{"id":4995,"date":"2024-12-24T07:39:45","date_gmt":"2024-12-24T00:39:45","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=4995"},"modified":"2024-12-24T06:13:37","modified_gmt":"2024-12-23T23:13:37","slug":"mastering-copywriting-jason-rutkowski","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/mastering-copywriting-jason-rutkowski\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #427: Mastering Copywriting with Jason Rutkowski"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Becoming a great copywriter is not easy. But there are things you can do that 99% of other writers will not invest the time to accomplish. In the 427th episode of <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, we talked with copywriter Jason Rutkowski about the process of mastering copy, how to find a mentor, and all the effort that goes into the process of becoming great. Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9240\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-4995-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/mc.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC427JR.mp3?awCollectionId=405867&#038;amp;aw_0_azn_pgenre=Business&#038;amp;aw_0_1st_ri=blubrry&#038;amp;aw_0_azn_pcountry=US&#038;amp;aw_0_azn_planguage=en&#038;amp;cat_exclude=IAB1-8%2CIAB1-9%2CIAB7-41%2CIAB8-5%2CIAB8-18%2CIAB11-4%2CIAB23%2CIAB24%2CIAB25%2CIAB26&#038;amp;aw_0_cnt_rss=https%3A%2F%2Fthecopywriterclub.com%2Ffeed%2Fpodcast%2F&#038;_=1\" \/><a 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class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<h3>Stuff to check out:<\/h3>\n<p><span><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/parris-book-list\/\">Parris\u2019 Book List<\/a><br \/>\n<\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/best-way-to-get-dream-clients\/\">The Single Best Way to Get Clients<\/a><br \/>\n<em><a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0060891548\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0060891548&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=e140f3a59294eb5aa37df701e2d7f65e\">On Writing Well<\/a><\/em><span> by William Zinsser<br \/>\n<\/span><em><a href=\"https:\/\/brilliancebreakthroughbook.com\/\">The Brilliance Breakthrough<\/a><\/em><span> by Eugene Schwartz<br \/>\n<\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-underground\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Copywriter Underground<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> It\u2019s the holidays and if this year is like most of our past years, that means fewer of our regular listeners are tuning in for the next week or two. So instead of bringing on a new guest you won\u2019t have the opportunity to listen to and learn from, I\u2019ve gone into the archive to uncover an excellent old episode that you probably missed. And if you did hear it back when it aired a few years ago, you might have forgotten it.<\/p>\n<p>But honestly, this is one of our best interviews about mastery and the process of becoming an in-demand copywriter. The guest for this episode is Jason Rutkowski. At the time we interviewed him, Jason was writing for some of the top financial and health clients. So he\u2019s got a lot of great, timeless advice.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ll also hear Kira in this episode. Long time listeners will know Kira is a co-founder of <i>The Copywriter Club<\/i> and until the middle of this year, my co-host for <i>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/i>. Some of you have been asking, where she went? Earlier this year, Kira shared that after seven years of building The Copywriter Club, she was interested in pursuing some other challenges. So while she\u2019s still offically a partner behind the scenes, she hasn\u2019t been actively involved in the podcast and our programs for the past six months. Everything\u2019s fine. There was no messy break-up\u2026 and who knows, if the right opportunity presents itself, we may work on something together again. We\u2019ll see.<\/p>\n<p>So, while you\u2019ll hear Kira\u2019s voice, she is still working on other stuff for now.<\/p>\n<p>One more thing before we get to the interview, you\u2019ve heard me talking about <a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack\"><span><i>The Copywriter Accelerator<\/i><\/span><\/a><i> Fast Track<\/i> and that in the coming weeks it will be retired forever. This is the proven business building program used by hundreds of copywriters to start and grow their businesses.<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>Many used it to create six figure businesses. A few have earned seven figures since completing the program. And I know it will work for you too. But time is running out to get the strategies, insights and ideas we share in this business-building program. So go to <a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack\"><span>thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack<\/span><\/a> now to learn more\u2014and if its a fit for you, join so you can build a successful copywriting business for yourself.<\/p>\n<p>And now, enjoy this throwback interview with Jason Rutkowski.<\/p>\n<p><span>Hey Jason.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Welcome Jason.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Hey Kira, hey Rob.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>How\u2019s it going? Glad you\u2019re here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh no, I\u2019m excited. I haven\u2019t done one of these in a while, so I was excited to do it with you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Definitely took a little time to get our schedules aligned. We\u2019ve been trying to make this happen for a little while, because we know a little bit about you and where you write and we think it\u2019ll be a great conversation, so we\u2019re glad to have you here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah, definitely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>All right, so let\u2019s kick this off. Jason, how did you end up as a copywriter?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Okay, I\u2019ll give you the quick story about this. I was 19. I just finished my freshman year of college. I got an internship at a normal 9-to-5 job. And I realized I hated it. I was like, oh man. I saw all these people who worked in an office, you know, 30, 40 years; I\u2019m like, is this really going to be my life?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And also at the same exact time, I was on the internet one day and I found an internet marketing forum. And I was like, what\u2019s an internet marketing forum? I don\u2019t know. So I go on it and I see all these guys, like \u2018Yeah I just made 200 grand this year, 500 grand this year. I work from home; I\u2019m sitting at my desk all day.\u2019 I\u2019m like what? How is that even possible?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So I started getting really into it. And then I learned about traffic drivers and marketing and product creation and all these things. And I was really confused. And I was like 19, 20 years old. So I heard about copywriting, but I didn\u2019t decide to be a freelance copywriter right away. I was like, you know what I\u2019m going to do, I\u2019m going to create my own products; I\u2019m going to do Google Adwords; and I\u2019m going to drive traffic. I\u2019m going to do the whole thing, like from start to finish.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And I horribly failed. You know, I was going to school full-time, and then I was doing this part-time, and I was just failing and failing. And then after a couple of years of that, I decided, okay this isn\u2019t working. I\u2019m just going to do copywriting because I think this is what I like most. I don\u2019t like doing all this other technical stuff, marketing stuff. I\u2019m just going to do copywriting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, from then on out, I just picked a niche. I was like I\u2019ll just write in health. And from then on out I just started growing a business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>So, I\u2019m interested in what some of those failures looked like. What were the products that you were creating and why were they failing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh. I mean, the why is a lot of reasons. The products I was creating, I created kind of an \u2026 E-books were a big thing back then. Back then you could just write an e-book and like sell it and people would buy it. So I created one for anxiety, which I actually went through a lot in the beginning of my life. And I also created a few for some, like headaches solutions and kind of like different health things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And I put, I don\u2019t know, these 150, 200-page books together with just some random info, that I thought was good, but then the whole process of, you know I was trying to organic SEO, trying to target the right keyword. I was in college so I had very little money to actually spend on driving traffic, paid traffic. And I was just doing a lot of things wrong.