{"id":833,"date":"2017-08-29T14:22:43","date_gmt":"2017-08-29T07:22:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=833"},"modified":"2021-10-27T20:41:07","modified_gmt":"2021-10-27T13:41:07","slug":"imposter-complex-expert-tanya-geisler","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/imposter-complex-expert-tanya-geisler\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #47: Overcoming Impostor Complex with Tanya Geisler"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Do you struggle with impostor syndrome (or more accurately impostor complex)? Then you\u2019re going to love this episode. Tanya Geisler stops by <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> to talk with Rob and Kira all about why we struggle to believe in ourselves and our work. It\u2019s an evolutionary behavior that\u2019s designed to protect us, but in today\u2019s modern world, often keeps us from doing our best and most important work. In this interview Tanya shares:<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the background on the \u201cdiscovery\u201d of impostor complex<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how it affects both men and women<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the three primary reasons we have impostor complex<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the 12 lies of the impostor complex<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the six behavioral traits we default to when we experience impostor complex<\/p>\n<p>Plus Tanya shares a simple \u201chack\u201d for dealing with the impostor complex when it rears its ugly head. You\u2019re going to want to listen to this one.\u00a0Click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6336\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-833-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC047.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC047.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC047.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC047.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=833-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC047.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC047.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/J3Em-IIAQ6I?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Tanya\u2019s TED Talk<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/paulineroseclance.com\/impostor_phenomenon.html?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Pauline Clance<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/therapists.psychologytoday.com\/rms\/name\/Suzanne_Imes_PhD_Atlanta_Georgia_69147?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Suzanne Imes<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/0307452719\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=0307452719&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=96c01c9fd077c5efb087b7bceaaadfa4\"><em>Secret Thoughts of Successful Women<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.neilgaiman.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Neil Gaimon<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/amandapalmer.net?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Amanda Palmer<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Meryl_Streep?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Meryl Streep<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.mayaangelou.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Maya Angelou<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.johnlennon.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">John Lennon<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/brenebrown.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Brene Brown<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Dunning\u2013Kruger_effect\">Dunning Kruger Effect<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Elizabeth_Gilbert\">Liz Gilbert<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/www.chumba.com\/index.html?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Chumba Wumba<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/opensource.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">OpenSource.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/gp\/product\/B00AEFYM2S\/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=9325&amp;creativeASIN=B00AEFYM2S&amp;linkCode=as2&amp;tag=brandstory00-20&amp;linkId=d1cf4edfbab71cd1af899868a4899fe1\">Mean Girls<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ted.com\/talks\/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Amy Cuddy<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/gladwell.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Malcom Gladwell<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for Episode 47 as we chat with leadership coach Tanya Geisler about the Imposter Syndrome and owning your authority, working with a coach, amplifying your voice, and how copywriters can deal with the comparison trap.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Hey, Tanya. Hey, Kira.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re welcome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> That\u2019s so much for having me. Real excited to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We\u2019re excited to have you here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. Tanya, you were recommended from one of our club members, Helen, who said that all the conversations in our club right now are &#8230; Well, not all of them, but a lot of them are around feeling like an imposter, a lot of self-doubt, especially because we have a lot of new copywriters in our club. This is what you talk about day in and day out. So we\u2019re really grateful that you\u2019re here to kind of just address this challenge that we all are facing head on, and hopefully we can help some copywriters along the way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> May it be so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> A good place to start is with your story. You know what, especially as I\u2019ve heard you, I\u2019ve heard your name in the past, watched your TED video, checked out your website, and you\u2019ve stepped into your starring role, but I always wonder, when did you do that, and was it easy for you? Were you always in a starring role? Could you tell us your story?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I want to laugh. The first thing I want to do is laugh. Yeah, it was so easy. No, not much about this has been easy at all. It\u2019s been tons of self-doubt, tons of, \u201cWhat do I know? Who am I?\u201d I talk about there are 12 lies that the Imposter Complex wants us to believe. And I believed them for probably the first &#8230; Even if I put a name, a number on this, I worry that it\u2019s going to trigger people, but really and truly for probably the first four to five years of my work as a leadership coach I was really coming up against the Imposter Complex, like huge. And what I started to recognize was this through line that was inhibiting me from stepping into my starring role. That wasn\u2019t the language that I would\u2019ve had back then, but the through line that was inhibiting me from being the fullest expression of the kind of coach leader that I wanted to be was very similar to the same through lines that were riveting through the experience of my clients.<\/p>\n<p>When somebody named the Imposter Complex, I swear to you it was like I heard the angels sing. It was this like, \u201cOh, it has a name.\u201d It just really dialed things down for me in terms of my self-doubt, and it really then dialed up my sense of purpose and what I was here to help others and help others heal in themselves.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Can we start with what exactly the Imposter Complex is?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yes. I always start with a history lesson. The Imposter Phenomenon is the term coin termed by a clinical psychologist, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes back in 1978. So they were working with high-functioning, high-achieving women, as it happened, and they noticed that with these women, in spite of consistent and irrefutable data to the contrary, these women seemed incapable of internalizing their success.