{"id":802,"date":"2017-08-08T14:20:37","date_gmt":"2017-08-08T07:20:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=802"},"modified":"2018-01-04T11:24:37","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T04:24:37","slug":"copywriter-abbey-woodcock","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-abbey-woodcock\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #44: Business Systems for Copywriters with Abbey Woodcock"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter Abbey Woodcock stops by <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> studio to share how she went from being a single mom and journalist struggling to make ends meet to a highly paid copywriter specializing in complex launch sequences. And she shares a few of the hard-won lessons along the way. Things like:<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0when you should absolutely NOT buy that course or coaching program<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the #1 thing she learned working for Ramit Sethi<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how she writes sales pages that make customers think she is reading their minds<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the \u201ctable stakes\u201d principle for delivering solid copy<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what she does to make sure she\u2019s not the smartest person in the room (even if she is)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the surprising thought Abbey has on<em> every single project<\/em> she works on<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why and how she set up systems for her business<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how you can get to the point where you can work on large launch projects, and<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the worst things she sees going on in the copywriting world today<\/p>\n<p>As we were wrapping up the interview, Abbey saved the best for last, sharing the story of how Ramit Sethi was willing to test her ideas\u2014even though his gut said she was wrong and it would cost him thousands of dollars. You\u2019ll want to hear this, and the rest of the interview. To do it, click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_9402\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-802-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC044.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC044.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC044.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC044.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=802-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC044.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC044.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/direct-response-expert-brian-kurtz\/\">Brian Kurtz<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ramit\">Ramit Sethi<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.narnia.com\/us\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Narnia<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.onlifeandwriting.com\/uncategorized\/so-they-say-cant-afford-it\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The controversial article<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/jeffwalker.com\/programs\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">PLF<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.infusionsoft.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">InfusionSoft<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.businessofcopy.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Thebusinessofcopy.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.onlifeandwriting.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Onlifeandwriting.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could you hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for Episode 44, as we chat with copywriter Abbey Woodcock about her journey from struggling single mom to her place on the A-List. Creating systems for your copywriting business, finding the right voice for your clients, and what she thinks of the gurus who say you should sacrifice everything to invest in your business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Hi, Abbey. Hey, Rob. How\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Super excited to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Welcome. Well, before we start recording, I think Rob mentioned that he\u2019s been stalking you and aware of you for the past year. I really started paying attention to you when I met you in March at Bryan Kurtz\u2019s Titans Master Class. You gave a presentation to the group about helping creatives build systems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Which was spoke to me as a creative who just sucks at systems. With your business partner, you\u2019ve figured out how to make it work. I know we\u2019re going to dive into that and a lot of other things, our topics today. To start, Abbey, let\u2019s start with your story. I know you mentioned that it\u2019s not a rags to riches story. But let\u2019s dive into how you got into copywriting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. Sure. I always say that my copywriting journey started in seventh grade because I wrote a 30-page letter to a boy in seventh grade to ask him to the school dance. That was my first long-form fields letter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Did it convert?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> No. No, zero convert on that one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> 30 pages?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah, 30 pages.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> 30 pages were necessary, okay. Got it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That gives a little bit of context for what we\u2019re going to ask about Ramit and what you\u2019ve done for him, because 30 pages is short for some of the stuff he does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. Absolutely, I was prepping many years ago for that job. Then I graduated high school, which was exciting. My goal was to actually go into journalism. I did that, but the thing about being a reporter is it\u2019s very long hours and very little pay. Right out of college I got a job as a production editor and a reporter for a newspaper. That is the story that you guys had read. At that time in my life, I had no money. I had two really young children. My two children are 15 months apart. They were both under two years old.