{"id":518,"date":"2017-03-28T14:50:15","date_gmt":"2017-03-28T07:50:15","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=518"},"modified":"2020-11-12T22:22:26","modified_gmt":"2020-11-12T15:22:26","slug":"copywriter-josh-garofalo","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-josh-garofalo\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 26: Choosing a Niche with Josh Garofalo"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Freelance copywriter Josh Garofalo\u00a0joins Rob and Kira for the 26th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> to talk about the importance of choosing a niche (and to go deep into it), what resources he uses to stay sharp, how to get noticed at conferences and working with other copywriters on big projects. He also shares the story of how he got into copywriting and his process for working with customers (this episode is worth listening to just for the way Josh talks about process). Check it out&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_5946\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-518-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC026.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC026.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC026.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC026.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=518-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC026.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC026.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/inbound.org\/top?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Inbound<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/inbound.org\/group\/the-pit-landing-page-critiques?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The Pit<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/copyhackers.com\/about-copy-hackers\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Copyhackers<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.microconf.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">MicroConf<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/swaycopy.com\/about-josh-garofalo\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Josh\u2019s Site<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.hubspot.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">HubSpot<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-joel-klettke\/\">Joel Klettke<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.garyvaynerchuk.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Gary V<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/tcc-podcast-17-momoko-price\/\">Momoko Price<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/conversionxl.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">ConversionXL<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0130957011\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0130957011&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=62e9f28ef6437c3ff351e70a402c37f8\"><em>Tested Advertising Methods<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1603866361\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1603866361&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=b1b4ac86ae8a3fa3097aa30affb394e2\"><em>Scientific Advertising<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/006124189X\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=006124189X&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=72c145ff1b6b94be8c02df7ee04232d1\"><em>Influence<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/1118301307\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=1118301307&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=b8ac0c3a24b612edcea08284f8b06765\"><em>You Should Test That<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.briankurtz.me\/eugene-schwartz-is-my-homeboy\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Gene Schwartz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/david ogilvy\">David Ogilvy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 26 as we chat with conversion copywriter, Josh Garofalo about finding a niche and breaking into the SaaS market, the mistakes he\u2019s made as he\u2019s built his business, how he networks with potential clients at conferences and what it\u2019s like to partner with other writers on big projects.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Hey, Josh. Hey, Rob.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Hey, Josh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Hey, thanks for having me. I was actually shocked that you do that intro every single time because it sounds the same every time you do that every single of the episode. That\u2019s pretty incredible.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I think if you go back and listen, you\u2019ll hear us actually flub a couple of the words here and there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s not always perfect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s funny. As we were reading that, I feel like we got to switch it up, Rob. I feel like we have to just change the copy \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Should we do something different?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> \u2026 or read it differently. I don\u2019t know. This is the first time I\u2019m feeling that push to just like surprise people a bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Maybe we need to hire a writer, see what they can come up with.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah, I think it\u2019s a good idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah. Josh, what are you doing for the next hour?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Talking to you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I think a really good place to start is you kind of did our job for us and you posted in the Facebook group and asked the group what they want to know and what questions they\u2019d like to ask you, so thank you for kind of giving us a head start but what I was really interested in is the way that you positioned the post in that group. You said that you\u2019re still newish but somehow, you\u2019ve managed to have as much success, perhaps more than some oldish copywriters despite doing a lot of things wrong (or differently). Let\u2019s start \u2026 I mean there\u2019s a lot packed into that. I want to hear about, let\u2019s just start with what you\u2019ve done wrong and differently.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. I think if you were to sort of take a look at my website especially when I first started, and it probably lasted for the first six months, it was a $100 template from Genesis that looked absolutely horrible. I had, I think, two blog posts on there. I think I\u2019m only up to like three or four blog posts now. I think most people would say that\u2019s not the way to start a business and yet, through that terrible website and two blog posts, I landed two clients and had them on retainer for a year plus. One ended maybe six months ago and the other one, I\u2019m still working with today. Thousands of dollars generated from two blog posts in a Genesis website.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t think that really tells the whole story because I think what I was doing differently is I was hanging out in communities and looking for quicker wins which for me was necessary because my first goal starting out in this business was to amass enough savings that, should I want to take a step back and refocus on my business or should things change and I want to pivot a little bit, I have that cash sitting there that I can draw from and make strategic decisions.