{"id":568,"date":"2017-05-02T14:58:31","date_gmt":"2017-05-02T07:58:31","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=568"},"modified":"2018-01-05T03:04:23","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T20:04:23","slug":"australian-copywriter-kate-toon","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/australian-copywriter-kate-toon\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast 31: Why Freelancing is Hard with Kate Toon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Kate Toon joins\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast for episode 31<\/em>\u2014all the way from Australia. She co-hosts <em>Hot Copy,<\/em> which we\u2019ve jokingly referred to as \u201cthe second best copywriter\u201d podcast. She casually throws out words like \u201cscuppered\u201d and \u201crubbish\u201d and \u201cbloomin\u2019\u201d as she\u00a0talks with Rob and Kira about:<br \/>\n\u2022 the backdoor she opened to land a copywriter job at Ogilvy<br \/>\n\u2022 the \u201cagency\u201d skills she learned that she applies in her freelance work every day<br \/>\n\u2022 why freelancing is so much harder than working at an agency<br \/>\n\u2022 why creating products isn\u2019t the path to easy street you might think it is<br \/>\n\u2022 how she created products and courses\u2014all while working for her clients<br \/>\n\u2022 why she\u2019s taking a year off from reading blog posts and articles<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s much more in this episode to tickle your ears.\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1754\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-568-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC031.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC031.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC031.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC031.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=568-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC031.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC031.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/ogilvy.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ogilvy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.amc.com\/shows\/mad-men?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Mad Men<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.clevercopywritingschool.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The Clever Copywriting School<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/therecipeforseosuccess.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kate\u2019s SEO Course<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moz.com\/about\/team\/randfish?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rand Fishkin<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00M1SUW7K\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B00M1SUW7K&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=cde092b0a49069381647619782cd5f8f\">Mustache wax<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/hootsuite.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Hootsuite<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/zencastr.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Zencastr<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/moz.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Moz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/neilpatel.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Neil Patel<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.quicksprout.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">QuickSprout<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Oprah\">Oprah Winfrey<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.netflix.com\/browse\">Netflix<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Crazy_Ex-Girlfriend_(TV_series)\">Crazy Ex-Girlfriend<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.thisamericanlife.org\"><em>This American Life<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/iraglass\">Ira Glass<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.smh.com.au\"><em>The Sydney Morning Herald<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0648026108\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0648026108&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=5871f94b21e37d82293169912a060ae3\"><em>The Misfit Entrepreneur<\/em><\/a> (Kate\u2019s Book)<br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.katetoon.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kate\u2019s website<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the Club for Episode 31 as we chat with copywriter SEO expert and misfit entrepreneur, Kate Tune about creating three successful businesses without a plan, SEO copywriting, running a podcast and writing conference and how to rock a hula hoop.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Hey Kira, hey Kate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Hello.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Hey Rob, hey Kate, thanks for being here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Thank you for that lovely intro.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We try to change it up with every guest and you\u2019ve called yourself the misfit entrepreneur so we thought, yeah it was appropriate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Thanks, yeah. And you managed to drop the hula hooping in, as well which is awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Well Kate, I think a great place to start is with how you became an SEO copywriter consultant and then we can talk about your job as a chatline operator later.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah, so I probably went a fairly traditional route. I\u2019m not sure everybody\u2019s route to copywriting is so different, isn\u2019t it? So, I went to university and did an utterly pointless degree in history, Roman history or something like, can\u2019t remember. And then I left and I desperately wanted to be a magazine journalist but I had racked up so much debt at university that I had to get a real job as a, pretty much a secretary. Then I worked in various jobs, in events, in publishing and eventually got hired by this weird agency that was building something called websites, way back. I\u2019m showing my age, now. I worked there for a few years and then I moved over to Australia and managed to get a job at Ogilvy, which is a big advertising agency in America and also it\u2019s over here in Australia, as well.<\/p>\n<p>From there I transitioned into being a copywriter and worked on lots of big brands, global brands and kind of hated it, kind of didn\u2019t like the agency life and as I got older, it got harder. Then eventually I got with child and could no longer be an agency copywriter because you have to work like 70 hours a day.