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> It was a really tough time financially for me. I was working crazy hours and trying to figure out all this, being a new mom. It was really difficult for a while. We\u2019re talking having rent payments not happen and services shut off, cell phone and cable and all that. After that I went into corporate marketing. Not because I wanted to be a marketing director necessarily, but it was better pay and better hours. I had to prioritize with my family. That\u2019s how I discovered this whole world of copywriting, was through working in marketing and I discovered that copywriting was what I really loved to do. About two years after that is when I discovered this whole online world that we seem to find ourselves in, Narnia as I call it and ended up on Ramit Sethi\u2019s team being a copywriter. That\u2019s my story, and after a couple years with Ramit I went freelance and that\u2019s where I am now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s awesome. I definitely want to hear more about your experiences with Ramit because I think so many of us are familiar with the long emails and the incredibly long sales pages that he uses to sell his product. Before we do that, I want to jump to this blog post or article that you wrote recently about investing in your business. You went off, you got a little energized about people who suggest that if you\u2019re not investing in your business and spending thousands of dollars on courses or coaching or training, that you aren\u2019t serious about what you\u2019re doing. Can we talk a little bit about that and the message you were trying to send with that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Flag in the mountainside or whatever you call it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> It kind of turned into that. I wrote it on a whim after I saw a Facebook comment on one of the &#8230; Having these mini Facebook, free Facebook groups for the launches has turned into this trend and I saw one of these big launches has turned into this trend and I saw one of these big launches that was happening and I was looking at the comments in the Facebook group. I always am curious at how the support team is answering questions in the Facebook group. Really, it\u2019s like watching customer service chat live, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> I saw one of these comments that somebody had said along the lines of, \u201cI really can\u2019t afford this course, it\u2019s $2,000.\u201d The support staff was like, \u201cWell, you can\u2019t afford not to invest.\u201d We all know the rigamarole of, \u201cUse your credit card.\u201d And \u201cWe have payment plans.\u201d I realized after working with a variety of different types of people. I\u2019m a launch junkie, so I watch all these launches really closely. I don\u2019t think a lot of people understand what it\u2019s really like to broke. There\u2019s a time to invest $2,000 in your business. I\u2019m not saying anything about that you shouldn\u2019t take $2,000 courses or that $2,000 courses re too expensive. In the last year in my business, I\u2019ve spent over $25,000 on courses and Master Minds and events, but I\u2019m at the place where I can do that now. 10 years ago, the story I was telling you about when I was a newspaper reporter just figuring out how to start a business or what I wanted to do.<\/p>\n<p>Investing $2,000 would have crippled me. Number one, I didn\u2019t have $2,000, but if I maxed out my credit card that was the only thing I had if the car broke down or if the kids got sick. It just really upset me that people put this pressure on other people that, \u201cYou need to invest in yourself.\u201d While I agree with that, it comes in stages. You have to take baby steps if that\u2019s where you are in your life, that you\u2019re not in a place where you have $2,000 that you can invest in your business, that\u2019s okay. People need to understand. We as copywriters and marketers need to understand that the hard sell is not always appropriate. Sometimes it\u2019s bad for your customer. It\u2019s bad for your business. It puts everybody in a really uncomfortable position. I wrote this post and it turned into this. I don\u2019t want to say it went viral, because it wasn\u2019t that crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It kind of did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> It\u2019s definitely the most popular, most commented post that I\u2019d ever had because I think so many people related to it. I think the people at the top with these successful businesses doing these multimillion dollar launches, some of them have really lost touch to what it\u2019s like to not have $100 in your bank account for example.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What we saw in our group in the comments. There were a few people who were like, \u201cRight on. This is perfect.\u201d Then it seemed like there were a few people out there saying, \u201cIt\u2019s not okay to charge anything, people should be giving this away for free.\u201d That\u2019s not what she was saying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Did they say that? I missed that comment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> There were one or two people who are thinking these people who sell things for $2,000 or more are ripping us all off and really not thinking, \u201cWell, no, that\u2019s not exactly right. That\u2019s not the message.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> No. That was unique to your group actually. I had a lot of comments and emails about that about, \u201cYeah. You\u2019re right. These people that are selling $2,000 courses are unethical. You should always have a $97 product.\u201d I\u2019m like, no. We\u2019re in Bryan Kurtz\u2019s group together. I invested $15,000 into that group and I\u2019ve gotten 10X ROI on that.\u201d Having a $10,000 product or a $2,000 product is not a bad thing. It\u2019s just understanding who you\u2019re marketing that $2,000 product to, because the person that should be purchasing a $2,000 product is not the person whose cable is going to get shut off next month if they don\u2019t pay the bill or whose rent is two months behind. There\u2019s a big market for $2,000 courses and I\u2019ve invested in many of them that have been excellent. I\u2019ve worked on them and I\u2019ve written copy for them. I\u2019m not saying that selling a $2,000 course is wrong or that you should always have a low end product. I\u2019m just saying understand if you\u2019re selling a $2,000 course, that not everybody is right for it, and that\u2019s all right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. It\u2019s all about ethics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Abbey, you\u2019ve been vocal in the copywriting space and the online marketing space even by posting that particular post. Then reading through your other posts and just paying attention to what you\u2019re saying and sharing. Is that a recent thing, where you\u2019re getting frustrated with certain things that are happening and you feel like you need to call it out, not set it straight, but just start the discussion or have you always been that way or is this a new thing for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Well. I\u2019ve always been I think vocal about things that I observe. Then I think you\u2019re right that it has been fairly recent, because I\u2019m starting to realize in copywriting and online marketing specifically, there\u2019s this whole world behind the scenes that happens that I get to see because I\u2019m working on these launches on these people that are really familiar names and really big. There\u2019s a perception of what happens on these launches. There\u2019s a perception of how online business runs, which is all created on purpose. There\u2019s all these things that happen behind the scenes that I feel like nobody talks about, because I feel like nobody understands. Recently I\u2019ve been really trying to point some of that out. One of these things like having these huge launches.