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>It was a lot of small marketing things that you don\u2019t know, don\u2019t you know it? Like how to do the SEO right, how to do the traffic right. How to do the delivery right. How to build your list. Like, doing a lot of bad stuff with building my list. A lot of mistakes; it was just like, I was just some teenage kid and I didn\u2019t know what I was doing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But I did learn a lot, and I also learned through the process that what I really liked doing the most was the copywriting. So I just decided to give up the whole build my own business thing and do the copywriting thing instead.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>So what did that look like in the first stages? How did you connect with your first client, and why did you choose the niche that you chose?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh, back then that was me doing my own stuff. In terms of the freelance copywriting, I started on the freelance websites, which I don\u2019t know if it is a good way to do it anymore. But, you know, it was like these cheap little jobs on like Elance and Guru and \u2026 Like, I don\u2019t know if that stuff was even worth it. I mean, I guess it paid me some money, and it gave me some actual samples I could send to people. But I didn\u2019t really get any good long term clients out of that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I didn\u2019t start getting good long term clients until I decided, and it took me way too long to figure this out, but to actually go to live events, and like talk with people. And actually like start-<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Wait, what\u2019s that? Talking to people? What\u2019s that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>No, I know. I literally spent like my first three years of copywriting trying to do everything from my room. Like cold calling, Edesk, Olance, like cheap little, I mean, I don\u2019t know, I was making still a little money from it. I had like a 9-to-5 office job to support myself, and then I would come home and do this. I wasn\u2019t even close to making enough money to support myself.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So I decided, okay the only way this is going to work is if I start going to live events. So I\u2019m like, okay, what live events should I go to? Which ones are good? You know, what\u2019s some high quality live events I could go to?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And the first one I ever went to was a <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/financial-copy-clayton-makepeace\/\">Clayton Makepeace<\/a>, like $5,000 seminar. And I did not have $5,000 by the way. But I did have good credit, so I put it on my credit card. And I actually did, actually. One thing I always thank my mom for is she got me a credit card at 18 and she taught me how to use it. And by the time I was in like, my early to mid-20s I had a credit card with like a $25,000 limit on it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What? That\u2019s dangerous.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>It was completely paid. I know, but I had no debt. Like, it was unused. So I decided to be a little risky and go to this Clayton Makepeace seminar, which ended up being the absolute best decision of my life because I met my mentor <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/mentorship-parris-lampropoulos\/\">Parris Lampropoulos<\/a>. I met <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/time-to-quit-marcella-allison\/\">Marcella Allison<\/a> and I meet <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/a-list-copywriter-paul-martinez\/\">Paul Martinez<\/a>, all at the same conference. We are all very, very good friends to this day.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And then, after that, it was a matter of \u2026 I mean, I don\u2019t know; when I talk face to face with people, I feel like all my failures from early in my career gave me a kind of a big foundation to talk about, where it\u2019s like okay, this person clearly has done the studying, has been in the trenches, has done some work. I haven\u2019t had a lot of success, but at least, like this kid just needs a chance. Or this kid, he\u2019s not a newbie. So I trust this guy to some extent.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And then from then on out it was just, kind of going to more conferences, building my freelance career and you know, kind of trying to develop some long term relationships with people and that type of thing. So, that\u2019s how I did it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Okay, this is exciting. So, we\u2019re going to talk about, you know, cubbing with Parris and some of these relationships you\u2019ve built, but it sounds like this first event, this Clayton Makepeace event, was like the first big event that you invested in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>That\u2019s a big deal, and how did you even find the right event and like how did you even get over all of your hesitations and probably your own objects around spending $5,000 on an event that may not pay off?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Especially when you\u2019re still figuring that out. And you didn\u2019t know that you would build a relationship with Parris and meet Paul.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What did you have to go through to make that investment?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Okay. So, I think the most important thing about going to any event is having a plan. Like, you should have a plan. You should know who\u2019s going to be there, who are you going to talk to, and what you want out of the event, 100%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So when I went, I was like okay \u2026 Here\u2019s what actually happened. So, before the event, I\u2019m like, okay I\u2019m trying to do this freelance copywriting thing; I\u2019m on these freelance websites; I\u2019m making like, no money. I have like, no relationship and no reputation with any of these big names in the industry. I was like, what\u2019s the fastest, best way to both build my reputation, and what\u2019s a better way to get better results, and to increase my skill level?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And I started researching, and I noticed all these top A-list copywriters were trained by other A-list copywriters. So it\u2019s like okay, John Carlton was trained by Gary Halbert and Jim Rutz. Parris was trained by Clayton; <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-carline-anglade-cole\/\">Carline Cole<\/a> was trained by Clayton. <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copythinking-david-deutsch\/\">David Deutsch<\/a> was trained by Jim Rutz. It\u2019s like this whole succession of like, mentors and apprentices, and learning from people who are way smarter than you. And I was like okay, that\u2019s what I need.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And this was kind of back in the day, way before communities like, you know kind of like <i>The Copywriter\u2019s Club<\/i>. Back in the day it was just like, internet marketing forums where it was just like thousands and thousands of people who didn\u2019t know what they were talking about. And like these Facebook groups that don\u2019t know what they\u2019re talking about. And it\u2019s just like, there wasn\u2019t really a lot of high quality places you can really go to. So I was like, okay; I need to find a mentor. I was like okay, I\u2019m in the health niche; who\u2019s like the top health niche mentor that I know, that trains copy cubs? I go, oh, Parris Lampropoulos. And it\u2019s 100% true.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I was like okay, I need to find Parris. How can I contact him? I was like well, he has a LinkedIn and a Facebook; and I\u2019m like, that\u2019s not going to work. You can\u2019t really form a relationship by sending somebody a Facebook message, right? And people try to do this with Parris all the time. They try to send him like, a LinkedIn message, and be like, \u2018Hey Parris, can you be my mentor, and you know?\u2019 I was like, that\u2019s not going to work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So it\u2019s like okay, I\u2019ve got to meet Parris. And I\u2019ve got to meet other people too, but I especially want to meet him. So I was like okay, where is he going to be? And then I was like, who does big copywriting seminars and programs? I\u2019m like, AWAI. Which I was never really a part of. I never really went through AWAI\u2019s training program; I never did any of that stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So I went on their website and they have a live event page. And I went to that, and they\u2019re like oh, in two months Clayton is having this $5,000 seminar. I was like okay that\u2019s interesting; I love Clayton. Who is on the guest list? And then on the guest list was Parris Lampropoulos. I was like, oh perfect; I\u2019ll pay $5,000, and I\u2019ll go to the seminar, right? And I\u2019ll meet him there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Like here\u2019s the question. One of my goals was to get him to be my mentor. But there\u2019s no way you\u2019re going to do that, just from meeting him at one seminar, right? You\u2019re not just going to talk to somebody at a bar, and be like, \u2018Hey want to enter into this five, seven-year relationship with me?