{"id":724,"date":"2017-06-13T14:20:27","date_gmt":"2017-06-13T07:20:27","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=724"},"modified":"2018-01-04T11:40:44","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T04:40:44","slug":"copywriter-maggie-patterson","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-maggie-patterson\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #37: Don&#8217;t Build a Course with Maggie Patterson"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and business strategist, Maggie Patterson joins\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast\u00a0<\/em>to talk about growing a sustainable consulting business. This is actually the second time Maggie has joined us to chat, but sadly, the first recordings are lost to history. In this second go-round (which just might be better than the lost episode),\u00a0Kira and Rob\u00a0get the low down on:<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u00a0Exactly what it takes to grow a sustainable copywriting business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0The three things you need before you can teach a skill or build a course<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0How to find undiscovered opportunities in your business today<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0What it takes to move your business to the next level<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0How to build a platform and position yourself the right way<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0How to get more done (especially\u00a0when you\u2019re busy)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0How to deal with clients (the good and the bad)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0The one thing copywriters can do to improve their businesses today<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0The secret to getting referrals from your clients<\/p>\n<p>Maggie lets loose and shares it all in this episode.\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_8615\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-724-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC037.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC037.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC037.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC037.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=724-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC037.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC037.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/scoopindustries.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Maggie\u2019s website<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/maggiepatterson.com\/episode130\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The Service Business Success Show<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/brittanybecher?lang=en\">Brittany Becher<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/scoopindustries.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Scoop Industries<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.elephantconversations.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The conflict resolution resource Maggie <\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.elephantconversations.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">mentioned but didn\u2019t talk about<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/basecamp.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Basecamp<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/conversionxl.com\/9-lessons-learned-running-cro-agency\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">CXL article on process posted by Rob<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\">Joanna Wiebe<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.jambajuice.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Jamba Juice<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at the Copywriter Club podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 37 as we chat with copywriter and entrepreneur Maggie Patterson about getting referrals, building a business and merging it with her partner\u2019s business, productize services, why you shouldn\u2019t create a course, and how we can up our game as copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Hey, Rob. Hey, Maggie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Hey, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Kira, Maggie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I\u2019m excited to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Welcome back. We did record an episode with Maggie, and it was incredible, and it was lost. Lost somewhere in a hole, so this is going to be even better, because Maggie is even more fired up this time, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s possible, but we\u2019ll see what I can do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I think a great place to start, Maggie, is you recently put out a show on your podcast, the Service Business Success Show, and I believe it was episode 53 of your show. You were talking about why being a practitioner matters. That was one of my favorite shows that you put out, and I know you were fired up. I want to hear what was the catalyst for even creating that show, and maybe you can just give some backstory for people who didn\u2019t listen to that show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Essentially, the premise of that show was &#8230; I love this question, by the way, because this is one of my most favorite topics. The premise of it was really that so many times, we want to cut ahead, and we just want this seven bajillion dollar business, and we don\u2019t actually want to do the work. The reality is for us to build a sustainable business, we need to have mastery. We have to have real skills. For us to be relevant and to be able to grow to those next stages of potentially, one day, maybe in the future of having an online course, you need to be really, really good at what you do to be in touch with it.<\/p>\n<p>I think I see so many people teaching that aren\u2019t doing anymore, and they\u2019re disconnected. They\u2019re giving advice that is not relevant, or you know what, one even worse, they\u2019ve never actually done it themselves. It\u2019s something their coach taught them, and now they\u2019re teaching it to other people. There\u2019s just so much flimsiness out there. It makes me crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. I see this over and over. I\u2019m not going to name any names. I\u2019m sure people can identify people, but it\u2019s almost like a guru or so-called guru does something once. Maybe they built an email list using Pinterest, or they offer a product and they build a sales page, and then suddenly everything is all about how do you do list building and how do you do sales pages. They\u2019re selling courses about the thing that they\u2019ve done once for their own business. They\u2019ve never done it for anybody else\u2019s business. Who knows if it\u2019s replicable. It drives me crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Here\u2019s the thing that gets me about it is as a practitioner, as someone who\u2019s been doing this a fairly long time is I\u2019ve seen so many different scenarios and mutations of how things will go. The market changes so fast when you\u2019re working online. The reality is is that at the end of the day, it\u2019s really hard for you to teach or give anyone counsel when you haven\u2019t looked at that more macro view. I think people are teaching a very micro-view of that thing that happened for them.<\/p>\n<p>Then, what happens to the rest of us over here in practitioner land is we are left undoing those unreasonable expectations. I mean, I have this conversation multiple times per week with clients where I\u2019m educating them. I always say, \u201cThat person is a freaking magical unicorn. Results may vary. That\u2019s not typical.