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve had clients come to me or potential clients come to me or potential clients come to me wanting to have a PLF style launch and they just don\u2019t have the budget for it. People just don\u2019t understand that some of these marketers are spending literally $100,000 on these launches. They\u2019re spending $50,000 just on copy. I think there\u2019s a perception that you don\u2019t have to grow into that, but you can start an online business. The first thing to do is have this complicated launch sequence and start out with a $2,000 course. It\u2019s just people are wondering why they are failing and why they are struggling to get their business off the ground because they\u2019re not following the path that people who are successful have followed. They\u2019re following the shortcuts. I\u2019ve been making it my goal to point out, \u201cHere\u2019s what\u2019s actually going on behind the scenes, that you might not be aware of.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think you\u2019re pointing out, another problem is that if you\u2019re not selling a $2,000 course, you\u2019re selling say a $97 course or a $49 product. You want to copy those kinds of launch things. The money\u2019s not there. It does cost 50 grand or 100 grand to do that kind of video production and to do the multi video staged launches and sending out 50 different emails depending on how people respond to one video or the other. If you\u2019re selling a $97 course you\u2019d have to sell three or 4,000 of those to even get close to breaking even.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. Exactly right. You\u2019ll see it in all kinds of groups, not just copywriting groups, but online business groups, where people are like, \u201cShould I get Infusion Soft?\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cHow big is your list?\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cI have 200 people.\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cNo. You should not get Infusion Soft.\u201d They\u2019re like Infusion Soft is a great product, but it\u2019s expensive and the capabilities of it are just not going to be utilized on a 200 person list. These are people that have 100,000 people or more on their lists. People want all the software.<\/p>\n<p>They want, \u201cCan I get membership software that can segment and that can have a tiered product and do this and do that?\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cHow about you start off with the basic, and then if you need to upgrade from there because things get so crazy and big. Your product just flies of the shelves and gets so popular that you need to upgrade. Why don\u2019t you do that?\u201d People want to jump right to,\u201dWell, this guru is doing this and that guru is doing this. They have this software and they have this type of site.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, but it took them 10 years to build that business.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I want to shift gears a bit and go back to your experience working with Ramit and that team. I\u2019m curious to hear just what you learned and took away from that experience and how it shaped you as a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> It was definitely the most influential time for me as becoming a copywriter. I was part of that team for two and a half, three years. Ramit is just a really incredible mentor and teacher. There\u2019s this perception that people that are successful would just be successful and wouldn\u2019t teach. Some of them just love to teach and Ramit is one of those people. He just really loves it and that spills over into his business. He really spent a lot of time investing in developing me as a copywriter, as a business person. I really got to see behind the curtain on how a successful business runs. Really the best thing that I learned from him is to expect excellence. That\u2019s expecting excellence from yourself and the people that you\u2019re working with. He constantly would ask me to do things or give me tasks that I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t think I\u2019m ready for this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s like, \u201cNo. You can do it.\u201d It was really great. We would spend hours on Skype and on the phone going through copy and I would watch him write copy. It was just a really, really great experience. He surrounds himself with people that expect excellence. It was just working with the highest level team, which is awesome. It\u2019s also scary as hell, all the time. Because I always felt like I was the dumb person in the room. It was funny because if you talked to the team everybody felt like everyone that surrounded them, was just so much smarter. It was really great. I still work with Ramit\u2019s team on projected from time to time. We\u2019ve continued our relationship. He was really supportive of me going off and starting my business. He continues to be just a really great mentor to have.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s great. I want to ask about copy length because I think Ramit is famous for these massively long sales pages. They\u2019re ridiculous in length. I\u2019ve tried to screenshot some of them. They\u2019re so big that screenshot software won\u2019t capture them, it crashes them. We\u2019re talking 70 pages of copy. I think both Kira and I are about long sales pages. We love that stuff. We understand that the message needs to be long enough to sell the product, but 70 pages? Tell us the thinking behind some of that and how long it takes to create that kind of a page.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> As far as how long it takes to create the page. A lot of gurus you hear them say things, like how long that they\u2019ve been working on this product. Ramit, no kidding works on products for sometimes two years before he ever releases them. I know that his team is working on stuff that is not going to be released for two or five years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> We start the product development process. The copywriters are involved in that from the very beginning. As far as creating the sales page it\u2019s literally sometimes a year long process. Then obviously when we get closer to launch it becomes really a crunch time. It\u2019s working really long hours for a couple of weeks to get them created. There\u2019s three or four people at any one time working on it. As far as the thinking, it took me a while to drink the Kool-Aid of the long-form sales pages. I\u2019m like,\u201dDo people really read it.\u201d It\u2019s interesting because there\u2019s a survey when you join one of the courses that says, \u201cWhy did you join and what are you hoping to get out of it?\u201d The product research they do, as soon as you join.<\/p>\n<p>For the \u201cWhy will you join the course?\u201d The phrases that people would use, they would lift right from the sales page. They would say, \u201cI\u2019m tired of working my nine to five job and I\u2019m ready to start an online business.\u201d Word for word that\u2019s a phrase that was on page 35 of the sales letter or whatever. It would happen and it would all be different phrases. That was so fascinating to me because I\u2019m like, \u201cPeople really do read this.