Gravity<\/a>\nFull Transcript:<\/h3>\n
The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for this special in-between-i-sode as we chat with copywriter and copy chief, Kevin Rogers, about his journey from standup comedian to highly sought after copywriter. The joke formula that became his secret for writing great hooks, mentoring other copywriters, and a special event he is putting together this Fall.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Hey Kevin. Hey Rob. How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Hey guys.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Hey.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Kevin, it\u2019s great to have you here.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Man, it\u2019s great to be here with you guys. Appreciate you having me. This will be a lot of fun.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Yeah, we\u2019ve actually had you on our list for a while, Kevin. Wanted to talk to you. You\u2019ve got a lot of stuff going on, but let\u2019s jump in maybe and start with your story, where you came from and how you got into copywriting?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> It felt like a miracle when I found copywriting. It was like lightning striking twice in the best way in your life because I spent 10 years as a standup comedian and that was such a miracle thing to experience. A high school dropout, just had no direction. I was restless and I really hated, at one point, showing up to school every day. It just felt stupid. I don\u2019t know what … This isn\u2019t for me. I wasn\u2019t going to pursue college, and I just thought it was so much cooler to work at my job stocking shelves at grocery stores like, \u201cIf I could do this all day, I\u2019d have it made.\u201d<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Aim high.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s right. Quickly came to the reality that it\u2019d be good to have something going on in life. \u201cI don\u2019t know what I\u2019ll do.\u201d Was funny enough, I was really good, I understood comedy and I loved getting laughs. My mother inspired that when I was a kid. She was my biggest … As mom\u2019s are supposed to do, they love when you\u2019re funny. I always had some kind of bit working, and she would, when friends would come over to the house, she would have me do my latest bit, be like an impression or I\u2019d be wearing my little cowboy outfit and I\u2019d do a Western accent.<\/p>\nThey were all stoned because it was the 70s and so they were a great audience, and I was killing. It really embedded in me at a young age that, \u201cWow, this feels good. I like this whole laughing stuff.\u201d It was perfect timing because in the 80s, all the HBO comedy specials started coming out. They always had Carlin and some people like that doing their yearly specials, but I don\u2019t know if you remember Rob. Kira, you may be a little younger for this, but I\u2019m 47. I don\u2019t know your age, Rob, but in the 80s these great specials were coming out, these Dangerfield, Rodney Dangerfield specials, and it was the first time anybody had seen Jerry Seinfeld and Sam Kinison, and Bill Hicks, all these amazing comics.<\/p>\n
We just soaked those things up and recorded them with our VCRs, and wore those tapes out. I could do everybody\u2019s act from those specials, so we\u2019d go to parties and everybody would have me request all these different bits. What was interesting was, obviously I loved getting the laughs but I found two things. One was I started to really dissect why people were laughing and more importantly why they weren\u2019t laughing sometimes. I\u2019d realized, \u201cOh, you know what? I tried to follow that Seinfeld thing with that Kinison thing and that\u2019s not going to work.\u201d I was always dissecting, reverse engineering the science behind getting laughs.<\/p>\n
The other thing I learned was, it was much more exciting when something spontaneous would happen in the moment, rather than just sort of repeating other people\u2019s material so that got me excited about potentially writing my own stuff and really just being in the moment with comedy. That\u2019s how that started and basically on a dare, did an open mic and was hooked. That was it. It was three minutes that changed my life. It was supposed to be five, and I told the owner, \u201cFive minutes? I need like 20.\u201d My first time up there, they\u2019re like, \u201cYou\u2019re an idiot.\u201d<\/p>\n
I get up there and I\u2019m like, \u201cGoodnight.\u201d It was like three minutes, but I came off stage a changed man and that was it. Fortunate to get the house emcee gig in that club. Didn\u2019t realize at the time how valuable stage time was and so I was doing eight shows a night after four months of starting and did that for like a year, which was incredible. Made lifelong friendships there with guys like Jim Brewer who you might know from Saturday Night Live.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Oh wow.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah. That was his own club. Billy Gardell used to come there and he\u2019s still one of my best friends. It was just an amazing run and I did about 10 years professionally, about 7 years straight on the road, and started wanting to do other stuff. Went in the gym, I had to make the really tough choice to stop because frankly I didn\u2019t know anything about business or marketing and I was of the mindset that success just happened to people. I didn\u2019t realize that you could engineer such a thing. I didn\u2019t see it happening for me in stand up because I just never clicked with the important people.<\/p>\nI felt like they were part of this other culture that I wasn\u2019t welcome in. Some of it was self-destructive, like I threw a star search addition in front of Ed McMahon because I hated what he said in the beginning, which is, \u201cTonight we might find the next Carrot Top.\u201d I was like, \u201cYeah. Like hell we will. Not during my five minutes we won\u2019t.\u201d Broke every rule and went up and swore, and did my set but I wanted to kill the room. All these comics were going up and not being themselves and it was really annoying me. I was like, \u201cScrew that. I do this for the moment and I want to kill the room. These people came here and look at them. They\u2019re showered. I want to kill this room,\u201d and so that was always my role, just kill the room, so that was it.<\/p>\n
