{"id":943,"date":"2017-10-17T14:56:19","date_gmt":"2017-10-17T07:56:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=943"},"modified":"2018-01-04T10:44:07","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T03:44:07","slug":"copywriter-ryan-johnson","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-ryan-johnson\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #53: The 7 deadly email funnel sins with Ryan Johnson"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Ryan Johnson, Head Copywriter at IWT (short for <em>I Will Teach<\/em>, Ramit Sethi\u2019s company) steps up to the microphone with Kira and Rob for the 53rd episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast. <\/em>This interview covers a lot of ground, including:<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how after a grueling interview in his car, Ryan failed to get a job with IWT only to get hired a few months later (never give up)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to get inside the head of your client so you can speak with his or her voice<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0his process for laying out all the moving pieces of a launch, and<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he maps emotions to his launch plans so customers can\u2019t wait to respond<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the 7 deadly email funnel sins<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0two reasons to use long-form sales pages<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the \u201cleap stacking\u201d technique he uses to help his writers uplevel their skill (and what doesn\u2019t work when trying to improve)<\/p>\n<p>Plus Ryan shares the \u201ccopy levers\u201d that Gary Bencivenga used to get better at his craft, how he avoids writer\u2019s block, and the one thing he would do if he had to start his career all over. Lots of good stuff packed into this episode. To hear it, click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_6265\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-943-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC053.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC053.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC053.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC053.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=943-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC053.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC053.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/about\/about-ramit\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Ramit Sethi<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/the-briefcase-technique\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The Briefcase Technique<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.abraham.com\/about\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Jay Abraham<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">IWT<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/AIDA_(marketing)?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AIDA<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/marketingbullets.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Gary Bencivenga<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/copywriter-abbey-woodcock\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Abbey Woodcock<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/prettyflycopy.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Justin Blackman<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/prettyflycopy.com\/the-headline-project\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">The Headline Project<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, and then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the club for episode 53 as we chat with in house copywriter, Ryan Johnson, about he became a copywriter and landed a job writing for Ramit Sethi, how he tackles a massive launch, capturing the voice of your client, and how long it takes him to write a 50 plus page sales letter.<\/p>\n<p>Ryan, welcome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yes, welcome Ryan.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s great to have your here, and I think a great place to start is just with your story of how did you end up becoming a copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> It was kind of a circular process to copywriting. I didn\u2019t even know what copywriting was at the very beginning. My original interests were in film and creative writing, which led me into a delightful career waiting tables. After a few years of that, my first real job was in instructional design, and I was editing textbooks, and building training programs. I actually ended up designing an associates degree in business. I packaged and edited textbooks on business, and economics, and entrepreneurship before I realized that doing that was with no experience was totally crazy. But it was a good baseline.<\/p>\n<p>But while I was doing this, I can still remember. I was in the middle of editing this 500 page textbook on economics, which is about as exciting as it sounds, and my wife was working as a creative copywriter, and she was getting paid much, much more than me to edit this glossy one page ad. It looked like so much fun and so much easier than what I was doing. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m doing something wrong, \u2018cause there\u2019s clearly a cap on where I am, and there\u2019s no clap over here.\u201d So shortly after I figured out how I could transition into marketing, into copywriting. It\u2019s been a race every since.