\u2019 You know, like that\u2019s not going to work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So I did what I always tell people to do when they go to seminars. You have to focus on like, making friends, and developing relationships. And getting people to like you. And the best way to do that, in my opinion. And I used to do this, and I still kind of do this to this day, before every seminar I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People two times. I read it two times. There is this section in the book called \u2018Six Ways to Make People Like You.\u2019 And it is like gold. It is like, if you just follow those exact six things, just follow it, like don\u2019t even question it, just follow.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And it\u2019s like simple stuff. It\u2019s like, \u2018Talk in terms of the other person\u2019s interests. Make people feel important. Remember their name.\u2019 You know, it\u2019s like \u2018Ask them questions about \u2026\u2019 It\u2019s the most basic stuff that people don\u2019t do. Like, most people go to seminars and then they do one of two things. They don\u2019t talk. They\u2019re super shy, which I\u2019m a naturally introverted guy really. They don\u2019t talk. Or if they do talk they talk about themselves. Both things are awful things to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But yeah. So read that book and I went there, and I met Marcella and I met Parris and I just really tried to become friends with them, tried to get them to like me. You know, I asked them questions about themselves; they asked me questions about myself, I told them about my career. Yeah really it kind of blossomed from there, and I was able to, Parris gave me his email, which I thought was great. Turns out it was kind of luck of the draw; he was starting a new copywrite group sometime soon.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And from then on out, we did a project together. He liked it, and then he invited me to his group. So that\u2019s how that worked out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>I love how strategic you were about this entire process, and I\u2019m so glad I asked about it because I had no idea that you planned it out. I just thought you accidentally bumped into Parris \u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>And built a relationship. And even now I\u2019m thinking wow, what a great idea to read that book twice before going to events. Because, I met you recently at an event, hung out, and I really like you, so I feel like you used those steps me on me, and it worked!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>It\u2019s just stuff you should be doing on a day to day basis, really. I mean, it\u2019s not even stuff like, okay I\u2019m only going to do this at this event.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, for the people on this podcast, I know Kira and Rob through a Brian Kurtz mastermind group. And you know, Brian talks about this all the time, about becoming interested in other people and talking with them. I mean it\u2019s really basic stuff that a lot of people forget.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>I mean, you talk about using this to meet a mentor; have you used the same process to meet clients and connect with clients?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh definitely. I mean, so another thing you should be doing is finding out what client\u2019s going to be at these events. Like before you even go. And you should be knowing, like, who they are, what their marketing is. You know, what promos are they running, what\u2019s their marketing strategy; how does the funnel look?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>To give another example at the Cleveland event we were at for <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/overdeliver-brian-kurtz\/\">Brian Kurtz<\/a>\u2019s thing, I went up to this guy, and Paul Martinez introduced me to this guy named Allen and he\u2019s the CEO of a health company called Patriot Health Alliance. And I didn\u2019t know who he was. However, I knew who his company was, because I\u2019ve been following them for like a year and a half.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So he introduces me himself, because Allen\u2019s kind of a low key guy, he doesn\u2019t like speeches or podcasts or anything like that. He goes, \u2018My name\u2019s Allen; I\u2019m the CEO of Patriot Health Alliance.\u2019 And I go, \u2018Oh, I\u2019ve seen three of your VSLs and eight of your sales letters.\u2019 So like, how\u2019s this thing doing? How\u2019s that thing doing? And he had this look on his face like, how does this guy know all this, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Because when most freelance copywriters go up to clients, they don\u2019t even know the basics, man. They barely even know who they are. You know, last year I was at AWAI\u2019s boot camp, which is every October. And Parris forced me to do the \u2026 Parris has a booth there for one of his clients and he was like \u2018Jason you\u2019ve got to help me. Barnaby\u2019s not,\u2019 because Barnaby wasn\u2019t there that year. He\u2019s like \u2018You\u2019ve got to help me do it, Jason! I need some help.\u2019 I was like, \u2018Okay Parris.\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And then I\u2019m standing there, at the job fair booth, so it\u2019s a job fair where people come up to you and tell you about themselves. And they would come up to me, they would be like \u2018What does your company do? What products does your company sell? Oh, what type of writing do you guys do?\u2019 I was like, how do you guys not know this information? I was like, you\u2019ve got to, like, when I went to my first boot camp years ago, I had like five or six clients where like, I took notes, like before I went. I knew what products they sold. I knew what campaigns they were running. I knew all this information.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And then when you enter into a conversation with these people, you\u2019re like six or seven steps down the line instead of at step one, which who are you and what do you do? You know? You don\u2019t want to be there. So I think that\u2019s a big mistake a lot of people make. And I mean, if you can show clients that like \u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Because these people care so deeply about their businesses. When you talk, like Allen, he\u2019s the CEO of a company. Like, his business is his life, you know. He\u2019s spent hundreds of thousands of hours of his time building that business. I mean, if you can talk with him at a deep level about it, and you can show like, you have like a high level of knowledge of his marketing, he\u2019s going to like you. He\u2019s going to be like, \u2018Wow this is someone I can actually talk with at a deep level.\u2019 And maybe he starts to like you a little bit, and maybe somewhere down the line, you get, you know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>A lot of times when I meet clients, the only thing I want is their contact info. I don\u2019t ask them for a job right away. Sometimes that happens, but I just want like, \u2018Hey man, let\u2019s just like, give me your email, let\u2019s set up a phone call, let\u2019s talk later. Or let\u2019s meet in bar later.\u2019 You know. I just want to be liked enough so I can continue the conversation later. Which should be your main goal really.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Then, stuff blossoms from that. So I think that it\u2019s a big mistake people make, when they go to conferences not knowing what you\u2019re doing, why you\u2019re doing it. Who you\u2019re going to meet. What you want from them. You know, how this relationship\u2019s going to develop. You know, stuff like that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah that advice to me, that is gold right there. This interview, just for that one thing is worth the hour of time that we\u2019re putting into this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah. We\u2019re done.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> I don\u2019t want to repeat everything I just said, but it is really important. It\u2019s funny Kira says, you were surprised by how strategic in meeting Parris, but I mean, that\u2019s how you get those results, is by being very strategic, you know. You have to have some goal in mind, and then you have to have some action steps to achieve. And it\u2019s like, if you just start thinking about that way in everything that you do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>A lot of stuff I\u2019m just sitting at my desk and I\u2019m thinking, what should I do? And so, I\u2019m going to go to this conference, what should I do? What do I want? Like, three or four basic questions you could answer to yourself before you do anything. Don\u2019t just go do things without thinking about it. It doesn\u2019t require much, but \u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Here\u2019s one thing that I wanted to bring up. I was reading your questions this morning and I thought, I definitely want to tell you this. If you\u2019re a freelance copywriter and you go to a marketing event, what\u2019s great about going to a marketing event is you get to meet other, successful writers. Which is something you don\u2019t usually get to do. Usually you\u2019re sitting at your desk, wherever you live, and you\u2019re just all alone, and that\u2019s it. So like, okay, two or three times a year you\u2019re able to actually talk with people; this is great.