I got out when I wasn\u2019t getting any signals that somebody was going to come with their magic wand and give me this amazing career. Glad I did because it forced me to go legit, doing air quotes, and did a lot of oddball jobs. I was a bellman, I was a bartender and that led me to copywriting in a strange way. Ultimately that\u2019s when I discovered it, but I\u2019m sure you guys and everybody listening, you just feel like, \u201cWhat is this?\u201d I used to tingle. I still get chills thinking about when I first discovered copywriting and started to understand it, and started reading Carlton and Halbert and Bencivenga and just going, \u201cThis is magic. I can\u2019t believe this has existed all along and I never knew about it,\u201d and just became obsessed.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> I totally relate to that. I remember seeing ads in a CA magazine, targeted advertising agencies, but they were by Wall Street Journal and they profiled all of these great writers and designers. I remember reading these ads and thinking, \u201cWait a minute. You can do this?\u201d Like the light bulb moment. I\u2019m like, \u201cThis is… Yeah, I want to do this. This is for me.\u201d<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I remember the first time I ever thought it would be an amazing thing to do creative work like that. I was already doing standup but standup is a very individual art. Standups are terrible improvers, in actual improve, like part of a team because we\u2019re just looking … We all want the punch lines and so there\u2019s no…<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Not a team player.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah. No reciprocity, no yes\/and. It\u2019s just, \u201cLook at me!\u201d It\u2019s just like everybody is trying to get there faster, but I remember, Rob, seeing the movie with Tom Hanks and Jackie Gleason called Nothing In Common<\/em>. In that movie. Tom Hanks\u2019s character was a creative director at an ad agency. Just seeing him and his team create ads and sit around and throw pencils into the ceiling and and do all this creative brainstorming, I thought, \u201cWow, that would be the greatest way to spend a day, even better than stocking shelves.\u201d<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Barely, just barely.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong>Yeah, it would be even better and now it\u2019s essentially what I get to do with hundreds of people every day so it\u2019s fantasy personified.<\/p>\nKira:\u00a0<\/strong>Kevin, once he found out about copywriting and you found a magical one to jump into it, what did those early days look like for you? How did you land those first few jobs and what did those look like?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was a lot of fits and starts. It was like, \u201cAll right, discover it, get excited,\u201d and the only real course out there at the time was the Masterson course, which is still a great course, so devoured that. Sent in my restaurant letter, already was starting to feel a little too formal to me that the whole getting notes from… I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s like, I just felt like whatever this is it\u2019s going to come from within and I have to somehow be in a position to do it in order to understand who am I as a copywriter? Then the tricky part is, well, who\u2019s going to pay you to do it or who\u2019s going to even let you do it?<\/p>\nI got real lucky when I found out another friend of mine who I knew from comedy, who\u2019s also a great television writer named Vin Montello, was taking the same course. Just though a fluke, I learned that he was doing it and so we immediately connected on it. Vin was a little ahead of me, even though I had been studying it a little longer. He wasted no time getting people to pay him to do it because he\u2019s a smart business guy so Vin showed me the ropes on how to get clients. He introduced me to a thing called the copywriting board, which was an amazing place, which I basically modeled Copy Chief after as far as the forum goes.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll tell you exactly how my first gig went down. Vin told me, \u201cHey. There\u2019s a guy in the copywriting board looking for an autoresponder series. Tell him your normal price is this, but you\u2019ll write all five emails at this price as a bulk discount or something.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cAll right. Perfect. I\u2019ll go do it.\u201d I said, \u201cOnly one thing. Well, what\u2019s an autoresponder?\u201d Literally, I kind of heard of it but I didn\u2019t even know and he explained it to me and so the guy says, \u201cThat sounds like a good offer. Let me see some samples.\u201d I literally, that night, sat there at my kitchen table and wrote out a made up autoresponder series for a golf product and I don\u2019t even golf. I\u2019ve literally golfed once in my life, but it just seemed like I can write about golf. I don\u2019t know why, but chose golf.<\/p>\n
I did it and it was really fun to write, and I turned it into the guy and he hired me. He said, \u201cI want you to know that your price was a little higher than some of the other offers but I can tell that you really get it.\u201d It was really eye-opening. It showed me a couple things. Number one, other people charge less than you might expect. Number two, not overthinking stuff is sometimes the best method. Go with your gut and a lot of times it\u2019ll be right. If you\u2019ve been studying copy and you really are passionate about it, you\u2019ve probably got enough knowledge to get going. We all freak out and think it\u2019s this big formal thing to actually get a gig. I\u2019m not saying lie or fake it to make it, or any of that, but I think we\u2019re all very guilty of way overthinking what it takes to become a professional in this industry.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> Kevin, I\u2019ve heard you somewhere talk about how the thing that rocketed you into the limelight was what you did around hooks and it was a joke formula, or something like that that you turned into an e-book. Tell us a little bit about that process and where the idea from that came and what you\u2019ve done with it.