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m now the dream killer completely, 24\/7. That\u2019s my official hashtag. Princess Straight Talk is the other one I\u2019ve started calling myself lately.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> When people are listening, though, it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, how do we know if we\u2019re ready to teach the course?\u201d Right? Because, there could be some people that have been the practitioner for a while, or at least in their mind, they are good. Is there some type of checklist we could run through so we know when we\u2019re ready to expand and maybe teach?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I think there\u2019s really three parts to this is, number one, understanding that value chain of building your business. Most of us start off freelancing, and then we move into being a business owner. Then, we move into leveraged or productized services. Then, we should be going into probably something more like a group program.<\/p>\n<p>So many times, I see people wanting to go from freelancer to big-money group program, or totally hands-off, passive product. What they\u2019re missing in that is refining their method. I think doing &#8230; just, let\u2019s say as a copywriter, just writing copy for a really long time is not good enough, in my book at least. You need to have methods, systems and frameworks, and have your process really, really set out. I think if you haven\u2019t done that step of offering a productized service yet, you\u2019re probably jumping ahead.<\/p>\n<p>Number two is understanding, as a service business owner, as a copywriter, there is so much scale left in your business. So many times people will say to me &#8230; I\u2019ve had this conversation twice in the last week alone, that they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, I maxed down on how much money I can make.\u201d Then I start deconstructing their business. I look at it, I\u2019m like, \u201cYou could raise your price here. You could triple your price here. You could add a service here.\u201d They could be making so much more money without that time, effort and stress of launching a course.<\/p>\n<p>Then the third thing is have you done the audience building? This is the one I see a lot of people break down. Maybe they\u2019ve nailed one and two, but they\u2019re like, \u201cWell, I have a 50-person list.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay. Good luck with that conversion rate.\u201dI think as a copywriter, we have a better handle on conversion rate, but we have these mythical, magical stories of rainbows and unicorns where so-and-so had a 500-person list. Well let me tell you about that, it was four years ago when there was only two people doing what that person does. Now, there\u2019s 500 people doing the same thing, trying to teach that same course.<\/p>\n<p>I think you need to have your feet firmly planted in reality, and really look at do I have the audience and the reputation to pull this course off. Hey, maybe you\u2019re only trying to get five people. Great. But, usually people have a very different vision of what that course is going to be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Why is this happening now that it\u2019s so saturated? Are we in the bubble, or has the bubble popped? Because I\u2019ve heard some people say, \u201cThe bubble has popped in the course arena.\u201d Other people have said, \u201cNo. Not yet.\u201d I mean, will we know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I could argue both ways. My business partner, Brittany, and I had this discussion earlier this week. I think we\u2019re seeing the start of the end of the bubble. I think we\u2019re a far &#8230; We\u2019re in the decline. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re in the bubble popped. I think the thing to remember is, even if the course bubble pops, that\u2019s a great thing because the best courses, the cream will rise to the top kind of thing. I do think we\u2019re still a while out of these course things. I think, honestly, people want to launch a course because it sounds easy and fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk more about that, Maggie. If we want to launch a course, the last time we talked in the horribly lost episode, you gave us some advice that\u2019s contrary to a lot of what we\u2019ve heard from other people. If I want to launch a course, what are you going to tell me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Well, the first thing I\u2019m going to ask you is how big your email list is, and how much are you willing to invest to grow your audience, and realizing that audience growth is a little bit nebulous for a lot of us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s say that\u2019s going to be three to five hours a week.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah, good luck. I hope you\u2019ve got some money. You know what, here\u2019s the being with Facebook ads, I hope you have a large budget for Facebook ads, because the quality of that traffic, and it\u2019s cold traffic, ain\u2019t going to convert as well. It\u2019s just not. I think you need to really look at where you are with audience growth.<\/p>\n<p>Then the other thing is, too, go back what I said a couple minutes ago, but have you done the work within your existing business to make the most of your services? I would argue 90% of people who are probably listening to this probably haven\u2019t already. They think they\u2019re further ahead. They want to skip ahead. You know what, I did this. I am the case study of this mistake.<\/p>\n<p>I launched a course 18 months ago. It was a big, big thing. I spent a lot of money. I was like, \u201cI\u2019ve been doing this for like a gajillion years. I got this handled.\u201d Well, you know what happened? I spent a lot of money on branding, because I can\u2019t do anything halfway. I basically found myself after launching it the first time in a cost recovery situation. I mean, I had a fairly solid launch. I didn\u2019t have like 50 people. I think I had 20, which was, hey, I thought that was a great showing for the first time out of the gate, but I also had a pretty healthy list at that point.<\/p>\n<p>What I really found from that is how much work I had to decline during that time. It actually cost me money to launch that course in the end, because I was declining all the service business, really great solid leads that I would\u2019ve, at another time, been all over.<\/p>\n<p>Then finally, the time. I had 46 modules in that course. That was a design class.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> It was 46 lessons, eight modules. Do you know how long it took to create that content?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Totally.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> 4,000 years. It was such a distraction from doing my best work. I launched it twice. It taught me a lot. We do have courses. We do have group programs now, but how we approach this is very different, because to me personally, the launch model is exhausting and stressful. I don\u2019t love it. I would rather go book a 20K project. Thanks very much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think that\u2019s really important, what you\u2019re saying there. If it takes two months to create a course, and you\u2019re not taking on any client work during that time, then it takes almost full-time, another month to launch it and to get it going, and then you\u2019re supporting it maybe half or three quarters of your time, if your course isn\u2019t producing as much revenue as you would be getting from working with clients, it seems like that\u2019s a huge gamble, and probably a losing one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Honestly, I see more people fail with their course launch than succeed. I want people to succeed. I truly do. But I want them to do at the right time when they have the money, the time to invest, and that they\u2019re okay with taking that hit if it doesn\u2019t go as planned.