<\/p>\n<p>So I gave it all up and became a freelance copywriter. Whoo hoo! That was a potted history.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s unpack that jus a little bit. We talk quite a bit with copywriters who are doing freelance stuff but we haven\u2019t talked to a whole lot of agency copywriters. Tell us about working in an agency and maybe even, what it takes for a copywriter to get a job at an agency.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Look, I think it\u2019s, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s easy. I think my route was very indirect. When I first started out, that was, you know, I was like, \u201cWow, I\u2019d like to work for an advertising agency.\u201d And I did get a job in an agency in London. Again, as a receptionist. So I had to go in as kind of like a non-creative person. But if you\u2019ve seen Mad Men, not everybody gets to move from reception to being a copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Only the best.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Only the best. I was literally that character, I\u2019ve forgotten her name now. But, so and then I left and then with Ogilvy, I just was in the right place at the right time. Australia was a little bit behind the eight ball with digital and advertising and my little experience counted a lot so I kind of got in at the ground level but again, as a producer, so I was actually managing projects.<\/p>\n<p>And then after a couple of years, I actually took about a 60% pay cut to be a copywriter. Because that\u2019s what I really wanted to do. So I lopped, they took 60% off my salary. Nice. And I started as a junior copywriter and kind of started working up.<\/p>\n<p>If you [were 00:04:14] straight out of college, I mean, gosh it\u2019s hard. It\u2019s super competitive. In Australia, there are a few kind of awards and schools that you can go through to get in. I think there\u2019s a huge amount of nepotism, you know who you know. Ii don\u2019t know. I actually wouldn\u2019t be able to give anybody any tips because the problem is, all your creative ideas, everyone else has got those creative ideas because they\u2019re all creative people.<\/p>\n<p>So, you know, maybe a sideways route would be my suggestion. Get in there, get into the agency whatever way you can and then show your skills because obviously there\u2019s lots of opportunities to kind of shine, if you take them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>What did you learn from the agency life at such a well known agency, especially in your different roles as a producer and then a copywriter? What did you learn that really helped give you an edge in your freelance business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Lots of things. I think as a producer, I learned how to project manage, which is a huge part of copywriting, really underestimated. Being able to work out time lines, work out budgets, manage multiple projects, keep projects moving so there\u2019s no dead time. So you can manage multiple projects and keep them all working for you, which is super important if you\u2019re a copywriter and you want to earn a decent living.<\/p>\n<p>You know, you need to be able to have lots of jobs on the go. I learned to deal with lots of egos, lots of people in agencies have enormous egos and so it teaches you a lot of diplomacy, which I think is very useful when dealing with clients.<\/p>\n<p>And then as a copywriter, I think you know, I used to write an awful lot of ad campaigns and tag lines and one liners for animated gifts. Remember animated gifts were all the rage back then. And coming up with really simple metaphors for describing things.<\/p>\n<p>And patterns and systems and methodologies so that you\u2019re never really starting with a blank page. It\u2019s all about starting with some kind of template or structure and filling in the blanks and what you end up with isn\u2019t perfect, but it gives you something to start working with.<\/p>\n<p>I think a lot of people might think that agency copywriters sit around on bean bags having epiphanies. They don\u2019t. They\u2019re just like you. They work with formulas, they look at old ads, they look at old campaigns. They do brainstorm, which is, I think something that we poor, lonely freelancers don\u2019t get to do.<\/p>\n<p>But a lot of it is quite formulaic, you know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Well, I was just going to ask you, what type of methodologies they typically use at ad agencies because I love that idea of you\u2019re never really starting with a blank page.<\/p>\n<p>Do you recall any of the processes or any tips that could help the lonely freelancer who does not have a team to brainstorm with?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yes, I mean the process would usually be, you know go and take your briefing with the dreaded account managers and the clients and then you\u2019d go away and there\u2019d always be a period of like, sort of self reflection where you\u2019d sit at your own desk and try and pull something out of your bottom, which was usually not particularly fruitful.<\/p>\n<p>The next thing would be that you\u2019re often partnered with a designer or an art director. So it was always a copywriter\/art director because a lot of what we were doing was adverts and ads. But also even long copy, you know, can be influenced by design.<\/p>\n<p>But also just another creative mind. So then you would sit and you would just kind of say stupid things to each other. Like come up with ideas, like what about we use a pig? Or what about we have a hedgehog? Well, I don\u2019t like hedgehogs. Well, and no idea was a bad idea, you just write everything down.<\/p>\n<p>But then in terms of cheats, as it were, I\u2019m just remembering my own creative director would say, \u201cThere\u2019s lots of easy ways to do ads, you know. Think of metaphors, like road sign metaphors.\u201d And you see this done to death, like \u201cStop\u201d stop sign. Or \u201cGive Way\u201d. Using this in your ad copy or just thinking of an overarching concept and a metaphor.<\/p>\n<p>So, you\u2019re writing about, I don\u2019t know, dentistry. But you\u2019re going to do the whole thing relating to ice cream. This is a terrible analogy. I should have prepped a better one. So you\u2019re going to talk about, you\u2019re just going to use one overarching concept or idea for the whole thing and that will give you your concept.<\/p>\n<p>So here\u2019s a better example, a copywriter I\u2019m working with is coming up with a new way of branding herself. And she\u2019s going to use a kind of makeover metaphor, like a plastic surgery metaphor. So she\u2019s, you know, slicing and dicing copy.