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Well, the first thing that really helped me was John Carlton, like getting into John\u2019s world is the thing that fast tracked me to a higher level.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> How did you do that? How did you connect with John?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Well, I obsessed on John. I got to this point. I think your listeners will relate to this. So now I\u2019m working as a copywriter. I had that first gig, that autoresponder series, and basically never not had a client after that. There would be gaps, but it\u2019s amazing how fast it happens. I\u2019ll tell you this. When a copywriter should be a copywriter, two things happen. They get good. Really good, really fast. Within two or three years, are shockingly well off in their career. It does not take a long, long time to be in the flow and working and getting paid well to do this, if it\u2019s for you. I\u2019ll avoid the sidebar, but John was my obsession, so I was working as a freelancer, but I\u2019m reading, and it must be even worse now because there weren\u2019t that many resources then.<\/p>\nThere was the copywriting board. That alone had reams of like mind blowing stuff, but then Clayton Makepeace had his blog at the time, which was just crazy how good the content was. He had Daniel Levis and Carline Anglade Cole writing articles. I\u2019d be halfway through a client\u2019s sales letter, and I\u2019d read something on one of those places, and it would be so mind blowing to me. Suddenly I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh. Yeah, I get it,\u201d and I\u2019d feel like if I don\u2019t incorporate that tactic, I\u2019m not doing my best work. I would kick over the anthill and start the sales letter all over again just so I could implement that tactic. It was really messing me up because it was taking twice as long to do jobs, so trying to implement what I was learning in real time was actually hazardous, although necessary.<\/p>\n
What I decided was, \u201cAll right. Here\u2019s what I\u2019m going to do. I\u2019ve got to get rid of the overwhelm, and I\u2019m going to choose one great copywriter, and I\u2019m going to study only them,\u201d because my theory was if I can get half as good somehow as one of these great copywriters, I\u2019ll be really good. I\u2019ll be better than 90% of the people out there if I can just get half as good as one of these legends. I pretty easily made the choice of studying only John and turning off everything else just because John\u2019s writing really resonated with me. I found it very exciting. His kick ass marketing copywriting secrets of the marketing rubble I\u2019d listen to over and over and over in my car.<\/p>\n
John was my guy, but there was not a lot of Carlton out there at the time. There was no simple writing system. He had no course. It was just like bits and pieces of stuff that was on YouTube. I would go to marketing events or copywriting events and all I wanted to talk about was Carlton. I would ask people, \u201cHey, do you have any Carlton stuff that I …\u201d I remember Rachel Rof\u00e9 had his collective letters. It was like the equivalent of being a deadhead and bootlegging. I\u2019d get something like that, and they were like, \u201cOh my God.\u201d It was like a gold mine. You wouldn\u2019t see me for three days.<\/p>\n
When I finally got into John\u2019s world, was earning enough money to buy into his forum, I wasted no time trying to shine and get his attention, and offer a lot of value in there through a few little favors I did for John. He was going out of town, and he said, \u201cWho wants to take over the critiques this week,\u201d and I jumped on that. When I had his audience, I just wanted one thing from him. I said, \u201cJohn, all I want is if you could look over a couple of my pieces and just tell me, do I even know what I\u2019m doing?\u201d I was at that imposter syndrome stage of my career where it was like, \u201cPeople are paying me and they\u2019re getting results, but what if I don\u2019t even know what I\u2019m… What if I\u2019ve just been lucky?\u201d<\/p>\n
John read my stuff, and he said, \u201cYou know, there\u2019s a few things I would maybe do differently but overall I can see that you\u2019ve got the goods and you know what you\u2019re doing.\u201d That was all it took for me. When I had John\u2019s stamp of approval, I was like, \u201cAll right. Lights out. No more hesitation.\u201d Things really took off after that. That\u2019s short story of how the Carlton thing went down. Mentors are everything. To really get the best value out of a mentor relationship, you have to have what I call the mentee mindset. What it does is it forces you to reassess where you are and how dedicated you\u2019ve been and what kind of moves you\u2019ve been making.<\/p>\n
Just like signing up with a mentor makes you better instantly because you\u2019re sending a signal to yourself that you\u2019re worth the investment, and that alone is really life-changing. That was a huge first step so then I was at the point in my career where five, six, seven years in and things are great, progressing. The client work keeps getting better. The money keeps getting better, but I keep finding myself every December as I look back on my year saying the same thing, which is, \u201cThis is all great, but I really need to get my own thing going at some point. I can probably only do this client work thing for so long because it\u2019s unscalable,\u201d but I didn\u2019t know what that was.<\/p>\n
I was starting to experiment with some products, did like warrior special offers and really rinky-dink stuff that at least got me in the groove of creating products and seeing how they resonated back in the day. I have no idea what it\u2019s like there now, but it was a cool platform to just test out your ability to deliver a product. I needed a bonus for one of the products. I can\u2019t remember what it was. I just had this idea. John had taught me, he\u2019s like, \u201cWhy aren\u2019t you talking about the standup stuff? That would be a great way for people to remember you. You have to understand that so many people would find that fascinating and want to hear about it.\u201d<\/p>\n
