/span><\/a> and enter the code: POD200, you\u2019ll save $200 off the price of the program. That\u2019s POD200 at the copywriter accelerator .com. And you can find far more details about what the program includes there. Check it out. And if it\u2019s a fit, join with the code: POD200.<\/p>\n<p>Okay, now we hope you enjoy this incredible interview with Seth Godin.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Seth, welcome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0Hey, Seth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thanks. Great to talk to you guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0We\u2019re very excited and honored that you\u2019re a part of our show. Before we start recording, we just shared with you that you\u2019ve been such a big influence in our careers and also in creating <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em>. So my palms are sweaty and I am thrilled that you\u2019re here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> All right. Well, I\u2019ll do my best. That\u2019s a pretty high expectation, but we\u2019ll see what happens.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0You\u2019re going to deliver. We feel good about this, so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0So, to kick this off, you talk about becoming a category of one on your own podcast, and you mentioned doing quirky work. That really stood out to me. What does that mean and how can freelancers do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, there\u2019s two kinds of freelancers. There are freelancers who seek to have a job without a boss, that\u2019s most freelancers. And then there\u2019s freelancers who actually make a living, make an impact, bend the curve. It\u2019s fun to talk about being the second kind, but there\u2019s a cost to it. I think distinguishing between the two is really important. More than ever because there are laptops, because there\u2019s an internet. More than ever people feel like they can make a living on their own in the world. That plenty of people who are professional copywriters used to be on the client side and then they go, \u2018Whoa, I just paid that person a thousand dollars if I only did that 60 times a year, I could make a living.\u2019 And so off they go.<\/p>\n<p>Their motto is \u2018You can hire anyone and I\u2019m anyone.\u2019 The problem with that motto is it\u2019s based on a mindset of scarcity. A scarcity of information, a scarcity of choice, the scarcity that comes from geography. And in my little town, there\u2019s only one florist. So yeah, if you want flowers you have to buy it from the florist, but it\u2019s not true for copywriters. There\u2019s no scarcity. The alternative is to do the scary work of intentionally not being in the middle, intentionally not saying to the client, \u2018What would you like? I\u2019m happy to do it for you.\u2019 Because if that\u2019s your approach, then they\u2019ll just find someone cheaper than you. Whereas the alternative is, \u2018No, this is my work. This is how I do my work. I\u2019m the one and only at this work and if you want this work, that\u2019s what you get from me.\u2019 That\u2019s different. It\u2019s a whole different way of being in the marketplace.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 Can we talk a little bit about that other kind of freelancer too? Because I think it\u2019s really important to realize that when we\u2019re that kind of freelancer that doesn\u2019t want a boss, a lot of times we actually end up creating a job with the worst boss of all, and that is ourselves.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Exactly. That most freelancers have an enemy inside and this is the person who not only relentlessly criticizes them, their work ethic, their approach, their quality of their work, but then when it\u2019s time to do the difficult emotional labor of building a career, it says, \u2018Nah, we worked really hard today. Let\u2019s just go out for drinks.\u2019 So on one hand, the boss is pushing you too hard and bringing shame along, and on the other hand, the boss isn\u2019t pushing you hard enough and making it easy to hide.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> So, how do we make ourselves then that second kind of freelancer? What are the things that we need to do, really step into that role?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, I think it begins by acknowledging that you\u2019re not very good at what you do right now. You\u2019re at the 80% level. That there are plenty of people who do what you do, and many of them are faster and cheaper and more experienced than you. That\u2019s just sheer math. It\u2019s gotta be true. So, when I started out as book packager, I had a Mac. I knew sort of how to set type. I had an MBA from some fancy business school. I said, \u2018I\u2019m ready to go.\u2019 But I wasn\u2019t good at it for seven more years. But if you are self-satisfied, and say, \u2018Well, why are they getting the gigs and I\u2019m not? Life isn\u2019t fair.\u2019 Then you\u2019re not going to be able to sharpen your knife and hone your skills to admit that, in fact, you could be a lot better at this. That\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>But the second thing is, you have to say no a lot. You will become the sum of your clients. You can define a freelancer\u2019s life by who their clients are. When you have great clients, they push you to do better work, which gets you even better clients and they pay a lot because they\u2019re happy to, because it\u2019s worth it. When you have lousy clients, they\u2019re in a hurry. They don\u2019t push you at all except on price, and the kind of work they want you to do, doesn\u2019t get you more clients because it\u2019s mediocre. So you have to be able to say to lousy clients, \u2018Sorry, I\u2019d love your money, but I don\u2019t want to work for you because you\u2019re a lousy client.\u2019 And then you have to use your downtime to work on spec to earn the attention of great clients.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Can you talk a little bit more about that, the downtime working on spec to get the better clients because I feel like that\u2019s where a lot of copywriters in our club get stuck?