<\/p>\n<p>It didn\u2019t matter what they had done; they would attribute anything that they had done spectacularly well to luck, or fluke, or timing, or having deceived somebody into thinking that they were actually smarter or more capable that they actually are. Failures, on the other than, they were more than able to internalize. So something went wrong, \u201cThat was all my fault.\u201d This was the consistent piece that they kept seeing in all these women that they were working with.<\/p>\n<p>They were high-functioning, like I said, high-achieving women with strong values in mastery, integrity, and excellence. So I always start there. If you\u2019re experiencing the Imposter Complex, then you are high-functioning, high-achieving with strong values of integrity, mastery, and excellence. That\u2019s always the really good news.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing I always want to say when I start talking about this is that you often hear Imposter Complex as synonymous with Imposter Syndrome. Syndrome is actually not correct because that denotes a clinical diagnosis, and this is not a clinical diagnosis. This is an experience. It\u2019s a phenomenon, and it is a complex.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Dr. Rob and Dr. Kira diagnosing your internalized failures, right? Tanya, you mentioned that this is a big deal for women. What about men? Do men also have the complex, and what are the differences?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yes. The short answer is men absolutely experience it. Most of the data points to women so far because that\u2019s where the research in a very substantial way is started. Valerie Young continued the research with her books, <em>Secret Thoughts of Successful Women<\/em>. So once again, men absolutely experience it, but there\u2019s a couple more things to it. One is that it\u2019s actually bioevolutionary in context. We experience it as a way of preventing evolution from happening too quickly. So it shows up on the precipice of something new.<\/p>\n<p>The way men and women tend to deal with something new is very different. We have lots of information that points to men needing to feel about 60% prepared to take on the next task, whereas women need to have a much higher level of assurance to feel like they\u2019re going to be able to do the task. So men are more likely &#8230; I\u2019m really being mindful of the language here because I could see it\u2019s so black and white as I say it in that way. But men tend to be more like, \u201cOkay, I don\u2019t know everything, but I\u2019m still going to go for it,\u201d whereas women, the way we are raised, the way we are taught, the way we are socialized and conditioned is very different, and there are six behavioral traits that are coping mechanism that are more unique to women in that it &#8230; And women identify people, I should say, as well that really further entrenches us in this imposter complex experience.<\/p>\n<p>I also want to say too that it\u2019s men. It\u2019s women. It actually doesn\u2019t discriminate. It wants to make sure that you feel separate from everyone else. So if the center of the universe in your industry is the white male, the further you are from that identification, the more you\u2019re going to feel it. So as a woman of color, you\u2019re going to feel it more. If you\u2019re not able-bodied, if you\u2019re of a different class, if you\u2019re a different &#8230; So all of these contributes, so there\u2019s this real intersectional piece too that we really need to be mindful of.<\/p>\n<p>So we talk about men. We talk about women. But the farther you are from that epicenter of the universe, your industry, or the experience, the more you\u2019re going to feel it. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, totally makes sense. We should note that when we generalize across a gender, we\u2019re talking about 3.5 billion people. And so everybody obviously is going to have a different level of experience and feel this in different ways.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Certainly, and I think it\u2019s important here just to touch on what those behavioral traits are because so much of it speaks to the different kinds of conditioning that we show up with. Again, though, I really want to hold sacred that men absolutely experience this, like huge. And the strategies that we\u2019re going to talk about apply to absolutely everyone. That\u2019s the other good news.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Before we get to the lies and the coping mechanisms, I want to ask, because obviously this is a natural phenomenon, there\u2019s got to be like a genetic reason that we feel this. It\u2019s protective in some way, or it\u2019s defensive. So it\u2019s great that it\u2019s natural, but we also need to recognize that while it may hold us back, it also helps us in some ways, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yep. It keeps us safe, has for lots of years. So, yes, it\u2019s evolutionary and contact. So our job&#8230; And thanks for bringing that in because this isn\u2019t about cutting it off, shutting it down, never experiencing it forever and ever, amen. It\u2019s actually a really important part of the ways in which we have achieved excellence. The way that we keep striving and the way we keep pushing our own edges, it\u2019s important that we recognize that one of the most important things that it tells us is that there\u2019s room for improvement.<\/p>\n<p>As high-functioning, high-achieving people, this is really good news. So there\u2019s all these lies that want to keep us held back, but that nagging belief that there\u2019s room for improvement, that\u2019s what keeps us striving towards mastery. That\u2019s what keeps us on our edge, and that\u2019s what has actually helped us to be these people who have strong values of that mastery, integrity and excellence.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. I was going to say as you were talking about this, there\u2019s part of me that\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no, no. I want to cling to my Imposter Complex,\u201d because in a way I feel like it allows me to push myself, and I kind of cling to it because I\u2019ve told myself a story that this is what keeps me humble. This is what helps me grow. I need it. I don\u2019t want to get rid of it even though I also kind of hate it. So it\u2019s like this strange relationship with it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Absolutely. It\u2019s like fear. We know that we\u2019re never going to completely eradicate fear, but we just need to recognize that it\u2019s here, what it\u2019s here to tell us, and then move on in spite of it, do our due diligence. Again, masterful people with integrity and excellence, that\u2019s what we do. Our job is to recognize what it\u2019s here to tell us and to move forward.<\/p>\n<p>So it really does three primary things, or it has three primary objectives. One is that it wants you to doubt. It wants to keep you out of action. It wants to keep you low, doesn\u2019t want you to get pegged off by the pterodactyl, if this is pretty ancient. It wants to keep you doubting your capacity, and then it also wants to keep you isolated. These are the tree things that it does time and time and time again. When we start to look at how those strategies, how we apply the strategies against those objectives, then we\u2019ve got a fighting chance here.<\/p>\n<p>But, again, it\u2019s here to remind you that what you\u2019re about to do is really important to you. I think it\u2019s also important to remember that &#8230; And I feel like I\u2019ve said \u201cimportant\u201d about 100 times already in this call. We\u2019ve been on the phone for about 10 minutes, so clearly this is important stuff for me. You don\u2019t experience this in every area of your life. Glory be. Hallelujah. You really only experience it in the places that are new and emergent for you.