<\/p>\n<p>My first goal was quick wins and the way I saw that happening was hanging out in communities where my target market hung out and copywriters who have been at this far longer than I had, where they also hung out and then just going over the top and adding value which, Kira, I don\u2019t know how much time you are spending at inbound but I know that\u2019s where I first became familiar with Rob. He can probably attest to, especially like in The Pit where we were doing free landing page critiques. Most of the critiques were quite shallow and short and sometimes, just bad advice. I was offering multipage long critiques that most copywriters would have charged for. That\u2019s sort of where I kicked off my career.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s interesting. In The Pit, if I went in and saw somebody had posted a landing page for a review, if Josh had gotten there before me, I almost never had anything to add because it covered everything. I was always looking to get there before Josh and maybe Joel because they would cover everything and the feedback was so good. Josh, I want to back up a little bit because even back before you became a writer, you studied things like human psychology. I believe you worked in marketing as a marketing director before you shifted into copywriting. How did that base of knowledge and learning inform what you do as a writer today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> It definitely does. For example, my choosing a niche in SaaS wasn\u2019t an accident. It was a well calculated move and I can sort of work my way up to that. In university, I studied psychology, did a lot of cognitive and social psychology, worked in gambling labs and weird, neuro conditions and things like that. I worked in physiology labs where they actually did research on like astronauts and the effects of space on human beings which was pretty cool. I was actually planning on going to med school but sort of a last minute decision, I overheard a conversation about a new master\u2019s program at the university I was at that focused on like digital business and user experience. Around that same time, the startup scene was really picking up in town and I really want to get involved with that.<\/p>\n<p>I sort of saw this master\u2019s program even if it was a terrible program \u2026 It wasn\u2019t the best at the time because it was pretty new. I saw it as a way to reinvent myself at least on paper. I could, all of a sudden, turn my history in the lab and psychology into being this perfect fit for a tech company whether it\u2019s in marketing or copywriting or something related to that. That worked. I got hired right out of my master\u2019s program into a B2B SaaS company. I went through all the typical startup things. I went through like incubators and accelerators. I spent 10 weeks in New York hustling while we were an accelerator there. We raised venture capital money. It was through my work there that I learned there is actually something called copywriting and like pretty much everyone that\u2019s on the podcast, once I started to learn about that, Joanna Wiebe came up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>It always does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Yeah. She came up and I got really interested in what she was doing there. I realized that I actually didn\u2019t really like marketing in general but I really loved it when I had to write copy for the company. Then, it was through Joanna that I saw that there\u2019s a career in this and a few fateful happenings that sort of helped me launch my business and that\u2019s when I quit my job, is when I had two clients on retainer and chose my niche as SaaS for obvious reasons. I had a lot of experience in it. I don\u2019t know if you guys want to go into it but I mean, there\u2019s tons of reasons like SaaS in particular was attractive to me beyond my experience and my history.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I do but first, I feel like there\u2019s this fuzzy part in the timeline between when you landed your first retainer clients and you were working at the job. Can you connect those dots for us?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>As I mentioned, I came across Copy Hackers, Joanna\u2019s site. She was doing like this tiny, insignificant competition on her site where the best comment on this post about pages won a free ticket to Microconf in Las Vegas where she was going to be speaking. I\u2019ve been reading her stuff and I was starting to read the classics of copywriting and all that and I took a shot at it, added some humor in, sort of keeping my reader in mind which was Joanna who has a sense of humor especially in her writing and she liked it. She gave me that ticket to Microconf. I went there. I was totally star struck when I met her, which to me sort of reaffirm that I\u2019m in the right place because like to copywriters, she\u2019s a celebrity but to everyone else, she\u2019s just somebody, right? I was like so shocked when she sat behind me. I didn\u2019t even want to turn around and introduce myself but I finally worked up the guts.<\/p>\n<p>Then, I e-mailed her and I thanked her. I said, \u201cYou know, what should I do next?\u201d She didn\u2019t really know what I should do next but she said, \u201cYou got to do something. Right now, you\u2019re hungry. The fire\u2019s burning. If you just let this pass, it\u2019s going to be like everybody else where you let the grass grow under your feet.\u201d I think that was her exact words. \u201cAnd you\u2019ll totally forget about this.\u201d I did. I think it was the next day I started a website, not really selling services because I was employed and not really thinking about doing this myself. It was just going to be a blog about conversion copywriting for SaaS companies. That\u2019s where I wrote a couple of posts.<\/p>\n<p>I got inquiries from those posts and because I had a job and I\u2019m pretty risk averse, I wasn\u2019t going to leave unless it looked like as close to a sure thing as it can be when you\u2019re starting a business. I basically gave the ultimatum like this is what I need to make. We\u2019ve got to be on an ongoing retainer agreement and both of them agreed. Actually, the one client, I just threw a price out. I didn\u2019t even know if it was like reasonable or not and he just said yes. That felt like a win but also a loss like where I could have asked for more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Josh, other than going to that small conference where you\u2019re surrounded by guys building SaaS businesses, is there another reason you focused so heavily on tech and SaaS or did you just sort of fall into that because that\u2019s what you\u2019d been doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>It\u2019s a combination. I think that\u2019s where I had the biggest head start but then, I\u2019m not very romantic when it comes to business. I\u2019m very practical, so before I started my business, I took a look at the general freelance and freelance copywriter market and I saw there\u2019s so many copywriters out there. Most of them are struggling and most of them don\u2019t choose a niche. When you look at any industry in business, you have your giants who kind of own the market and then you have your incumbents who choose a little problem that seems insignificant or boring to the big players and you just dig deep into that and you serve that niche better than any generalist ever could. That was going to be my strategy.