<\/p>\n<p>Once you have that metaphor, you can just brainstorm a huge swipe file of words that relate to makeovers, nouns, adjectives and then you can start working through video copy. Not to the point where it becomes overdone and cheesy, but gives you a frame of reference.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So Kate, let\u2019s fast forward to you\u2019re a freelancer now. What is different about how you work today, or as a freelance writer, because I know you\u2019ve got some other businesses as well.<\/p>\n<p>But as a freelance writer, what do you do differently that you weren\u2019t doing in the agency? How has your job changed?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Well, it\u2019s just a whole lot harder. I mean, at the agency you turn up and you sit there and all you do is write copy. And that can be challenging because obviously some days there are no ideas but you are expected to pump them out.<\/p>\n<p>But as a freelance copywriter, you\u2019re really a business person, so it\u2019s all the other things. It\u2019s managing your finances, and doing your tax return and marketing yourself and dealing with customers and doing project timelines and project management. All those things are your responsibility as well.<\/p>\n<p>So having to sell your services as well as do your job, I think is the biggest difference.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>And at what point did you decide that writing wasn\u2019t enough, that you wanted to add things like courses and copy school and SEO? All of the various businesses that you\u2019ve built since.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah, I think it was kind of natural evolution. You start to notice the sorts of projects that you get more of. The sort of projects that you do best at and get the best feedback for. And the things you enjoy the most. And also, what there\u2019s more demand for. What other people aren\u2019t doing.<\/p>\n<p>So, with the SEO copywriting, lots of people talk the talk but they can\u2019t really walk the walk. Or they have a very light knowledge and learn a little bit about key words and that\u2019s about it.<\/p>\n<p>So I saw there was an opportunity to kind of go deeper and not be an evil SEO person, but be kind of halfway between a copywriter and an SEO person.<\/p>\n<p>So that was an evolution and with the copywriting school, I think, I know a lot of copywriters, I\u2019ve always worked hard to build up my network of competitors and make them into friends. And people will be like, \u201cNo, you know, it would be great, I really wish there was, has anyone done a press release? Does anyone have a template for press release?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And I do have all these templates because I built them all when I started because it made life easier for me. So sharing those became a natural thing and then I thought, \u201cHey, maybe I can make a bit of passive income with these.\u201d And then, \u201cHey, maybe I can teach people how to do this themselves.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it\u2019s just been a natural progression, really. There was no kind of lightning rod moment. It just all kind of happened organically.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Kate, I know you want to go into the Clever Copywriting School and your other courses and everything. But I want to know what the break down is today, as far as where you\u2019re spending your time. I know you do a lot and even just checking out your YouTube channel, I was like, \u201cOh my goodness.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You do so much and you\u2019re really out there. I want to know where you\u2019re spending most of your time, today. I think that would help give us some background.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah, I think it\u2019s changed a lot in the last year. So if you\u2019d asked me this question last year, it would be about, it was about 70% one on one clients, like copywriting clients and then about 30% everything else.<\/p>\n<p>And now, it\u2019s probably flipped over so it\u2019s about 80-90% the courses, the passive income, which is not really passive at all and the ongoing marketing that goes with that and about 10% clients. So it really has changed dramatically.<\/p>\n<p>There was a hideous period where I was trying to do all the things and have ongoing copywriting clients and I really did kind of work myself into the ground and it wasn\u2019t a fun time. But I, you know, it\u2019s that kind of thing where I had to go through that period because I\u2019m not somebody who can\u2019t not have income. That sounds odd, you know what I mean? I can\u2019t &#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I know exactly what you mean.<\/p>\n<p>Kate:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah, I don\u2019t have rich parents or a rich husbands, so I needed to keep the income coming in while I grew the other thing and that meant a lot of sacrifices and it was tough. Now, I\u2019m trying to kind of wind back a little bit. I\u2019m actually trying to get back a bit more to copywriting and trying to keep my hand in because I think very quickly you forget the kind of concerns and insights and issues that copywriters have and I can\u2019t serve my copywriting customers, my actual copywriters if I don\u2019t understand where they\u2019re hearts lay. Do you know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p>So I want to keep my hand in with that as well. Yeah about 80%, 20% if that makes sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So there\u2019s an obvious question here about how you balance it all? How do you make it work as mom, and an entrepreneur and you\u2019ve written a book and you\u2019ve created courses. How do you do it all?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Look, I would love to say that it\u2019s easy. And that I just spend five hours a day and it\u2019s already chill. But the truth is, it has been stressful and at times, you know, other things that should be a priority aren\u2019t, like looking after yourself and being healthy and having a life and friends and going to the movies. Stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve had, honestly and this is, it\u2019s odd that we\u2019re having this podcast today because this week has been a bit of an epiphany week for me. And, you know, I do have a little boy and I do always make time for him so I\u2019m there at school pick up and drop off and I don\u2019t work at the weekends but I cram a lot in. And I think that is the thing. I do not fanny about. I hope I can say fanny. It means something different in your world, I think.