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve got kids, the idea of facing down the barrel of parenting was so much more than you could even begin to imagine, and the fears, and the, \u201cI don\u2019t know what I\u2019m doings, and they\u2019re going to find out that I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m doing, and, and, and.\u201d We just had to get through the act of parenting. We had to just start to be a parent.<\/p>\n<p>The first time we were asked to manage, or the first time we were asked to do a pitch, all of these firsts, when we were starting our business, when we were starting are career, all of these firsts are this place of self-doubt, to be certain, and then skews right over into the Imposter Complex where we have proven track records in specific areas, and we still discount it, and we still externalize the success and internalize the failures.<\/p>\n<p>What I\u2019m trying to say is I\u2019ve got a yoga practice. I have zero need to become masterful in yoga. I have no need for that. My parenting, very important to me. My work as a leadership coach, very important. My authorship, my speaking, these are really important areas. So this is the place that it shows up for me. As a citizen of the world, as a yoga practitioner, as an artist, not so concerned about it. So it\u2019s just to remind you that\u2019s here to tell you what\u2019s really important to you as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You mentioned isolation, that that\u2019s part of the Imposter Complex, wants you to feel isolated. Why is that part of it? What\u2019s that connection?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> It wants you to feel outside of the tribe. The response to that would be to conform, to not swing out too much. This is why we\u2019re afraid of success. That\u2019s why we\u2019re afraid of failure, because either ends of that spectrum, we\u2019re going to be outside of the norm, so it\u2019s always trying to point those places out. It wants you to believe that you\u2019re alone, so it starts to tell you you shouldn\u2019t tell anyone about this. Your experience at the imposter, don\u2019t let anybody find out. Your job is to just &#8230; You\u2019re supposed to want to belong.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re feeling on the fringes, then you\u2019re feeling unsettled. It\u2019s harder for you to continue to move forward and be that pioneer. That way we don\u2019t mutate too fast. That way we don\u2019t evolve too fast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Tanya, at the top of the show you mentioned the 12 lies of the Imposter Complex. Can you tell us what some of those are?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> The first is, I almost feel like this is the only lie we need to know, your self-doubt is proof of your inadequacy. So the fact that you\u2019re feeling self-doubt means that you\u2019re inadequate. The fact that you &#8230; How can you possibly be a leader when you are experiencing self-doubt? How can you possibly be a confident writer if you\u2019re not feeling confident? So it\u2019s just right off the bat self-doubt is proof of your inadequacy. The truth, of course, is that self-doubt is proof of your humanity, not your inadequacy. That\u2019s the first one.<\/p>\n<p>Successful people don\u2019t experience this, is the second lie. So we really love to think that everybody else has it so much better than us; we are the only ones who are sitting in the stew of awfulness. But I just point people to how relieved they feel when they hear that Neil Gaiman has experienced this and talks about it quite vocally. When his partner Amanda Palmer talks about the fraud police, we feel such relief when we hear that.<\/p>\n<p>Meryl Streep said, \u201cI\u2019ve been nominated for an Oscar 18 times, and I keep thinking, \u2018This is the movie they find out that I can\u2019t act.\u2019\u201d It\u2019s amazing, right, and Maya Angelou. So we feel this deep sense of relief when we hear these people at the top of their game experience it. Then we know that we are in exquisite company. We are so far from alone. We\u2019re in exquisite company.<\/p>\n<p>The third lie is that you are all or nothing because it loves to speak incompetence extremities. You are either a raging success or a dismal failure: all or nothing. This one is probably, if I had to go ahead and make up which lie is the one that copywriters feel the most, and, again, I\u2019ll be making that up. I\u2019m not positive that that\u2019s true because I think all of these lies apply to your listeners to be certain, but you have nothing useful, valid or original to say. I think that lie #4, and I think that that is probably up the most. So when we believe this lie, we don\u2019t say anything. We don\u2019t communicate. We pass up opportunities to collaborate with our peers. We don\u2019t say what needs to be said. Does that sound about right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Unfortunately or fortunately, all of these are hitting home for me. I was just thinking back to the you were all or nothing and that extreme #3. I\u2019ve definitely told my husband in conversations just like, \u201cThis project is make or break for me, and if I don\u2019t do well on this project, my business is done.\u201d It\u2019s so extreme and so wrong, but I don\u2019t &#8230; I guess that\u2019s why I do it. It\u2019s the Imposter Complex.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Here\u2019s what I say every time this one comes up because life obviously happens in the in-betweens. Hallelujah. I always think about if you were sitting next to somebody at a dinner party who spoke in such absolutes, all or nothing, complete success, raging failure, you would do one of three things. You\u2019d pick up, and take your wine glass, and move to the next spot away, you\u2019d try to ignore this person. That\u2019s really hard to do, particularly when they\u2019re constantly in your ear like the inner critics and the Imposter Complex can be, or you would challenge this bore with one word. \u201cReally? All or nothing? Complete success or dismal failure?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>By the way, can I just sidebar here? When did Starbucks become the Plan B of everybody? \u201cI\u2019m just going to quit this and get a job in Starbucks.\u201d I don\u2019t know when that happened, but what is that? Really? It\u2019s all or nothing? Lives are at stake here? So just bringing that level of curiosity into the equation starts to crumble. It really starts to crumble.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. You just described I think 80% of my conversations with my 16-year-old. It\u2019s that extreme. It\u2019s the very best thing in the world, the very worst thing in the world. So we\u2019re basically dealing with our inner 16-year-olds.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Hey, now, that\u2019s exactly it. That is exactly it. John Lennon said, and I\u2019m going to get this wrong, I think, at this moment, but, \u201cPart of me suspects that I\u2019m a complete loser, and the other part of me thinks I am God Almighty.\u201d Somewhere in the middle is the truth. So that\u2019s our job is to find what\u2019s in the middle. What\u2019s in the middle?<\/p>\n<p>Lie #5 is you must not tell anyone about this. So it likes to pay you hush money. Just keep it on the down-low. Don\u2019t let anybody know. But really and truly your job is actually to name it. Your job is to say, \u201cI\u2019m nervous to be doing this and excited because it matters,\u201d right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Interesting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Everything\u2019s a contradiction, so lie #6 is you must tell everyone about this, right? So you have to make sure that you are constantly telling everybody how insecure you feel. This is really tricky one, where we really believe this one. I have to tell everyone about this, head it off at the pass, make sure that everybody\u2019s aware that I\u2019m the imposter. This can be really tricky. Particularly if you\u2019re on a management position, this could truly erode some of that cohesion on your team. So just be mindful of that.