I was like, \u201cOh yeah. Wow. That makes sense,\u201d but I learned to not talk about standup because it would always cost me real jobs so I wasn\u2019t even talking about it. John was the one who said, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you write an article about it and I\u2019ll put you as a guest poster on the guest author on the blog,\u201d his legendary blog. I was the first ever guest post on his blog. It was an amazing honor. People really loved hearing about the stand up. I was like, \u201cOkay. Wow. There\u2019s something going here.\u201d When I needed a bonus for one of these small offers, I thought, \u201cWell, that\u2019d be cool. I\u2019ll take a joke formula and I\u2019ll change it to be a sales hook formula.\u201d<\/p>\n
Honestly, to be totally transparent, and again, this is that not overthinking thing, I didn\u2019t actually have the joke formula. I just knew what a good salesman formula was, and I knew there must be a joke formula similar to it. I was going on my experience and all the things I had sort of instinctively learned as a standup to guide this thing, but I didn\u2019t even have an actual joke formula when I first released it. I just skipped straight to the salesman formula part, said it was based on a joke formula. It was identity struggle discovery results. It was good. People resonated with it. I got a lot of good feedback on it, but I\u2019d sort of tucked it away. It was just a little made up bonus.<\/p>\n
Then, life-changing moment number whatever, Brian Lee invites me to speak at his event called SAM, Sales Advertising and Marketing, based on, it was a Ted style event in Park City Utah. This is back in probably 2012. It was very exciting. I hadn\u2019t thought about even speaking at a conference, and I thought, \u201cWhat will I teach?\u201d I had three rules for myself once I accepted. I said, \u201cAll right. I got three rules for this 18 minutes. Number one, I\u2019m going to do my time.\u201d<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> No, \u201cGive me 20 minutes,\u201d and then only fill three.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I was actually more afraid of going over. I didn\u2019t want to be that guy. Nothing worse than comics who don\u2019t respect the time. They\u2019re disrespecting the other comics and everything so I was like, \u201cI\u2019m not going to get up there and go over.\u201d Ironically Rob, I did end up going a little short, hilariously. Rule number two was I\u2019m going to get three laughs, and rule number three was I\u2019m going to teach the most actionable thing they hear over this two-day conference. That was my criteria, and I think I did it but I was the last speaker of the event. I didn\u2019t know how to take that-<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> A lot of pressure, yeah.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I was like, \u201cIs this an honor or is this…\u201d Well, at this point, everybody would be so tired, Kevin can blow it and nobody will mind, right?\u201d I didn\u2019t know how to take it. It was a lot of speakers because it was 18 minutes each. It was in the theater. The stage was beautiful, and they did a really cool thing. They would have a marketing talk and then they would have a musician go up and play a song or two. It was this really cool mix and variety of different stuff so it never felt tedious for the crowd. Although, at the end of two long days, everybody\u2019s brain is just fried. It did really well, and I taught…<\/p>\nI don\u2019t remember. I think I called it then like the KLT formula. It was all about how to generate know, like and trust with your audience. I probably should\u2019ve just stuck with that because it really resonated. I\u2019ll tell you something interesting, a little side lesson. People started referring to me after that as \u201cThe thing Kevin teaches: know, like and trust.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cI didn\u2019t invent that.\u201d That\u2019s been around for years, but because I owned it, and I gave it a title, and I taught it my way, people instantly started calling me the \u201cknow, like and trust\u201d guy. I was like, \u201cOh. That\u2019s eye-opening.\u201d Another great lesson here. Don\u2019t think that because something\u2019s been taught before that you can\u2019t teach it a new way and sort of own it. It\u2019s really powerful.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> After that happened, a lot of things changed. One more great lesson was totally overthinking the book, planning it out for six months, bought some coaching from Dean Jackson, went to his Mastermind and he was just exploring his 90 minute book thing, and said, \u201cI want everybody in here to do one.\u201d I realized mine was done, just needed to put the thing out, and so instead of writing the book, like going to lock myself in a cabin and smoke a pipe for six months to write the stupid thing, I just transcribed a talk I\u2019d given on the 60 second sales. I gave it that name, put the cover on the book and life changed dramatically after that.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Kevin, it sounds like this hook really changed your business dramatically, like you said. Do you think new copywriters, or maybe even all copywriters, need to figure out what their thing is whether it\u2019s their formula or their method, in order to really become this … We all want to become authority figures and stand out. Is that what we all need?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> 100%, 100%. I\u2019ll tell you this, I will put a caveat on it. You do not have to become an authority to succeed in this business. However, if you want to really own it and call the shots and get top dollar from top level clients, you have to do it. There are a lot of shy writers, very introverted. I\u2019m an introvert. I\u2019ve learned the art of extraversion but I\u2019m at heart an introvert. I get very drained after long stretches surrounded by a lot of people. I need to power down, but if you\u2019re just not going to do the authority stuff, you don\u2019t want to be in the spotlight, you can still have a great career.<\/p>\nHowever, doing some authority stuff will teach you a lot about yourself. You\u2019ll be sending signals to yourself that you\u2019re worth it, you\u2019re special, you deserve to be paid attention to, you have something valuable to teach. It\u2019s exciting to take all this knowledge that we procure along the way to becoming good copywriters and being able to share it and teach it and light up somebody\u2019s brain who\u2019s a couple of steps behind you on this journey. To be an expert in something, you only need about 10% more knowledge than the person you\u2019re teaching. You\u2019re their expert, so again, I\u2019m not saying this to cheapen the gravitas it takes to do it well, but again, I think people wait around too long for some signal from the heavens or something that it\u2019s time for them to go out and teach.<\/p>\n