<\/p>\n<p>Then, SaaS was the obvious choice for me. This is more of a response to a lot of people who say choosing a niche is boring. A lot of people will say that and I think people on the podcast have said that too. I don\u2019t agree because \u2026 I don\u2019t know. If you\u2019ve gone to university, for example, and you\u2019re first year and you see what your professors focus on, it is mind boggling. They seem like they must be the most odd and boring people ever but what you realize is your psychology prof can\u2019t possibly be a master of the whole brain. There\u2019s way too much information. Information is only accelerating so they choose a piece of it and they actually are really fired up about the piece that they own because they\u2019re masters of it and they add to it in a meaningful way. I don\u2019t see choosing a niche as boring.<\/p>\n<p>Then, for SaaS specifically, SaaS is just a way to deliver business services. We\u2019re always going to have to deliver business services. I can definitely grow with that niche. The niche itself is young. There\u2019s tons of million and a few billion dollar companies but it\u2019s tiny compared to where it\u2019s going to go. When you look at the exciting technology that everyone\u2019s getting fired up about like virtual reality, artificial intelligence, machine learning, internet of things, that\u2019s all going to find its way into SaaS and SaaS-like industries, so I see myself getting my hands dirty in all of those exciting areas down the road. If people are right and that we should be scared of machines and machine learning and artificial intelligence, I hope I\u2019m the person that\u2019s writing copy to sell it and not the person being displaced by it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Just to follow up on that, as I look at your homepage, Josh, it\u2019s really clear you\u2019ve done a great job of saying, \u201cHey, if it\u2019s SaaS copywriting you need, that\u2019s what I offer.\u201d I\u2019m assuming that\u2019s completely intentional because the advice that you\u2019ve given in the Facebook group, there\u2019s absolutely no question that any of your clients would come to you and say, \u201cDo you do blog post about health marketing or whatever,\u201d because you\u2019re just laser focused.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Yeah. It\u2019s actually kind of funny because I do still get the odd inquiry from someone who isn\u2019t in SaaS. I think it\u2019s simply because I\u2019ve shown that I know how to at least choose something and focus on it and execute on it well. Recently, I wrote some copy for a real estate developer who\u2019s selling like million dollar homes which was completely outside my area of expertise but I\u2019d like to take the odd project on like that because it does keep things fresh. You never know you might learn something writing for another market that you can apply to your main market. It does still happen from time to time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I find like on my website, I need to get more clear about my niche because I\u2019ve only really had the realization and the focus on it recently but I do sort of feel frustrated when I have inquiries from people that are like way outside of my niche. I used to take those jobs too and I\u2019ve just realized it doesn\u2019t work well for me. I really do need to specialize and it just has to do with my level of confidence going into a project when I know I can deliver versus, \u201cHey, this is something new. I\u2019m actually not sure if I can deliver what you want.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think for me, I\u2019ve learned that just communicating what you need and what you want in your website does help and go a long way, like you said with your website. I think all of us listening can kind of look at our websites and audit it just to see if that\u2019s very clear. Even if you know what your niche is, maybe other people don\u2019t know what it is. What would you say to the copywriters that are listening? You mentioned you\u2019ve seen so many of them struggling and that\u2019s why you really wanted to come in strong with a niche and a focus. What would you say to the ones that are struggling and they\u2019re like, \u201cCool. I know I need one. You\u2019re telling me I need one but I don\u2019t know what that is. I don\u2019t even know how to figure out where to go or how to get started and figure this process out\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> The first thing, and it\u2019s way beyond the scope of a podcast, is obviously, if you\u2019re trying to be a copywriter and you\u2019re not very good at writing, no strategy or a niche is going to save you. You have to actually be good at writing but assuming that\u2019s out of the way and you\u2019re a struggling copywriter who is actually good at writing and good at writing copy, it\u2019s got to be a combination of \u2026 There\u2019s got to be a market for it, so enough people that would benefit from a copywriter, looking for a copywriter. The market\u2019s got to be willing to pay well for that. The story doesn\u2019t have to be intentional but you have to be able to tell some sort of story about where you\u2019ve come from that positions you as someone who didn\u2019t just choose a niche out of thin air but who, where the niche kind of chose you.<\/p>\n<p>When I was going through my undergrad and even when I joined that B2B SaaS startup, I wasn\u2019t thinking one day, I\u2019m going to be a freelance copywriter. Right now, I\u2019m just trying to connect these dots so that I\u2019m the perfect person for it. Instead, what I did is I decided I want to be a freelance copywriter at the end. I chose SaaS and then, I looked back at my history and decided how could I tell the story of my history to make me seem like someone who should be doing this.<\/p>\n<p>If I were doing something else like if I\u2019d gone to med school and I had to write an essay about my history, I would have found a way to talk about my past in a way that would position me to be a great medical doctor one day. I think if you\u2019re to go to my about page, you\u2019d sort of see that, the events that I chose to speak about weren\u2019t \u2026 it\u2019s not my entire history but it\u2019s the things that I was able to look back on and say, \u201cYou know what, this kind of led to where I\u2019m at today and gives me some credibility.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Another thing that I love about your website, Josh, is something that you have in common with Joel Klettke who we talked to a couple of episodes ago, and that\u2019s your process page. I think it\u2019s really impressive. You guys are sort of among the minority, I think, where you really lay out step-by-step what exactly happens at every part of the project including when you expect to be paid. Talk to us a little bit about that process and how clients react to that. Am I right that this actually helps you close more projects in just being really upfront about how it all works?