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re working as an in house copywriter, but what does that look like today? What is the day to day &#8230; How do you spend your time? What are you working on? Those kinds of things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yeah, so with Ramit at IWT \/ Growth Lab, I am the head of the sales team and the editorial teams. I oversee all of the in-house copywriters in all these different facets, all the material that we produce.<\/p>\n<p>All the blog posts, emails, sales pages, up sale pages, all the little copy that you don\u2019t think about, but ties all this stuff together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And how did you connect with Ramit?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I was a longtime reader, I\u2019ve been with Ramit for over six years now. But back in the very beginning, I was just reading his blog, and he had an advertisement for a case study writer, just a freelance position a few hours a week, and I applied for it. It was the most grueling application that I had been through. There was multiple rounds of tests I had to go through, samples I had to do, interviews. Actually, I took the interview, I took it on a lunch break at work, it was in the middle of the summer. I\u2019m in my car, it\u2019s 100 degrees, and I\u2019m just roasting in the car.<\/p>\n<p>And he asked me, \u201cHey, give me an example of somebody that\u2019s doing copywriting well, content marketing well.\u201d And my mind totally blanked, and I knew instantly, I just lost this, it\u2019s over. And sure enough, I didn\u2019t get the position. But I had been reading Ramit for a while, and I knew about his briefcase technique and a lot of the great material he had, so I called in sick the next day, spent the whole day preparing a briefcase to sell Ramit on why I was the right guy. And I ended up doing that twice with two different proposals for Ramit.<\/p>\n<p>I still didn\u2019t get the position, he hired someone else. But that person fizzled out. He called me a few weeks later and said, \u201cHey, you still interested, you want to give it a shot?\u201d Absolutely. So I started writing case studies for him, and that quickly turned into other types of blog posts. And yeah, six years later, taking on more and more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow. Okay, cool. So I\u2019d love to hear more about the path copywriters can follow &#8211; and I know it\u2019s different for everyone, but for a copywriter that\u2019s listening that wants to become a top, high-performing copywriter, or even potentially in-house managing a team, where should they start early on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think there\u2019s one path that you can take. There\u2019s definitely threads that a lot of the successful writers have in common. My path is a bit unusual, because I started in literature and film and storytelling, and then I was in instructional design and product development. And it was only after years of that, that I moved into copywriting and direct response, and I was writing ads and sales letters and brochures.<\/p>\n<p>That foundational experience has really impacted how I approach copy. And most copywriters don\u2019t come in with a foundation in product development, really thinking about the product. They look at it, and think okay, what are the benefits of this? But not the impact on the person actually using it.<\/p>\n<p>And I did sales copywriting for a while, and I kept running into blocks. Challenges like man, it would be a whole lot easier to sell this if the product was a little bit different. Or, if our brand had a slightly different position. Setting things up to make it harder to sell. And I could see this in other businesses as well. And that led me into brand and into strategy, really trying to get to the root cause of a lot of these things.<\/p>\n<p>And those in turn were very powerful in the copywriting that I was doing as well. So I became a Swiss army knife, where I could come in and look at a piece of copy, as direct response. I could look at it as editorial. I could think about the brand implications of it. It allowed me to be versatile in a way that a lot of copywriters aren\u2019t. A lot of copywriters are very, very specialized. \u201cI write sales letters for the financial industry, in this one format. And if you want that I can do a pretty good job, but if you want anything else, if your brand is different in any way, eh, it\u2019s going to be hard.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So what I think helps a lot of writers who really make it to that top level is, yeah, be good at what you\u2019re doing, but also try and get out of that bubble that you\u2019re in. Look at different types of copy. Build that versatility, because the best can take those core lessons and apply them to other things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s talk about that just a little bit more. Obviously a lot of the stuff that you\u2019re writing on a daily basis is not in your own voice, you\u2019re working for somebody else, and it\u2019s in his voice, it\u2019s his products or at least the brand he\u2019s built around himself. How do you get yourself into another person\u2019s shoes in order to create copy that reflects, like you\u2019re saying, their brand or their personality?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> For me, a lot of it is acting. With my background in screenwriting, one of the things I had to do was write a lot of screenplays. There\u2019s a lot of different characters in a screenplay, that means I\u2019m writing dialogue for different people. I\u2019m writing dialogue for the husband, dialogue for the wife, dialogue for the villain, dialogue for the hero, dialogue for the child.