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Maggie, you\u2019re talking a lot about mastery and opportunities in your current business. You mentioned, \u201cI\u2019d rather book a 20K project.\u201d Well, that sounds great. I think a lot of the copywriters listening are like, \u201cYeah, I\u2019d rather do that, too, but I don\u2019t even know how to get to that level where I\u2019m booking 20K projects,\u201d because a lot of new copywriters in our club are listening. How can they get that mastery and find those opportunities in their current business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> If you\u2019re just starting out, the odds of you booking a 20K project are probably pretty low to start, but it is possible over time. You need to look at things as everything in your business is a set of stairs. You\u2019re always going to be climbing up to that next stair.<\/p>\n<p>Instead of getting obsessed with the fact that, \u201cHey, Maggie said she\u2019d like to book a 20K project,\u201d backing up the buss and being like, \u201cHow can I book &#8230;\u201d Maybe you\u2019re booking $1,000 projects right now. \u201cHow can I book a $2,000 project?\u201d It really comes down to three things ultimately as a copywriter is your packages. How do you package your expertise in a way that it makes that act of getting someone to consult with you and say yes easy? How do you price yourself so that your pricing isn\u2019t just trading time for dollars, but it\u2019s actually profitable and you feel amazing about that energy exchange? Then finally, how do you position yourself in a crowded market? Because hello, I think we\u2019ve learned from <em>The Copywriter Club<\/em> how many copywriters there are. How do you position yourself?<\/p>\n<p>This might be niching. This might be focusing like you have Kira on sales copy. Finding something that you\u2019re really good at and consistently honing that craft and being known for it. I think we, as copywriters, can write a lot of different types of copy. We want to do all these different things, but how we position ourselves in the market is so, so important. What you want to do is make your competition irrelevant so that it\u2019s like, \u201cNo. If you are going to do X, you\u2019re going to person Y. The end.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I know Kira wants to ask about the number two, but I want to jump right to number three, positioning. When it comes to building a platform, Maggie, you\u2019ve done this. You\u2019ve done it really well. You\u2019re out there. You\u2019re in front of potential clients. You\u2019re in front of other copywriters and other entrepreneurs. Talk to us a little bit about how you\u2019ve built your platform and your expertise and positioned yourself in the market so that others can do the same kind of a thing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> For me, I think as a writer, what\u2019s the best way for you to position yourself is with your writing. When I was switching my business from the off-line, I don\u2019t have a website model &#8230; True story. I didn\u2019t have a website, but I was fully booked, making good money so I wasn\u2019t super worried, but once I started to change things up and I established my website, and I was like, \u201cOkay, Maggie, what you need to do is &#8230;\u201d I started guest posting. I guest posted really steadily. Again, stairstepping, starting with small outlets, working my way up to things like virgin.com and entrepreneur.com and really focusing in on how can I continually showcase my writing.<\/p>\n<p>That was a huge, huge win for me because I create content for a living. I do a lot of ghostwriting. For me, that made a lot of sense. I also think, too, playing to your strengths and understanding where is your audience going to be. Maybe your people aren\u2019t going to read that, so you might need to do what Rob and Kira did and find a podcast, too, that you can host. Maybe you need to be doing video.<\/p>\n<p>I think playing, too, figuring out where your people are going to be like if you\u2019re serving &#8230; I always use this example, but if your audience is really, really, really busy moms &#8230; It\u2019s a horrible audience for a copywriter, by the way, but you probably shouldn\u2019t be creating long-form content for them to read because there\u2019s no way they\u2019re reading that. They want a 40-second really funny video so they feel connected to you. Understanding your audience needs, where your people hang out, and then what you\u2019re really good at and where you can show up the best.<\/p>\n<p>I think, for me, the platform thing came really naturally because I started off working in a PR agency, so that was my jam. It\u2019s not going to be everyone\u2019s. I think the other thing is, too &#8230; I hear this excuse a lot &#8230; \u201cI don\u2019t want to be out there. I\u2019m an introvert.\u201d Guys, I\u2019m an introvert, too. I would rather never be on a video, ever in my life, but it\u2019s just part of the game. I think if you want it bad enough, you will push yourself outside that comfort zone and put yourself out there.<\/p>\n<p>The pleasant thing is, guys, people aren\u2019t paying as much attention as you think they are, so if you screw up, it\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s good to know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You can screw up. It is fine. Jumping into number two, you mentioned learning how to price yourself profitably, so you\u2019re not just doing hourly work. That is a struggle for so many copywriters. How do we do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I think one of the big feelings I had in my early days as a copywriter, and many of us have, is we say, \u201c$75 an hour. That would be awesome.\u201d Because, we\u2019re not thinking about the rest of the process. I think we need to think about if you\u2019re going to have a target hourly rate, or a flat rate for a project, you need to be looking at the entire 10,000 foot level of everything that goes into you delivering that. How long is your sales process? How much time do you have to invest upfront to get a client on board? Those are all sunk hours as far as I\u2019m concerned, and they should be included in it. Otherwise, you\u2019re doing work for free.<\/p>\n<p>You don\u2019t have to tell your client you\u2019re billing them for it. It just goes compounded into your hourly. The same way if they go to a copywriting agency, you\u2019re paying for their marble foyer and their retreat to Cuba. You need to be taking those inputs in your business.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing is, what tools do you need to run your business? What kind of overhead do you need? So many of our expenses, we just treat them differently. I think if you have a specific package that you need an SEO program for, every client needs to have that baked into there. Again, it\u2019s seamless to the client. The rate is the rate, but you need to be accounting for it.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I think with pricing, is just, again, stairstepping it overtime. If you\u2019re charging $50 an hour right now, maybe you\u2019re going to try out a flat rate. Maybe you\u2019re going to double your rate on your next project. Don\u2019t go for $50 an hour to quoting $5,000 right away. As you build up more competence, you can continuously increase your rate. I think a lot of people are like, \u201cJust increase your rate,\u201d and feel very cavalier about it. I think they underestimate the mental part of this, and the imposter complex, and everything else that comes up with it.