\u201d Not the majority I don\u2019t think read it all, because it would literally take you a couple hours to read the entire page. They scroll through it and it really speaks to what they\u2019re going through. The research that gets put into those sales pages. It\u2019s insane, the amount of data Ramit collects on his customers before he even creates the product.<\/p>\n<p>Then we have access to thousands and thousands of customer stories and quotes from Reddit and just all kinds of different things like that. Using the words that the customer uses from that research phase. It will speak directly to somebody and they\u2019ll say things like, \u201cOh my gosh it\u2019s like you\u2019re reading my mind. I was scrolling through and then all of a sudden I saw this one sub-head, that\u2019s really exactly what I\u2019m looking for.\u201d It\u2019s different for every person depending on their situation. It was quite the process creating those. Then if you see the pages, they\u2019re just beautifully designed too. It\u2019s another three, four weeks of design after the copy\u2019s written.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You mentioned expecting excellence and that\u2019s what you took away from your time with that team. Is it just a mindset shift for you that clicked and it just sticks with you now? Or do you have to almost check in with yourself to make sure that you are holding yourself to that high bar. Also, just is that a mindset shift that everyone can tap into? Even if we don\u2019t work with a team like Ramit\u2019s team? Can freelancers just figure out how to tap into that excellence and that mindset on their own?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> I\u2019ve always been somebody that\u2019s held myself to just really ridiculously high standards. I always have to be the best at what I\u2019m doing. A colleague of mine, a copywriter also, he had told me one time. He\u2019s like, \u201cAbbey, you need to chill out. You can\u2019t always be the best.\u201d That\u2019s just always been my personality. The interesting thing about Ramit\u2019s team is he had this phrase that he used a lot called table stakes. Table stakes meant things like, the grammar had to be right. The layout if we were making a webinar slide deck, everything needed to be lined up. The margins needed to be correct. The pictures needed to be right. That was things that just, he shouldn\u2019t have to worry about that stuff when we sent him the copy. He shouldn\u2019t be proofing it for grammar mistakes and that kind of thing, that was table stakes.<\/p>\n<p>What he was looking for was, \u201cIs this the best copy? Is it going to convert? Is it using the best psychological principles?\u201d He wanted to focus on that stuff. That\u2019s been something that I\u2019ve taken away from that is table stakes is, a client should never look at my copy and see grammar mistakes or the layout shouldn\u2019t be confusing. The links should all work. There shouldn\u2019t be broken links or the YouTube video permission should be set correctly. All those just little details. I don\u2019t want my clients to worry about that. That was something that really just came straight from Ramit of having the table stakes of all that little stuff, should be not even a thought on the client\u2019s radar.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Abbey, I love when you were talking about feeling like you might not be the smartest person in the room. I think this is something you\u2019ve written about a little bit on your blog. You\u2019ve been very intentional about surrounding yourself with people who could teach you. Will you talk a little bit about your thought process around that. Why you do it and the things that you\u2019re doing now to make sure that you have influencers around you to help you grow?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Everybody knows that phrase, \u201cIf you\u2019re the smartest person in the room, you\u2019re in the wrong room.\u201d I think there\u2019s a second part that nobody really talks about, which is that other room where you go to where you\u2019re not the smartest is a really scary place to be. The mental, just toll that it takes on you, being surrounded by people that you feel are smarter than you. Its awesome. You get to really think the level of thinking and the strategy. There\u2019s no way that it can\u2019t rub off on you. People that expect excellence in their work and people that want to do great things and have these big dreams &#8230; The thought of when I was really broke starting a seven figure business, was that was not even in my per view of something that was possible.<\/p>\n<p>Now I surround myself with people that have seven, eight, nine figure businesses. It\u2019s like, \u201cWow, they\u2019re no different than me. They just have skillsets and they\u2019ve learned things along the way that I haven\u2019t learned yet. It opens up this possibility of what would a seven figure business look like? How can I get there? Or even a six figure business, ten years ago me being told I have a multi six figure business would be insane.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m guessing there\u2019s people in our club that would kill for a five figure business.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Absolutely. It\u2019s surrounding yourself with people that have them. People talk a lot to me about live events and which live events I go to. If you\u2019re going to $200 live events, you\u2019re going to be surrounded by people that are spending $200 on a live event. If you go to a $2,000 event, the level of people is going to be so different. It doesn\u2019t even have to be paying for an event, but just talking with people that are way past where you are. It opens up those possibilities of, \u201cOkay, they did it, how can I do that. What steps did they take, that I can follow?\u201d Working with Ramit was one of those things for me where it was like the path was laid out. I knew his whole journey from starting the business in his college dorm room to having a multi seven figure, eight figure business.<\/p>\n<p>I got to see that pathway and it really opened up this world that I had never seen. Like I said, the other part of that is you have to know that it\u2019s going to make you feel like an idiot a lot of the time like, \u201cWhy am I the only person here that doesn\u2019t have a seven figure business?\u201d It\u2019s recognizing that your mind is playing all kinds of tricks on you. I\u2019ve never had a project, not one project with any client that at some point in the project I hadn\u2019t thought, \u201cI think I should probably give them a refund because I\u2019m terrible at this.\u201d Not one single project. It could be a small project like I\u2019m writing a landing page for somebody. At one point I\u2019m like, \u201cI shouldn\u2019t even do this. I\u2019m a terrible copywriter.\u201d I\u2019ve been doing this for six, seven years now. It\u2019s recognizing those mental crazies that happen to all of us and understanding that\u2019s just part of the process.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s such a relief to hear because I\u2019m even working on a project right now. I\u2019m just like, \u201cI shouldn\u2019t have done this. I shouldn\u2019t have taken this on. I wish I could just give them back their money.\u201d When I walked into the Titans Master Class in March, I thought the same thing. I looked around the room. It was my first time meeting everyone. I think I texted Rob. I was like, \u201cI am in the wrong room. These people are all doing so much better than I am.