<\/p>\n<p>To do that, I would literally stand up, pretend to be that person, and act it out, and try and even do it in their voice. That\u2019s hard at first, but it gets easier and easier, and pretty soon you can start to feel what that person is feeling, think what that person is thinking.<\/p>\n<p>The same is true in copywriting. If you have a client with a particular voice, it\u2019s about getting into their mindset and being able to pretend that you\u2019re them. Reading all their material, watching all of their videos. How would they think through this problem? How would they express this? And you can shortcut it, but looking at what they say over and over and over again &#8211; what\u2019s the phraseology that they would use to describe x? And you can collect some of those things, start to build a map for how they think about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I like that idea of acting it out, I can say I have never done that and I really need to do that to embrace the voice of my clients. And it could be really fun, right? Get costumes, wigs, maybe that\u2019s going too far?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> A good example is Jay Abraham. Jay Abraham has a very particular voice. He\u2019s very articulate, he has a great vocabulary. And the way Jay\u2019s mind works, he understands so many different industries and ideas and strategies, and they\u2019re all coming into his head at once. and you can see it in the way he speaks and the way he writes, because he lists a lot of things. \u201cHey, you could do this. You could send it out via partnerships, the direct sales, the phone team, whatever it is.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And you see those lists, and those are just all of those different options, popping into his head. He sort of tosses a question out there, and he gets multiple answers back to back to back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No, I\u2019d love to hear more about your writing process, once you get past that stage where you really understand the voice. What does it look like, as far as the time required for research, especially since you\u2019re working with a team. What actually happens behind the scenes?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> If you\u2019re producing copy, one of the things you need to do is research to really dive into the customer, into the product. One of the things you hear a lot of copywriters talk about is discovering the actual words that the customer uses, so that you can bake those into your copywriting.<\/p>\n<p>One of the great things about working on a team, the idea of a team, is that we have a whole product team totally focused on deep customer research, baking that into the products, and sharing that information.<\/p>\n<p>So any project that we come onto, we are building off of a lot of that core work that they\u2019ve already done. So if you\u2019re a solo copywriter, you can do that work on your own. But one of the advantages that we have is, baking that into the process ends up saving us time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Can I ask about the process leading up to a launch? How do you guys as a team work together to decide who\u2019s doing which piece, how many pieces there are, whether it\u2019s emails or landing pages, your follow-up sequences, videos? How does that all come together, then how do you distribute the work to your team? What does that all look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> That is a gigantic question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I asked it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Product launch, building a funnel, there\u2019s so many different aspects of it. How do you start it, how do you build it, the timing and all this. It\u2019s really easy to get overwhelmed. One of the things that I find very helpful to break this down is to think about it in terms of layers. Put all these layers in. Then it\u2019s a lot easier to assign each piece out.<\/p>\n<p>The first layer that I think about is just a pure structural layer. Okay, so you\u2019re launching a product. What is the launch date? When do sales actually open? When do sales close? Let\u2019s put those two pillars into the ground. Are there any other things you know at this time? Maybe there\u2019s a webinar that you know of. Maybe there\u2019s some affiliate promotions that are involved, you know the dates on them. When does the funnel actually start?<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019ll give you a framework that you can actually start building in, a container. Then the next thing is to think about the sales fundamentals. There\u2019s a lot of models for how sales will work through the AIDA: attention, interest, desire, action. And you can start to map that over the structure you\u2019ve built.<\/p>\n<p>So okay, sales will open at this point. This is focused on action, buying the product. What\u2019s the desire phase look like? What are the key pieces that we need to hit there? Let\u2019s put those locks in place. How are we building their interest, there\u2019s a few blocks we gotta put in there. And how are we just getting their attention at the very beginning? Everyone\u2019s busy, they\u2019ve got their own things to worry about, you\u2019ve got to somehow get in their home, get in the conversations they\u2019re having. What are we doing there?<\/p>\n<p>So you can start to map those blocks out, and that\u2019ll start to give you a shape for what this funnel could look like. There\u2019s lots of room to tweak it at this point. Then you can add another layer over that. That could be an emotional layer. Buying a product is a very emotional process, people don\u2019t usually buy for logical reasons, they buy for an emotional reason and they make up these logical reasons.