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing is, too, the worst is going to happen, and someone\u2019s going to say no. If you can get right with your own money and how you manage your cash flow in your business, it makes it easier to price yourself in a way that not every project is do or die.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s really solid advice. I\u2019m asking myself, \u201cOkay, how does Maggie do this exactly?\u201d What does your business look like, Maggie? What do you charge for copywriting? How do you engage with your customers? What part of your business is coaching? How does that all breakout?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Our business, it\u2019s turned into a monolithic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. You have a partner as well, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> This isn\u2019t just you. You\u2019re doing a lot of stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah. Our business roughly breaks down into two components, is we have one component which is our agency, which is under the Scoop Industries\u2019 banner. That is we basically do content and tech. We do a lot of consulting. We also do a lot of implementation. Within that, from a copywriting perspective, we tend to focus more on content, and content marketing, versus all the sales copy.<\/p>\n<p>I can write a sales page. I write a pretty good sales page. I don\u2019t want to write sales pages all day long, so I try to limit them. For example, someone comes to us and they need a funnel created, we\u2019re doing the start to finish. We\u2019re doing the strategy. We\u2019re creating the content. We\u2019re doing the tech implementation. We\u2019re doing the testing. We\u2019re doing that completely from A to B.<\/p>\n<p>The reason I ended up with a business partner is because I kept partnering with this Brittany chick on all these projects, because they &#8230; was very compelling for our clients at the time to have it start to finish and for them not to manage us.<\/p>\n<p>Then, the other part of the business is we prefer the term consulting over coaching. We work with service business owners, so copywriters, designers, therapists, illustrators, you name it, tends to be a lot of creatives. We work with them on helping them grow a services business, so packaging, pricing, a lot of confidence. How do you show up? How do you hire your first team member? All those bits and pieces that are a bit of a mystery to us as business owners. We\u2019re really usually really good at what we do. We start out with that. Then, we start running a business, and we\u2019re like, \u201cOh man. I\u2019m in over my head.\u201d I\u2019ve been running a business for a long time. I\u2019ve always worked in consulting capacity, so that was a really natural addition to the business overall.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Maggie, you\u2019ve built this agency. It didn\u2019t happen overnight. I\u2019ve seen the question in our club, in our Facebook group, someone asked recently, \u201cHow do I do this?\u201d Because it sounded like they were moving that direction. They knew they wanted to go in that direction of building an agency, but like you said, there\u2019s so many stairs to get there. What are the first few stairs to move you in that direction?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> For me, I started off, like most of us do, straight up freelancer, and then I started taking on subcontractors and really establishing a brand and positioning the business. Then from there, we\u2019ve moved up the chain of really defining what we do and don\u2019t do as an agency. I think there\u2019s, a lot of times, a misunderstanding, an agency can do everything. It\u2019s like no. I think the best agencies are really specialized in what they do, but understanding the expectation. There is a higher expectation with that higher price tag that goes with the agency service.<\/p>\n<p>Then the other thing has been for us now is really solidifying our team, streamlining everything so we\u2019re profitable, bringing on full-time employees and really running it as an agency and not just like two chicks who run a business from their houses in their pajamas.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, this is a serious business for you guys. What does a typical project look like? You\u2019re not taking on small things for a few hundred dollars. You\u2019re talking about larger engagements.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> It\u2019s a really interesting question right now, Rob, because we\u2019re in a bit of flux. We have a lot of retainer work. I, to be honest, I love retainer work. I know a lot of people don\u2019t like it because it\u2019s boring, but when you have four payrolls to deal with, it\u2019s the best thing ever, because we know that baseline monthly expenses are handled, and we don\u2019t need to worry about it because we\u2019ve got these retainers lined up.<\/p>\n<p>We are taking on more projects at a local level. Those tend to be higher value projects because they\u2019re brick-and-mortars. They just want this digital marketing piece of their business handled. We\u2019ve started doing some web work, partnering with a web designer, and really doing things start to finish. I quoted on a project that was $10,000 plus last week, which was copy &#8230; in a website for a local business. I mean, that to me is really, really rewarding work because, number one, they\u2019re not talking to me about magical unicorn marketing. Number two, they really can see &#8230; We\u2019re able to up their game so, so quickly, and that money is really well spent, and really drives a lot of ROI quickly for them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s $10,000 for a website project, and then ultimately the goal be to have that client come back for another project and retain them as an ongoing client, maybe not a retainer client. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Generally, after we\u2019ve done one bigger project, I generally &#8230; We like to move them into a retainer, if they\u2019re a good fit. I always feel like the project is like our first three to five dates. Then, I decide if we\u2019re going to go steady or not, because sometimes people &#8230; I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah. We don\u2019t have room for you. Sorry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> The chemistry is not there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I personally, I\u2019m at the point in my life where my tolerance for certain things is fairly low. When something\u2019s not a fit, I\u2019m okay with walking away, even if there\u2019s a lot of money involved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> At one time, how many clients is your agency managing roughly?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I would say right now we\u2019re like in the 15 plus category.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I was counting how many clients I was involved with the other day. It was seven. It was very, very manageable, keeping in mind, there is more than just me working on things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yes. Seven sounds like a lot, but I guess it helps to have a team. I want to know how you manage your day, because you\u2019re doing a lot. Running this agency, you have your hand in a lot of different pots. How do you manage it and stay sane and avoid burnout? That\u2019s a lot of questions over there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s a lot of questions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Solve all of my problems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> In the interest of transparency &#8230; and I will totally walk you through how I manage things on a day-to-day basis. My business partner, Brittany, and I have done a really solid job, I will say, of us dividing and conquering on what functional areas of the operations of the business we handle.