You should be teaching all the time. It\u2019s the easiest and most powerful way to create content. Yes, Kira, to answer your question, every copywriter needs to do it. You may not stumble on it immediately like I did. I got a little lucky, but the truth is I\u2019d been blogging for years before I had a reason to blog. I just had this innate sense that it would be really valuable for me and hopefully a few readers if I shared what I was learning along the way so I started a blog because I felt like you\u2019re supposed to have a blog. I would basically write endlessly about John Carlton about how amazing he was.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> A fan boy blog.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah. That\u2019s basically what it was, but people really resonated with it. I had 300 subscribers for the longest time to my blog and I\u2019d get between five and ten comments on a post, but it really taught me what resonated. It gives you a through line when you start to look back and go, \u201cAll right. Nobody cared at all when I talked about that, even though I thought it sounded genius when it wrote it. Nobody cared at all,\u201d and something sort of unrelated to copy got a huge response and maybe there\u2019s more there or more meat on that bone. 100% need to be creating dialogue with your audience no matter how new you are to this.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Kevin, you\u2019ve done a lot of coaching with writers who were building a platform for themselves. How would they get started in your opinion? Is it starting a blog? Is it writing a book? Is it something else now? Is it a combination of all the above? What\u2019s the best way to do that?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I think the best way to do it is to just go where the need is. The hardest part is what\u2019s going to be my thing? I call it a bat signal talent. Here\u2019s how I describe it. It\u2019s not the only thing you do, but it\u2019s one thing that you do particularly well and really enjoy. That\u2019s key. You have to have fun doing it. You have to like it. You should also combine with your other experience. We can\u2019t all just be copywriters and all we talk about is copywriting principles, because that has been talked about to death. What\u2019s that other thing you bring into it? For me it was standup. Well, that\u2019s an easy choice. Well, yeah, but I went out and did it for 10 years, so it\u2019s nice that it paid off well and it was a really colorful combination but I\u2019ve trained people who did seemingly boring stuff like WordPress or other things. It had allowed them to really stand out as a copywriter and specialize.<\/p>\nI call it a bat signal talent because when people know you for it, it comes up, hey, who knows about, say, branding? Nicole Piper is someone, she had 22 years in the trenches of high-level branding for like the Nickelodeon and she was doing what I did with standup going, \u201cOh. Well, that was my other life and not I\u2019m just a beginning writer.\u201d No. It\u2019s all you. All of you needs to show up for everything. When that happened, her career just exploded and she gets bat signal now, so in Copy Chief somebody will say, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve got a branding question,\u201d and people are immediately tagging Nicole. That\u2019s what we call bat signaling. It\u2019s one of the most powerful things you could do for your career when you become known and get bat signaled for something, so that\u2019s why specializing is so powerful.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, and I love that idea of showing up as the full you. Everything you\u2019ve done in the past, not forgetting about those last five jobs and just showing up as a copywriter, that it all counts. I think that\u2019s really important. I want to pivot a bit. You host three podcasts, which is quite impressive. You\u2019re managing this group. You\u2019re doing a lot. You\u2019re planning an event, which we\u2019ll talk about soon. How do you do all of it? How do you manage it? How do you make it all happen?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> It\u2019s pretty insane.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> It\u2019s crazy insane.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> I want to do it.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I don\u2019t notice until I look at, \u201cWow, that was…\u201d I literally had four promos going last week. Here\u2019s the thing. I don\u2019t want to be called a machine, \u201cThat guy\u2019s a machine.\u201d I care a lot about making it all really personal. I only want to talk about things that I\u2019m excited about so I only promote three other people\u2019s products in the world: John Carlton, Todd Brown, and Ryan Levesque because they\u2019re incredible products. They\u2019re really life-changing stuff, especially for copywriters, but how do I do it? Now the answer is, I have a team and that is one of the most tricky things I\u2019ve ever had to pull off is assembling a team and leading a team. It\u2019s a whole different skill set.<\/p>\nI used to hate when people said that, \u201cOh, you\u2019ve got to outsource and you\u2019ve got to …\u201d because I\u2019m going, \u201cWhat does that even mean?\u201d I\u2019m just trying to get any attention right now. Looking back to when I first started Copy Chief, I don\u2019t say it almost killed me, but man, it was supposed to be … Here was the irony. I told you that I had this ongoing dialogue with myself, got to get my own thing going. When I discovered that a form could be it through one of my brilliant coaches, James Schramko, it was easy to do because I was just following his model. It was also incredibly daunting.<\/p>\n