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, in the old days, in order to be a copywriter, you needed a bag of gold because you needed to buy a list and buy stamps, so it would be really hard. For example, to effectively prove to L.L. Bean that you could write catalog copy and form letters that would make L.L. Bean\u2019s sales go up because it would\u2019ve cost you tens of thousands of dollars to run that test on your own. But today, you could build a website and have that website attract people and connect people and earn people\u2019s attention until you had 5,000 people in the fly fishing club. Once you earned the attention of 5,000 people in the fly fishing club, you\u2019re not going to have any trouble at all getting great clients in the fly fishing industry because all by yourself for free, you earned the attention of 5,000 high value individuals. That\u2019s the kind of spec work I\u2019m talking about.<\/p>\n<p>Or if you don\u2019t want to view it as an online club, find a charity you believe in, show up, and raise them $10 million dollars. After you\u2019ve raised them $10 million for free, now you have a part of your portfolio that lets you walk to the next charity and say, \u2018I\u2019m so good at this. I raised $10 million for these guys and if I can\u2019t raise $10 million dollars for you, don\u2019t pay me.\u2019 By the time you\u2019ve done that five times in a row, then you really are the best at this. Not at anything, but at this, at this specific thing, and that\u2019s how you can carve out a career.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> Yeah, I think you\u2019ve just kind of answered this question I was thinking. On your podcast you talk a lot about being a category of one and a lot of times you\u2019ll talk about artists who are doing a daily painting or doing something that\u2019s very specific. I think sometime copywriters will hear that and say, \u2018Well, yeah, but I\u2019m not just art, I\u2019m also commerce, and so the kind of clients that I\u2019m working with don\u2019t allow me to do that kind of daily art or standout in that kind of unique way.\u2019 Are there ways that we can approach our clients in the commerce world that really do help us stand out from a 100,000 other copywriters out there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, you\u2019re channeling several whines beautifully and so let me-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> I\u2019m good at that. My wife will tell you I\u2019m good at that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, you\u2019re not whining, you\u2019re channeling it. But let me try to decode a couple things here. First of all, I don\u2019t use the word art to mean painting. I use art to mean something that might not work, something generous, something distinctive. So, William Shakespeare was certainly an artist. Marcel Duchamps was an artist. But I would argue that on a really good day when he\u2019s doing a breakthrough, Jay Abraham could be an artist as well. Most of the time, most of us don\u2019t get a chance to do art because we\u2019re too busy doing what we think of as our job, but art is available to anybody, whatever work that we do.<\/p>\n<p>But the essence of what I heard you say is, my clients won\u2019t let me and therefore I will be as mediocre as they are, which is where I was at five minutes ago. Get better clients. And if that feel like a catch-22, then go do the work on spec and if it feels like you can\u2019t do the work on spec, then you finally should admit you\u2019re not that good at it. There\u2019s lots of copy editors in the world and you\u2019re just one of them. I think it\u2019s possible to be better than that.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I would say is, it\u2019s na\u00efve and incorrect to assert that businesses always hire the single most effective freelancer for every job. What they usually hire are the freelancers who, in addition to doing the work, are easy to work with, help them through their fear, who are fun. So you could be the best at what you do, your category of one, without necessarily being the person who adds six spaces points to their beating their control cold letter. It might just be that you\u2019re the easiest one to work with on this industry. It might just be that you\u2019re the one that\u2019s the easiest to tell their boss about. Because when someone\u2019s hiring you, they\u2019re not spending their own money, they\u2019re spending the boss\u2019 money. So what they\u2019re buying from you is not what you do, what they\u2019re buying from you is a story and it\u2019s the story to tell their boss because they don\u2019t want to get into trouble. In fact, they want to get a smile. So, when someone says, \u2018Hey, great news. I hired Rob. You know Rob. He\u2019s blah, blah, blah, blah.\u2019 And the boss says, \u2018Good work.\u2019 Well, then you\u2019ve earned your paycheck right there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0I want to ask about emotional skills because when I heard about this, it seems so obvious. Yet, I don\u2019t think of it day to day in my work with clients. I don\u2019t think about the emotional skills that I\u2019m developing or how that gets me paid. How important is that today for freelancers?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Oh, I think it\u2019s the most important part. Here\u2019s why. A great client doesn\u2019t give you the trust and resources you need unless they believe you. And believing you is not a matter of proof, believing you is a matter of belief, and that\u2019s based on emotions. So everybody in the direct marketing world is afraid. They\u2019re afraid that their next campaign won\u2019t work. They\u2019re afraid that GDRP will land them in some Turkish prison. They\u2019re afraid that they\u2019re a fraud. That fear is why everyone\u2019s copying everyone else. That fear is why everyone seems so selfish. Why there\u2019s always a squeeze page, why no one will play the long game. They won\u2019t play the long game because they\u2019re afraid they\u2019ll be dead before the long game arrives. So, if you are the person who can assuage that fear through your approach, through your demeanor, through your professionalism, through your back and forth, through your reputation, then you\u2019re worth hiring.<\/p>\n<p>A simple example which is slightly outside this area is the world of professional speaking, which I\u2019ve been lucky enough to be in for 30 years. I\u2019m pretty good at it, but there are people who\u2019ve you never heard of who are better at it than me. So why do I get paid more than them and why do I have to turn down so many gigs? It\u2019s not because I\u2019m the best at public speaking, it\u2019s because the person hiring me gets the satisfaction of knowing they can tell everyone they hired me. And so my reputation causes me to have a waiting list and my waiting list causes me to have a reputation.