\u201d It was also a really good feeling. Then once you get to know the people, just knowing that, no you\u2019re in the right room. You\u2019re exactly where you should be. It\u2019s good to hear that we all feel that way. Abbey, I want to hear about your writing process. You\u2019re working on these big launches. Could you just give us an overview of what it looks like behind the scenes for you? Do you have a team? What does your research process look like? How are you handling all of this. Anything you\u2019re willing to share.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. This is just a huge question that can go in a bunch of different directions.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> I think the key for me because you\u2019re right, most of what I work on now are really big launches. When I say big launches, I mean 186 copy deliverables.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> That\u2019s 100 emails, 17 videos, just a lot of things. You can\u2019t not have a process doing those things. I tried to wing it for a little while with epic failure, because these are sometimes three month projects. If I have a project that\u2019s due on September 1<sup>st<\/sup>, today\u2019s June 14<sup>th<\/sup>. What am I supposed to be doing today. Casey who\u2019s my business partner and my fiance. He\u2019s a total systems guy. He\u2019s just like, \u201cWe need to make structure.\u201d I\u2019m just not that person. Together with a lot of trial and error, we\u2019ve found ways to structure and plan out, \u201cOkay, this week what has to be done? What are the benchmarks that have to be done by the end of this week? How do we know that we\u2019re behind in July for a September due date of a project?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He\u2019s just really been great at that. Working together has been really interesting because most systems are created by people like Casey who are systems people. Our first go round at one of these systems, he\u2019s like, \u201cI made a whole calendar for this launch. It\u2019s all set. You\u2019ll know exactly what to do.\u201d I was like, \u201cPerfect.\u201d He sent me the calendar for the day and I\u2019ll never forget it because it was like 9:00 in the morning. I looked at it. He was like, \u201cOkay, from 9:00 AM to 9:30 is breakfast. From 9:30 to 10:30 you can be working on the headline. From 10:30 to 11:30-\u201c<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh my gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> \u201cYou\u2019ll work on the sub-head.\u201d I literally got up and I was like, \u201cI\u2019m going to go to Target. I\u2019ll be back in a little while.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cI cannot work with that kind of structure. It just doesn\u2019t work for me.\u201d We went back and forth and what we created &#8230; Everything is broken down by week. I know what has to happen by Friday of this week. If I decide to take the day off on Tuesday because something came up or there\u2019s somewhere I want to go or the kids got sick. I can take of Tuesday knowing, \u201cOkay, Wednesday I\u2019m going to have to hit it. I\u2019m going to have to get these things done by Friday.\u201d We built this crazy Frankenstein spreadsheet template that we use now for these big launches that really breaks down the whole process.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s the side benefit of that is that the clients understand what I\u2019m working on, because the problem happens a lot when you\u2019re working on these big projects. Is as copywriters, we go away for two to three weeks to work on things. The clients are like, \u201cAre you doing work over there? What\u2019s going on? What\u2019s the status of everything?\u201d If you\u2019re writing a sales page, for example or a video script, that\u2019s going to take you some time without any really good updates to give to the client. \u201cOh, I wrote a few sentences today, but the direction is looking really great.\u201d The spreadsheet really gives them an idea of where things are in the process and that you\u2019re still on track, that you didn\u2019t just disappear for three weeks and you\u2019re going to come back with nothing. Long answer, but that\u2019s how we\u2019ve broken down some of these launches.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> The first time that I saw that spreadsheet, I opened it up. It was one of those things where I was totally boggled. Oh my gosh. The spreadsheet itself is a project, just filling it out. I love the idea of sharing that with the client. What else do you do to communicate with the client. What else do you do to communicate with the client as the project goes on? Because I imagine it\u2019s not just, \u201cOkay, this is what I\u2019m working on and I\u2019ll talk to you in September.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Exactly. Casey and I\u2019s background, the other part of my life is I\u2019m a chainsaw instructor for natural disaster non-profit organization, which is the most random two things to put together. That\u2019s where Casey and I met. He has worked a lot in the disaster space, tornadoes, hurricanes, that kind of thing. There\u2019s this system that FEMA created. It actually came out of the Wildland Fire space called ICS, which is Incident Command System. Basically it\u2019s a system that you learn when you get in this space so that all the organizations are speaking the same language. They can communicate with each other. What the Red Cross is doing versus what FEMA is doing versus what whoever. From that system, Casey adopted it because launches can be just as terrible as hurricanes sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>We created this meeting schedule that follows the ICS system. It\u2019s a way to check in with the client. Briefly on Monday you have an all team meeting that just says, \u201cHey, here\u2019s what the goals are for the week. On Tuesday the creative team meets. We\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, here\u2019s the goals for the week. Is this reasonable? Do we need extra resources? How are we going to get this done?\u201d Then on Thursday you have a check-in with everybody again that says, \u201cOkay, it\u2019s Thursday. Are we on track to get done what we need to get done by Friday? If not, what do we need to adjust.\u201d These are really short meetings, like 15 minutes each. It keeps the client understanding where things are.<\/p>\n<p>It also allows you to communicate like, \u201cHey, I can\u2019t write this script until I have this information.\u201d You\u2019re continually communicating back and forth with the client. What\u2019s happening? What do you need to make the next step happen? Where are some spots where, this week we\u2019re supposed to write all these ads. I\u2019d really like to bring on another copywriter because this is not going to happen. It\u2019s not reasonable for me to write 15 emails in the next two days or whatever. It really lets the client see on a micro-level what\u2019s reasonable and where you\u2019re overloaded or if things are moving faster. Like, \u201cHey, you know, we don\u2019t have a lot of work this week, maybe we can get ahead on something.\u201d That\u2019s the brief overview of our system.