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t touch money. Well, I touch money, but I don\u2019t touch money. I don\u2019t manage our money on a day-to-day basis. I\u2019m not in charge of any of that kind of that functional operational stuff. I handle more of our marketing. That division of labor has been really, really positive. Again, if you don\u2019t have a business partner, you\u2019re probably going to have to do that all yourself. You\u2019re just going to have to get really real about how much you can actually do in a day.<\/p>\n<p>As part of that, make time to work on your business, not just in it. I know that\u2019s like the most tired advice, but this is the problem when you offer services, so many times we don\u2019t account for &#8230; You have to get your taxes to the accountant. You have to review your monthly bookkeeping. You have to go talk to the lawyer about contracts. That stuff takes up time in your day.<\/p>\n<p>Probably the biggest win I\u2019ve had in my day-to-day time management is making sure that I have at least Mondays and Fridays in my schedule for operations and marketing. It might be a little bit different in your business, but carving out time, even if it\u2019s half a day a week or couple days a month where you are working on the business. You\u2019re following up with referrals. You\u2019re doing the things to move the business ahead, and not just spending all your time heads down on client work and then poking up and going, \u201cOh man, I\u2019ve got no clients. I got problems.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think that takes a concerted effort, right, where it\u2019s like two hours a day or a day a week or whatever so that you\u2019re making sure that that pipeline always stays full.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah. You know, here\u2019s the thing. I know when I started doing this, I found it really, really challenging. A lot of it for me was like &#8230; Client service is really, really important to me. It\u2019s just like in my DNA, so I tend to be a bit of a people-pleaser with my clients in that way and like want to respond quickly. What I had to learn was when I scheduled that time &#8230; It is secret. It\u2019s the same way. It\u2019s like five o\u2019clock, I am off to eat dinner with my family, same thing. I treat it that way, because if I don\u2019t do that, the business does not move ahead.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Good stuff. Maggie, I want to back up a little bit because I think people are probably listening thinking, \u201cOkay. This is great. Maggie is running this agency. She\u2019s got employees. She\u2019s got a partner. They\u2019re doing these great projects.\u201d This isn\u2019t where you started.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Oh no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Can you tell us &#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> No. Definitely not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> &#8230; your origin story, how you became the superhero that you are today. Tell us how you got started.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I did all the things I was supposed to do as a early adult. I went to college. I went to college again. I graduated. I got a job. I found myself after a few generations working in a PR agency. I, from a very young age, literally, I was one of those annoying kids who always had business ideas, and would start a business. Like, \u201cWagon rides around the block, 10 cents. I\u2019m going to make perfume.\u201d My mother was horrified.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I was literally one of those entrepreneurial kids. When I chose to go into communications, I knew that that was something I could eventually do as a business. Then I went on my lovely, amazing year-long maternity leave here in Canada. I\u2019m sorry Americans. I essentially spent that year plotting my non-return to work. When my boss called me and was like, \u201cOkay. Let\u2019s talk about coming back.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not coming back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I actually gone so far as when I left, I packed &#8230; I had an office with a door, which I loved, but I packed everything up in my office and took it home, because I was like, \u201cYou guys might need this space,\u201d because I knew I wasn\u2019t setting foot back in that building. I didn\u2019t want a reason to have an out. I quit. I didn\u2019t have any clients. I hustled really, really hard for that first two to three months. I really, really focused in on the people I already knew in my professional network, people I had worked with in the tech industry for years that I was like, \u201cHey, I\u2019m consulting now. I\u2019m doing a lot of writing. I\u2019m doing PR. I\u2019m basically here to do whatever you need.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I took on some crappy projects. I totally took on some crappy projects, but I quickly learned. I had one thing written in a, quote, business plan. It was I wanted to make $4,000 a month. I thought, \u201cHey, if I can make $4,000 a month, this family of mine, we\u2019re going to be an easy street.\u201d I\u2019d reached that goal within, I think, it was eight weeks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Nice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> From there, I saw the potential to really grow. But I had a baby. I don\u2019t want a baby who had sleep problems, so I was just trying to &#8230; in survival mode. For a good solid eight years, I was kind of riding the wave, running another side business. Then one day I was like, \u201cI\u2019m really bored. I need to do something new,\u201d so I moved my business online. That has now morphed into what I do today with Scoop Industries.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t you say that your side business had something to do with knitting or am I imagining that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Paper crafts.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Literally, this is where people always go, \u201cThis so does not &#8230; I didn\u2019t see this one coming.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It does not compute.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Well, when I was on my year-long maternity leave, I was really, really bored. I\u2019ve always been really into journaling and photography, and so I took up scrapbooking. In typical Maggie fashion, I couldn\u2019t just leave it alone and have it be a hobby. I turned it into this like little crafting Empire where I was selling products and teaching classes. Then I started training other people who wanted to do this. I had a lot going on. I was making amazing money over there, but I just got tired of it like I tend to do and I needed to &#8230; I pieced out, handed off my one business to the partner, and was like, \u201cAll right. I\u2019m out. I\u2019m going to go do marketing now full-time all the time,\u201d because I was working way too much.<\/p>\n<p>I saw my son getting older. I was like, \u201cYou know what, I just want to have my summers peaceful. I don\u2019t want to be bringing all this stuff to host a retreat for 40 women who want to scrapbook. This is exhausting.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> All right, Maggie. I want to shift gears a little bit and go back to, I think, something Rob said about managing clients. You are great at that. It\u2019s, like you said, it comes naturally to you. What are some best practices that we can all benefit from hearing, again, or maybe for the first time, around dealing with clients, the good clients and maybe the difficult clients? Just tips that can make all of our lives easier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I love this question. Number one, totally think about your on-boarding experience, because what tends to happen for us is we get excited. We get a client, then we go, \u201cOh no. What\u2019s going to happen now?