<\/p>\n<p>The same thing is true for the magic, mysterious world of high end copywriting. Because everyone has a keyboard, everyone knows the alphabet, everyone could write a note. Your note might be a little bit better, but what\u2019s mostly better is your reputation and your ability to work with emotional labor will get the client to change the offer in the first place, will get the client to stop acting like a selfish jerk, will get the client to have the patience and the generosity to do great work. If you\u2019re the one who is in the room when the client made the right decision, you get part of the credit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> So, yeah, when you talk about fear, there\u2019s almost two sides to this. The client has their fear of hiring the wrong person. A lot of our audience is just starting out or are struggling through the first year or two of really trying to establish themselves and there\u2019s the resistance, the fear of getting started, or the fear of not knowing that you\u2019re good enough, all that stuff. We\u2019re basically dealing with fear on both sides of the equation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Exactly, and they play off each other, which is why they\u2019re also people who are listening to this who\u2019ve been struggling for 12 years, and they justify their mediocre work by saying that have to pay the bills. The problem is, no one promised you that this was going to work. So my suggestion is, get another job doing something brain dead that pays the bills and then use your spare time to do great work for great clients who deserve it. You can\u2019t compromise yourself to greatness. You can\u2019t be mediocre on the way to being really, really great. You have to begin with a very clear vision. Who\u2019s it for? What\u2019s it for? What do you do? What don\u2019t you do? What are you known for? How far out on an edge are you willing to go?<\/p>\n<p>So when I think about our mutual friend, Margo. Anyone could have started her list who knows how to type and write, anyone, right? She\u2019s not gifted from Thor and Loki and Jupiter. She just decided to do this work. Well, she doesn\u2019t get paid for it or didn\u2019t get paid for it for a really long time. That\u2019s why almost no one does it because they\u2019re saying, \u2018Well, yeah, but I need to be busy today. Who\u2019s going to pay me to write for them today?\u2019 So you end up working for some second-rate health insurance company, writing second-rate work. Well then, why are you surprised that you don\u2019t have anybody calling you to work for them again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0So it sounds like it\u2019s a decision you make and then it\u2019s also \u2026 Something you mentioned reminded me of just niching down too. That if you want to be great you need to niche down, which is what a lot of copywriters fight against. They want to write for everybody to get those jobs-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0\u2026 How important is niching down?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great expression that I\u2019ve never heard before. I don\u2019t use that expression. In my new book, the core idea of <em>This Is Marketing<\/em> is the smallest viable market, so you\u2019ve all heard it, you know? In the lean entrepreneur world, it\u2019s the minimum viable product. Well, I think that for most of us, we succeed when we obsess about the smallest viable audience, because if you eliminate off the bat 99.9% of all the things you could do, if you eliminate 99% of all the people you could hire, you say not allowed, just these people, you\u2019re going to treat them differently. You\u2019re going to learn different skills. You\u2019re going to stand differently. You\u2019re not going to walk away when it gets tough, because you\u2019ve got nowhere to go, and that idea that you\u2019re on a desert island, not on a giant planet, changes the way you deal with your resources. By obsessing about the smallest viable audience, what ends up happening is you succeed. Not succeed on the world scale, you\u2019re not going to be as big as Amazon. Of course you won\u2019t. You\u2019re a soloist, but you will succeed and that will give you the posture of a success, it will give you the reputation of a success and then slowly you can make your audience bigger. Back to the first thing I said at the beginning, if you say you can hire anyone and we\u2019re anyone, you\u2019re sort of doomed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> I really like that idea too, because we see this of the people that we talk to on an almost daily basis. When you talk about that minimal viable audience, and I love that term, you\u2019re also turning your back on this massively huge market of people and it\u2019s so scary to look at that market and say, \u2018I\u2019m not going to work with you,\u2019 and what could literally be hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars, and I\u2019m going to work with my small focused market and get enough for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> More than enough and this is the \u2026 Try the other method first. Okay, it didn\u2019t work. I\u2019m guaranteeing you it didn\u2019t work. Now what are you going to do? Well, why don\u2019t you just do copywriting for plastic surgeons in New Jersey? Because once you are known as the expert and the successful one for plastic surgeons in New Jersey, don\u2019t you think you can have 100 clients a year? I think you could. That\u2019s enough. It\u2019s more than enough. You\u2019re done.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> Again, it\u2019s great. So Seth, I\u2019d love to jump all the way back almost 20 years to when you launched <em>Permission Marketing<\/em>. It was actually the first book of yours that I ever read. A really smart boss gave it to me when I was working in an ad agency and said, \u2018You\u2019ve got to read this.