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I want to ask two follow-up questions to that. The first is how do you estimate what a typical project is going to cost? Is it, are you looking at all of the elements and you have a fixed price or do you just have a week rate or a month rate? They\u2019re renting your brain for everything. The second question is, how much of your day do you actually spend writing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> The first question, honestly it depends. Sometimes I\u2019m on a retainer with a client, so they\u2019ll do the rent me for a month deal if they have ongoing needs like they\u2019re writing daily emails for example. They want help with their daily emails. It\u2019s about the same every month. For launches, we look at the whole strategy. What is this launch? It\u2019s going to be PLF style. That means at least four long video scripts, some emails, we break down the elements. I do have a price list that gives me a starting point. It\u2019s really flexible because what for example Ramit\u2019s going to do in a launch is going to be very different than somebody that is expecting maybe $100,000 launch or a $50,000 launch. The amount of copy needed and the elements are going to be less. We add it up and we also cross check it based on time.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOkay, here\u2019s all the elements. Here\u2019s what we\u2019re thinking with pricing. Okay. It\u2019s going to take three months.\u201d If I\u2019m going to be working with this client for three months exclusively, is this going to help me hit my goals for three months. This is the revenue I need for three months. Usually they come out about the same because I\u2019ve created my price lists to if for example I have a sales letter that I have to write this month. How many sales letters do I have to write in a month to hit my revenue goals for the month? That\u2019s how I\u2019ve created my price list., they come out the same, but we do cross check it with if it\u2019s three months and I\u2019m working with this client only, is that going to be all right? If I do each of these elements added up, sales letter, plus video, plus email, plus &#8230; Hope that answers your question. It seems a little complicated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It is. The second question is how much time do you spend writing every day?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> I\u2019ve created my schedule in a way that I\u2019m rarely writing more than four hours in a day. On a rare occasion, things need to speed up or we have a deadline that we\u2019re coming up on. It\u2019ll go longer than that. I found four hours is really the sweet spot for me creatively. If I\u2019m writing more than that, the quality is definitely going to suffer. It\u2019s really not the kind of life I wanted to build. I don\u2019t want to be somebody that\u2019s working 12 hours a day, six days, seven days a week. It works out really well and also gives me time to focus on my own projects, so about four hours is ideal for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Abbey I have a big question for you, especially for copywriters who are into launches. How do we get to where you are? Working on these big launches. Especially if we\u2019re just starting out and maybe we\u2019re working on that. A baby launch and it feels exciting. We want to move into your direction. How do we do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot of myths I think about how these things happened, which I talked about a little bit earlier about making it my goal to address some of these. If you look up online, \u201cHow do I get great clients?\u201d One of the advice they\u2019re going to give you is email the influencer. Then tell them your skillset. Somehow they\u2019re going to hire you. It takes a lot of trust for somebody to hand off a launch to a copywriter, especially if it\u2019s a seven figure launch. Number one, it took time for me to get to that place. Obviously working with Ramit was one of those things that helped me accelerate it. People get really scared of having a full time copywriting job. They think that somehow freelancers outrank copywriting employees.<\/p>\n<p>If you can get on a team where you can start to learn how these things happen behind the scenes, that was so instrumental for Me. The other thing is just doing the launches. If you\u2019re doing small launches, for say somebody has got a $50,000 launch and you\u2019re writing the copy for it. It\u2019s moving up the value chain. If you do great work for them, they\u2019re probably working with somebody that\u2019s doing $100,000 launch. Then you do that one next. You just build up the stepladder, you\u2019re not going to get a seven figure launch if you\u2019re just starting out. It doesn\u2019t matter how great an email you can write or how well you can schmooze somebody at an event. It takes a lot of trust. I was really fortunate to get on Ramit\u2019s team and to really have a relationship with him, which has built some credibility for me.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not something that\u2019s impossible for other people to do. If you can get involved in a small way on a great team, you can build your career from that. That\u2019s how I did it. There\u2019s a lot of other ways that other people have done it. It just worked really well for me. When I started freelancing I already had a wait list of clients, just because working with Ramit, people would reach out to me and say, \u201cI saw that sales letter you wrote with Ramit. Do you take on freelance clients? At the time I didn\u2019t until I left to do freelancing. Getting involved in a small way on the bigger launches is how you build that up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I want to get into the weeds a little bit. You mentioned with the proposals and packaging these huge launches. Are you listing almost line items for all the different elements. You mentioned you have prices for sales pages, emails, how do you break it up in an actual proposal so that it speaks to your client and doesn\u2019t overwhelm them. They\u2019re more likely to accept it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> The first step is that spreadsheet that I was talking about, that launch spreadsheet. We have a list in the proposal phase of every deliverable that\u2019s happening. That prevents any misunderstanding about what\u2019s expected of you. If you\u2019re charging something like $50,000 for a launch. It\u2019s very easy for a client, any client. Great clients, and bad clients to start to think, \u201cOh, I\u2019ve paid them all this money, so they can add another email sequence, or they can add an upsell over here, or we can segment the launch and do this.\u201d After the fact, they\u2019re signing off on every single line item of deliverable. It says in my contract any increase in more than 10% in scope means we\u2019re renegotiating the contract.<\/p>\n<p>However, I don\u2019t break down the prices. It\u2019s not like, \u201cOkay five videos, that costs this, 10 emails that costs this.\u201d I give them the package price and say, \u201cFor this price, these are all the things that you\u2019re getting.