<\/p>\n<p>Bren\u00e9 Brown has a really &#8230; She has this one expression that I find very helpful when I\u2019m talking to somebody about widing that level of saying too much and not &#8230; just trying to find that calibration, and she says, what is it, \u201cDon\u2019t puff up. Don\u2019t shrink down. Stand your sacred ground.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I like it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I was going to ask how do we find that fine line between #5 and #6? \u201cI must not tell anyone,\u201d and then, \u201cI must tell everything.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I feel like I\u2019m constantly in between there. Am I oversharing? Am I being too vulnerable with clients or even if you\u2019re coaching or teaching a program. Am I sharing too much or is it not enough?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I find that super helpful to just think about, \u201cAm I puffing up? Am I shrinking back?\u201d and even more so just to pause and ask yourself what is the intention behind the sharing. First of all, I think pausing at any time is a great practice for life. We don\u2019t pause enough, if I\u2019m being honest. Just literally put the pause button and ask yourself, \u201cWhat is my purpose for sharing right now?\u201d when you feel like you might be slipping into the land of oversharing, particularly for us people-pleasers, and I\u2019ll say a bit more about that if there\u2019s time.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cAm I looking to connect? Am I looking for sympathy? Or am I looking for something else?\u201d so just getting clear in that moment, \u201cWhat is the intention for me to overshare? Am I looking to bridge? Or am I looking to get some validation?\u201d Then when we are clear about what that is, then I think we know what to say and what not to say.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s great advice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Lie #7: You\u2019re not ready yet. This one, oh my gosh, is really tricky because it\u2019s finally giving you a little slack\u2014finally, right? It\u2019s been like just beating it for the first six lies, but now it\u2019s finally giving you a bit of slack. It\u2019s saying that you\u2019ll be ready one day, but, sugar pie, that day is not today. Maybe when you have got your work in the next three publications when you\u2019ve got 10 more clients, you\u2019ve got 100 more hours, you\u2019ve got the next degree, then you\u2019ll be ready, but that day is just not today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think we see that one all the time with the people in our club, copywriters especially. It\u2019s like, \u201cWell, I need to read this one more book, or I need to take this other course.\u201d That one totally hits home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> But aren\u2019t there times when we just aren\u2019t ready, and we should climb the ladder? I\u2019m just thinking of copywriters who maybe they\u2019ve worked on a couple projects, and they\u2019re like, \u201cHm, I think I can start teaching copywriting.\u201d Maybe they\u2019re just really not ready.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Maybe they\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Or is that something else entirely?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Maybe they\u2019re not, but they\u2019re going to find out. So they can find out, and they\u2019re going to be told. They\u2019re going to be told enough nos or they\u2019re going to be &#8230; So we just have to dial down the impact of what that no means because 9 times out 10, when we\u2019re talking to somebody who\u2019s really in this experience of it, that person who is going to write the one article and then offer a whole course on writing articles, that\u2019s not the person who\u2019s experiencing the imposter problems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s true. Good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> So it\u2019s the person who\u2019s like done, and written, and been published here, and been published there is going, \u201cI\u2019m not ready yet to release this course. I\u2019m not ready yet.\u201d That\u2019s that person, so that\u2019s the person we\u2019re oriented ourselves towards right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yeah?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That makes sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> The other thing, I just wanted to say this, actual frauds don\u2019t feel like frauds. Actual imposters don\u2019t feel like imposters. It\u2019s like this beautiful-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What? That\u2019s so unfair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I know, right? It is, but it\u2019s this great fail-safe things. If I\u2019m feeling like an imposter, probably not an imposter, right? This is where you can start looking at the proof around you. If you can\u2019t see it, this is where one of the strategies comes into play, where we start bringing other people in. But the truth of the matter is there is something called the Dunning\u2013Kruger effect, and it always comes up every time I do any kind of a talk because people are like, \u201cYeah, but aren\u2019t there people who have massive amounts of confidence and very little capabilities?\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cMm-hmm (affirmative), that\u2019s called Dunning\u2013Kruger effect.\u201d They\u2019re not worried about being the imposter. They should, but that\u2019s not actually who\u2019s here in the clubhouse right now asking these questions. I just hope that that offers us a bit of (deep breath). That\u2019s my intention.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> A little bit. It does help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> So you\u2019ll never be able to pull that off again. That\u2019s lie #8. Oh God, you did something super great, but apparently the statute of limitations has just worn out on your capacity to do more fabulous somethings. You\u2019ll never be able to pull that off again. This one shows up. Oh my gosh, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve seen this, but Liz Gilbert did a fantastic talk on what happens after you write <em>Eat, Pray, Love<\/em>. I actually get people in my practice who are like, \u201cI have this great body of work in me, but I\u2019m already afraid of how I\u2019m going to follow that up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> The second record is never as good as the first. The second book is never as good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> That\u2019s it, right, the one-hit wonder. That\u2019s what happened to Chumbawamba, right? They gave in to the Imposter Complex. That\u2019s what happened there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So many \u201880s bands that I can think of with the one hit, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I feel like, Rob, when you edit the show, you need to add some Chumbawamba in here right now.<\/p>\n<p>(singing)<\/p>\n<p>I think of #8, \u201cYou\u2019ll ever be able to pull this off again,\u201d to me I think of that in my business with projects. When a client is happy with your work and they come back, which is a good thing, but I definitely have had moments where I\u2019m like, I kind of want to work with all new clients all the time because then I\u2019m always the underdog trying to prove myself and not trying to follow up one of those hits and dealing with the Imposter Complex.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 But, of course, how good will you allow this to be? What if you don\u2019t even know the next places that you can blow their socks off? You\u2019ve only experienced blowing the sock off. What if you blow like the entire outfit off? You don\u2019t know because you\u2019ve never really &#8230; Right? So just hold the possibility, but that\u2019s what happens next, that minds get blown, not just socks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> As you said, all the clothes get blown off. It\u2019s a great visual.