<\/p>\n<p>But I do not mess about. I use the Pomodoro technique. So I do work in 25 minute blurts. I\u2019m rigid. I make my list and I get everything done on the list. I prod myself with a stick to finish stuff and I do that most days. Maybe Fridays I\u2019m a little bit easier on myself but the other days, I work really hard. And I think I know that sounds really obvious but I do see a lot of copywriters going, \u201cOh, you know it\u2019s not really happening, I\u2019m not getting many clients.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, what are you doing? What did you do this week to market yourself or to get yourself out there?\u201d \u201cWell, I posted a thing on Facebook\u201d And it\u2019s like, \u201cNo. Dude, it\u2019s not enough! If you put that little effort in then you\u2019ll get the results that you expect.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, it\u2019s just hard work, organization and beating myself with a stick, I think. That\u2019s pretty much it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So I like to focus on the breakdown because I feel like I can relate to what you\u2019re saying and I\u2019m in kind of that challenging part where you\u2019re trying to move into this new revenue channels and creating.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>But then I\u2019m also juggling a lot of client work and I know a lot of copywriters are in that space where it\u2019s tough. So you said you were in it, you were juggling and then it didn\u2019t, I forget your wording, but it was not a pleasant time. How did you pull yourself out of it? I think that\u2019s the hard part. Because how much time, how long do we need to be in this hard time before we can pull ourselves out?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah, it is hard and I think there does come a point where you have to say, \u201clook, this month or this couple of months, I have to accept that I\u2019m not going to earn my regular salary. Maybe this month, I\u2019m going to be happy to earn a bit less so I can just fully focus on my projects. I\u2019m going to have to let some of my clients go. And one obvious thing there is you can always refer your clients to other copywriters and take maybe a small referral fee, you\u2019ve done all the marketing to win that client, you\u2019ve worked with them and you\u2019re handing them off. The other copywriter will be more than happy to pay a small referral fee, which then becomes a source of passive income for you as well.<\/p>\n<p>I made a lot of different things so I made some small things which sell every day and so it\u2019s a little bit of income like small templates and you know, mini courses that aren\u2019t huge money but it\u2019s a little bit of trickle money every day while I focused on my huge monster, which is the money maker, the big beast.<\/p>\n<p>And again, that was a slow burn as well. I didn\u2019t make millions, all these people who say, \u201cOh, I had a seven-fugure, big ecourse launch today.\u201d There\u2019s no proof of it and there\u2019s no breakdown of profit versus revenue. Don\u2019t believe the hype, you know. It is hard and I think you have to get to the point where you maybe, maybe you\u2019re making $100,000 as a copywriter. And maybe you have to take a period where you\u2019re only going to make $50,000 for a year as an entrepreneur, gosh I loathe that word, in the hope you that you will get back up again to the $100,000.<\/p>\n<p>But I would also say, and this is my cautionary tale, just because this whole passive income thing looks great, and it looks like, \u201cWow, wouldn\u2019t it be awesome to be selling things and having courses.\u201d I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s any better than just being a regular copywriter with great clients who like what you do. I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s better! I think it\u2019s just different, you know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, can we dig into that a little bit more? You mentioned earlier that passive income isn\u2019t really passive. We\u2019ve talked to a few people who\u2019ve built courses or were in the process of building courses and I can imagine there\u2019s a lot of work that goes into the front end but once the course is done, there\u2019s got to be a lot of work that goes into constantly promoting and launching and relaunching. Tell us about that whole experience for you, even if you would, how the money flow has changed from the beginning as you\u2019ve sort of grown your courses\u2019 business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>With the Clever Copywriting School, so I set up that years ago but I didn\u2019t really do anything with it. I imagined at first it would be like a commune and copywriters would all contribute but no one else ever did anything so it kind of different evolve and I just put some templates up in the shop and they sold, if they sold. That was always my attitude at the Clever Copywriting School. It was like, I\u2019m not going to put huge amounts of energy in. Anything that comes out of that is a bonus.<\/p>\n<p>And that is kind of pure passive income, because I make a template, I make it really great and then I sell it and it doesn\u2019t really ever need to change. Because press releases aren\u2019t going to change much in the next ten years. Press release is a press release. That is the real passive income.<\/p>\n<p>Now with Clever Copywriting School there\u2019s a membership where you can join part of a community and that is really cheap because copywriters don\u2019t have any money. Obviously what you need to do to make that membership work, is you need to be in there every day, providing advice, giving tips, sharing articles. Not for eight hours, but you need to be involved and if you\u2019re not, it shows. It really shows.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m sure you\u2019ve been part of membership communities where you never see hide nor hair of the person who actually lured you in. It\u2019s quite clear it\u2019s some 21 year old social media marketing manager who\u2019s just doing everything, no other person.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, and that\u2019s just not my vibe at all. I do like it to be me. So that again, it\u2019s a lot of effort but with those guys, if I\u2019m, if I make something, they\u2019re pretty much happy to buy it. It\u2019s just I don\u2019t have time to make enough stuff for them.<\/p>\n<p>With the big course, \u201cThe Recipe for SEO Success\u201d, that is a beast. Looking back, everyone said to me, \u201cDon\u2019t do an SEO course because it changes all the time.\u201d So if you write a copywriting essentials course, how to use commas, it\u2019s never going to use commas in a similar way. But SEO changes all the time, so every year I have to update all the materials and make sure they\u2019re in line with current trends because it\u2019s a living, breathing beast.