\u201d What happens is then, especially clients that are on a budget, they\u2019ll start to take out things. \u201cWell, if we take out the email on Thursday, that\u2019s $500, so we\u2019ll take that out. It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, if we don\u2019t do the email on Thursday it weakens the entire sequence.\u201d I don\u2019t break it down by price that way for the client. That\u2019s an internal calculation that we do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay. That\u2019s really helpful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So much of what we\u2019ve talked about is all related to the business of copywriting, as opposed to actually doing the copywriting. Obviously you\u2019re a fantastic writer. You\u2019ve really focused in on helping other copywriters with the business side of copywriting as well. Tell us about some of the stuff that you\u2019ve done in that area?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> When I brought Casey on-board and we started looking at these things. I realized there was two skillsets that were not related at all that you need to be a successful copywriter. One is writing copy and that of course is what 99% of courses focus on. There\u2019s literally thousands of copywriting courses on how to write great copy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s what we all do well. That\u2019s why we want to be copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. If that\u2019s something that you need to improve, there\u2019s tons of resources to do that. However, nobody really talks about, \u201cOkay, now you can write great copy. That doesn\u2019t necessarily pay the bills unless you know how to run a business. How do you convert a prospect to a client? If something goes wrong with the client, what do you do? Or if they don\u2019t pay, how do you protect yourself.? How do you manage time? How do manage time? How do you break down these big launches so that you\u2019re communicating with the client?\u201d All these things are skills that every copywriter that I\u2019ve talked to, the only way that they\u2019ve learned it is by messing it up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> I messed it up a ton too. I\u2019ve had clients like, \u201cYou\u2019ve missed the deadline twice now. We can\u2019t go on with the project.\u201d That happened to me early on in my freelancing. Everybody that I know has had experiences where they\u2019ve messed up because they didn\u2019t manage their time properly or their contract was wrong so the client bailed and didn\u2019t pay. I was like, \u201cWhere are those resources?\u201d They don\u2019t exist. I decided to, as I learned these lessons to chronical them. What I did is created a site, it\u2019s actually called TheBusinessOfCopy.com that\u2019s created to have a resource bank of, \u201cOh, I have my first royalty client, that\u2019s happy to do a royalty. How do I structure the contract to make that happen.\u201d There\u2019s no real good answers for that. If you just Google it. I\u2019ve spent a lot of my time when I\u2019m not working on client work, that\u2019s what I\u2019m doing. I feel like it\u2019s a big hole in the market that\u2019s not being served currently.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I am part of that group. Are you calling it a membership or what is it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Because the wording is one of those things, it\u2019s funny because I\u2019m a copywriter. Any copywriter that I\u2019ve ever talked to writing copy for your own things is the most difficult to me. Yes, it\u2019s a membership site. It\u2019s a monthly membership. It\u2019s more like joining a gym. People get a little scared when they\u2019re in a membership site and they can\u2019t consume all the content. You\u2019re not going to use every single machine in the gym. If you need to work on arms this week, you\u2019re going to go and use those machines. You pay a monthly fee to have access to all of the machines and whatever specific ones you need to use today. That\u2019s how the business of copy runs. It\u2019s not one of those courses or sites where you\u2019re expected to go through this journey of week one, you should be consuming this content.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s like I said, \u201cYou have a royalty agreement coming up. You can go into that section of the site and get all the resources or you have a client that\u2019s really pissed off at you about something. There\u2019s a whole section on how to communicate better with clients or you have a live event coming up where you have some people that you would like to make clients. How can you prepare for that so that you can communicate with them and maybe convert them at the live event. There\u2019s a section on that. Really it\u2019s a pic and choose of what you need of those resources are there. It\u2019s not just things that I\u2019ve learned, but it\u2019s resources from colleagues of mine, professional copywriter, marketers, just all kinds of different people. Legal experts, tax experts, all kinds of things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s almost like you take what you need and that will change month to month, but it\u2019s there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I wanted to ask you what gaps you see in the copywriting world, since you\u2019ve been in there, you\u2019ve been on teams, you\u2019ve been doing it on your own for a while. What are a lot of the new copywriter just missing out on? Maybe there are opportunities they\u2019re missing out on because we\u2019re focused over in the opposite direction.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> There\u2019s this interesting thing that\u2019s happening in the copywriter world where there\u2019s a lot of groups out there where people are giving advice that haven\u2019t actually had clients. I feel like that new copywriters are getting this perception of how client management that happens that\u2019s just very wrong. An example they\u2019ll give is we\u2019ve had people say, I\u2019ve seen it. Actually Copywriting Club is one of the good ones because I don\u2019t see those kinds of conversations happening there, but in a lot of the other groups-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wiping the sweat from our brow here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> If you\u2019re active in any of the other copywriting groups, you see that somebody will say, \u201cOh, I have this client that said that they don\u2019t like my copy. What do I do next?\u201d You have these people that will say, \u201cWell, you\u2019re the expert. You tell them, this is the way the copy is supposed to be. If they don\u2019t like it too bad.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cHave you ever had a client, because that\u2019s not how that\u2019s not how it goes at all. I feel like the big hole right now is that people think that you become a copywriter. You can charge 20 grand for a project and then you walk in to these clients and just tell them what for. It\u2019s not how it happens at all. A client-copywriter relationship is very much like a partnership. I liken it to a doctor, I hate when people do that because the way they say it is that we\u2019re saving lives.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t think that\u2019s necessarily true. If you were sick and you Googled around to try and figure out what was wrong with you. You had a vague idea from Google what was wrong and maybe what medication you wanted to take. You went to your doctor and you said, \u201cHey Doc, I think I have this disease. Can you prescribe me this medicine?