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. Definitely, it helps close projects. I can\u2019t speak for Joel but I know for me, I do adjust to the client and the project. Sometimes, my process doesn\u2019t go exactly as it\u2019s laid out on the page. That\u2019s sort of the ideal scenario but just having a process page that shows that I actually do have a process, I\u2019m not just going to take your money and then send you the odd e-mail and then, we\u2019ll see when this gets done and how I get paid because that\u2019s how a lot of freelancers work.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s just refreshing to anyone who\u2019s been looking at other copywriters. It sort of de-risks it a little bit and they feel like they\u2019re going to be working with a professional who\u2019s going to do what he said he\u2019s going to do, when he said he was going to do it, that\u2019s a huge selling point in freelancing. Freelancing in general and especially among copywriters, is just sort of poor business acumen. It\u2019s too common. If you can show you\u2019re not going to do that, it\u2019s a huge plus.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Josh, can you walk us through \u2026 I mean people can check out your process page but can you walk us through your process because I\u2019m sure there\u2019s something unique? I believe you mentioned even sharing an outline with your clients which I think not a lot of copywriters do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>I\u2019ll go through the whole process but I\u2019ll first sort of address the whole outline thing. The reason that I do that is I don\u2019t want to write a first draft of copy where I\u2019ve agonized over headlines and sub headlines and body copy and structure and things like that only to the give to the client and say, \u201cYou know what, like this completely misses the mark. There\u2019s no way this is going to work.\u201d Then, I have to rethink everything about the page. I use the outline as a quick checkpoint. If I\u2019m going to be writing a homepage, for example, the headlines won\u2019t be final. I will not spend a ton of time on that but the ideas will be there. I\u2019ll show like, in the above the fold section, these are some of the points I want to make and why. I\u2019ll sort of leave a little comment in the Google Doc as to why I want to say that.<\/p>\n<p>Then, I\u2019ll work my way down the page that way and it doesn\u2019t take me very long once I know what I want to say. Then, once they say, \u201cYou know what, this makes sense. This is a good direction for the page. We can move forward with this,\u201d and when I get to that first draft, they don\u2019t get to go back and say, \u201cYou know what, I don\u2019t really like the messaging above the fold. I think we need to say this.\u201d I\u2019ll point to the outline and say, That\u2019s not going to happen. You\u2019ve already signed off on the ideas. We can talk about word choices at this point but we\u2019re not going back and re-imagining what we\u2019re going to say. We can talk about how we\u2019re going to say it.\u201d I use it as a checkpoint, if that makes sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I just am curious to hear how long that typically takes you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> An outline?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, the outline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>It doesn\u2019t take me long at all. I\u2019d say maybe an hour or two max.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That doesn\u2019t include the research.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> No, definitely not the research. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>You\u2019re spending some time trying to learn about the project first, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Exactly, yeah. I\u2019ll do the research and then, when I do the outline, it maybe adds an hour or an hour or two. Then, if I were to just go right to the first draft, but it saves me time if there\u2019s any back and forth about the what. To me, that\u2019s way worth it because I would hate to have to go back and rewrite a page.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That seems like a good idea.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. No, it does. I want to start doing that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. It doesn\u2019t take long really and make it clear that you\u2019re not giving them final copy here. Don\u2019t critic the way I\u2019m saying things, just the ideas but yeah, if you want, I can sort of walk through the whole process from inquiry to \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> payment if you\u2019d like. Yeah. In an ideal world, the way it works is I would get an inquiry from my website through the form, an e-mail or I\u2019ll get a referral which happens more often. The referrals are better when you\u2019re in a niche but I won\u2019t go into that right now. I\u2019ll get that inquiry and my first e-mail which definitely puts some clients off but to me, I think it works is I will immediately ask things like, what is your approximate budget? I\u2019ll put that in the context of I want to make sure we\u2019re talking about a project that I can actually execute on, like we\u2019re not in a dreamland where you have infinite dollars to give me, so we have to come up with a practical solution. I talk about timelines and deadlines. If they want this copy tomorrow and I\u2019m busy, let\u2019s just not even get on the phone and waste an hour. Let\u2019s just figure that out right now that we\u2019re not going to work. Then, I\u2019ll ask for a little bit of information about the project and their company.<\/p>\n<p>If everything checks out, we\u2019ll hop on a quick call which I don\u2019t charge for. I think some copywriters do and that seems like a pretty decent idea, so I might consider that. There, I\u2019ll dig a little bit deeper. I\u2019ll talk about what kind of data they have available to me like Google Analytics or what kind of resources, whether they\u2019ve done like customer surveys, for example, or they have a bunch of testimonials or sales notes that I can dig into, sort of their expectations of the project because if their expectations are unrealistic, we can knock that off right away rather than at the end of the project.<\/p>\n<p>Then, we\u2019ll talk timelines and the deposit and next steps. That is the next step. I\u2019ll send a quick proposal usually via PDF. It is quick. I don\u2019t waste a ton of time, so if we don\u2019t get past the proposal stage, I\u2019m not going to be upset. I\u2019ll ask, I\u2019ll demand 50% in order to save my next available date. That\u2019s non-negotiable. The only thing I change there is if a project is under 2,000, then I\u2019ll ask for 100% before we get started. I\u2019ve had no pushback on that whatsoever.<\/p>\n<p>The due date comes, I\u2019ll usually send some, like a customer survey and a client survey where I\u2019ll learn a little bit about their company and their position and then, the customer survey which is sort of similar to what everyone\u2019s talked about so far on your podcast which is more of a jobs to be done type survey, so figuring out their pain points, what brought them to look for a solution, what they can do better now that they have your solution, et cetera, et cetera. Then, I\u2019ll do the messaging mining which has been spoken about by, again, like pretty much everybody. I think every good copywriter does it, so I won\u2019t go into detail on that but sort of pulling words and phrases from the customer.