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yeah. Woo-hoo!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I might have to find something to link to for that as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Lots of visuals, audio, notes here. Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> It\u2019s just a matter of time before this all crumbles beneath you. This is the next lie. This is where we stop. This is where we also lay low. It\u2019s trying to keep us out of action, so it\u2019s all just a matter of time before this crumbles beneath you, so this is where we start to dress rehearse disaster. This is where we stop appreciating. This is where we stop creating, because what\u2019s the point? We\u2019re never going to be able to top this. This is where I really challenge you to think, what if the other shoe wasn\u2019t about to drop? How good will you actually allow this to be?<\/p>\n<p>You can\u2019t trust the praise of others is lie #10. This one, again, is really up for people-pleasers. Last week I was in Chicago doing a talk, and I was reading Opensource.com. This, I can feel this in my throat. A transgender woman in tech was writing about her experience on a team. She was saying that when they go out for drinks, when they go out together as a group, she literally trusts, she has legitimate concerns for her safety when she goes out, but she can feel the trust. She can feel that her team has her back. She can literally trust them with her life, so her question was, \u201cI can trust them with my life. Why can\u2019t I trust them with their praise?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> We think they\u2019re just being nice. It\u2019s really actually painful when we can see that, when we can feel the way that we dismiss the acknowledgments, we dismiss the praise of others. We so desire it, but we dismiss it. So really our job is to dare to believe someone that when they tell us how remarkable we are. Just dare to believe them. Dare to believe what they\u2019re reflecting back, and then say the two words that the Imposter Complex hates more than any other words. Do you know what they are?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> it\u2019s got to be \u201cThank you\u201d or \u201cYou\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yes! \u201cThank you\u201d and \u201cYou\u2019re right,\u201d but, \u201cThank you.\u201d We just, Imposter Complex hates that because we\u2019re already borrowing this truth. It does not like that whatsoever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That one goes way beyond work relationships as well. That\u2019s personal relationships. I think the ability to accept a compliment and believe that it\u2019s actually real and not just somebody trying to flatter you or make you feel good, that\u2019s tough I think for a lot of people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Can I just tell you that each one of these lies is a massive body of work unto itself. We could talk all day on each one of these lies because they are so rife. But I think that our job when we receive an acknowledgment is to recognize that it\u2019s intended as a gift. So just like you receive any gift, it might not fit. You might be allergic to the mohair of the sweater, you might, but the intention behind it was true. The intention was coming from a really beautiful place. It just might not fit you.<\/p>\n<p>So I just invite people to think that this might not be your capital T Truth, but it is somebody else\u2019s capital T Truth. So just dare to believe that, and then receive it as the acknowledgement, as the gift that it was intended and say thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> It makes me think of Mean Girls, the movie Mean Girls. I think that\u2019s where we doubt it, right? We kind of go back to high school, eighth grade, and movies like that, and just pop culture, where it\u2019s like we\u2019re dishing out compliments that we don\u2019t really mean, and it\u2019s just cattiness. I think there\u2019s part of you that could go and kind of revert back to middle school or like, \u201cI don\u2019t know if actually they\u2019re insulting me. This isn\u2019t a true compliment.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yeah. So your people want you to succeed, your people. I think that that\u2019s, as we get more sophisticated, we start to know who our people are. Not everybody actually wants you to succeed, not everybody does. That\u2019s just true, but your people do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> So you\u2019re going to have to fake it until you make it is lie #11.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Ooh, that\u2019s a good one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I got in so much trouble for this one last week at that speaking gig. And I\u2019ve actually had dinner with Amy Cuddy when she was in Toronto. Last March she was here. She was doing a talk. It was hilarious. You know Amy Cuddy\u2019s work, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> A TED Talk. It was hilarious. At one point we stepped out to have a little chat. All these people kept coming up to her. I wish you could see me right now. You could imagine. They\u2019re like, \u201cAmy Cuddy!\u201d They\u2019d go immediately into Wonder Woman power puffs. The number of selfies that that woman has to take with people, the Wonder Woman pose, and arms, and spread-eagle, it\u2019s quite hilarious. Anyway, so she has done a huge body of work on power poses. And there\u2019s obviously some really important science underneath physical manifestations of these power poses so that you can borrow confidence until it\u2019s baked right into you.<\/p>\n<p>So that\u2019s the one part. She does speak about faking it until you make it in her first TED Talk. She\u2019s revised it a little bit too. I think she said something like fake it until you become it. So I still get it, but here\u2019s the thing: For me, time and time again, I\u2019ve been doing this work for 10 years now, every single time I know that somebody is consciously turning on the, \u201cI\u2019m going to fake it,\u201d all that does is engender, really further entrenches this deep-seated belief that they are fake.<\/p>\n<p>Here\u2019s the other place I\u2019d have you look. Root into what is true, and authentic, and legitimate about your existing capacity, your existing talents, your existing strengths, and work from there. That\u2019s so much more enduring to embody what already exists for you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We see this a lot in the marketing world where somebody will shoot a video at fancy home they\u2019ve rented or in front of cars that they don\u2019t own. People want to look like they\u2019ve got it all in order to sign on the next customer. I think there\u2019s a real danger of people thinking that faking it until you make it is a viable business strategy. Even if that\u2019s what you\u2019re sort of feeling as part of the Imposter Complex, it\u2019s not a good place to let your mind go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Particularly for this audience, right, copywriting, the proximity to the heart. We feel the truth pouring off the pages, and we feel the dissonance when it\u2019s not there. So just work from your strengths. Work from your existing capacity. Grow it to be certain. That\u2019s our job. That\u2019s our evolution, but just work from here because the last thing we need to do is to feed the Imposter Complex anything. It\u2019s already got plenty of power. It doesn\u2019t need any more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. I\u2019m excited for #12. I feel like these all have been so good. What\u2019s #12?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s the bonus.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Okay, so here is my Imposter Complex kicking in. I\u2019m kidding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Make it good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> \u201cI know I\u2019ll never be able to pull that off again.