<\/p>\n<p>And I also offer coaching with that course, while it runs and as you said, I have to launch it, which is quite draining. But financially, you know, so you know, the Copywriting School, it\u2019s still a small percentage of my income. It\u2019s never going to set the world on fire. With the Recipe course, the first year I hit my six figures, which in Australian terms is like $100,000. I\u2019m not sure what that is in American money. But obviously there was expense and who knows how much time I invested in building it.<\/p>\n<p>Now, obviously it\u2019s a lot less. I do update the materials. I\u2019m an over updater. I care too much. So like people are like, \u201cIt\u2019s fine. Leave it. Step away.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m just going to .. I\u2019m just going to change every graphic in the site to this slightly different shade of red.\u201d No, and they\u2019re like, \u201cKate, step away!\u201d You know, I\u2019m my own worst enemy.<\/p>\n<p>But yeah, all passive income unless it literally is something like a book which you write and then it sells, but as you said, you\u2019ve got to keep your name out there. You\u2019ve got to keep going \u201cHi, remember me, I wrote the book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And you do that through podcasts and Facebook and videos and bah, bah, bah, bah. It\u2019s a lot. So, yeah, that\u2019s why I\u2019m at the moment, I\u2019m kind of I\u2019ve done it all, it\u2019s all done, it\u2019s all out there. I\u2019m winding back a little bit just because I don\u2019t want to keep working at this level any more. I want to go back to being chill.<\/p>\n<p>And let me say, I do not work like 80 hour weeks, but it\u2019s just I would like to only work four days a week. You know, because I want to learn to paddle board and cook and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s all about lifestyle choice and age and stuff like that, as well, I think.<\/p>\n<p>What do you think, guys?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019m just listening to you, I\u2019m like, oh that sounds so nice. Having a life and cooking and having friends? Wow, that sounds &#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>People do apparently, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I have had that thought recently of just, I think I have been really focused on go, go, go, go like all of us and we\u2019re all like competitive, ambitious people and I think I\u2019m going out of that stage, at least I have been, recently where I\u2019m like, \u201cYou know, it might be nice to actually go to Yoga or have a life or go to a girls\u2019 night and hang out with my friends who I haven\u2019t seen in forever.\u201d And so I think there\u2019s this change and you\u2019re talking about the same thing. That\u2019s why I was just sitting here like, \u201cOh my goodness\u201d I don\u2019t even know if this is a question. I think I just want you to be my coach and tell me what to do with my life.<\/p>\n<p>Can we make this transition and have a life? Do we have to sacrifice our life in order to build the membership and build the course and have the &#8230; like is there a way to do this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> I mean, look I think unless, I honestly don\u2019t think there is. That\u2019s my [crosstalk 00:22:34] Especially if you have small children as well. I mean, I was, look if I\u2019d done all of this when I was 25, it would be a different story but I was an idiot when I was 25 or I wouldn\u2019t have even, I was worried about boys and what outfit I was going to wear and drinking and you know, I didn\u2019t have the confidence or the intelligence to do what I do now.<\/p>\n<p>But obviously now, I\u2019m tired, I\u2019ve got lots of responsibilities and I think a lot of it is kind of going, you can\u2019t keep up with the Jones\u2019. I compare myself with the most ridiculous people. Like I compare myself with Rand Fishkin and go, well Rand Fishkin makes [inaudible 00:23:09] every Friday. Rand Fishkin is a billionaire. He has a team of hundreds of people working for him. He doesn\u2019t make, he just turns up with his mustache wax and makes that video. He doesn\u2019t edit it, he doesn\u2019t put it on YouTube, he doesn\u2019t write the copy, he doesn\u2019t do the, you know, you guys know putting a podcast together.<\/p>\n<p>People are like, \u201cOh a podcast would be great.\u201d And then you do one and then you\u2019re like, \u201cIt is so much work.\u201d You know, scheduling the guests, editing the audio, putting it up, putting the graphics, making the little video, ahhh!<\/p>\n<p>So I think comparison is really important. So comparing yourself with the right people. And also, I used to schedule my calendar around all the work things I had to do. I had little different colors for every different thing in my calendar, like this is podcast time, this is this time.<\/p>\n<p>Now, what I do is I take all my work stuff out, and I schedule all the things I want to do in my calendar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No way! Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah, so I &#8230; obviously, if I\u2019ve got an actual appointment, I\u2019ll put it in. But I used to schedule like work zones, to try and get &#8230; now I\u2019m like, this is family time. This is when I\u2019m going here. This is when I\u2019m going to finish early and have a massage.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019m not there yet. I only used to work three days a week, then my son went to school, now I work five days a week, but short days. And I want to get back to working four days a week. So I\u2019m moving towards a nine day fortnight.<\/p>\n<p>Listen to me, it\u2019s awful because I push myself. Sounds like you\u2019re the same, you know, I want to do all the things I enjoy. I love it. And you get into a little bubble where you think it\u2019s all really important and it all really matters and then you go out and you talk to someone who\u2019s like a nurse or a teacher, and they have no idea what flipping Hootsuite is or zen cast or, you know, and they just think what you\u2019re doing is interesting, but not that interesting and you\u2019re like, \u201cWow, this is all &#8230; what am I doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I think just have those aha moments and the aha moments come thicker and faster and then you finally have the point where you go, \u201cThis is enough. This is all I can do and that has to be enough for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Enough talk about how hard copywriting is. Let\u2019s talk about something easy, SEO.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Shall we?