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And one thing I used to do, when I was like, I had no success and my skill level was low, and I had no reputation, is I would go up to people like Marcella and I would just ask them questions about, kind of like what you\u2019re doing on this podcast. Like, how did you get started? What was your first job? Like, what steps, what was your biggest obstacle?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>What was your first job? What steps, what was your biggest obstacle? What did, same questions. But in a face to face interaction, maybe at a bar or a restaurant, or conversation flows really easily and all the benefits of face to face interaction. I would just, take mental notes and I would go and I would find as many successful freelance copywriters as I could, which would be eight or nine of them at each conference, and I would just ask them the same questions. How did you get started? What was your first jobs? People love telling you their stories, man. Especially, if you\u2019re successful, and you\u2019re and entrepreneur, people love to talk about, \u2018Oh man, I was struggling so hard, and then I was homeless for six months,\u2019 everyone wants to tell them that story. But you get to learn so much. You get to see what the thinking is. Just like this podcast. You get to see what the thinking is. Its like, \u2018Okay, I should be doing that stuff. I should be doing that.\u2019 Almost like the questions I were to ask myself I learned from these people. Because it\u2019s the same questions they ask themselves. Okay, I\u2019m going to start doing that. You might not get success right away within the first day or two, but if you plan it out, six months from now, 12 months from now, you\u2019re going to be so much farther along than you ever thought was possible.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>You should\u2019ve recorded those conversations. You could\u2019ve turned it into a podcast.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> If only.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>So, I want to ask you about-we\u2019ll kick off and talk about your copy cub experience with Parris because you mentioned him. Did you know the exact moment where Parris leaned in and was like, \u2018Oh yeah, I want you to be my copy cub.\u2019 Was there a moment that you had together?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> Yeah. You know, I really want to send you guys something. The story of how I met Parris and how I him to give me his email address. Because by the way, the funny story about Parris giving me his email-Parris doesn\u2019t carry business cards, because he doesn\u2019t want anyone to talk to him, right? He\u2019s actually an incredibly nice guy. But he doesn\u2019t want people..If you meet him at a \u2026 I\u2019m making him sound like he\u2019s the Scrooge or something, he\u2019s not. He\u2019s actually a nice guy. But he doesn\u2019t want people contacting him because too many people contact him, right? He\u2019s at that level where he\u2019s too famous in our industry. So, too many people ask him for stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>It was really funny. I was talking with him, and it was Paul Martinez, me, and Parris. And Paul asked Parris a question. And then Parris turns around and there\u2019s a piece of paper on this table that\u2019s behind them, and he writes something down, I\u2019m like, \u2018Okay. He\u2019s going to give Paul\u2014it\u2019s a note for Paul.\u2019 because Paul just asked a question, he\u2019s going to write something down and give this thing to Paul. So he writes something down. He folds it up. And then he walks up to me. He hands this thing to me, and he says, \u2018I never give this to anybody.\u2019 That\u2019s what he said. He didn\u2019t say anything else. He just said, \u2018I never give this to anybody.\u2019 And he handed it to me, and I opened it up and it was his email address. I was like, \u2018No way! This is unbelievable!\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What!<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>And by the way, when you gave me that, I instantly thought to myself, \u2018That $5000 was worth it. This is exactly what I came here for.\u2019 Like I said, my main goal wasn\u2019t to become\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Score.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>My main goal was to become his friend, and have him at least give me his contact info. Which is super hard to get. That was my big, big goal. And that happened at the second day, and I was like, \u2018Okay. I can go home now. I don\u2019t even need to stay at this conference anymore.\u2019 Even though it was a great conference.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So what I wanted to send you guys was when I first met Parris-well, let\u2019s rewind. Right before I met Parris and met Marcella, because I was too nervous to go up to Parris, I met Marcella and I asked her the standard \u2026 how to win friends and influence people questions. I asked her a bunch of questions about herself. Then, what happens was when you ask people questions about themselves, they ask you question about yourself, and I had a couple of stories that I actually had planned out about my career and myself, and I told one of them to Marcella, and she goes, \u2018Wow. That\u2019s actually a great\u2026\u2019 I don\u2019t have time to go into the story right now, because it\u2019s really long. It\u2019s a ten minute story. But she\u2019s like, \u2018Wow, that\u2019s actually a really great story.\u2019 She goes, \u2018You have to tell that to Parris.\u2019 And then she dragged me over. Marcella always takes full credit for this. Every time I meet Marcella, she goes, \u2018I introduced you to Parris! You have to thank me!\u2019 I\u2019m like, \u2018Yeah, okay Marcella.\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>She dragged me over there, and she\u2019s like, \u2018Parris, you have to listen to this kid\u2019s story.\u2019 And I told them the story. When I told it to him, his eyes lit up. Like when you\u2019re surprised, your eyes get really big. And he\u2019s like, \u2018who is this guy? Who is this-\u2019 I don\u2019t have time to go into the story, however-<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>You\u2019re teasing the story! You\u2019re teasing it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Here\u2019s the thing. About a year ago, I wrote out the story because Marcella just started her \u2026 thing. She needed some content to send to her list of people. I wrote this thing, and I go, \u2018Hey, Marcella. You remember this story I told you?\u2019 She was like, \u2018Yeah, that\u2019s a great story.\u2019 I was like, \u2018Yeah, I wrote an article about it.\u2019 I think the title is, The Single Most Important Thing You Could Do At Life Marketing Events. And then I went into this thing about telling a really interesting story about yourself that gets people really excited about you and who you are. And I told the story. And then I taught the lesson that comes after the story, it\u2019s the same thing I\u2019m telling you right now. But I actually wrote out the whole thing. So I\u2019m going to send it to you, and you guys can share it with your people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Cool, we\u2019ll link to it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What\u2019s great about stories is, it convinces people, \u2018Okay, this guy\u2019s marketing now, just copywriting now, just work ethic.\u2019 It instantly communicates all that, but in an exciting, interesting way. You should be really using that when you\u2019re meeting people at marketing conferences. That\u2019s what the article is about. But yeah, it has the whole story in there if you want to read it, the whole thing\u2019s in there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Cool, we\u2019ll check it out. So, I am a little hesitant to ask this question because I know you can\u2019t answer a whole lot. We\u2019ve talked with Paul, we\u2019ve talked with Marcella, and any time we talk to people who have been Parris\u2019 Cubs, everybody wants to know what the experience is like. I\u2019m guessing you get this from just about everybody that you talk to, who knows that you\u2019re in that relationship. <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/parris-book-list\/\">Parris actually shared his book list at our event<\/a>, so there are some of those kinds of things that I know that he\u2019s willing to share, but will you just tell us a little bit about the experience? The kinds of things that you do with Parris? Without revealing anything that\u2019s super secret, but just what\u2019s that experience like, and what have you taken away from it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yes, I could give you a general overview. It\u2019s like you said, you got the book list. Parris always has us reading books. We get on these calls that are two, three hours long sometimes. The books in itself, you should read the books, 100%. But they kind of provide a syllabus, where he teaches the lessons through the book. So we read the book, we discuss our notes, and then he starts going very deep into what he thinks about it. What the deeper, psychological lessons are in the book. He throws in a lot of examples from his career, stuff he\u2019s written, he sends us writing examples. The books, I can get more into this about the other stuff too, but the books are kind of a launching pad to other things he wants to talk to us about.