<\/p>\n<p>Then, it\u2019s at outline phase that I spoke about. Once I get signed off on that, it\u2019s a first draft where I do include headlines and it\u2019s in a low fidelity mock-up, usually in Google Docs which is really just like tables and headlines and sub headlines and stuff like that. It\u2019s not colored or pixel perfect. I\u2019m not focusing on typography.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>It\u2019s not just the document. You are doing some layout to sort of show what the copy might look like once it is laid out, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. Any decent designer would be able to look at this and know what I had envisioned but it\u2019s not so final that a good designer would feel constrained like they\u2019re just now coloring it in. It shows where the messaging hierarchy and things like that and some rough ideas of how different sections could be laid out or what kind of images you might want to include along with the text but it\u2019s by no means like a replacement for a good designer. Then, we\u2019ll do usually one or two rounds of revisions. Once that\u2019s done, I send my invoice for the final 50%. Then, usually, a few months down the road, I\u2019ll follow up and see how things have done, get a testimonial and if they\u2019re willing to share statistics, I\u2019ll get those statistics. That makes for a good case study.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Josh, I want to ask a couple questions that sort of come off of what you\u2019re talking about. When you start out like talking about, asking for a project budget, what is the typical project size that you take on? You mentioned 100% under $2,000, so I\u2019m assuming that there\u2019s not very many of those that come along but what\u2019s your typical project?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. I would say it\u2019s typically between 2,500 US and it goes up to maybe nine or 10,000 US, is about as much as I would invoice at one time. Some of the long term clients I\u2019ve had, I\u2019ve definitely billed more than that over time but in terms of just one set project, that\u2019s typically where they\u2019re falling right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>You also mentioned your quick proposal. You want to keep that fast. Is that just a single page? What do you include in your proposal?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> It\u2019s a bit of a multipage document but it\u2019s very much like plug and play like I go in there, I\u2019ll change obviously the client\u2019s name and then where I scope out the project, that\u2019s obviously going to be a little bit different but the way it\u2019s laid out is already set up for me, then everything about the process that we\u2019re going to go through when we work on this project, certain deadlines, certain conditions that I have like with payment and turnaround times like they can\u2019t take three weeks to get back to me on a page. They have about three business days usually to give me revisions. A lot of that stuff just remains the same throughout my project. I literally don\u2019t spend more than 20 or 30 minutes on a proposal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Josh, I have a couple more questions about rates because that\u2019s always the fun thing to talk about. You mentioned you may charge 9,000, $10,000. What type of project would that be for?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>That would usually be for a much larger project like the HubSpots and like the InsightSquareds and stuff like that. The reason that you\u2019d price it that high is for one, there\u2019s usually a decent amount of work to be done. There\u2019s always a lot of research to go through. The nature of these businesses being so large and having so many stakeholders, you\u2019re going to spend more time on revisions. It\u2019s unavoidable. There\u2019s just more people that need to say yes to everything. That gets priced in there. At the same time, these rates are unreasonable for a much smaller business who really values copywriting, has maybe benefited from it in the past. They won\u2019t blink at those prices either.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right. I know we want to talk about HubSpots soon as well. When you have these initial conversations, kind of just like vetting potential clients, are you dropping the number in there if you have a rough idea of what they want and you know it\u2019s approximately $5,000? Are you sharing that on the call with them to feel it out or do you just kind of wait until you send that proposal?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Usually before the call, I would have an idea of the budget I\u2019ll be working with. Then, I wouldn\u2019t get into specifics on the call simply because, and this is probably common for a lot of copywriters, I think better when I have time and I\u2019m writing versus when I\u2019m live and on a call or on a podcast. I like to wait until after the call where I can sort of regroup, think about all, everything that we spoke about and then lay it out nicely in the proposal and show them everything that goes into that price which I know I wouldn\u2019t communicate as clearly if I did that on a call. Some people who are a little bit more with the talking could probably just cover that off in a call, no problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Let\u2019s talk about HubSpot. You mentioned, and I know Kira wants to ask about this as well, I\u2019m curious about how you and Joel went about landing that project but more than that, I\u2019m actually curious how you and Joel worked together and what the process was there in order to make the client happy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>That was definitely Joel. He landed the project and then, he brought me in because it was a pretty big project and Joel, being Joel, already had a lot on his plate. Rather than say no or rush a major project like that, he brought me in and we split it 50\/50. Then, in terms of how we worked on it, we spent a lot of time in Slack with the HubSpot people that we were working with. It\u2019s kind of funny because Joel and I, when we work individually work similarly probably because he showed me a lot of what he does. We both sort of did our own thing. We had our own pages that we were responsible for and then we would jump in and we edit each other\u2019s work in the Google Docs and then, throw it in the wireframes. Basically, the work process that I told you about for myself, it was just duplicated. It wasn\u2019t too much different aside from the fact that we spent a lot of time in Slack with the HubSpot team.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It sounds like it went really well. I\u2019ve been collaborating with other copywriters recently. I\u2019m always curious to hear how other people do it. Do you have any tips though to help copywriters that may have not collaborated before, how they can do it for the first time with ease instead of frustration because people do have really different styles? I know. It sounds like you and Joel have a similar style though.