\u2019 In the last 20 years so much has changed online with the amount of information that gets shared, with the things that we\u2019ve seen that are happening in Google and Facebook, and I\u2019m really curious to jump into how has permission and getting permission changed over the last 20 years? What would you do differently if you had to rewrite that book today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:\u00a0<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve intentionally not rewritten the book because if I did, I\u2019d have to rewrite it every week, but the fundamental concept has not changed one bit. The amount of lying and tricking, and regulation and nonsense around people who don\u2019t get the idea, continues a pace. But, the guys at Google took the idea and turned it into the multi, multi-billion dollar ad words business, and the guys at Groupon built it on permission marketing, and go down the list. One company after another is built on a very simple principle, that anticipated personal and relevant messages always do better than spam. Anticipated still matters, personal still matters, and relevant still matters, and spam is still the enemy. What\u2019s shifted is there\u2019s more spam than ever before, that we thought the world was busy in 1999. We had no idea. There were no smartphones then. You watch someone walking down the street, they\u2019re going to absorb 100 messages before the light even turns green.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve got all this clutter and the way almost all selfish marketers have decided to cut through clutter is by making more clutter, by increasing their frequency, by skirting the rules, spamming more people. The alternative is to make a promise and to keep it. The alternative is to be missed if you were gone. If you didn\u2019t send that email, how many people would write in and say, \u2018Where is it?\u2019 I would like to believe on my blog, it\u2019s a pretty big number. If I didn\u2019t blog tomorrow, I would probably hear from a bunch of people. The question for you and your clients is, if you didn\u2019t send out the \u2026 I hate this word \u2026 Blast. If you didn\u2019t send out that blast tomorrow, how many people would say, \u2018Where was it?\u2019 If the answer is no one, you don\u2019t have permission, you\u2019re a spammer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0I want to ask about feeling really uncomfortable and I get the concept with myself and stepping out of my own comfort zone, but recently you mentioned making your clients feel uncomfortable too, which really stood out to me. To do great work, to do remarkable work, is it not just about making yourself feel uncomfortable, but it\u2019s about bringing people along with you and pushing them outside of their comfort zone too?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Great question, Kira. I make people uncomfortable all the time, because I\u2019m very passionate about the change that I\u2019m trying to make. If you\u2019re not trying to make a change happen, then you\u2019re doing nothing. Change, maybe it could be something as trivial as change a non-customer into a customer, but ideally it\u2019s something bigger and better than that. Change a struggling parent into a successful parent, an uninspired student into an inspired student.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re going to make change happen, it will always be accompanied by tension and the tension is, it might not work. The tension is, I might get in trouble. The tension is, how much more do I need to know before we say yes? The tension is what will I tell my boss? The tension is, can we do it tomorrow instead of today? If you can\u2019t bring tension to the table, then all you are is a waiter, right? Then all you are is bringing something from the kitchen to the table, and if you get a really good waiting job in a really good restaurant, you\u2019re tips will be okay, but you\u2019re not changing anybody. I think if you\u2019re going to do this work carefully enough that you\u2019re even listening to a podcast like this, you want more than that, and what you want is to change a lousy, selfish, short term thinking in an organization into the opposite.<\/p>\n<p>What you want is not just to work on a movie, but to work on a movie that\u2019s a classic 50 years later. What you want is to do something that matters, and in order to do that, you have to be willing to bring tension into the room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0How do we bring that tension into the room? I\u2019m just not quite even sure where I would start and know how to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Yeah, so many examples, but the most important is you do it on purpose. You know what change you\u2019re trying to make.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> There was an ad agency in the UK, I believe it was called St Luke\u2019s. This was years ago. It won all the awards, a 30 person firm. What happens in the ad agency business is, after you win all the awards, you get more clients, which means you hire more people, but the people you hire, you\u2019re in a hurry, so you\u2019ve got to hire B people because all the A people are taken, and that gets you more clients. Then your work starts getting more average, because bigger means average. Then Saatchi and Saatchi acquires you and you have to do a four year buy out, and then you\u2019re done. That\u2019s the arc.<\/p>\n<p>Well these folks saw this happening, and they said, \u2018We don\u2019t want to do that. We just want to do what we do, but we can\u2019t do that if we\u2019re going to get bigger, so here\u2019s what we\u2019re going to do. We\u2019re not going to hire any more people. If we\u2019re not going to hire anymore people, we\u2019re not going to take any new clients. The only way we\u2019ll take a client is if an old client leaves.\u2019 Once they took this decision, everything changed for them, because you\u2019re sitting in the meeting pitching your client on this bold new idea, and the client says, \u2018Oh, I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s so bold. I don\u2019t know if my boss will go for it,\u2019 and so the partner folds his arms and says, \u2018Well, I don\u2019t know if you guys know this, but we have a policy. We don\u2019t take a new client unless we get rid of an old client and we have a waiting list. Do you want to be one of our clients or not?\u2019<\/p>\n<p>All sorts of status roles start getting played in this moment, because does the account exec want to go back to the boss and say, \u2018Uh oh, we don\u2019t get to work with the best ad agency in the United Kingdom anymore, because they fired us.\u2019 \u2018Really? Why did they fire us?\u2019 \u2018They fired us because I didn\u2019t have the guts to run an ad.\u2019 They can\u2019t afford that. That\u2019s too risky, so the safer thing to do is let the greatest ad agency in the United Kingdom decide this ad is worth running. That is how you build a great ad agency.<\/p>\n<p>Back when Jay Chiat and Lee Clow we\u2019re running Chiat\/Day, Steve Jobs sort of lost his nerve about the 1984 commercial. Didn\u2019t test that well, the board didn\u2019t think it was that great, and Jay and Lee said, \u2018Fine, we\u2019ll run it out of our own pocket.