\u201d Yeah, asking help is for suckers. This is where we really want to stay alone again. After I did my TEDx Talk, I did give attribution to Pauline Clance. She\u2019s been a huge advocate of my work. So I sent her these 12 lies, and she was like, \u201cYes, 1 through 11 you\u2019ve got it, totally 100% yes.\u201d Twelve, this was really tricky for her because the majority of her research was done back in \u201878. That was a very different time for women in academic industry. It really was truly legitimately a liability to ask for help.<\/p>\n<p>But now you can see it. You can feel it. The people who &#8230; Your people, once again, your people want you to succeed. Let them help you. You can see all of the places in your own life, in your own success where you have gone so much further, when you have allowed other people in to support you. Nine times out of 10 when somebody is at the precipice and they could use a little bit of help, but they\u2019re afraid to ask for it, everything changes the moment they are open to that help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, so much good stuff. So we\u2019ve covered the 12 lies. How do we cope with them? How do we fix it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. Please tell us. What do we do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I have a little bad new before I got the good news. I just need you to know the reason I am so, I am literally at the edge of my seat right now, this is so huge because the behavioral traits are if somebody exhibit, if you\u2019re experiencing the Imposter Complex, you\u2019re going to try to avoid the experience of the Imposter Complex by going to one of these six behaviors and sometimes more than once.<\/p>\n<p>Procrastination, perfectionism, leaky boundaries, comparison, people-pleasing, and diminishment, so these are the things that you\u2019re going to do to avoid. You\u2019re going to make sure that people like you. You don\u2019t want to feel like the imposter, so you\u2019re going to make sure that people like you, but all of these behavioral traits are actually double-binds, which means that it has you coming and going.<\/p>\n<p>If your go-to &#8230; Mine happens to be people-pleasing, so I want to make sure that everybody likes me. It\u2019s really important that I fit in and that people really like me. But guess what happens? When I\u2019m invited to speak, when I\u2019m invited to do something, my imposter complex wants to tell me it\u2019s not because I am brilliant or talented or experienced or the expert in my field. It\u2019s going to want to point out it\u2019s just because they like me. That\u2019s what creates this double-bind. It gets you coming and going.<\/p>\n<p>So your perfectionist tendencies are something that you go to as a result because of your Imposter Complex, but all that does is further entrenches your belief. This is where my mind just blew open. I just discovered this about maybe half a year ago that all of these behavioral traits, these behavioral attributes, they actually feed off of each other as well. So if you have leaky boundaries, then you might also be experiencing a lot of comparison. You might also be experiencing people-pleasing. You might be experiencing perfectionism.<\/p>\n<p>Again, 3.-however many billion people in the planet, it\u2019s going to look a little bit different for everybody, and you don\u2019t experience all of the lies at the same time, thank God, nor do you experience all of these behavioral traits at the same time, thank God. You\u2019d never get out of bed if you did. But in some point or another, if you\u2019re experiencing Imposter Complex, one of these behavioral traits is coming in, and that\u2019s why it\u2019s like this multi-headed Hydra. It\u2019s so pervasive.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh my goodness.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019m like, well, I\u2019d have all of these behaviors all the time. It\u2019s just very interesting, all of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yeah, so that\u2019s what we have to unpack it. Do you see? It\u2019s just so up. Rob, how you doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I\u2019m procrastinating asking my next question. And my boundaries are feeling a little leaky at the moment, but\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> A little bit leaky.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> But you\u2019re comparing yourself to Kira, so okay, awesome. I just want to name that. Again, my intention is to let you like, this is part of the experience. So you\u2019re not going crazy. It\u2019s not a clinical diagnosis. This is something that happens to people with strong values of integrity, mastery, and excellence, and that\u2019s what I\u2019m here to talk about. Okay? That\u2019s like, yay, you\u2019re experiencing these things.<\/p>\n<p>If we break down those three objectives that it has, it wants to keep us out of action. It wants to keep us dead in our capacity, and it wants to keep us alone and isolated. Our strategies need to be focused on those three objectives. So I have a process that I call Step Into You Starring Role. There are six steps to it. They\u2019re all equally important, but for those of you who are like jonesing to find the solution, we need to look at these three objectives.<\/p>\n<p>But I will back up and say our job as we decide what it is we want to do, we need to orient ourselves to the starring role. That\u2019s the language that I use. So that starring role is an expression of your authority. It\u2019s the expression of your next thing that you\u2019re trying to move towards, and we\u2019re always moving towards something. That\u2019s what progress is. So just naming it is super important. What is it that we think that we want to be doing? Is it published author? Is it visionary? What is the thing that you really want to be stepping into?<\/p>\n<p>When I do this work with people, if it\u2019s not actually wrinkling the Imposter Complex, then it\u2019s probably not the next thing for you. You\u2019re probably already the writer that you think that you want to be, but really it\u2019s like this more &#8230; What is the deeper expression that wrinkles the Imposter Complex, because that\u2019s your desire. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. So you\u2019re saying when I\u2019m in the kitchen cooking dinner, I could care less. I\u2019m not a perfectionist because that\u2019s not what I\u2019m trying to master, basically.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> There you go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019m not comparing myself to someone else in the kitchen.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yep. You\u2019re fine. Four food groups or three, three food groups are being handled for good, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Everyone\u2019s alive. That\u2019s fine. But in terms of the work, like industry leader, right? That might be award-winning. Whatever the thing is, just get clear on what it is. That\u2019s huge for some people, and that really can keep people in a specific place. So that might be your work right there is to name your desire. The next place I have people look is to determine what your brand of joy is. So this is the real value\u2019s work of what coaches tend to do, but this the real alignment. So for me, I\u2019ll just break it down, I want to experience joy in everything that I do. I wanted to experience joy in this conversation, in my coaching, in my relationships. It\u2019s how I want to feel in all that I do. I have to understand what brings me joy, and what brings me joy is going to be different for you, Kira. It\u2019s going to be different for you, Rob. It\u2019s certainly different for my husband. His word for what I call joy is success. Once you get that, oh my gosh, it really changes everything.