\u201d If you\u2019re going to set up one system in your business, this should be it, what needs to happen with that client the day after they sign the contract, two days later, write up for that first &#8230; especially if it\u2019s a bigger project, 30 days, 60 days, whatever it is, and figuring out all those touch points of the client, because there is nothing more stressful from the client\u2019s perspective than when they sign on that dotted line with you and everything kind of stops.<\/p>\n<p>You do not want them to have buyers\u2019 remorse and start this relationship on a negative note. You want to bring the wow factor right away. This can be getting everything to the most timely fashion, getting pre-work to them. Make this as a turnkey system that you know exactly those steps on a checklist you need to do every single time. Get a card in the mail, really make them feel like sigh of relief. \u201cThis money I just paid was worth every penny. I am in good hands.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If you think if you can do that, it really sets the tone of the relationship moving ahead, whereas if you get a little loose and sloppy with that part of it, it\u2019s harder to recover from it. I think the other thing is, especially if you work with retainer clients, is having set touch points with your clients that are even if you\u2019re not talking to them on the phone all the time, is that you\u2019re like, \u201cHey, can we have a quick monthly check in?\u201d Getting voice to voice with people. Again, even if you don\u2019t love it, really, really important.<\/p>\n<p>You always want them to feel like you\u2019ve got it handled and not do the what about. Because what happens when the what about happens, they\u2019re upset. We get defensive. Then things devolve from there. That\u2019s when things tend to be negative. I think managing up front with some really great &#8230; putting it in your calendar, check in on your clients, project manage X. Do all these little tiny acts all the time that the client knows you\u2019re listening.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing is, finally, when a client has gone sideways &#8230; I\u2019m a big fan of time and space. I think a lot of times, we want to respond really quickly. A lot of times, what I come to realize is I have all these different stories trapped up in my head from previous client experiences, and I start making assumptions or it triggers me, and then I come back little too harsh, or defensive. I tend to be kind of sarcastic, so I have to rain that in. Understanding that responding in the heat of the moment does not help you.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing is, too, I had a client situation a couple weeks ago that was getting a little sticky. She\u2019s like, \u201cCan we talk?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah. Let\u2019s get on Skype in 20 minutes.\u201d I mean, I didn\u2019t love it. I was scared of that conversation because it was going to be difficult, but we managed to get everything back on track, and she loves me again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Two follow up questions to that. When you got on this call with this sticky situation, how do you manage that call? Do you have any tactics for managing those sticky, uncomfortable calls?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got an amazing resource for you, which I totally think you should link up to the show notes. I have a client who is a speaker. Her specialty is difficult conversations. We work on her content all the time, so I get all these little secret weapons. I think one of the things I\u2019ve had to learn &#8230; and I think this is not just businesses. It\u2019s just with my husband, with my son, is sometimes it\u2019s okay to be silent. I think a lot of times, we want to cut people off, we want to jump in. Just let them talk. You don\u2019t have to have a response to every single thing. I think in that specific situation, my client just really, really wanted to be heard. Honestly, I had to get really truthful with her about a few things.<\/p>\n<p>I said like, \u201cListen, when you do this, this is a bit of a problem. Here\u2019s why. It\u2019s really challenging for me to serve you in the best way when you do that.\u201d I think if you can turn it around and make how you\u2019re feeling &#8230; Don\u2019t say, \u201cI feel X.\u201d It\u2019s more about, \u201cThis is the impact on the work I do for you,\u201d then, actually, it gets through. That little turnaround, I think, makes a big difference. It\u2019s like, \u201cI cannot be of the greatest service to you when X is happening.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. I see that in my business every once in a while where I\u2019ve taken on a new client. It\u2019s embarrassing, but you say, \u201cHey, I\u2019m going to start working this week.\u201d I start the work, but I don\u2019t necessarily follow-up with an email that says, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve started on it, or whatever.\u201d Two or three days later, as I\u2019m going through your research or whatever, I get an email. It\u2019s like, \u201cHey, Rob. How\u2019s it going?\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cI should know they\u2019re going to want an update.\u201d They just want to be kept into the loop. They\u2019re not angry, but they want to make sure that you\u2019re actually paying attention. They\u2019ve just written a check, and they want to make sure they\u2019re getting value for it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I mean, honestly, giving them &#8230; We use base camp in our business. I love base camp because they have visibility into what\u2019s happening when it\u2019s happening. Even if we\u2019re not talking all the time, they can go in and see the team has completed that task, and that things are moving along.<\/p>\n<p>For example, I had a customer interview this morning for one of my clients where I work on case studies. One of my tasks this afternoon is to let that client know I talked to their client, and that they can expect the draft on X date now. Such a small touch point, but they\u2019re not left wondering with something that\u2019s so important, me talking to their client, if it happened, did it go well, all those questions that are going to come up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. I definitely &#8230; There\u2019s room for improvement there. I\u2019m going to just dig in the weeds a little bit more before we move on. You\u2019re talking about on-boarding. This is for me, personally. I do get really excited. I feel like I have on-boarding under control. But where I fall apart a bit is in between projects with the same client. You do a good job, and they want you for the next project a couple months later. Then, I feel like I &#8230; not that I slack off, but a loosen up on the on-boarding for this second project because I\u2019ve already gathered some information. I\u2019ve done some research. I feel like there\u2019s got to be a better way to do at it, but I don\u2019t necessarily think I need to do the rigid on-boarding process I did initially.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Kira, I think this is such a great question, because I think this is a really natural &#8230; This is such a natural thing. We\u2019re like, \u201cI got it handled. Let\u2019s not create more &#8230;\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Why would you create more work for the client? I think acknowledging to the client saying, \u201cHey, you know what, because we\u2019ve done this before, I\u2019ve got X, Y, and Z, but what I really could use from you is A, B and C.