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>There\u2019s a lot of homework. There\u2019s a lot of writing. There\u2019s a lot of unpaid writing, by the way. There\u2019s paid stuff, but it\u2019s a big time commitment. From the moment he starts to call, like I said, some of these calls are three hours long. It\u2019s constant. It\u2019s constant copywriting. Constant marketing. It\u2019s almost overload. He gets out of the call, and everyone\u2019s extremely exhausted. Course he has his techniques that I can\u2019t talk about. He has proprietary stuff I can\u2019t talk about, but overall, it\u2019s a lot of Parris talking. I don\u2019t know how he does it. When you\u2019re at that level, that Parris is at, he could just go off on one topic for a really, really long time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But at the end of every call, you feel, man, I learned so much, and then what Parris says, he records the call, and then we have to re-listen to it. If you really want to get all the lessons out of that call, you\u2019re re-listening to it five or six times at least.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Do you have any specific questions, any more about the group?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>I have a question. For someone who is listening and they\u2019re, \u2018Okay, I don\u2019t know Parris, I\u2019m not going to be his copy cub anytime soon,\u2019 for whatever reasons, \u2018but I want to do something similar.\u2019 Do they need to read the books? Do they need to find another mentor? Is there a way we could almost hack the system and, of course, you can\u2019t replicate that type of experience that you\u2019re currently having, but what about for people who cannot be a copy cub for whatever reason, how can they take something that you\u2019ve learned and use it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> The thing about Parris is he teaches you the lesson and you might understand the lesson intellectually-and the same thing, say you read a book. Say you\u2019re reading a copywriting book. One of the books on those lists. It talks about some headline technique, or it talks about some bullet writing technique, or it talks about some other copy technique. You might understand it intellectually, but if you want to actually understand how to apply the stuff in real life, the absolute best thing you could do is take winning promos, and I could talk about how you actually know how a promo is winning or not, take winning promos in your niche, and start reverse engineering what you\u2019re looking at.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Specifically for the one-so Parris would say, \u2018Okay, here\u2019s this super specific bullet writing technique that I came up with. And here\u2019s why I do it.\u2019 Okay, that makes sense. And then what I do, is I pull up five or six winning promos, preferably Parris promos, but it could be any top health copywriter. And I just reverse engineer, I look for instances where that technique is happening over and over, and I write it down. I have a notebook or I have a Word document and I have all these Word documents on my computer, where it\u2019s, \u2018this technique.\u2019 And I open up that Word document and it\u2019s just like 20, 25 examples of that technique. And it\u2019s like-this other technique, this headline type, in the health niche there\u2019s three or four stories you can write.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>A common story in the health niche is, some person has a problem, they tried a million different things, they came in to the doctor, \u2018Doc, I tried all these million different things, didn\u2019t work.\u2019 The doctor is like, \u2018Okay, I got this new treatment that no one knows about.\u2019 Do the treatment, \u2018Wow, Doc, two weeks later, my thing\u2019s cured, I suffered from this for 20 years and now it\u2019s gone.\u2019 Then people wonder, \u2018Well, what\u2019s the technique? How-\u2019 And then you could go into copy. That\u2019s a common health niche story technique.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Well, what I do is I create a Word document. I go find five or six or 10 or 15, 20 examples of that and I just either hand write it or I type it out. And now I have a document where it\u2019s just, \u2018Okay, anytime I\u2019m writing health copy,\u2019 I can open up that document. \u2018Okay, I want to use this type of story, this type of technique.\u2019 Now I\u2019ve got, 15, 20 examples that I can, not steal the copy, but I can swipe the structure, I can swipe the buildup, how they tease it. It just drills it into your mind. The most important thing is not just realizing what you need to do, but how you can actually do it in your day to day life. There\u2019s so many times where people read the books, and go, \u2018Oh yeah, that\u2019s interesting, I understand that intellectually.\u2019 But then, they\u2019re doing the same copywriting now as they did six months ago. That\u2019s because they didn\u2019t drill it into their head of, well, how is this actually used in real life, and how can I structure this so when I\u2019m doing a project I can use this in real life. How\u2019s it going to change the way I write copy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>A lot of people think it\u2019s going to happen automatically, it\u2019s not. Okay, you need to go out of your way. Which is why Parris recommends handwriting promos. A big benefit of that, it drills it in your head of how you\u2019re actually supposed to be doing this at this moment. So, I would recommend that. That was the biggest breakthrough. Really, I used to not do that. When I first started the Parris group, and then I started reading books and reverse engineering things, creating Word documents, finding real life examples. Honestly, I think it made me a lot better.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah, I think what you\u2019re talking about here is mastery. When Parris was talking about his book list at our event, he mentioned you don\u2019t just read them once. You read them once just to get a sense of what\u2019s in them, then you go through the second time and you underline, and then you go through the third time and you start taking notes, handwriting what you\u2019ve underlined into a notebook. And then there\u2019s two or three more times you go through it. You\u2019re basically taking that process to everything that you\u2019re doing or seeing. My sense is, Jason, you don\u2019t just want to be a copywriter, you want to be a master of copywriting. I think there\u2019s a really significant difference.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh, definitely. A part of that\u2019s just my personality. I do it that way because that\u2019s the only way I can imagine myself doing it, you know what I mean? I don\u2019t think of it as I have to put in this hard work, I think of it as, well, this is my career, and the more I do this, the better results I get. Then when I\u2019m sitting with clients or talking with other copywriters, I can speak about things at a higher level. You if you do stuff on a daily basis, if you\u2019re constantly reading promos, reverse engineering promos, reading books, taking notes, even just one or two years down the line, you\u2019re going to be able to sit down with people and just-almost like this, have a huge conversation about the tiniest, littlest thing. When I talk with Paul, Paul Martinez, huge A-list copywriter, that\u2019s what we do when we sit down and we have private one on one conversations. We\u2019ll just talk about one tiny little copywriting thing for 20, 30 minutes. Because we both went through that process of deep diving, studying handwriting, reverse engineering promos, reading books. That just changes the way you think about things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:\u00a0\u00a0 <\/b>So, before we leave off this whole idea of what you\u2019re doing with Parris and this self-mastery thing, is there one book or one course that you would say, \u2018Hey, if you want to get started on this path, this the book to start with.\u2019 What would that be?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> This answer is an answer no one ever talks about, and it makes me really mad. It\u2019s actually one of the first books Parris had us read. It\u2019s actually about a topic that so many people ignore. It\u2019s so obvious. At this point, I get a lot of people who want me to critique their copy. \u2018Hey, Jason.