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Yes, easy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, of course. So Kate, you\u2019re obviously an expert at SEO, if I try to find the best copywriter in Australia, I believe your name comes up at the top of the list. What should copywriters know about writing for SEO and what can we do, what can I do if I want to be the best copywriter in America, or at least I want that to come up on top of Google, what things should I be doing in order to do that? Besides taking your course?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Of course, take my course. That\u2019s the main priority and that\u2019s my only advice.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I think you need to move away from just thinking about SEO copywriting as copywriting because there\u2019s a lot more at play and you know, clients will come to you and say, \u201cHey, we want some great SEO copy for our site and maybe you know a little bit about keyword research and a little bit about writing SEO friendly copy, but if their site is technically flawed, you can write all the copy that you want and it will have no impact on their ranking.<\/p>\n<p>So I think you have to embrace a bit of the technical stuff. You need to understand things about speed and responsiveness, crawlability. You know you have to educate yourself on that so you can educate your clients.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s obviously huge amounts of resources out there and that can be overwhelming and I think that can actually stop people from learning. So I think it\u2019s really about finding one or two sources of truth and only reading their articles because otherwise it\u2019s just too much to read.<\/p>\n<p>So I\u2019ve mentioned Rand Fishkin, who\u2019s kind of the spokesperson from Moz so I follow him and another guy, Neil Patel, who runs a website called Quick Sprout. His posts are horrifically long, so I kind of skim read them and just try and pick up one or two things.<\/p>\n<p>So I think it\u2019s just educating, like putting aside a little time a week to sort of spend an hour learning about SEO copywriting.<\/p>\n<p>And in answer to your question about how to rank for best copywriter in America &#8230; you know what? It\u2019s so simple. You literally just use the words, \u201cbest copywriter in Australia\u201d and you\u2019d be surprised how few copywriters have actually used those. Now, they\u2019ll all be using them. And that\u2019s my problem &#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, you just gave away your secret.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Well, this is it and I give away all my secrets. I\u2019ve got about 150 copywriters who\u2019ve done my SEO course and they\u2019re now starting to outrank me. Yesterday, someone, one of my students outranked me for legal copywriter, just the phrase, \u201clegal copywriter in Australia\u201d, which I\u2019ve always had. I\u2019m not actually that good of a legal copywriter but it, you now, it was mine.<\/p>\n<p>I actually don\u2019t care because I was so pleased that she\u2019d taken the information from the course and used it and outranked me, you know. You just need to think about user intent, think about what people want. Go beyond the obvious, someone might type in \u201ccopywriter Cincinnati\u201d but really the conversion, the money comes from phrases like \u201cfinancial services writer in Ipswich\u201d. Do you know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s the long tale phrases. That person is so far down the conversion path, they know exactly what they want, when they reach your page, give them what they want &#8230; they\u2019ll convert. And you only need one or two of those a month to maybe hit your financial goals, you know.<\/p>\n<p>So think of it quite coldly and scientifically. Think about user intent and then really make sure that when they get to your services pages on your site, the content there is great. It\u2019s not just generic, \u201cI am a legal copywriter and I write legal copy.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cLegal copywriting needs to be this, this, this and this. Some of the things that, issues you might have are this and this. And this is how I can help and this is the advantage I\u2019m going to give you and here\u2019s a testimonial and here\u2019s a video and here are three samples.\u201d That\u2019s a good services page, you know. I see so many copywriter websites where you could change the logo at the top of the page and it could be anybody\u2019s website.<\/p>\n<p>So, I think you\u2019ve really got to dig a bit deeper.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I think I need your course as you\u2019re reciting all those, I\u2019m like, \u201cI need to brush up on SEO. That\u2019s not my strong suit.\u201d But clearly we need to be aware of it and know about it.<\/p>\n<p>So, I\u2019m going to pivot. Again, like we said, you\u2019re in a lot of places, you have your podcast, you have a YouTube channel, you have social media channels, you speak on the stage, you run conferences, you\u2019ve pursued multiple marketing channels and so, from your perspective right now, where do you see the opportunity for copywriters to really show up?<\/p>\n<p>Is there one or two channels that works really well for copywriters today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> Look, I still think guest posting on other websites, like business websites and magazines and digital magazines is a great place to show your writing skills. You know, I\u2019ve had a lot of clients come from relationships where I\u2019ve tried, you know, so if you can become a columnist or a regular contributor to something, either in your local area or something a bit more larger scale, I do think that really helps. Because obviously you\u2019re showing what you do.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I think and this does not sit well with many of the copywriters in my group, they all go, \u201cuhhh\u201d is video. Because obviously a lot of us copywriters are quite introverted and we don\u2019t necessarily like showing our face or being on camera or being out there because that\u2019s one of the reasons we became a copywriter so we could hide in our pajamas behind our computer.<\/p>\n<p>But, you know, a couple of well produced videos just talking, introducing who you are, explaining your services, really just help people connect with you because you\u2019re really just, there are millions of copywriters and it\u2019s fine because there are millions of copywriting jobs.