\u2019 They didn\u2019t even have to run it out of their own pocket. Just the act of them saying that called Steve\u2019s bluff and brought tension to the table. They were basically saying, \u2018Aren\u2019t you big enough to own this? Don\u2019t you want to do something great?\u2019 That\u2019s how you do it on purpose and that comes with saying no. It comes from being willing to walk away in a principled way based on the promises that you make. I am a copywriter, I\u2019m not going to put my name on this. You can do it without me, but if you want my name on this work, it\u2019s got to be better than that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 It feels to me like all of this stuff has to start with us, which is really the message of you know, Linchpin and so much of your writing is that you almost have to ignore everything that\u2019s out there and become the change first, and then the change almost starts to happen with the clients that you get, or with the work that you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That\u2019s exactly right, and that\u2019s why I\u2019m not super popular, which is fine with me, because I\u2019m not trying to average my way to popularity, I\u2019m trying to be specific. You\u2019re exactly right. You know? The book I wrote before <em>This Is Marketing<\/em> is called <em>What To Do When It\u2019s Your Turn<\/em>, and it\u2019s always your turn, and people don\u2019t want to hear that it\u2019s always their turn, but it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> Once I\u2019ve made that change then or once we\u2019re on that pathway, because it\u2019s probably not buying area. It probably takes a long time and it\u2019s consistent and constant. How do we know when we\u2019ve got something to the point where it\u2019s ready to ship, you know? Where we\u2019re not holding onto something too long or we\u2019re not going too early. I\u2019m almost asking for a checklist even though I know there\u2019s no checklist, but how do we know when the time is right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> There are very few people who go too early, so if you\u2019re asking yourself this question, it\u2019s probable that you\u2019re holding onto it too long. The other thing to remember is you learned something about copywriting, and what you learned about is dry tests in segmentation. You\u2019re not going to launch anything to everyone. Launch it to a few people, see what happens, test and measure, put it in the world, see what happens. The part of the magic of a daily blog is I\u2019ve done 7,000 tests about what works and what doesn\u2019t. Half my blog posts are below average and I wouldn\u2019t have known which ones they were until after I published them. That\u2019s how you learn, by shipping the work. If you view your work half the time as a teacher, because your customers are students, and the rest of the time as a student, because the people you\u2019re writing for are your teachers, you will continue this cycle of getting better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Is it okay to be in a stage where you might not know what your change is yet? I mean, I love this idea of if we all knew what our change was, the world would be a better place, but is it okay to have five years where you\u2019re trying to figure it out or is that just an excuse?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, I think \u2018should\u2019 gets us into a lot of trouble, but no. I think if you\u2019re a professional, you know what your change is, you should shift it over time, but if you say to a plumber, \u2018What change are you here to make?\u2019 The plumber will say, \u2018I\u2019m here to change your faucet from a leaking faucet to a non-leaking faucet.\u2019 Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> If you say to a copywriter, \u2018What change are you trying to make?\u2019 And they say, \u2018I\u2019m just trying to pay the bills,\u2019 then they\u2019re not a professional. They\u2019re a hack, and there\u2019s plenty of room to make a living as a hack, but you\u2019ll make $30 an hour and you won\u2019t make a lot of change happen, because it\u2019s all going to be an accident.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think a lot of what we do, and maybe why people have a hard time wrapping our heads around this is something that I think you\u2019ve written about this a little bit, and that is that brilliance comes in small bursts and a lot of the stuff that we\u2019re doing to be great is still mundane tasks in order to free ourselves to do what the brilliant thing is, you know? It\u2019s the learning, it\u2019s the prep work, it\u2019s paying the dues in order to be able to launch the awesome thing for the client, or for ourselves.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Yeah, I\u2019ll go with that for a little bit. I think that it\u2019s unlikely that most of the people listening to this have failed as much as you have or as Kira has, or as I have. Once they\u2019ve failed that many times, then they can say that they\u2019ve earned it, but failing more is what learning looks like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0All right. Well, I want to talk about being a genius, because this always resonates with me. Again, a lot of copywriters have an imposter complex and don\u2019t think they\u2019re good enough and compare themselves to more experienced copywriters. So, what would you say to them when they feel like, \u2018Hey, I\u2019m not a genius. I will never be a genius,\u2019 and that\u2019s just their cop-out? Can we all be a genius?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, if we carefully define the word, sure. Albert Einstein really messed us up. I talked about it in my <em>Akimbo<\/em> podcast, I think number 12 or 14. Albert Einstein said, \u2018Well, what you\u2019ve got to do, apparently, is have crazy hair, not know which house is yours. You have to paint the front door a funny color. You have to win a Nobel Prize, et cetera.\u2019 That\u2019s certainly the Einstein, Tesla version of genius.<\/p>\n<p>I would argue that when a five year old kid sees one his parents really wrestling with tension and walks up and gives them a hug, that\u2019s an act of genius as well, because he has solved a problem that he has never seen before and he has solved it with humanity. That isn\u2019t a giant act of genius like E = MC2, but it\u2019s an act of genius. For me, any time you\u2019re not a cog in the system, any time you dig deep to bring something real to cause a connection to happen and make it change without a manual, you\u2019ve performed an act of genius.