I still had a full client load and we were doing serious work. I had a writing partner, thank God. There\u2019s no way I could\u2019ve ever done it. Ben Johnson who\u2019s a brilliant copywriter, we were partnered for five years, but we were doing $50,000 launch packages, one every couple months, like really, really intense work. That took up all of my brain. Now I have this side job, and once I launched Copy Chief we quickly became a second full-time job. To be honest with you when I look back at that first six months of Copy Chief, I was like, \u201cWhy did people stay with me?\u201d Seriously, there was no onboarding, but these hundred people, most of whom I\u2019d never met, came rushing in the minute I opened the doors to Copy Chief.<\/p>\n
They were brilliant. They were amazing. Ross O\u2019Lochlynn and Jody Raynsford and Wardee Harmon and these people who are a little more known now, I\u2019d never met. A lot of them still in other jobs. I don\u2019t know what to equate it to, just some small team of ne\u2019er-do-wells but all really passionate and then you look back. It was like the beginning of Apple or something, not to ever be silly and compare the two things, but you hear those stories of like, \u201cThey didn\u2019t know what they were doing. They were just in a garage trying to build a cool computer.\u201d It was that sort of thing, but now I had to try to split my brain and this constant stress of, \u201cOh man. I\u2019m not answering this post or that post, and people are going to get frustrated.\u201d<\/p>\n
Copy Chief was supposed to be the answer to my overwhelm with client work and it only doubled it in the beginning, so that was a huge problem. It\u2019s just one of those things you have to go through if you want to find out what else is out there. I did it all myself for a while, then the beginning of last year I made the decision to just fire all my clients and say, \u201cI\u2019m going all in on Copy Chief. I\u2019m going to reinvent how I get paid.\u201d I literally had told people, \u201cStop sending those checks.\u201d A lot of it, I\u2019ve got to tell you, it was easy money. Look, if you want to have integrity in this business and build a reputation, you have to listen to that instinct that says you\u2019re not serving this client, like you\u2019re not giving this your all.<\/p>\n
So I severed everything. I need to go see if I can make Copy Chief into what I think it can be. I\u2019ll tell you, man, it was a tough year. I had to reinvent how I make money. The membership fees for Copy Chief were nowhere near my revenue from freelance work. It wasn\u2019t like I got to step off the ship, the sinking ship, onto land like Jack sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean. It was like, \u201cGo swim, man.\u201d So yeah, there were definitely some lonely nights and some minor freak outs, but I was having fun and I got to discover what is it people really want from me?<\/p>\n
Then, Kira, to answer your question, you\u2019ll notice I\u2019m not very direct in my answers. I\u2019m sorry. At that point I started to say, \u201cWell, one of the things I have to invest in here is help,\u201d and so I started to recruit from within Copy Chief and put people on whatever payroll I could make sense of. A lot of it was in trade for coaching so then there was the irony of like, \u201cI need this person\u2019s help, but in exchange for their help, I\u2019m teaching them how to be busy with freelance work so they don\u2019t have time to help me anymore.\u201d You know what I mean? It was just a lot of figuring it out as I went and then happy to say this year, it really feels like a company. I have staff that are with me and have been with me. They\u2019re amazing. Now, it actually is easier than it ever was, but getting here was daunting.<\/p>\n
Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s impressive what you\u2019ve built. I\u2019m curious, Kevin, in your relationships with the writers that you coach, what are some of the big mistakes that copywriters are making? What are some of the big opportunities that are out there, but maybe people aren\u2019t seeing?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> The mistakes I think I\u2019ve touched on a little. Tactically, you\u2019re going to make mistakes and you\u2019re going to learn from them. One inexcusable mistake is not raising your fees. Let me say this. The foundation to my answer to any of this is, you\u2019ve got to be good. You\u2019ve got to follow what John Carlton calls the Pro Code, which is showing up on time, having done what you said you would do. Pretty simple. Don\u2019t be the kind of person who breaks that code. Don\u2019t miss deadlines. I hate this BS about, \u201cOh, deadlines are a suggestion.\u201d No, be the kind of person who is known for hitting that. You have no idea how frustrating it is for clients to find out that you were very on time in collecting their money but gave no credence to their deadline.<\/p>\nIf you\u2019re missing deadlines, it\u2019s your fault because you didn\u2019t set the tone and the criteria for how this is going to go down with your client. They\u2019re looking for you to be a leader and say, \u201cThis is how this is going to work. This is what I need from you.\u201d Your client needs to have as many deadlines as you do in getting you the stuff you need to do good work. So when you establish with them that they have deadlines and that if they miss those deadlines, it does not mean that the project gets pushed back a week because they forgot to tell you they were spending a weekend in the Maldives, and couldn\u2019t get you those files or couldn\u2019t give you an interview. Screw that. That means they lost their deposit.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll tell you the most uncomfortable conversation I\u2019ve ever had in my life professionally was telling a client, a good client, a repeat client, that his $20,000 deposit was now mine unrefundable because despite my repeated request for the information I needed, he didn\u2019t give it to me. Believe me, that was very counterintuitive to a former hippie comic, but the truth is, we\u2019re freelancers and we live and die by our calendar and it\u2019s imperative that your client understands that. You\u2019ve got to show up big and not be timid. They\u2019re looking for you to run the game here. That\u2019s why they\u2019ll hire you. That\u2019s was Carlton calls being the adult in the room.