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know because I wouldn\u2019t be speaking from experience. The only copywriter I\u2019ve ever collaborated with on a project is Joel and our styles are very similar. If our styles were completely just because of the way I am, I actually don\u2019t know that I would even do it because I like working by myself. Working with Joel is like duplicating myself. It\u2019s like two of me but to work with someone who\u2019s much different than me, I don\u2019t think I would enjoy it very much unless they were in a completely different discipline like I was the copywriter and they were like the data person or the designer or something like that. I could make some things up but I have no experience with that whatsoever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>No. I mean that makes sense. It\u2019s just worth considering if, before jumping into a project with someone, if they do have a similar style or not and if that will work for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Definitely. Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Kira, you mentioned that you\u2019ve been collaborating with other writers lately on several projects. Maybe it\u2019s the kind of thing, it\u2019s this debate between do we work as freelance copywriters or are we creating sort of an agency model where you become a contact person and you\u2019re relying on other writers to help create some of the work. It really is almost two different ways of getting a lot of work done.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Can I shift gears again? I noticed last month, you went to a conference and you\u2019re doing some pretty interesting stuff on Twitter to make connections. It immediately stood out to me. I\u2019m an introvert. I think you probably are as well. The typical experience for me at a conference if I don\u2019t know anybody is I kind of stand off to the sides and hope that I can figure out some way to talk to somebody, right? You were doing something different that I thought, \u201cWow, that\u2019s a great idea and I\u2019m totally going to do that.\u201d Tell us about how you reach out to people and try to meet new clients.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>The common advice that they always like to give you for an introvert that goes to conference is to get over it and realize the other person wants to talk to you just as much as you want to talk to them. You\u2019ll be doing them a favor by going up to them but if you\u2019re an introvert, that doesn\u2019t make things any easier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> It doesn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It doesn\u2019t matter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>It doesn\u2019t work. You still just, like keep looking at [crosstalk 00:29:27]-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay. Clearly, an extrovert made that rule.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah. It\u2019s hard enough just to get to the conference sometimes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Exactly. The extroverts make all the rules. I\u2019m never going to be that person that goes up to people and is totally comfortable doing that but most conferences tend to have some sort of online components. This one had a sort of like a chat that was specific to the conference and hash tags obviously and same with Microconf where I met Joanna. They had a messenger thing there. That\u2019s where I would talk to people.<\/p>\n<p>Anyways, this conference that Rob\u2019s talking about in San Francisco is like the biggest SaaS conference. There\u2019s like 10,000 people there. It\u2019s incredibly intimidating and sort of my way of reaching out and adding value was to go online onto their little chat there and say if anyone has a webpage or a website that they want me to look at, I\u2019m doing that for free all conference long. Just send me a link. Then, I started to follow up that message with you have venture capitalists and potential customers looking at your website right now while you demo it. There\u2019s probably some quick fixes that we can make right now to make those meetings go a little bit better.<\/p>\n<p>I did have some success with that. I did a few critiques, either I did one on my website and I did others just sort of live sitting there with them. That\u2019s the big ice breaker because Rob, I\u2019m sure you know as an introvert, it\u2019s not that you hate talking to someone. If you\u2019re one-on-one with someone and you have a common interest, it\u2019s not a problem. It\u2019s that initial ice breaking that\u2019s a pain.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Once they come to me and they\u2019re asking me questions and they\u2019re interested in me, it\u2019s super easy to kick things off that way. That was my strategy there, same with trying to meet people to go out for dinner. I just throw it up on there and be like, \u201cHey, if you want to meet up for coffee or dinner, I\u2019m going to go to this place at this time. We can talk coffee or whatever, completely off the clock. It\u2019s just free. I\u2019m just trying to meet people.\u201d Then, people are pretty receptive to free and valuable things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It\u2019s more like if you\u2019re an introvert, you have to give people a reason to come up to you, so you don\u2019t have to go up to them. You can allow them to do the work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. When people are coming to you to get something from you that\u2019s valuable and that you know a lot about it, it completely removes all the nerves for me. Even at the odd times someone will come up to me just to say hi because they\u2019re braver than I am and sometimes, that goes well and sometimes it doesn\u2019t but when they come to you for a specific purpose, it\u2019s exactly what we\u2019re going to talk about. I\u2019m going to be leaving the conversation and it just makes everything like a million times easier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay. It kind of reminds me, I have this silver plated retainer necklace that I wear to networking events, I haven\u2019t recently, because this retainer will attract people from across the room and then, they\u2019d want to come over to me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Wait. Wait, wait, wait. It\u2019s like a retainer like braces?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, like a \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>It\u2019s silver plated. It\u2019s not my retainer but the designer\u2019s retainer and so, whenever I wore that to networking event, people would come over to me and they were like, \u201cIs that your retainer?\u201d Now, I didn\u2019t have to go over to other people. It made the whole event. I know I was thinking about the same thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>This is not the kind of-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>[crosstalk 00:32:35] another way we\u2019re doing it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Not the kind of retainer that I was expecting to talk about today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>No, right. The other retainer. Okay. My actual question for you, Josh, it sounds like a lot of what you\u2019re saying and a lot of what we\u2019ve seen in the club from you is just that you give so much, like the viewer gets much value and you were helping people. It sounds like that\u2019s the way that you\u2019ve really built your business. That\u2019s a way that you\u2019re connecting at these events. I guess, what would you say to new copywriters that want to use that tactic as well? I mean I hate to call it tactic because I know you\u2019re helping people but what\u2019s the right way to do it where you feel like you\u2019re not giving too much and there\u2019s no return? Do you just have to give and give and give and not think about the return? Maybe this is like Gary V\u2019s style, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. Maybe it is a little bit about Gary V\u2019s style but yeah, sometimes, it\u2019s just because I\u2019m drawn to a place and I enjoy contributing, so definitely early in Inbound, I knew that customers were there but I genuinely enjoyed going on there and talking about this stuff and people liking what I wrote. Same with the Facebook group you guys have, I don\u2019t have a course right now for copywriters and it\u2019s all copywriters, so I\u2019m not going to be getting a bunch of customers through you guys but I enjoy being there. In other times, it\u2019s intentional like at the conference, for example, I was giving with the intention of people seeing what I do for free and then thinking what could this guy do for me if only I paid him his rates, right? It\u2019s a combination of the two.