<\/p>\n<p>We start to recognize how the places that we\u2019re suffering, the places that are really the places that we\u2019re out of alignment. So for me, what constitutes joy is generosity, connection, and gratitude. So when I\u2019m out of joy, I know that I need to go back to that trifecta. So in this conversation I wanted to be as generous as possible. I wanted to be seriously grateful. I never wanted to take this for granted that I get to be having these conversations. And I want to feel connected to you two and everyone listening. So that\u2019s how I access joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Are you just reminding yourself of this trifecta at all times? Before you got on\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> &#8230;this podcast with us, were you like, \u201cOkay, this is a trifecta.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yep.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> \u201cThis is how I can channel it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Yep. Every time I sit down to write a piece, how do I want to feel? I want to feel joy. How am I going to do that? Alright. So sometimes a connection will look like, \u201cWhat does that mean?\u201d I need to be more honest, or I need to be more connected to my intention or my desire for the person reading. Whatever it is, it\u2019s going to mean something to me almost every time. But honestly it really, once I got this, it really changed everything for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> This feels like the kind of thing too that it\u2019s not a five-minute exercise. I mean, it takes a lot of contemplation and thinking through. Really, where do you get that reward?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> It takes some time. It takes some introspection. It\u2019s all here. You already know what this is. You already know these experiences, and sometimes it\u2019s as simple as thinking back to a day when you felt truly, truly alive. And in that moment you felt whatever that word is. Then being an investigative reporter I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, what else is showing up when feel that experience of contentment or aliveness or freedom or success or joy? What else is there?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s my invitation is to be thinking what your own brand of joy is because trust me when I tell you this does change everything. That helps you as you work with the Imposter Complex, which is the next &#8230; These are the next three steps in the Step Into Your Starring Role process. The first is you got to meet the critics. So this is right back to the original objective that it has to keep you out of action. It\u2019s going to throw down all sorts of reasons you can\u2019t step into your starring role: You can\u2019t be the industry leader. Some of those will be realistic objections, and some of those will be inner critic objections. Some of them will be actual critics. We\u2019re going to hear voices of people who are terrified of what\u2019s going to change if we truly become an industry leader.<\/p>\n<p>Our job now is to deconstruct. Am I dealing with a realistic objection? If I am, what are the gaps I need to fill? Am I dealing with an inner critic? Alright. How am I going to deal with that inner critic? Am I dealing with an actual critic? Okay. How am I going to deal with that? So our job is to really, all of these blocks, get clear about what\u2019s actually here. Again, so much simpler said than done, but that\u2019s can\u2019t get around it, right? We have to face these beliefs, these objections, and these people. And we got to take them down if we are serious about stepping into our starring role, which I believe we are.<\/p>\n<p>The next place is it has us doubting our capacity. This, we got to go inside before we go outside. But this is where we remind ourselves absolutely every single thing that we have done. And here\u2019s where we like to step outside of ourselves. We like to stop. We want to discount our successes. That\u2019s just like Imposter Complex 101. It\u2019s going to have us discounting our successes. So we have to stay with it. We have to really look at all of the strengths. We have to look at the wins, what we have authored, what we have delivered, what we\u2019ve sold, what we\u2019ve healed, what we\u2019ve survived. We have to look at all of it, and I mean all of it.<\/p>\n<p>We have to get into better practice of tracking our wins, getting in a better practice of tracking our good decisions. The ego is going to make sure that we\u2019re on to the next thing and that we haven\u2019t integrated the hard work, so our job needs to be a more regular practice of looking at all that we have done. When I ask people to name everything they\u2019ve done, I say, \u201cTake a half an hour and write it all out,\u201d people want to get so in their heads about, \u201cHow does the seventh grade spelling bee relate to my desire to launch this business? How are the two connected?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Your job when you\u2019re looking at bolstering your authority thesis is not so much to connect those two dots; it\u2019s to remind yourself on a cellular level every single time that you have been on the precipice of your desires and jumped, and did the work in spite of the resistance, and so that the party was on the other side of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> So what are some examples of how we can do this? I\u2019m just thinking through. It helps to have colleagues. So I\u2019ll go to Rob if I\u2019m dealing with Imposter Complex, and Rob is always very nice to me and will remind me of some things that I\u2019ve done that are successful, so it seems it\u2019s helpful to have people, the community maybe even just like saving those testimonials, positive emails in a special folder, but what else can we do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Kira, you\u2019re two steps ahead. You are literally two steps ahead. You\u2019re the next step and the next step as well, so\u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Ah, perfect.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> &#8230;gold star!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I need that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Because you have to go inside first. So the reason &#8230; So, how sweet is he? You say, \u201cRob\u2019s really nice, and he tells me these things.\u201d He\u2019s not telling you these because he\u2019s nice, people-pleasing. He\u2019s telling you-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Because Rob is really not nice. We all know that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Because it\u2019s true. But that\u2019s why I\u2019m really wanting to point you to inside job first because when we are then bolstered from the inside, recognizing our own strengths, our own capacity, one, we can start looking to external validation to the tweets, to the testimonials, to the amazing feedback, to all of those things, and definitely gather those in a physical folder.<\/p>\n<p>So brag #4, or 5, or 6, I don\u2019t know, one of my dearest friends from high school just got assigned as Bureau Chief of Canada for the New York Times. She\u2019s literally the only Canadian for <em>The New York Times<\/em> right now. There\u2019s like some guy, there\u2019s somebody in Ottawa, so this is a big deal. One of the ways that she felt confident to get on that plane to go to New York was looking at this physical folder of testimonials, and awards, and all of the times that she has been reminded by others just how remarkable and life-changing her writing really is. It\u2019s so deeply important.<\/p>\n<p>So inside, and then you can go outside because then it\u2019s not like water off a duck\u2019s back. You can actually allow the accolades, the acknowledgements to start to seep in, particularly if you are a people-pleaser. Then the third strategy, again wants to keep you alone and isolated, this is where you assemble the cast. Make sure that you are surrounded by people that can see you, that are willing to reflect back what they see. This is really getting mindful about who you\u2019re surrounding yourself with.