<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll tell you the outcome of that. That client said to me, to his credit, he said, \u201cI don\u2019t like it, but I respect it and let\u2019s look at your calendar. When can I get back on?\u201d Then he paid me another $20,000 to get back on my calendar. That was incredibly eye-opening, and he remained a great client. We did like two or three other projects together after that. That\u2019s the level of respect that you should have for what you do and what you should demand from the people who hire you. Otherwise, what\u2019s it all about? What\u2019s the point? Why would you be stressing over $1000 and feeling pressure from some fly-by-night wing nut who wants to tell you, \u201cThis better convert man. Your reputation is on the line. I\u2019ll tell everybody if this sucks.\u201d<\/p>\n
I\u2019ll tell everybody right now that you suck. How about that? It just gets me angry. I hate the way I see some people talking to freelancers in this business. You\u2019ve got to buy in to your value first and then set a standard. It\u2019s not about being cocky or arrogant. It\u2019s about knowing that you\u2019re going to pour your heart and soul into the gig, and if you\u2019re willing to die for it, then they should be willing to meet you halfway there. What was the question?<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Oh wow. I need to share this with every single copywriter. We need to wrap up and I want to ask you about your event. You have an upcoming event. We\u2019ve seen the video, it\u2019s hilarious. Rob and I are both going to be there and we\u2019re really excited to be there, and we\u2019ll figure out some type of event for the copywriter club to accompany that.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Oh great.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Can you just share more about what we can expect, why we should be there?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to get even more excited. I discovered something about myself, and this will be valuable to copywriter, but some people have different motivations. Like I said, I get that some writers are very shy. I discovered that I am performance driven and for me, having a live gig on the books is the greatest gift in the world because I fantasize about it for like every day leading up to it. I just can\u2019t wait to get onstage and feel the audience and affect the audience. It\u2019s where I live. To be able to host my own live event is an amazing gift. It\u2019s me at my best for three days, two days officially, and then an extra day for my members.<\/p>\nI\u2019ve been very blessed. I\u2019ve cashed in all the relationship capital I\u2019ve built up over my career. I\u2019ve got John Carlton speaking. That was my big get, obviously. How many times have I mentioned his name? He\u2019s everything to me. Whatever you think about him, he\u2019s twice as brilliant and twice as bighearted as you could ever imagine. He\u2019s also an amazing musician. The fact that John and I, as part of this event, are going to perform together, our own passion crafts on the same night, I\u2019m going to do stand up and then John\u2019s going to play with the band, that is such a fantasy to me that it\u2019s just going to be amazing, but the event itself, it\u2019s kind of closed-door content.<\/p>\n
The things that the speakers are sharing are things they\u2019ve all promised me they\u2019ve never shared anywhere else. Some of these speakers are people who do not share very openly. For instance, Parris Lampropolous, who is one of the greatest living copywriters on the planet is very secretive. He\u2019ll speak at a Clayton Makepeace event occasionally but they\u2019re usually like $5000+ events. Parris and I are very close. He\u2019s willing to do this for me, but this is a man who doesn\u2019t even, he won\u2019t even give me a picture.<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah. He won\u2019t even… Look on my podcast. I have a hundred and whatever, 20 episodes. One guest doesn\u2019t have a photo and he\u2019s the guy with an amazing two-parter and it\u2019s Parris. I\u2019ve called in all my capital man, and so Parris, John Carlton, Joe Schrieber from Agora, Marcella Allison, Henry Bingaman. I look at it … There\u2019s like three … Todd Brown, like crazy. As far as the content goes, there\u2019s three categories. There\u2019s the legends, which is John and Parris teaching us something they\u2019ve never talk before. There is what I\u2019m calling the Chiefs, which is real working copy chiefs at the highest levels, which is Henry Bingaman who\u2019s the new copy chief and creative director at Natural Health Sherpa.<\/p>\nThen there\u2019s Joe Scrieber, who is the copy chief at Agora Financial, which is on track to make $170 million in sales this year, and here\u2019s what\u2019s amazing about those two speakers. Guess why they\u2019re extra willing to come present at this thing? Because they need copywriters. They want to meet copywriters, so how cool is that? Not only are they-<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I\u2019m going.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah. I want everybody going, \u201cWho\u2019s going to kill this room the hardest?\u201d You better show up ready to kill this room because everybody\u2019s bringing their best stuff, and so they\u2019re trying to impress you because they want to hire you. How cool is that? The networking is going to be totally through… Oh, and the third category is the A-listers. Marcella is the only copywriter I know who\u2019s ever been chiefed by Clayton Makepeace, Parris Lampropolous, David Deutch, Mike Ward and Mark Ford. Crazy, forget about it. She\u2019s amazing. She\u2019s brilliant. She\u2019s so cool. Then Todd Brown representing the marketers.<\/p>\nIf you\u2019re a marketer, you\u2019re going, \u201cAll right. Great, but I don\u2019t want to be a copywriter. I\u2019m not even really looking to hire a copywriter.\u201d Well, Todd\u2019s the guy who takes the highest level copy stuff and puts it into marketing funnels and he\u2019s amazing at teaching it, so I\u2019ve get everybody covered. It\u2019s going to be a lot of fun because I\u2019m going to be making relationships. I\u2019m getting on the phone with every single person who buys a ticket to this event because I don\u2019t want the networking to be about dating. I don\u2019t want dates to happen. I want honeymoons happening all around us. People that I\u2019ve already connected and are already working on-<\/p>\n