\u2019 It doesn\u2019t have to be for the health niche, but, \u2018Hey Jason, I have my business, can you please, I\u2019m not a copywriter, can you critique my copy.\u2019 And they send me their copy. All of them have this one huge, huge problem that they don\u2019t seem to realize that they have. And it\u2019s not that they don\u2019t understand copywriting, it\u2019s that they don\u2019t understand how to write. Just so many copywriters who cannot write.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, a book that\u2019s on Parris\u2019 list is, <a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/3ZPp1BZ\">On Writing Well by William Zinsser<\/a>. I love that book. Another book I would recommend is The Brilliance Breakthrough by Eugene Schwartz, specifically the first eight chapters of it. Listen, when I critique copy, the first thing I critique is how it\u2019s written. Not your power words, or motion or any of that stuff. Just, your sentence doesn\u2019t make sense. Or, this sentence doesn\u2019t connect to that sentence, or it\u2019s too long. Or, you\u2019re bouncing around, or you\u2019re using the wrong thing in the wrong-really basic writing ability that people think, \u2018Oh, Jason, I passed 11th grade English class. I don\u2019t need to learn how to write.\u2019 Or even worse, \u2018I have an English degree.\u2019 I\u2019m like, \u2018Show me something you\u2019ve written. You could\u2019ve been bad, I don\u2019t know, just because you have a bachelor\u2019s degree doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re good at writing.\u2019 I always tell people, it\u2019s so foundational, people ignore it. Learn how to write. Read those two books. I\u2019ve read On Writing Well and The Brilliance Breakthrough probably, and this is not exaggerated, eight or nine times each with my notes. I re-read the book and re-read my notes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I spent the first year with Parris just learning how to write. One thing, when Parris critiques my copy, if you haven\u2019t applied the lessons from those two books perfectly? He\u2019s going to chew my ass out. For ten minutes. \u2018Jason, we went over this a million times.\u2019 Nothing to do with copywriting. Just with writing sentences.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh my gosh.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>It\u2019s so important, and so many people ignore it. Then they come to me with this fake John Carlton copy where they have these 40, 50 words sentences that never end. And none of it makes sense. I\u2019m just, \u2018Dude. Forget the copywriting books, man. Start with the writing books. Go through those two books and then go to John Caple\u2019s and Vic Schwab and those books, okay?\u2019 So that\u2019s my recommendation. Learn how to write.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>That\u2019s incredible advice.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Good stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Thank you. That was a PSA.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> Really, people listening to this, I mean it\u2019s a big thing. If you read those two books, especially multiple times, like I said, The Brilliance Breakthrough, Eugene Schwartz. Brian Kurtz sells it, and On Writing Well, William Zinsser. It should fundamentally change the way you write sentences. It should. If it\u2019s not, maybe you\u2019re already an amazing writer, that\u2019s great. I hope you are. That\u2019s a lot less work. But if you\u2019re like me, which is like most people, you need to really sit down and do it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>And just as far as Brilliance Breakthrough goes, just to add, when you buy that book you get a workbook because there are writing exercises in the book and basically that allows you to run through the workbook. You\u2019re not necessarily writing in the book itself. You can actually practice with it. So it\u2019s a fantastic resource.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Totally. I think he sells it for $200. Which people might think, \u2018$200 for a book? Wow. I\u2019m never going to pay that.\u2019 Totally worth it. 100%. It\u2019s funny, at the end of the eighth chapter, Eugene Schwartz actually says, \u2018I could end the book right here if I wanted to.\u2019 Which is true. Because the most fundamental part is the first eight chapters, and then everything else is supplementary, it\u2019s good stuff. But the first eight chapters, man. It\u2019s stuff about, \u2018how to write clearly, how to write simply.\u2019 Simplicity and clarity, two big things people don\u2019t know how to do. The way Eugene Schwartz talks about it in that book is amazing. I love that book so much. Totally worth the $200.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>So, I want to hear more about your writing process. When you\u2019re sitting down to work on a project, I want to get a glimpse into what\u2019s happening in your office. Where are you starting, clearly you have an incredible resource library and swipe files to pull from, but what is your process look like as you\u2019re moving into a project? Even starting with the research portion.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah, research is huge. Becoming a good researcher is just as important as becoming a good writer. I know I just talked about it for 10 minutes, about learning how to write. The thing about copywriting is<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Like, I know, I just talked about for 10 minutes about learning how to write. Thing about copywriting is, there are so many things to learn. Right. If you want to do this at a really high level, you have to master like, a hundred different skills. Which is kind of daunting, but also, kind of exciting. And, one of the big skills you need to master is research. So, the question is, what do I research, and how do I do it? That\u2019s going to depend on the niche. It\u2019s going to depend on your product.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>You know, in health, the big products are supplements, books, just DVD programs and like, newsletters. Okay? All those products have like, their own research methodology that you\u2019re going to go through. That\u2019s specific to the product in that niche. I would say overall, the best thing you can do \u2026 And this is another thing that takes forever to do, but it\u2019s totally worth it is, I would take promos written my Parris and Health Niche, like, \u2018Okay Parris, I\u2019m doing a book promo for Bottom line right now.\u2019 I would take a book promo, that Parris did for Bottom line, and I would open it up, and I would read the information. And then, I would say to myself, \u2018How did Parris come up with this information?\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>You can just ask yourself, \u2018How did he do this research?\u2019 And you\u2019ll come up with the most surprising answers. So, one thing I used to do was, Parris wrote a bunch of promos for Bottom line Books. Five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago. Well, those promos, because Parris wrote them, were hugely successful. And that means, millions of people bought those books, or hundreds of thousands of people bought those books. So that means, people have those books. Like, books are eternal. Right? People buy a book and put it on their bookshelf and never look at it. But, that also means, that people sell those books, to this day.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, you can actually, I would take a Parris promo from 15 years ago. They were from Bottom line, and, the book would be called \u2026 I actually have one right here. Oh. Speed Healing Unlimited, Bottom line Speed Healing Unlimited. It\u2019s right by my desk. I went on Amazon. I typed in Bottom line Speed Healing Unlimited, and there\u2019s people that sell this book for like, two dollars. And you can buy it for like, two bucks.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, I bought the book, I put the book on my desk, I took Parris\u2019 promo, I put the promo on my desk. And, I would open up the promo, and it would say a bullet, or an article. And then, it would say the page number. It\u2019s like, I found this information in this page of this book. I would take the book, and I would open it up to that page, and I would read the page. And I would say to myself, \u2018Well, how did Parris come up with this information?\u2019 So, I\u2019m like, reverse engineering his research process. Right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And you\u2019ll see stuff, like the book would be so boring. It\u2019s the most boring information ever. And Parris turned it into like, amazing \u2026 You know, David Deutsche is like good at this too, like this amazing, amazing thing. And, you can do this to this day. Especially with information products. Just reverse engineer the research. Like, find out what the final copy was. I think go back to the source, and then you\u2019ll start realizing, \u2018Oh. During my research process, I should think like this, I should do this.\u2019 You know, if I\u2019m reading information, it\u2019s like this. I should think about in this way. I should write this down, and maybe this turns in a piece of copy later.