<\/p>\n<p>You have each other, and you can see the way you compliment each other is glorious to witness, really. Who else is on your cast? Who are the people that can remind you of your strengths? Who are the people who can help to point out when you are buying into a specific lie or when you are stuck in one of those behavioral traits? Who are those people? and really trying to round out the experience of your life with the people that will remind you all that you are, remind you to bring more fun into your life, so just really looking at the kind of support you want, the kind of support you need, the kind of support you\u2019d love to have.<\/p>\n<p>Then we\u2019ve got all of this. We\u2019ve got we know what we\u2019re doing. We know how we\u2019re doing it. We\u2019ve met the critics. We\u2019ve bolstered our authority thesis. We\u2019ve assembled the cast. Now you got to do the work. You\u2019ve got to do the work of writing, of coaching, of pitching, of baking. Whatever it is that you need to do, you need to do the work.<\/p>\n<p>Malcolm Gladwell speaks of the 10,000 hours it takes to become a world-class expert. But I think it\u2019s more like 10,000 choices. What are we choosing to do when somebody else\u2019s needs come up in front of ours? Every single person on your show, every conversation you\u2019ve had comes down to there is no real shortcut to mastery, that that\u2019s in this work. It\u2019s the doing of the work. I think it\u2019s really important that we make sure that we hit on #6, and that\u2019s celebrate because we are so quick to move on to the next. That\u2019s how the ego works. It wants to want more than it wants to get. So we forget this part. We forget to integrate. We forget rest and remind ourselves that this felt state of accomplishment is good. It\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> That\u2019s why it\u2019s so hard for us to go back to listing our accomplishments, because we don\u2019t take the time to note them, to celebrate them, to go over them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right. We\u2019re not having the celebratory parties to celebrate everything we\u2019re doing well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> We have so many beliefs about that, like, it has to be a party. Actually, it has to be a plus and like a bam. Sometimes it\u2019s just that. But just taking that moment so-<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Tonya, I want to ask because I imagine that there\u2019s somebody out here that\u2019s listening to this and thinking, \u201cI didn\u2019t win the spelling be in seventh grade. I didn\u2019t graduate with great grades. My marriage has failed. I got fired from my job. I don\u2019t have any of that stuff to celebrate or to fall back on, and I really, truly am an imposter.\u201d What would you <strong>say to that person?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> I would go back to actual imposters don\u2019t feel like imposters, very, very first place. Then I would get even more granular about what is it that you\u2019re deeply wanting. So spelling bee, marriage, driver\u2019s license, that\u2019s another place we like to hide out. All of these things that I didn\u2019t do, what did you do? What did you do? And how does that actually connect to your desires? We\u2019re talking about copywriting, for instance, because now that we\u2019ve opened this up, sure we\u2019re talking about copywriting, but we\u2019re also talking about all sorts of other things in our life.<\/p>\n<p>But what is it that you deeply desire? And then how do things line up to bolster your authority in that specific area? So what have you authored? What have you written? If it\u2019s been a dismal failure after dismal failure, what is that desire still actually about? And where did that person leave themselves in their own writing that\u2019s still calling them back? Because that\u2019s what\u2019s happening for that person right there. What if I wrote in my way?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Tanya, I know we\u2019re at the end of our hour and our time together, and this has been just so fascinating for both of us, I\u2019m sure. For listeners who are like, \u201cOkay, you\u2019ve shared all of this. I just kind of want a hack. I just want to feel like I\u2019m not an imposter, and kick the perfectionism and procrastination and all of that today.\u201d Is that even possible? What\u2019s next? Now that we know all of these things that you\u2019ve shared with us today, what do we do with all of it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> First of all, just I\u2019m going to say it again, actual imposters don\u2019t feel like imposters. So if you\u2019re experiencing it &#8230; And sometimes that might just be enough for you to go, \u201cOh, okay. The fact that I\u2019m experiencing this, A, means that I\u2019m not an imposter, and, B, means that I have strong values in mastery, integrity, and excellence.\u201d That might be more than enough to get you to make that next pitch. That might be all that you needed today, and that\u2019s fantastic.<\/p>\n<p>If you want to next-level this, that\u2019s when you really start to look at, \u201cWhat are my limiting beliefs? Why do I keep coming up against this? I\u2019m super frustrated. I know that I\u2019m better than this, but I keep coming up against it.\u201d So that\u2019s where you start getting pretty granular about meeting the critics, about bolstering your authority thesis, and about making sure that you ware surrounded by the best of the best of the best.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Such good stuff. Like Kira just said, we\u2019ve used up our hour. I feel like we\u2019ve been on the couch with our personal business coach and psychologist. You\u2019ve just given us so much to think about and to even work on. Tanya, if people want to connect with you or find out more about you, see your TED Talk, where would they be going to get all of that stuff?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Tanyageisler.com is my site, and they can email me tanya@tanyageisler.com. On my site, you\u2019ll find the 12 lies of the Imposter Complex. You\u2019ll find a very short four-video series called The Imposter Complex 101. Super fancy. I have the Step Into Your Starring Role Playbook, which is an 11-week self-guided exploration. It\u2019s pretty amazing stuff. When you do that, you actually get office hour calls with me as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Fantastic. Yeah, great.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thank you, Tanya.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> Thank you so much for having me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thanks for showing up, and connecting, and empowering your trifecta, and connecting with us, being grateful, giving so much to our community. It\u2019s just been really powerful. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yes, so good. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tanya:<\/strong> It\u2019s totally my joy. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Do you struggle with impostor syndrome (or more accurately impostor complex)? Then you\u2019re going to love this episode. Tanya Geisler stops by The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk with Rob [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[3,64],"class_list":["post-833","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-podcast","tag-tanya-geisler"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #47: Overcoming Impostor Complex with Tanya Geisler - The Copywriter Club<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"[interview] Tanya Geisler talks about the 12 lies of the impostor complex, the behaviors we revert to when dealing with it, and ideas for overcoming yours.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/imposter-complex-expert-tanya-geisler\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"TCC Podcast #47: Overcoming Impostor Complex with Tanya Geisler - 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