<\/p>\n<p>So what are they feeling right now at the very beginning? Let\u2019s get very clear on that. Let\u2019s specifically call it out, let\u2019s write it down and make sure that we\u2019re meeting it then. And where do we want them to be at any of those key milestones when sales open? When sales close? You can specifically write those down. I\u2019ll even draw the whole funnel on a board, and write out, \u201cThis is the emotion they should be feeling at this moment.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And you can start to connect the dots between those. Okay, they\u2019re gonna start out disinterested, they\u2019re busy, they\u2019re living their lives. You want to get them curious. Okay, now that they\u2019re curious, let\u2019s get them excited, something\u2019s coming. And then right before the product is gonna be launched, you want them feeling hopeful. Or maybe it\u2019s nervous, depending on what your product is, what your industry is.<\/p>\n<p>So you map all of those out, and you can start to wiggle some of the blocks underneath it as well. So each layer that you add, allows you to get a little more specific about what you need at each step of the way.<\/p>\n<p>Another layer that you can add is interest. Is this fun, is this interesting? You can go through each piece along the way here and say, what\u2019s gonna get someone\u2019s attention? Okay, I want them to feel this way, and then we have to open sales. That\u2019s a mechanical step in the process. What\u2019s unusual and interesting here, it\u2019s like watching a TV show. There\u2019s some sort of hook that\u2019s going to get you to keep going. You can brainstorm ideas for those at each step of the way. And as you do, you want to make sure that each layer you add lines up with the ones underneath it, just as your walls would line up with your foundation.<\/p>\n<p>And keep stacking those layers, and eventually you\u2019ll get to the point where, oh okay, I have this full outline now. I know I need these emails, these five, 10, 12, however many emails you want. And email one needs to do these four things. Email two needs to do these three. That gives you the map. Once you have the map, it\u2019s easy to take: alright, you can write email one, you can write email two, you can write email three, and assign those out, schedule those. That becomes more of a project management process at that point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow, okay. So I love this visual, it\u2019s really helpful. I would love to hear what you\u2019ve noticed in the marketplace, as far as where do we go wrong with our funnel? Especially with our email funnel, where do things fall apart for a lot of online marketers and even copywriters who are working on launches?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> there are so many ways to go wrong.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I mean, you can think about just going back to those layers of the funnel. If any of those layers are missing, that\u2019s one way you can go wrong. Or if they\u2019re misaligned, that\u2019s another way to go wrong.<\/p>\n<p>You can see that, you\u2019ll get into a funnel, and you\u2019ll run into an email like, I was really interested reading what they were doing, and this thing feels so boring. Or, why are they talking about this? Or, they keep beating me over the head.<\/p>\n<p>And the reason is, some of those core fundamental things don\u2019t line up. I mean, I\u2019ve gone through dozens and dozens and dozens of funnels. My team, not to mention all the ones I\u2019ve read, there are a number of common problems I\u2019ve seen. I call these the seven deadly email funnel sins. They pop up again and again. And they\u2019ve gotten to the point where we can call them out by name, someone will submit a funnel outline, like, \u201cOh, no, you\u2019re committing lecture mode,\u201d which is the first funnel sin.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s where you\u2019re just lecturing, you\u2019re nagging somebody to death. You see this in a lot of emails out there where the writer wants you to learn something even though it\u2019s kinda boring, they haven\u2019t gone through the work of making it interesting or entertaining finding that hook. They\u2019re just going to beat you over the head. That\u2019s one of them.<\/p>\n<p>The second email sin I see a lot, I call \u201cstraight to sex,\u201d and this one, you just jump right into selling whatever it is. You\u2019re not gonna sweet-talk, there\u2019s no foreplay here, it\u2019s just, \u201chey! Here\u2019s my offer, you better take it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You know, there\u2019s a time and a place for that. But if you do it over and over and over again, it gets really, really old. People start to tune you out.<\/p>\n<p>Another one I see a lot of is logic attack. And you can see this in certain writers. Certain writers are very logical-minded, very right-brained. They go, \u201cWell, if I just lay out all the reasons why you should join this course or buy this product, or use this service, of course you\u2019ll say yes.\u201d So their emails look like \u201cIf A, then B, then C,\u201d and they\u2019re not gonna convince you at all. Because nobody buys for logical reasons, they buy for emotional reasons.<\/p>\n<p>Another one you see a lot of is magical thinking. And you don\u2019t often see these in actual sent-out funnels. But you see them in people building funnels internally. And that\u2019s where, \u201cI want to sell this product, but I\u2019m not entirely sure how to do it, I\u2019ll send out a fun email, and then we\u2019ll do a case study of a successful student, and then people will be ready to buy.\u201d But what is it about this case study that\u2019s gonna actually get people excited, actually make them want to join? And they don\u2019t have an answer.