\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And, I would just do stuff like that. I did that for like, seven or eight books. Like, seven or eight promos. And, books are great, because people always keep up \u2026 Like I said, people always hold on to books, people \u2026 Books last forever. So, if you get some book promotions, written by A list copywriters, and if you could buy the book, or buy the free report. Whatever information product it is. And, you can like reverse engineer it. I mean, that influenced my research process.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, like I said it\u2019s going to be different depending on what product you\u2019re doing. What niche you\u2019re in. But, a lot of it is, a lot of learned copy is, reverse engineering. And then, it\u2019s going to influence your research process in your own way. Really, because I feel like a lot of people\u2019s processes different. So, specifically if I\u2019m doing like a supplement, you know, I\u2019ll research Google or, I\u2019ll go to scientific articles, I\u2019ll do bunch of random different things. But, all my reverse engineering is influenced by process in some way. You know, Parris always says, \u2018I can look at a piece of information, and I see something amazing. And a B list copywriter looks at the same piece of information, and they see something that\u2019s boring. Right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, it\u2019s like, I take that amazing thing, and I see the gold nugget in there that other people don\u2019t see, and that\u2019s a big reason for its success. And, that\u2019s a way you can learn to do that by, \u2018Well okay. What did Parris see? Okay. Let me go back. Let me see what he saw.\u2019 You know. So, that\u2019s what I recommend.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>There\u2019s so much stuff here, that I\u2019m just totally, jonesing over it. This is awesome, so. I\u2019m thinking that there are, you know people may be listening to this, and thinking, \u2018Okay. Jason works in the health niche. That\u2019s something I\u2019m really interested in doing myself. You know, in addition to the advice you gave about like, how do you connect with potential clients. What are the things that people can do to break into this niche? You know, what should they be looking at, studying, you know, how do you get your first client, you know, writing for say, a newsletter, or a help supplement?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>The very first thing is, studying the market. So, you need to get on everybody\u2019s list Everybody\u2019s on the list. For health, I\u2019m just going to name some random companies. You got, New Market Health, you got \u2026 And all their companies. Health Sense Media. You got, Dr Gundry Advanced Bio Nutritionals. Nature of City, Patriot Health Alliance. So, you get on everybody\u2019s email list. And what I did is, I created my own Gmail account, just for health. So, I have a Gmail account, that\u2019s just for collecting health emails. Like, chaff and chiving emails. That email has like, 80 thousand emails. I have 80 thousand health emails.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Wow.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Because, I\u2019ve been doing it for years. Right? It\u2019s like, years old. So, first process, before even thinking about writing for somebody, is studying the market. If you\u2019re meeting people, if it\u2019s through an email, through LinkedIn, at a marketing conference, through a reference, or recommendation, you should know who you\u2019re talking to, and what you\u2019re talking about. Like, you have to know that stuff. It helps if you have some writing samples, because everyone always asks writing samples, and if you don\u2019t have writing sample, do what I did, rewrite somebody\u2019s copy. Take a control that\u2019s already out there, and rewrite it completely in your own words. Like, this works well for an information product, so it\u2019s like, okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Bottom line, it has this promo, and it\u2019s a book, a book promo to sell a book. Ordis Guy has a program that\u2019s like an e-book or free report. And the copies about that information product, well, just buy the information product, and rewrite the copy with your own headline, in your own body copy. You know, using all the lessons you learned from the books, in reverse engineering, and studying the health market. And have, you know, at least two samples just have two samples. Clients just want to see that you can write something.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Also, do the two books I talked about, on how to actually write sentences. And, put a couple samples together. And, I mean that \u2026 I always hated, things like, at least for me, like cold emailing, and cold calling people never really worked. Really, I was struggling until I started going to events, and you know, started doing all the things I talked about. About researching people and becoming friends with people. That\u2019s just my process.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I know there are some people out there that have some success with, you know, I know Paul Martinez on his podcast on here, talked about some things he did, that sounded really good, that I never did. So, maybe in terms of contacting people through email or LinkedIn, or online, maybe other people have some better information than me. But, for me it was, you know, get to the point where you know what you\u2019re talking about. Learn how to make people like you, how to become friends with people, form relationships with people. Go to live events and then, grow your copy writing business from there. And you know, deep dive your niche. Deep dive into you\u2019re market, and know what you\u2019re talking about. And, that\u2019s what we\u2019re for me so.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What\u2019s clear and all of your responses is that, you are deeply committed to mastery, which Rob mentioned, and that you\u2019re, you do the work you do the work times \u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>A lot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Ten. And, that\u2019s why it will make you the master, compared to a lot of copywriters who will not do the work. And they\u2019re not ready to write copy, and copy books, and read books eight times. My final question for you is, what does the future of copyrighting look like to you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>It\u2019s real interesting, because, I spend so much of my time in health, and now finance. And those tend to be the two big niches like, everyone likes to talk about, because that\u2019s where like the most money and most competition is. I know this many niches outside that. But, I find that, it\u2019s kind of niche by niche. You really have to understand how you\u2019re niche operates. And, I\u2019ll give two examples of health and finance. Like, health, I found that, there\u2019s a lot of health companies out there. There\u2019s a lot of like, supplement companies out there, that are like the low eight figure supplement companies that love to hire freelancers, and even maybe high seven figure companies.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>Like, love the work of freelancers, they don\u2019t have a big in-house team, and they\u2019re willing to hire people to come in, you know, just for a project or two. And that\u2019s something that\u2019s very unique, and specific to the health niche. And then, another hand, there\u2019s the financial niche, which nowadays tend to be very in-house focused. Like, very like \u2026 Especially their Agora divisions. Like, big companies, big in-house teams. Who don\u2019t like working with freelance copywriters, unless you\u2019re high level.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>If you\u2019re high level, and by high level, I mean like you really got to know what you\u2019re doing. You really already have to have a reputation, and you have to like, have connections and know people. Unless you\u2019re at that level like, they love their in-house system. The financialist loves like, their in-house teams. And, you know, you move to wherever in Baltimore, Florida, or wherever they\u2019re located. And, like, you worked in their system for two years. And, that\u2019s a very financial niche thing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>But, health thing, they\u2019re just kind of, there are in-house health niche teams, but it\u2019s like \u2026 So, it varies like, as you travel through the different niches that exist. The best thing I always tell people do is, like get as much good information as you can. And, the best way to get good information is, well, listen to stuff like this. And also, go to events where you have like, successful entrepreneurs, successful marketers, successful copywriters. Find out what industry they work in, and just like \u2026 I\u2019m always the digging up information, and I\u2019m always talking to <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/financial-copywriter-ridge-abraham\/\">Ridge Abraham<\/a> who worked at Agora Financial. You know, Ridge is successful financial copywriter.