Kira:<\/strong> Babies, you want babies.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah, I want babies, Copy Chief babies nine months from now. The other element is I want to show people that, like we talked about before Kira, what is that other thing you bring to it? All of you all the time and I want to put that on display and that\u2019s why I\u2019m doing standup so you can see that the way I write copy is because I think like a standup comic. The way John Carlton writes copy is because he plays lead guitar and sings with a band. That\u2019s the intangible. That\u2019s the thing that you\u2019ll bring to a copy project that no other writer could and I want everybody to leave there inspired to go, \u201cWow, I\u2019ve been ignoring my passion. I need to light that fire again because that\u2019s the thing that\u2019s going to make me a really great copywriter.\u201d<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> We\u2019re excited to be there. Kira and I are both going. We\u2019re looking forward to connecting down there with everybody, but stuff to learn as well, it\u2019s just going to be a great experience.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Yeah. Selfishly, I\u2019m excited to hang out with the club members and with you Kevin, but selfishly I\u2019m going because I want those connections with people I would not meet otherwise.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s what I\u2019m all about. That\u2019s the thing. I\u2019ll be talking to you guys about, \u201cAll right, in your own careers, what\u2019s up? What do you want? What are you passionate about? What\u2019s your specialty? What have you written?\u201d I want to deliver, especially the people who I know are there looking for copywriters, in their gift bag I\u2019m going to put an envelope with a welcome letter and a list of names of people they need to make sure they talk to during the event. I am not leaving the networking to chance at this thing.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> So tell us dates and at least initial price.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> October 9 and 10th<\/sup>. That is Columbus Day right here in St. Pete. Get there on the 8th<\/sup>, which is a Sunday night. For my members, there is a special day, Wednesday, where we\u2019ll do some really cool stuff, a lot of freelancer focus stuff. When tickets go on sale to the public, they\u2019ll be $1299. Prices go up every two weeks so you\u2019ve got to have that urgency. There\u2019s only a hundred seats by the way, and 30+ are sold already just in the first couple weeks here in Copy Chief. I want this thing sold out as quick as possible so that I can really focus on making it even more spectacular than I\u2019m imagining now. I don\u2019t want to be worrying about filling seats as this thing is approaching. I think the price is a screaming bargain for what you\u2019re getting. Again, my goal is to have you look back on this as the event that changed everything for you.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> I\u2019ll add, we don\u2019t have an affiliate relationship here Kevin. We\u2019re sharing it with our group because we think this is going to be an awesome opportunity, and so we hope that people take the opportunity to hook up with Kira and I and everybody else that\u2019s going to be down there. It\u2019s going to be a lot of fun and maybe more importantly a lot of learning and connecting.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> I appreciate that. I\u2019ll do whatever I can to make it extra cool for your club to be there and to hang with you guys, maybe even sneak them in side doors to different stuff.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> That\u2019d be awesome.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Awesome.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> Okay Kevin, aside from the event, if people are looking to connect with you online, obviously you\u2019re everywhere. Podcasts, Copy Chief, but what\u2019s the best place to find you?<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Good luck not hearing my voice.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> All Kevin all the time.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Copychief.com is where you can find everything, the podcasts. There\u2019s only one podcast that\u2019s not there. That\u2019s the one I do with John. That\u2019s called Psych Insights for Modern Marketers. That\u2019s the worst URL ever PI4MM.com. It\u2019s a great podcast. It only happens occasionally, but it\u2019s always magic. Yeah, Copychief.com, if you go there and only see the wait list page, when you come back, you\u2019ll be able to see the blog and everything else. Lots of great content there. Yeah, that\u2019s about it. Also, an app, a free app if you search in wherever you get apps for Copy Chief, you can get all the content on your mobile phone. Really cool app for members and nonmembers so check that out as well.<\/p>\nRob:<\/strong> If people want to join Copy Chief, we\u2019ve set up sort of a referral. We might be able to sneak people in outside of the wait list or whatever, but they need to reach out to us individually to find out more about that. Cool. Thanks Kevin. This has been awesome.<\/p>\nKira:<\/strong> Thank you, Kevin. Yeah. Seriously. I\u2019m pumped up. This has been incredible. Lots of great advice. Thank you. I\u2019m excited to see you in October.<\/p>\nKevin:<\/strong> Likewise. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. Let\u2019s do it again.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Copy Chief Kevin Rogers is in the club for a special inbetween-isode. This is a rare, second episode this week and it\u2019s a good one. Kevin shares his journey from […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[58,3],"class_list":["post-774","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-kevin-rogers","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\n
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