<\/p>\n<p>Well, my word for someone who performs an act of genius is a genius. So, I think everyone has done that at least once in their lifetime. At least once in their lifetime they\u2019ve shown up in the right place at the right time with the right words to make a positive change happen. If that\u2019s true, then our job, the thing we\u2019re actually getting paid for is to do it again. The only way you do that is by doing it wrong first, wrong, and wrong, and wrong, and wrong, and wrong. If you\u2019re not willing to be wrong, it\u2019s unlikely you\u2019re going to be right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 Then once that happens, we have to be able to recognize that something\u2019s going right. We have to recognize your genius so that we can replicate that or you can replicate the process to create more genius.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Exactly. When we think about someone like Miles Davis, he recorded <em>Kind of Blue<\/em>, which is generally considered the most successful Jazz record of all time, in two and a half day. If I compare that to Leonard Cohen who took seven years to write the song <em>Hallelujah<\/em>, one song, well, who\u2019s more productive? I\u2019m sure that <em>Hallelujah<\/em> was an act of genius after six months, the rest of the seven years was hiding. What Miles understood was more editing and more retakes wasn\u2019t going to make <em>Kind of Blue<\/em> a better record. It was going to make it a worse record.<\/p>\n<p>So, if we can develop a style, and an approach, and a reputation where being ourselves, finding our true voice gets easier and easier, then your acts of genius become more common.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0I see that you\u2019ve done this \u2026 We referred to the 7,000 plus straight blog posts, those kinds of things, that it\u2019s really the showing up, it\u2019s the even if an idea is not all the way there, it\u2019s being there. I\u2019m curious, Seth, are there things that you wish, looking at the kinds of things that you have done, things that you wish you had done significantly differently at all in your career?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, I feel like I\u2019ve done a lousy job of being as brave or as generous as I should be with the privilege and the opportunity that I have, because I get stuck in my own way. It\u2019s hard to be as connected to as many people as you would like to connect to. I try to protect the flicker of forward energy that I\u2019ve been able to keep going for all these years, because I\u2019m worried that if I get too overwhelmed, it\u2019ll go away because it\u2019s hard to show up with a new thing when you haven\u2019t finished the whole thing yet. At the same time, I realize that I won the birthday lottery, and I truly am in a position of privilege and I waste it every day.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0I want to know what frustrates you the most. You have your change and, say, your mission. When you look at freelancers today, and if you want to go specifically with copywriters, what are we doing that just drives you mad?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Oh, it\u2019s the self-talk. It\u2019s not just copywriters, it\u2019s just everywhere we look. We say, \u2018Here\u2019s a key, there\u2019s the door, go ahead and unlock it.\u2019 They say, \u2018Well, can I have a money back guarantee?\u2019 You say, \u2018Well, yeah. Not only that, the key is free.\u2019 They\u2019re like, \u2018Yeah, maybe I\u2019ll unlock it tomorrow.\u2019 I get that it used to be you didn\u2019t have proximity, you didn\u2019t have access to the building, you didn\u2019t know the right people. I get that when I was starting out, there were only three business magazines, so the chances that you were going to have a column in one of them was close to zero, but now it\u2019s free. Just write a medium post. Who\u2019s stopping you?<\/p>\n<p>Well, we know who\u2019s stopping you, and it\u2019s frustrating for me as a teacher to find people who don\u2019t want to enroll. Then it\u2019s doubly frustrating to find the cynics who think that they should find a reason why people like me don\u2019t have your best interest at heart, that we must have some scam going on, and there must be some trick to it. At least for me, there isn\u2019t. I\u2019m a teacher, and this is my chosen area in which to teach. The altMBA has had 2,500 grads, The Marketing Seminar\u2019s had 6,000 because they work, but it should be ten times that. The reason it\u2019s not ten times that is because people are afraid. The reason they\u2019re afraid is they\u2019ve been brainwashed into believing that the status quo is safe, when in fact the status quo is the riskiest thing you can do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, and when you talk about being a teacher, I think about Professor Christensen at Harvard and the ways that education is changing. I think you\u2019ve done a lot of changing how marketing is taught. I want to ask from the other side, how do we show up as better students to be able to learn the things that teachers like you, like Jay Abraham, or others, how do we actually prepare ourselves better so that we can learn and then execute?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> There\u2019s no test. There\u2019s no test. The best teachers are not accredited. If there\u2019s no test, asking, \u2018Will this be on the test?\u2019 is a foolish question. If there\u2019s no test, asking, \u2018What is the minimum amount I can do to get through this and get certified?\u2019 that\u2019s a silly question. It\u2019s more like saying, \u2018This an all-you-can-eat high-end sushi buffet. You\u2019ve already paid, and starting tomorrow you\u2019re going on a long walk where there\u2019s going to be not enough food. Then the question is, \u2018How much can I put on my plate?\u2019 That\u2019s the way to think about it, not, \u2018How little can I get away with?\u2019, but, \u2018How much can I engage with?\u2019 That got boiled out of us in third grade, in seventh and in college, because there we were overwhelmed and we focused on the minimum. The minimum isn\u2019t interesting to me, and our reflex needs to shift to, \u2018I can\u2019t believe I get to learn all this stuff.