\u201d I think if you can make this, the process, seamless but make sure you do that reset with them so they know what to expect &#8230; Also, too, like maybe you don\u2019t need anything additional, maybe at that point, it\u2019s just a matter of communicating the timeline and setting fresh expectations for this specific project.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Okay, Maggie. Let\u2019s shift gears again, a little bit. You\u2019ve done a lot of work as a copywriter. You\u2019ve been very active in our group giving advice to writers, usually about things like process, but I\u2019m curious what you think a lot of operators are doing wrong. What could we be doing better &#8230; Maybe it is process. Maybe it\u2019s outside of process &#8230; to just level up our game just a bit?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Systems, 100%. Systems and frameworks. Be honest, this stuff does not come easily to me. I am like your classic creative copywriter. I went into writing because I like writing, not because I like systems.<\/p>\n<p>I think this is where if you can look at &#8230; Okay. When I do a website package, how can I streamline every step of this so that I know exactly what step needs to happen? Do I have standard pre-work? Do I have a standard process that I go through with every client when I talk to them and I interview them the first time? Every step of the way, what are the systems you need?<\/p>\n<p>These don\u2019t have to be fancy. I see so many people wasting so much time creating these beautiful flowcharts, I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my gosh, that was like 10 hours of your life you\u2019re never getting back.\u201d Put it into Google Doc. Put it in a folder so that every time you\u2019re going to do this, its handled.<\/p>\n<p>I also think, too, once you\u2019ve done that and you start to refine that &#8230; Rob, you shared an article yesterday in the group which I thought was really great and had really pointed out a few things that have really helped me up-level my business is just having standard frameworks, so being able to say to the client like, \u201cThis is the process we follow when we write your website. We do storytelling. We do content strategy. Here\u2019s what you can expect at each step.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Even in the sales process, laying out your process, and not letting the client dictate it really helps you command more money at the end of the day. If you have loose systems, formalize them so that you can sell those as part of the process so that when you say, \u201cOh, the price is X,\u201d the client doesn\u2019t cringe and go, \u201cWhat?\u201d They understand the value of what you\u2019re delivering to them, and the results they can expect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Joanna Wiebehad mentioned something similar around owning that process, owning your system and your frameworks so that the client isn\u2019t running your project for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s so true with copy. I think a client can think they\u2019re the expert very, very easily. I mean, they\u2019re a great writer, or their cousin is, or someone else. You\u2019re like, \u201cNo. This is how we do things, A, B, C, D, E. The end.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Maggie, you have your hand on the pulse of content, copywriting space, strategy space, online marketing. You know what\u2019s happening through your clients and through your own work. Where do you see some opportunities in the marketplace for the creative copywriters that are maybe listening right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> This question came up in the group yesterday. I think one of the areas that I don\u2019t think enough copywriters are paying attention to is we are in the video age, learning how to write video scripts, help clients plan out talking points, how to help them share their story, parse out the relevant pieces, and put that together in a way that is actionable and compelling for their audience. I think that is an art. I think it\u2019s something that a lot of copywriters, it could be an amazing revenue stream to add on to what they\u2019re already doing, or to attract new clients.<\/p>\n<p>Video is not going anywhere. I mean, I\u2019ve been talking a lot with clients. They want to start doing Facebook Lives, so that they don\u2019t know where to start. I\u2019m like, \u201cHere\u2019s a framework to help you plan it out.\u201d I can collaborate with them on that. It\u2019s not just them getting on, not creating that stickiness with reviewers, and just having it be a waste of time.<\/p>\n<p>I think the other thing is, too, don\u2019t afraid. If you see an opportunity in your client\u2019s business, where they can be doing something better, they could add something to the mix, based on what you know, suggest it. So many times, we\u2019re so afraid to feel like we\u2019re pushing, or we don\u2019t want to be sleazy and give them the upsell, but that\u2019s where the best opportunities are always going to be is with your existing clients. Don\u2019t assume they don\u2019t have money. Don\u2019t assume they don\u2019t need help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> One system that I think almost every writer, and maybe even businessperson needs help with is a system for getting more referrals, from happy clients from friends, neighbors. What sorts of things do you do and you help your clients do to create a system where they\u2019re getting great referrals that provide ongoing work for the future?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Remember when we talked about that on-boarding process? You also need an off-boarding process with the clients you love. Don\u2019t ask clients you don\u2019t love to refer you. Ask the ones you love. Especially if you do a lot of project work, when you\u2019re wrapping up, make sure that you\u2019re not just collecting the testimonial from them, or getting feedback, that you\u2019re actually taking an extra step to say, \u201cHey, you know what, I\u2019m always looking for clients, amazing clients like you,\u201d however you want to phrase it. You\u2019re the writer, guys, and inviting them to introduce you to other people.<\/p>\n<p>I think we shy away from asking for referrals because, again, it feels pushy. I will tell you this, my business to this day, relies so heavily on referrals that I will always ask for the referral. I never hesitate to do it, because it\u2019s so much better than having to put on pants and go network with people, or stand in a room and feel awkward with a cocktail, or cold calling. Oh my gosh, if my business relied on cold calling, I\u2019d be working at Jamba Juice, seriously.<\/p>\n<p>Asking for the referral is the least scary of all the options in my book. If you are at a point where you\u2019re like, \u201cHey, you know what, I don\u2019t even know where to start with referrals,\u201d a couple really quick things. Number one, make a big list of everyone you\u2019ve ever worked with, all your past clients, past collaborators. My first client when I started freelancing came from a college professor because I let him know I was in business. So many times, we don\u2019t tell people what we\u2019re doing. \u201cHow\u2019s business?\u201d \u201cGood.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> If people don\u2019t know what you do, they can\u2019t refer you. There\u2019s so many people, I can guarantee for almost each and every one of us, is there is so many people in your personal network, and in your extended professional network that want to see you succeed, that if you just send &#8230; Warm them up if you haven\u2019t talked to them in a while. Don\u2019t send it randomly to someone from three years ago. If you send a quick email and say, \u201cHey, you know what, I\u2019m on the lookout for this type of client. See anyone, let me know. The biggest thing with this is to make this really easy. All you have to do is connect us by email, and I\u2019ll take care of the rest.