<\/p>\n<p>But you just need to differentiate yourself a little bit. And I\u2019m not talking about necessarily niching like being the only copywriter that writes about organic soup, but I mean, just why do I want to work with you rather than this other person. And I think people choose &#8230; copywriting is a very intimate relationship so they do want to like you. They do want to feel understood and reassured and comfortable with you and video is a great way of starting that relationship.<\/p>\n<p>Because I think, you know, a lot of copywriting courses and books and whatever talk so much about where to put your colon and how to write great conversion copywriting. It\u2019s all important, don\u2019t get me wrong. But the reason I\u2019ve been successful is not because of that.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s because I\u2019ve formed great relationships with my clients. I\u2019m actually rubbish at grammar and I don\u2019t know much about conversion copywriting but I do know about building good relationships and video, I think, is a great way of starting that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Kate, a lot of what you do is teaching. You run a podcast, much like ours. Before the show we were calling it our second favorite copywriting podcast,<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I think you just completed a writing conference? Talk to us a little bit about how you see our role there. Is it really all about teaching? Or is this also about growing your influence? What is it that makes you want to get into these other businesses?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Honestly, it\u2019s just random, spur of the moment late night ideas. That\u2019s, I\u2019m terrible for that. So I will go out there and say, \u201cHey, why don\u2019t I do a copywriting conference?\u201d And every will go, \u201cYeah, let\u2019s do it! Make it happen.\u201d And then I\u2019m like, \u201cOh God, now I actually really have to do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I\u2019m really trying to not do that anymore. Like not promise things because I am somebody who feels I have to then follow through on the promise.<\/p>\n<p>So the copywriting conference was literally, like, \u201cThat would be fun, wouldn\u2019t it? I\u2019d like to do that. I didn\u2019t have a big wedding so maybe this could be like planning my big wedding and then I could have a venue and lots of [inaudible 00:32:22]\u201d but no, I mean my courses and my teaching, they\u2019re not focused so much on the art of copywriting. They\u2019re much more focused on the business side and on the confidence and the more abstract parts of being a copywriter: relationship building, pricing, all that kind of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>The conference has been a huge amount of work and I\u2019m not necessarily saying I\u2019ll never do it again, you know it was an interesting experiment. I may do it again.<\/p>\n<p>I think for a long time it has been about building up my authority and my influence. Why did I do that? Probably just to tickle my ego, maybe? A little bit? We all have one. But I do enjoy helping people as well and you know, as I\u2019ve become more known where I am, you see the challenges of that as well.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not all great. A lot of it is lovely, a day doesn\u2019t go past where I don\u2019t get an email from someone saying, \u201cThank you for this or thank you for that.\u201d And that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Kate, I was actually going to ask you, this is sort of a clich\u00e9 question but I love this question. If you could go back to the beginning of your freelance copywriting career, not necessarily the ad agency career, what advice would you give yourself at this point?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> I would give myself the advice not to live next door to somebody with crazy dogs, which I hope you can\u2019t hear in the background.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>It\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Sorry about that. It\u2019s all real, people, this is all real. I think it would definitely be not to compare myself to others. If there\u2019s one thing that has kind of scuppered me along the way, it has been that comparison trap.<\/p>\n<p>If you know picking somebody who\u2019s at the top of the Google rankings, who\u2019s been doing it for 10 years going, I\u2019m not as good as them.<\/p>\n<p>And it\u2019s like, \u201cOf course you blooming not. What are you talking about?\u201d That\u2019s been a lot, taken me a long time to learn that lesson. I\u2019m still learning that lesson.<\/p>\n<p>So I think you know, you\u2019re starting out, just build slowly. Don\u2019t compare yourself to everyone else. Yes, befriend other copywriters but you know, it\u2019s very Oprah Winfrey, but you know, run your own race. Put your blinkers on. Focus on servicing your clients and doing the best job you can and it will all evolve naturally if you just work hard and get yourself out there a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t need to be standing up on stage after one week. Just, it will all evolve, you know, take your time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Kate, you mentioned taking a step back this year, trying to be present, I guess, in the choices that you make and the things that you do. What do you do to recharge your batteries and improve your skill set?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>At the moment, I just watch Netflix which is not enough, so I need to do more of that. So I\u2019ve been watching \u201cCrazy Ex Girlfriend\u201d a lot. Even though I\u2019ve already watched it.<\/p>\n<p>I do kind of really mundane stuff. I like to garden, I like to cook, I like to walk my dog on the beach, we live quite close to the beach. I like to do stuff with my son, so just normal, you know, human-y things I want to do more of.<\/p>\n<p>And that really does recharge me. I want to read more. I listen to a lot of podcasts. But I don\u2019t listen to business podcasts because they get my brain ticking and that\u2019s the last thing I want.<\/p>\n<p>So &#8230; I love \u201cThis American Life\u201d. I\u2019m having an imaginary affair with Ira Glass, I love his voice. I listen to a lot of those and a lot of British comedy podcasts as well.<\/p>\n<p>And in terms of it improving my learning, you know what? I\u2019m at the point now, for the next year, I actually don\u2019t want to learn anything new. That sounds really bad. I just want to let everything I know in me, sort of settle a bit. Because I feel sometimes we\u2019re so busy consuming new information that we\u2019re not actually &#8230; I want to feel more comfortable with what I already know.