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s just, I think lacking in freelancing in general is just general business sense. They\u2019re coming at this as like, \u201cThis is what I like to do now. Pay me for it.\u201d They\u2019re not thinking about it the way every other business has to think about it which is finding a market, adding value, choosing a niche, competing with others. I think that\u2019s what\u2019s missing. I think there\u2019s so many talented copywriters that are struggling to make money simply because they don\u2019t understand the business side of it. That\u2019s the way I see it. It\u2019s just it\u2019s the business side of it. It\u2019s building relationships.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What I\u2019ve noticed is by you showing up consistently and speaking about your niche and what you do and building this credibility, I know I\u2019ve seen people say, \u201cHey, Josh. I\u2019ve got some work for you.\u201d I did it myself. Your name popped into my head when I was talking to this other client. I was like, \u201cJosh would be perfect for this.\u201d I don\u2019t even know if you would but because you keep showing up, I thought of you. I\u2019m only saying that because if you were in the club or another group on Facebook or wherever, if you show up consistently, people will start sending you work. It just happens.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. I will add to that and say it\u2019s a combination of showing up in a group like that but again, going back to choosing a niche, I think that\u2019s also so huge because if you have someone coming to you for something that isn\u2019t SaaS, there\u2019s probably a hundred generalist copywriters competing for that referral when it comes to you but if someone comes to you with a SaaS project, there\u2019s probably not that many. It\u2019s probably like, what, me, Momoko. I think she likes to focus on SaaS. I can\u2019t remember his name. He\u2019s also on show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Rob Marsh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Rob Marsh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Sorry. No, there are definitely a few that we\u2019ve had on the show. Joel, I think, does a lot of tech and SaaS type stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Not even that many that explicitly say it like I am SaaS. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>I\u2019m not competing with that many people. I get referrals from people who I\u2019ve never even worked with like we\u2019ve never worked together, Kira, and same with the other person on the group that sent someone. I\u2019ve actually never even spoken to that person before but it\u2019s easier to be top of mind when you\u2019ve got a niche. Showing up and standing for something, I think, is a great recipe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>In some ways, it\u2019s not even just showing up because you\u2019re not in the groups giving that, \u201cHey, you go girl,\u201d kind of advice, right? You\u2019re laying out \u2026 Some of the advice may actually be really hard for some people to hear where you\u2019ve been pretty critical about how people position themselves or how they talk about their services on their website, that kind of a thing. You don\u2019t sugarcoat it but it\u2019s incredibly valuable advice. If somebody\u2019s going to take it and do something along the lines of what you\u2019re suggesting, the chances of them finding success are greater for sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> I would just ask a generalist copywriter, if you\u2019re struggling \u2026 I mean if you\u2019re making the kind of money you want to make and you\u2019re a generalist, then my advice doesn\u2019t really matter but if you\u2019re a generalist and you\u2019re not making the kind of money you want to make, just be honest with yourself. Pull your website up. Pull like three or four other websites up of other generalist copywriters that are around your level that you see like in a Facebook group like this one and compare sites.<\/p>\n<p>I think you\u2019ll see that it would be extremely hard as a client to choose one over the other. They all say very similar things and they have similar style logos and things like that whereas if you choose a niche or if you\u2019re like a kingpin in copywriting and you\u2019ve written for the major brands across different niches, that\u2019s different but if you have a niche like SaaS and you were to come to my website and your SaaS company put my website up against all the generalist copywriters, it becomes much easier to choose somebody and to even pay a premium to get that person.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Man, I feel like I have to rewrite all my copy now on my website. Thanks, Josh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>I don\u2019t think I was talking to you. I feel like you do a pretty good job of it but \u2026 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I don\u2019t spell out my niche at all like, \u201cHey, this is what I do.\u201d Anyway, we don\u2019t have to talk about me but-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>It\u2019s scary though, isn\u2019t it? It\u2019s kind of scary to choose a niche. I think that\u2019s what stops a lot of people from doing it because it\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019m already struggling and now, if I eliminate 90% of the market, I\u2019m definitely going to go broke.\u201d It just doesn\u2019t really work that way in business in general especially in freelance copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>It might take time too like you just knew and for me at least, it\u2019s taken a while to kind of dabble and figure out what I like and figure out what I feel like I\u2019m good at. I think it\u2019s okay to take your time figuring it out too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Yeah, for sure. Definitely, it\u2019s okay to work towards a niche but it\u2019s just once you do it, things get easier. Your portfolio gets stronger, faster because every single project speaks directly to the client who\u2019s looking at your website. It\u2019s just everything gets easier, in my opinion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Josh, you mentioned somewhere that you are an avid learner and you emphasized that. Maybe it was on your website. I think you embody that when you show up online. How do you keep your edge? Are you participating in different trainings? How do you continue to kind of advance?