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>One thing that got me in a lot of trouble when I wrote about it, one of my most popular posts, which is still true to this day, my opinion on this, is that libraries are dying. They\u2019re sort of a warehouse where books go to die, and that the number one use of most American suburban libraries is to check out DVDs for free for people who used to belong Blockbuster. It\u2019s such a shame, because we\u2019re talking about a million lifetimes worth of material, and knowledge, and insight just sitting there combined with the fact that your internet thing is hooked up to another billion lives worth of knowledge. All we can do I watch cat videos, because we\u2019ve persuaded ourselves that we\u2019re too tired to learn anything. That\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong> \u00a0Yeah. No more cat videos for me. We talked a lot about freelancers. I\u2019m wondering about the evolution from freelancer to entrepreneur, because I feel like I wouldn\u2019t consider myself an entrepreneur but I would like to move in that direction. I guess the question really is, what is the biggest difference between the entrepreneur and the freelancer?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Yeah, this is a favorite topic of mine, so here we go. I\u2019ve been both, so I\u2019m speaking from personal experience. Successful freelancers say to themselves, \u2018Wow, if I could just hire somebody to do the work I do and I could get six of those people, then I could keep a little bit of all of their income. I could make more money, have more impact, and not work as hard.\u2019<\/p>\n<p>What we end up doing is hiring people who aren\u2019t quite as good as us, because if they were as good as us, they wouldn\u2019t work for us. Then we give our clients work that\u2019s not quite as good as they expected. Then to make it worse, every time we get busy or every time we start running out of money, we hire the cheapest, best available person who\u2019s us to do the work. So, we end up completely overwhelmed, disappointing everybody, and backed into a corner, because they don\u2019t cohabitate well. Freelancers get paid when we work. So, if I give a speech, or I write a blog post, or I write a book, I wrote it, every word of it. I have no staff.<\/p>\n<p>Whereas, entrepreneurs get paid when they sleep. They build something bigger than themselves. Their job is to think of anything that needs to be done and hire someone else to do it. That\u2019s their job. So, Larry Ellison doesn\u2019t code at Oracle. Tim Cook doesn\u2019t design at Apple, not his job. If you\u2019re going to be an entrepreneur, be an entrepreneur and approach with rigor and say, \u2018All right, what would a corporation that does direct marketing look like?\u2019<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s what Wunderman did, he built the biggest direct marketing firm in the world. Lester, who I have known for many, many years, is a good copywriter, but he doesn\u2019t copyright anymore, not his job. His job is to build a firm. Any day he picks up a pencil, he is derelict in his duty. Should not be using a pencil. So, I don\u2019t think you can gradually go from freelancer to entrepreneur. I know this because I tried it, and it almost killed me. I was an entrepreneur for a long time. I built a company, I sold it for a bunch. Then I built another company, and I realized I didn\u2019t like being an entrepreneur. So, now I\u2019m back to being a freelancer. That\u2019s a different life, and you act differently when you\u2019re in that life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 I mean, so much to think about as we\u2019ve talked about fear, and change, all of that. Seth, we\u2019ve basically got this platform of copywriters who listen to us. Is there one message that you would say \u2026 Let\u2019s say we\u2019re all totally open to listening and learning, you can get one thing into our heads right now, what would that be?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Well, I think I would say there isn\u2019t one thing. If you\u2019re looking for one thing, I fear that might be a symptom of why you\u2019re stressed in that this is a profession. It is not a job, nor is it a task, that the task of, \u2018I need to send a letter to all these people,\u2019 or, \u2018I need to write a sales pitch,\u2019 there are more and more fast, and cheap, and easy ways to do that. Very soon, it\u2019s going to be done by a computer. Computers can already read x-rays better than humans can. It\u2019s not hard to imagine that they\u2019re going to be able to take the 10,000 words, of which we mostly use 400, and figure out how to write decent testable pages.<\/p>\n<p>So, that\u2019s not your job to do tasks. Your job is to weave together so many disparate things, people, and places, and emotions, and insight, and innovation, and history, and knowledge, and most of all persuading the people you work for to act like humans. That\u2019s your job. If you\u2019re looking for the one key, I\u2019m afraid there isn\u2019t one and that\u2019s why you\u2019re distracted. What we\u2019re talking about is doing the very difficult emotional labor, as Kira said, of being present, and creating tension, and causing change to happen in such a way that there\u2019s an insatiable demand for what you do because it\u2019s so rare. It\u2019s based on abundance, and connection, and generosity, and trust, and coordination. If you are that person, that dervish that makes all the magic come together, it\u2019s hard for me to imagine that you will ever have to look for work again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:\u00a0<\/strong> All right, Seth, well we want to thank you for your time and for sharing everything with us. If our listeners want to find you, where should they find your podcast, and your blog, and your hub?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong>\u00a0 And your book as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> Thank you. The new blog just launched, and it\u2019s at seths.blog. The new book comes out in November, it\u2019s called <em>This is Marketing<\/em>. It\u2019s available at all finer and also bookstores of ill repute. The podcast is called <em>Akimbo<\/em>, A-K-I-M-B-O. It\u2019s about bending the culture. You can find all my blog posts just by typing Seth into your favorite search engine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0I just want to add, as far as the podcast goes, as a copywriter listening to that, every single episode, at least so far, there\u2019s something that is completely applicable to creating sales messages, or interacting with clients, with customers. It really is a tremendous resource. Everybody who\u2019s listening will note your name and likely has read a book or two of yours, but with so much of the stuff that you put out in the world, Seth, it\u2019s worth consuming. More than that, it\u2019s worth actually using to get better. So, thank you for that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Seth Godin:<\/strong> You guys are really kind. I want to thank you on behalf of the people who are listening. I know personally how hard it is to keep showing up and doing this work, and I\u2019m grateful that you guys are putting the time and the care into it. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0Thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira Hug:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Thank you Seth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob Marsh:<\/strong> \u00a0That\u2019s our interview with Seth Godin. Each time I listen, it\u2019s a reminder of why we built the copywriter club in the first place and why our mission of helping copywriters grow their businesses and improve their skills is so important.<\/p>\n<p>It takes a pretty healthy helping of chutzpa to think that I have insights to add to that interview and Seth\u2019s advice\u2026 and yet, I\u2019m going to give it a go.<\/p>\n<p>First of all, something Seth said near the end of our discussion stuck out to me differently than it has before. He said\u2026 the status quo is the riskiest thing you do\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Maybe it\u2019s the fact that we\u2019ve worked with so many struggling copywriters this year or the thinking process I\u2019ve been going through recently as I\u2019ve been trying to figure out what I should do differently and bigger to make a bigger impact\u2026 whatever, this idea that doing what we\u2019ve been doing, even if its working, is the riskiest path forward. We all need to be thinking about what\u2019s next. What\u2019s next that will work better. What\u2019s next that will help me make a bigger impact? What\u2019s next that will get me in front of the right people?<\/p>\n<p>And let me just mention that this is exactly what the copywriter accelerator program I mentioned at the top of the show is all about. If Seth has got you thinking about what you need to do next to get out of the rut or change up the status quo so you can start creating your own art, go to <a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriteraccelerator.com\"><span>thecopywriteraccelerator.com<\/span><\/a> to learn more. And don\u2019t forget your code: POD200 to save $200 if you decide this is the right move for you.<\/p>\n<p>One other thing I will mention\u2026 Seth also talked about story.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>He mentioned St. Luke\u2019s the cooperative London ad agency, named for the patron saint of ARTS,<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>that came out of nowhere to become the UK Ad agency of the year as they made some amazing ads in the 90s for clients like British Telecom, Sky TV, IKEA and Body Shop. They were different in a lot of ways including the fact that everyone they employed was an owner. Each person got the same number of shares at the end of each year. Management structure was incredibly flat and everyone was invited to comment and critique everyone else\u2019s work. Everyone wasn\u2019t paid the same, but they all knew how much each other made. They experimented with hot desking which meant everyone sat in different spots each day\u2014no one had an office\u2014and they gave staff time to pursue interests like film making and music as part of their jobs. In the 90s this was very unique. No one else had done this stuff. In fact, it was so unique at the time, they made a documentary about it.<\/p>\n<p>Doing all those things differently led to some amazing creative work and lots of awards. And it also created an environment that almost killed the agency when a couple of clients left, and income dropped significantly. Two founders were forced out. And that goes back to what Seth had to say about failure and failing enough to know whether what you\u2019re doing is making a difference. The same forces that make St. Luke\u2019s great, also brought it to its knees. That\u2019s the risk when you do things differently. If you\u2019re not failing, you may not be trying hard enough to do something truly unique.<\/p>\n<p>The agency is still around\u2026 in fact it would be fun to interview one of the writers on staff at St. Luke\u2019s\u2026 and they still do things differently. In fact, over the past couple of years, they\u2019ve recaptured some of the positive PR that followed the agency in the 90s.<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s St Luke\u2019s story\u2026 but what\u2019s your story? The idea that you do work so good there\u2019s a line of people waiting to work with you and you only take on one or two projects a month is a story that helps keep clients engaged and coming back is one kind of story, but not the only kind. Why should clients choose you? What\u2019s the thing that makes you stand out? What\u2019s your story? Going back to what Seth said\u2026 that\u2019s a big part of the reason we should be doing spec work\u2026 the projects or art that attracts the right people to us. It may not be paid at first, but it is great. Different and superior.<\/p>\n<p>Before we wrap, let me just add this final reminder of your exclusive podcast listener discount of $200 when you go to thecopywriterclub.com\/accelerator. But do it now as this discount expires next week.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club podcast<\/p>\n<p>The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice.<\/p>\n<p>The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve enjoyed what you\u2019ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts to leave your review of the show.<\/p>\n<p>Don\u2019t miss our other podcast at aiforcreativeentrepreneurs.com. You can also watch on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for listening, we\u2019ll see you next week.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For the 375th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we brought back Seth Godin. But maybe not quite the way you think. We talked to Seth more than five years [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4853","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #375: The Status Quo is Risky with Seth Godin - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/status-quo-risky-seth-godin\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #375: The Status Quo is Risky with Seth Godin - The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"For the 375th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we brought back Seth Godin. 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