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t want to be an expert at this latest social media platform or learn this new technique. I want to be better at the things I already know. So, I\u2019m having a year off reading blog posts and articles and eBooks and I just want to relax for the next year and just keep it, keep on keeping on. And not build anything new.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay. I feel like I really needed to be a part of this interview just to hear you talk about this phase and this change and how it\u2019s okay and this is great and this is a natural transition for you. And so before we wrap, I would like to ask you about your hula hooping expertise because that\u2019s something that\u2019s quite intriguing. Like, I\u2019d like to see you hula hoop sometime soon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> It would not be pretty, that was just a silly thing that I was trying to do my Linked-In profile and everybody had three things. It was like, \u201cI\u2019m an entrepreneur, this and a hedge fund manager.\u201d It was always three things, you know, the power of three. We know that that is a powerful thing in copywriting. So I\u2019m a copywriter, an SEO lover and I just couldn\u2019t think of anything, so I just wrote hula hooper. And since then it has dogged me because I\u2019m actually a terrible hula hooper. I can\u2019t keep it up.<\/p>\n<p>And people, I\u2019ve even had, I had from the Sydney Morning Herald, which is a big newspaper over here, contact me because they were doing a feature on hula hoopers and did I want to be in the feature? And I had to admit I actually can\u2019t hula hoop and it as all a lie so don\u2019t believe everything you read, people. False advertising. False advertising.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I feel like my worldview has been shattered.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>It\u2019s crushing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> I was a gibbon keeper, that is true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>And I was a chat line operator and you can read all about that in my new book. There, I did it! I got my thing in. Whoo hoo!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>And I was just going to ask you, Kate, where can we find you on line and tell us where we can get your book?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Oh, well luckily I\u2019m quite good at SEO, so if you just type in \u201cKate Toon\u201d, something about me should come up and my hub site is <a href=\"http:\/\/www.katetoon.com\">www.katetoon.com<\/a>. You can find my book there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Can you just give us a quick overview of your book so we know what to expect?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> It\u2019s basically this podcast spread over 171 pages.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate:<\/strong> It\u2019s literally how I got started, and it\u2019s kind of trying to talk to people and say, \u201cIt\u2019s okay to be your own kind of business owner. You don\u2019t need to have aggressively white teeth and a lapel mic and be doing TED Talks and waving your hands around to be a success.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Again, you\u2019re shattering my worldview.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>Do you have aggressively white teeth? I\u2019m going to go and Google your face now and see what you look like. All Americans do. All Americans have wonderful teeth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I have a face for podcasting, unfortunately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No you do not, Rob. No you do not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Kate, this has been an awesome interview. Thank you so much for giving us so much of your time and getting up early to chat with us. We really appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kate: <\/strong>It\u2019s been wonderful and I\u2019d love to have you back on the Hot Copy Podcast soon, too. So we can do a swap. And because you are my second favorite copywriting podcast as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>It\u2019s a deal. Let\u2019s make it happen.<\/p>\n<p>Before we end the podcast, we just want to tell you about our sponsor, Airstory. Airstory is an application designed to help you write faster and it does a few things really well. It makes collaborating with others on your team easier. So if you work with clients or other team members on projects, you\u2019ll love the way that you can interact within your project documents.<\/p>\n<p>But there are two things that we really like about Airstory that you won\u2019t get with Word or Google Docs. The first is the way that it let\u2019s you organize information into cards.<\/p>\n<p>If you refer to research or other information when writing blog posts or websites or sales pages, you\u2019ll love the way that you can organize bits of information or entire articles into a card file that you can then drag and drop into your document.<\/p>\n<p>And if you do your research online, Airstory\u2019s chrome extension lets you cut and save information directly into Airstory. It\u2019s pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p>Plus Airstory has a library of templates that you can use on different projects. So let\u2019s say you\u2019ve been hired to write a sales page or an email sequence and you don\u2019t have any experience or you want additional inspiration for the project. You can go into the template library, find a template for what you\u2019re working on and use it to start your document.<\/p>\n<p>Maybe best of all, you can try it now for free. In fact, one project at Airstory is always free.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re a professional writer, there\u2019s so much here that can help you. Check it out at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kate Toon joins\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast for episode 31\u2014all the way from Australia. She co-hosts Hot Copy, which we\u2019ve jokingly referred to as \u201cthe second best copywriter\u201d podcast. She casually [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[35,3],"class_list":["post-568","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-kate-toon","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast 31: Why Freelancing is Hard with Kate Toon - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Kate Toon talks about the &quot;agency&quot; skills she uses in her freelance business, the products she&#039;s created, why she&#039;s taking a year off from learning and more\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/australian-copywriter-kate-toon\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast 31: Why Freelancing is Hard with Kate Toon - 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