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I\u2019m always asking him some questions about the niche. Always asking him questions about Agora. I\u2019m always asking some questions. Like, I\u2019m always trying to get a better picture of, you know, how does this niche work? You know. What\u2019s going on? What\u2019s the freelance landscape like? What\u2019s in-house landscape like?\u00a0 How do these publishers executives make decisions? Like, I\u2019m always just gathering that info. Right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, you kind of have to do that in whatever niche you\u2019re in. But, I will say, the freelance niche still exists. You can still have a lot of success with it. I think in health, is a good opportunity. Other niches, I\u2019m not too familiar with like the biz op and internet marketing, that\u2019s really, but, I assume \u2026 I know a couple finances that are very successful in that, those type of spaces so. Yeah. Try to get as much good information on whatever niche you\u2019re going to go into as you can.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Lots of opportunity for anyone who\u2019s really willing to put in the work it sounds like.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Oh yeah. I mean, you got to stand out. Because, because I was talking to Parris about this the other day, I was on a phone call with him. He\u2019s like, \u2018Yeah. You know twenty years ago, there were very little copywriters.\u2019 There\u2019s very little, just in terms of value. And, there is even a smaller amount of A list copywriters, like 20 years ago.\u2019 And he\u2019s like, \u2018Now it is. just a ton of copywriters. But, it\u2019s still a very small amount of high level copywriters. There\u2019s a ton of copy, like, there\u2019s thousands of tens of thousands of freelancers and in-house people, that, are not that great. And then, there\u2019s, a smaller amount of people who are at the highest level.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>And, really, the amount of work that, you guys keep saying I do a lot of work, and I do, I do that because, like I said, it\u2019s a natural part of me, and I just feel like that\u2019s what I should be doing. But also, if that\u2019s how you become successful. That\u2019s how make more money and that\u2019s how \u2026 I mean, because the problem nowadays is, you got to convince people like, \u2018Hey. I\u2019m not like these ten thousand other freelancers who, you know, all have the same skill levels. Which, is not that high. They don\u2019t have much of a reputation.\u2019 And, you\u2019ve got to stand out from that. And a big part of that is, well, becoming friends with people, especially through live events, but also knowing what you\u2019re talking about.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>You know, who knows if Parris is ever going to do another round of copy cubs, but Jason, if you ever open up for taking cubs, you\u2019ve sold us. Really. We\u2019re ready to sign.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah. I\u2019ll be a cub.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>You dropped a lot of really going advice.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><\/b> I don\u2019t know man.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah. You got two cubs right here. Right here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>What\u2019s interesting, I will say this really fast, I know it\u2019s the end of the call but. A big reason a lot of top A listers have copy cubs is, not only because they like to teaching, and Parris really does like teaching. But also, out of necessity. You know, a lot of A listers form very deep relationships with clients. Relationships where it\u2019s like, \u2018Hey. I\u2019m essentially going to be running your marketing department. And, I\u2019m going to be getting a cut of the front end and back end. I might be getting some equity deals.\u2019 Like, they set up these big deals, and then, these A listers, its like, \u2018Well, I\u2019m running this market department now. But I need all this copy done. And not just the big promos, but the back end stuff, the traffic drivers.\u2019<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Jason Rutkowski:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>\u2018Like are all this, you know, the Google stuff. All this copy.\u2019 And a lot of these A listers, the reason if I\u2019m in copy cub groups is, out of necessity. Right? They need Copy Cubs to, you know, do all this copy that they\u2019re just not capable of doing, because they don\u2019t have the time, or they just don\u2019t have the desire. Because, they want to focus on the big money stuff, they don\u2019t want to focus on the small money stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>So, I always tell people get somebody, I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s in-house. I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s a mentor. Preferably, in like a one on one relationship, it doesn\u2019t have to be. But, get somebody who knows what you\u2019re talking about, to train you. Hopefully, they\u2019re at a level where they need some smaller copyrighted work done, and maybe could do some smaller stuff for them. But, go for the highest level person you can man.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span>I went for Parris Lampropolous. I was able to get that and I was right. It doesn\u2019t have to be Parris. But, it\u2019s such a valuable thing. And, a lot times, a lot of these top guys need smaller copy work done, and a lot times, if you could give \u2019em, like, \u2018Hey. I\u2019m at least at the level where I can do, you know, these emails, or these articles.\u2019 You know. Could be content, could be traffic driving. Like, maybe you can form relationships, and it\u2019s extremely valuable experience.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah. It\u2019s really good advice. <\/span><span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Kira Hug:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Thank you. This has been very grounding. I feel like, it reminds me of how much more I want to learn and how much more there is to learn. So, thank you for sharing so much advice, actual advice. And then, inspiring us too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><b>Rob Marsh:<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span><\/b>Yeah. Thanks Jason.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s the end of our interview with Jason. Jason\u2019s process for studying and reverse engineering older promotions to learn how to write great copy is something more of us should be doing. To become great, we need to spend more time studying great copy. But not just to copy the words or read through a particular swipe\u2026 to deconstruct what\u2019s going on so we can apply the strategies and tactics to new products and services.<\/p>\n<p>Jason\u2019s practice of creating swipe document with lots of examples of great copy when you come across it. So having a swipe doc with 12 or 15 different examples of strong guarantees that effectively overcome risk aversion or a swipe doc with lots of examples of headlines\u2026 even multiple examples of headlines variations on a particular hook and so on.<\/p>\n<p>By becoming a collector of good copy, you teach yourself how to write it and perhaps more importantly, you have lots of examples to refer to when you need to sit down and produce copy for a client. Taking the time to master this stuff before you need to write it makes you a much better writer.<\/p>\n<p>Hopefully you see why I chose to reshare this interview. And now, what will you do to implement these ideas into your writing practice?<\/p>\n<p>Since recording this episode, Jason moved from copywriting about health and investing to actually doing the investing himself. By applying the ideas he was writing about, he found he could make even more money so he doesn\u2019t do a lot of writing any more. But the ideas he shared are still worth gold.<\/p>\n<p>Before I go, I want to remind you again that <em><a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack\">The Copywriter Accelerator Fast Track<\/a><\/em> program is going away forever. You can still get these business building strategies and ideas to implement in your own business, but only for a few more weeks. After that, this program will never be sold on its own again. Go to <a href=\"http:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack\"><span>thecopywriterclub.com\/fasttrack<\/span><\/a> to learn more.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Becoming a great copywriter is not easy. But there are things you can do that 99% of other writers will not invest the time to accomplish. In the 427th episode [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-4995","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #427: Mastering Copywriting with Jason Rutkowski - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/mastering-copywriting-jason-rutkowski\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #427: Mastering Copywriting with Jason Rutkowski - The Copywriter Club\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Becoming a great copywriter is not easy. 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