\u201d Make it a very easy ask that all they have to do is send an email. Okay. Most people can do that for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> When do you do that? Do you ask when you send the final invoice? Are you asking in the middle of the process? Is it as you\u2019re off-boarding and delivering the content that you\u2019ve promised? When do you ask for the referrals?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I would honestly, I always like to make sure everything is paid for before I ask for anything. I\u2019m also an upfront payment kind of gal, though, so I don\u2019t have final invoices.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I feel very strongly about that. We can talk about that in a second. If you\u2019re doing a lot of retainer work, this might be just something like, \u201cHey,\u201d twice a year, you\u2019re going to ask clients that you\u2019ve never asked before for a referral. I just worked with one of our mentoring clients on this. She does an annual survey. That\u2019s part of the process she goes through.<\/p>\n<p>If you have project clients, just baking this in to be the last step, like, \u201cHey. I loved working with you. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.\u201d Then, that\u2019s when you could ask. I would make sure that drafts are delivered, everything is tied up neatly with a bow in this kind of &#8230; your very last step in the process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, Maggie, because you mentioned it, we have got to ask you before we wrap. You take your full payment before you start the project?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Either full payment or milestone payments. I never deliver final anything without money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> I don\u2019t believe in final payments. I don\u2019t. I just don\u2019t. I\u2019ve been burned too many times. If it\u2019s a project under 3,000-ish, I ask for payment in full. If it\u2019s a bigger thing, it\u2019ll be milestone payments along the way, but typically those payments end long before the project ends. If that\u2019s a deal-breaker for people, I\u2019m not a great fit for you, because me getting paid is more important than anything else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Can you give a rough idea of the type of number, the rate on a project that would require three milestones and three payments throughout it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Let\u2019s say it\u2019s a $9,000 project, 3,000 upfront. Day 30 day, day 60.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay. Cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Just make it really simple. I try to get the bigger amount upfront. It\u2019s been funny. I used to bill like 30 days till I was paid later. As soon as I switched this, I expected a lot of pushback. Honestly, it\u2019s only come up once or twice. Most people are like, \u201cOkay.\u201d If you\u2019ve positioned yourself well enough as the expert, they will do it for you. I will say this, if you work with big corporate clients, it is harder, but I\u2019ve definitely pulled it off.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s great, Maggie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s amazing. Rob and I are making some changes in our businesses.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m updating my terms and conditions on my site right now. There\u2019s a ton of stuff that we really could be asking, especially when we\u2019re talking about processes. You\u2019ve done this so many times. It would be awesome to have you back maybe just to do a show entirely about processes, and really stepping through what it is, but because we\u2019re out of time now, we won\u2019t ask for more than that. Where can people find you online if they want to find more about you and read some of the work that you\u2019ve done?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> The Service Business Success Show. We talk in a very real way, the same with the Copywriting Club talks about running copywriting business. We talk about just running a business based on clients. You can also find us over at scoopindustries.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I love your podcast, Maggie. I love listening to the two of you, just real talk. You set us all straight. You keep us all grounded. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time coming back again to record another episode. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Thank you so much, Maggie.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Maggie:<\/strong> Thanks, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:\u00a0<\/strong>Before we end the podcast, we just want to tell you about our sponsor, Airstory. Airstory is an application designed to help you write faster and it does a few things really well. It makes collaborating with others on your team easier. So if you work with clients or other team members on projects, you\u2019ll love the way that you can interact within your project documents.<\/p>\n<p>But there are two things that we really like about Airstory that you won\u2019t get with Word or Google Docs. The first is the way that it let\u2019s you organize information into cards.<\/p>\n<p>If you refer to research or other information when writing blog posts or websites or sales pages, you\u2019ll love the way that you can organize bits of information or entire articles into a card file that you can then drag and drop into your document.<\/p>\n<p>And if you do your research online, Airstory\u2019s chrome extension lets you cut and save information directly into Airstory. It\u2019s pretty cool.<\/p>\n<p>Plus Airstory has a library of templates that you can use on different projects. So let\u2019s say you\u2019ve been hired to write a sales page or an email sequence and you don\u2019t have any experience or you want additional inspiration for the project. You can go into the template library, find a template for what you\u2019re working on and use it to start your document.<\/p>\n<p>Maybe best of all, you can try it now for free. In fact, one project at Airstory is always free.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re a professional writer, there\u2019s so much here that can help you. Check it out at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve been listening to\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>\u00a0with\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira Hug<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob Marsh<\/a>. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you\u2019ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, and full transcript, and links to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/bit.ly\/2irulZp\">our free Facebook community<\/a>, visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\">thecopywriterclub.com<\/a>. We\u2019ll see you next episode.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter and business strategist, Maggie Patterson joins\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast\u00a0to talk about growing a sustainable consulting business. This is actually the second time Maggie has joined us to chat, but [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[53,3],"class_list":["post-724","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-maggie-patterson","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #37: Don&#039;t Build a Course with Maggie Patterson - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"[interview] with copywriter Maggie Patterson about creating systems, building a platform, why you shouldn&#039;t build a course, getting more done and more --&gt;\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-maggie-patterson\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #37: Don&#039;t Build a Course with Maggie Patterson - 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