\u201d The doctor would be a terrible doctor if they said, \u201cOkay.\u201d And they gave you the prescription. If you\u2019re a copywriter and your client says, \u201cI want X, Y, Z and you just give them what they want without adding your expertise, then you\u2019re not doing that client any favors. On the other hand, if the doctor said, \u201cI think actually the better course of treatment would be this other medication for you.\u201d You as the client, as the patient.<\/p>\n<p>If you said, \u201cOkay.\u201d And didn\u2019t ask any questions or if you said no. The doctors can\u2019t force you to do that. It works the same in copywriting. If a client comes to me and say, \u201cI want to do this.\u201d I say, \u201cActually, the better course of action is this.\u201d And they say, \u201cNo. I don\u2019t want to do that.\u201d Well, it\u2019s their site, it\u2019s their launch, it\u2019s their product. They actually get the say, just like you have final say over your own body and what happens. It\u2019s really it\u2019s a partnership. The doctor doesn\u2019t come in and say, \u201cThis is what\u2019s going to happen, and whether you like it or not because I\u2019m the expert. That\u2019s not how client relationships work. I think that\u2019s big misconception that new copywriters are getting from a lot of different areas, which is really unfortunate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I think I\u2019ve seen it happen in our group too. I think people need to call each other out. I think that\u2019s just basically what needs to happen. You are good at that. We have other people in our group and hopefully in other groups where we can start calling each other out respectfully, when it sounds like someone doesn\u2019t actually have clients and they\u2019re dishing out advice because it\u2019s more harmful than helpful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You raise a really good point Abbey.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think a lot of copywriters like to think that we\u2019re going to get to know our client\u2019s businesses so well that we can make any recommendation. The fact of the matter is, they\u2019re still going to know their business better than we will. They\u2019re talking to their suppliers, they\u2019re talking to their customers. We\u2019ll get a good chunk of that, but it\u2019s a partnership. We\u2019re not the CEO of their business even if we know copywriting really, really well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> At the end of the day they\u2019re the ones that are investing. There\u2019s been many times when I worked with Ramit that I wrote an email or I wrote something and he went in a very different direction. I vehemently disagreed with the direction he went in and thought mine was much better. The other copywriters on the team might have agreed with me, but at the end of the day he\u2019s the one that\u2019s paying to send out the email. He\u2019s the one, whose sales are going to be affected if he\u2019s right or wrong. At the end of the day, it\u2019s his decision, it\u2019s his business. I can say to him, \u201cYeah, you know. I think that might be the wrong direction, but at the end of the day if that\u2019s what they want to do or they\u2019ve decided that because they have better information.\u201d I have a really funny story about that with Ramit.<\/p>\n<p>This goes along with him being a really great teacher. He also gave me a lot of space to fail. There was a launch of his Dream Job product. Which teaches people how to get a really good job and negotiate a really good salary. It has interviewing and resume. It\u2019s an excellent program. We were doing a launch of that. I told him that I thought the webinar should be on interview tips, because everything that I was seeing question wise was people were asking about, \u201cHow do I do better in a job interview?\u201d He said, \u201cMost of our customers are not ready for the job interview, they don\u2019t even know what Dream Job they want yet, so we need to focus on that.\u201d I went back and forth with him and said, \u201cNo, I really think we should do webinar and interviews.\u201d He launched this product probably a dozen times up to this point. He said, \u201cAlright, do your webinar on interviews then.\u201d I did it and it was the lowest converting launch that we ever had.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> It was terrible. I totally bombed. I appreciate it. It was a super expensive lesson for him. I appreciated it so much because it cost him money. It cost him money to do that for me, but you can bet that I listened to him from then on about what the customers really wanted, what journey they were at because he just had such a deeper knowledge of them than I did. I had this surface understanding of people asking about interviews because that\u2019s an easy thing to ask about. \u201cHow do I make a better resume? How do I do better in the job interview? The real pain point, it\u2019s going deeper. It was such a great copywriting lesson. It was a great lesson in client management. That sometimes, yeah the clients know their business pretty well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I love that story. I love that you saved the very best for last as we wrap up. Abbey, this has been such a good interview. You\u2019ve given such great advice. If people want to learn more from you, connect with you in other places. Where would they find you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> My blog, which is a conglomeration of everything that we\u2019ve talked about today. That\u2019s at OnLifeAndWriting.com. The business stuff that we talked about is the BusinessOfCopy.com. Some of my client workflows are up on that site and they can get a ton of information there. If they just want to hear me complain about the state of the industry, it\u2019s at OnLifeAndWriting.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We do. Thank you Abbey and please come back again and hang out with us on the show again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> Love to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We\u2019ll have you come back and teach us how to run a chainsaw next time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Abbey:<\/strong> There we go. Perfect.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Copywriter Abbey Woodcock stops by The Copywriter Club Podcast studio to share how she went from being a single mom and journalist struggling to make ends meet to a highly [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[61,3],"class_list":["post-802","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-abbey-woodcock","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #44: Business Systems for Copywriters with Abbey Woodcock - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"[interview] Abbey Woodcock on when you shouldn&#039;t buy that course, setting up systems to manage projects, taking on scary projects, and expecting excellence.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-abbey-woodcock\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #44: Business Systems for Copywriters with Abbey Woodcock - 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