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>In some ways, I think I\u2019m slacking on that a little bit because as I mentioned earlier, I focus on things to the detriment of everything else. Since I\u2019ve started, my focus has been short term wins, amass a certain amount of money so that I feel like I\u2019ll never have to go and get a job in order to make ends meet. I\u2019ll always have that buffer to make changes but I\u2019ve been doing that for a long time now and I\u2019m getting closer to that dollar amount. Now, I\u2019m starting to look at other ways to maintain my edge, as you said. Courses would be great. I haven\u2019t taken any courses but if I were, I\u2019d definitely be looking at Copy Hackers and ConversionXL. They\u2019ve definitely put some things out where I look at and was like, \u201cOh, I wish I had done that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, outside of that, it\u2019s reading the classics often more than once and then just staying interested in my industry which again, is a benefit of choosing a niche because I only focus on SaaS. I can keep up on sort of all the industry news and the thought leaders which would be impossible if I focused on five different niches and then, yeah, just staying nimble by reading things that are completely unrelated to copy whether that\u2019s cosmology or psychology or anthropology or fiction, sci-fi, just staying interested, engaged and doing lots of work which I think gets under-emphasized a little bit, is everyone wants to sort of take the course that\u2019s going to fix them whereas I think there\u2019s a lot to be learned by just doing a lot of projects and taking note of how things go and what goes well, and what doesn\u2019t go well and learning from that in the trenches which has sort of been my priority.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You may have just answered this question at least in part, Josh, but I\u2019m curious, if somebody came to you and said, \u201cHey, I want to do exactly what you\u2019re doing. I want to be a conversion copywriter. I want to be working for these really cool tech businesses. I don\u2019t have any experience right now. Give me three things that I should be doing so that I can be, next year or the year after, I can be where you are today.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>I\u2019ll probably point them to the same books that pretty much every copywriter would point them to, like your <em>Tested Advertising Methods<\/em>, <em>Scientific Advertising<\/em>, <em>Influence<\/em>, some newer ones. I mean Joanna\u2019s \u2026 All of her books are amazing. I\u2019ve read all those and they\u2019re very timely. Actually, I have some books at my desk here so you should test that, anything from Schwartz and Ogilvy. Then, I would ask them to assess whether or not they\u2019re actually the right person for tech. What I\u2019m hoping is that people don\u2019t listen to this podcast and think that, \u201cI need to become a SaaS copywriter. That\u2019s the key.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s what I think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I think you\u2019re right though because any niche can be profitable. You could write for medical. You could right for health and wellness. You could basically do anything, right? It\u2019s not the niche. It\u2019s niching itself, is what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Exactly, that\u2019s right. There\u2019s a copywriter, there\u2019s multiple copywriters who focus on the pet industry and some who are even thinking like, \u201cI need to get deeper than that and focus more on like pet food or pet accessories.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Yeah. The goal is to niche and just be the obvious choice for a certain someone. That\u2019s what I\u2019d do there. Then, the third thing would be to get involved in groups where your ideal customer hangs out, even better if they\u2019re asking questions about their messaging or how to increase sales or how to write e-mails and things like that. Then, start solving their problems the best you can for free and share what you did with them.<\/p>\n<p>Even better, get on a call with them and tell them what you did and why you made the choices that you did. Then, to take it to the next step, I would say, \u201cThis is better than what you have right now but it\u2019s not as good as it could be because if we actually work together, I would have access to these resources and this data and I would have way more time than what I have for a free project. Then, this is what I would actually be able to deliver for you and why it would be so much better in return. It will probably be more like X, Y, Z if we work together.\u201d Trying to turn an honest question into a project would definitely be my advice to a new copywriter versus just writing spec ads for random things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Sounds great, Josh. Where can we find you if we want to stalk you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>You can visit me at swaycopy.com. Something I was thinking of doing too is I\u2019m going to \u2026 I don\u2019t have it yet but I\u2019m going to have a landing page at swaycopy.com\/tcc and what I\u2019m probably just going to say is if you want to hook up and chat on Skype or something like that for 15, 30 minutes on a Friday afternoon, I\u2019m thinking I\u2019m just going to start providing us a lot of time where I talk to people because freelancers get lonely. I think this would be a nice way to meet other people. Whether you\u2019re new and you sort of want to pick my brain for 15 to 30 minutes or if you\u2019ve been at this for a while and you want to impart your wisdom on me, I think it would just be fun to talk to some people live. I\u2019ll throw that up and give people a way to contact me there. I\u2019m on Twitter but hardly ever and LinkedIn and obviously in this group.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>We can talk to you about anything for 15 minutes?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh:<\/strong> Copy and business related, I think, would be ideal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, just double checking. Also, we\u2019ll use this as a promo opportunity for our Facebook group because Josh is active in there as of right now. He does provide excellent advice and responses to your questions if you tag him, so you can jump in there and ask Josh lots of questions. I\u2019m always impressed with his responses. Anyway, thank you, Josh, for giving us your time today and being a part of the community.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, we appreciate it, Josh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Josh: <\/strong>Thanks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Freelance copywriter Josh Garofalo\u00a0joins Rob and Kira for the 26th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about the importance of choosing a niche (and to go deep into it), [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[31,3],"class_list":["post-518","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-josh-garofalo","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 26: Choosing a Niche with Josh Garofalo - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Freelance copywriter Josh Garofalo talks about choosing a niche, his process for working with clients, where he finds inspiration and more. 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