<\/p>\n<p>They like to say, \u201cOh, we can do an AMA, an Ask Me Anything about this. Everyone loves those.\u201d Okay, but how does that actually get us to the next step, what if nobody shows up to it? What\u2019s the Plan B? You can start to poke holes in it.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things I ask my writers, and I use this framework as well: hey, if you\u2019re gonna put anything down in your emails, if you\u2019re gonna plan this, assume that you have to write it tomorrow, under a very tight turnaround, and if you can\u2019t do that, you should probably not include that in the email. Be very specific that this is doable and this is going to work, and that you can do it.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s room for moon shots, you can still write those on the side, but don\u2019t bet the bank on that.<\/p>\n<p>Another one that I see a lot of is, I like to call Groundhog Day. People start to write and they get an email, and they like the template, they like the format, so they include another one. And then another one. Pretty soon, reading their emails, you\u2019re sending me the same thing over and over and over again, the same message, it\u2019s the same length, you\u2019re using the same type of pictures and the same space. After a while you just tune out, like, \u201cAh, I\u2019ve already read this. There\u2019s nothing new here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You have to really use different types of emails, different structures, different lengths, really vary it up.<\/p>\n<p>The last one is, you can avoid all those things I just mentioned, but sometimes you see emails and you read it, and you think, \u201cMan, this is boring. There\u2019s nothing in here worth reading.\u201d This one, I probably see more than any other one. And it feels like they felt like they had to write an email, and didn\u2019t really have any juice that they actually wanted to share.<\/p>\n<p>The best trick I\u2019ve ever found is, when you\u2019re outlining an email funnel, when you\u2019re writing it, if you\u2019re not super jazzed about reading the final email, if it\u2019s not something that you\u2019d say, \u201cMan, I really want to share this with somebody,\u201d you should probably just delete it, right there. Find something else to do. Because if you\u2019re not excited about it, nobody else is gonna be excited about it. That can be hard to do on deadline, and \u201cMan, this is a funnel, I gotta write 10 other things,\u201d but you can\u2019t trick anybody into being excited about your business or your product. You have to genuinely get them interested.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah. I want to shift gears just a little bit. You guys produce a lot of content in addition to a lot of copy. I know that\u2019s sort of a fuzzy line between the two, there\u2019s some people that think, \u201cCopy that sells is the only true form of copywriting,\u201d but it seems like you guys embrace a wider range of words that represent copywriting, building a relationship from start to finish.<\/p>\n<p>Can you talk about that balance, and how much you think through: when is it appropriate that you\u2019re talking about something in a blog post, versus an email, versus a launch page?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. I love this question, and I\u2019ve had this debate with a number of people on both sides of the spectrum.<\/p>\n<p>I never understood the whole, \u201cDirect response is the only true type of copywriting.\u201d It\u2019s a sort of pure sales mindset. There\u2019s a lot of power in direct response, don\u2019t get me wrong, but a lot of the tools and structures that come with it also really undercut a lot of what it\u2019s trying to do. And you can see that in a lot of direct response businesses, where we\u2019re using the tools, we\u2019re pushing really hard, all the little tricks with scarcity and risk reversals, and extra bonuses on timers and whatnot. It drives a whole lot of extra people into the product, but there\u2019s no trust there, there\u2019s no reputation. So refunds become high and you get a lot of low-value people into the product. Refunds are high, then they gotta push even harder on driving more leads into the system. That means they have to push even harder on the direct response, on the sales. The end result is, you wind up having to sell a lot harder, because there\u2019s no core brand to support you.<\/p>\n<p>If you think about someone who does something totally different, like Apple &#8211; when you walk into an Apple store, you trust that you\u2019re going to get a good product. When they say, \u201cHey, we need to take your phone for a little bit to transfer the data,\u201d you don\u2019t worry about getting your phone back. As opposed to, \u201cHey man, I\u2019m reading this really long sales page, and is this a scam? Is this gonna actually do what I want it to do? If I want a refund, are they actually gonna give me my money back, or is this gonna be a huge, long nightmare?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>A whole lot of sales strategy is about forcing people into getting that trust so that they\u2019re willing to buy. But in forcing people, they\u2019re eroding that trust at the very core foundation. So one of the things that we\u2019re trying to do is to pull back a little bit from some of those direct response tactics. Let\u2019s think about the brand, let\u2019s think about trust. Let\u2019s think about the value that we\u2019re adding. We add value upfront. Not fake value, and \u201cHey, let me tell you a really good story. But first I want to talk about blah blah blah.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Genuinely building that brand and trust, entertaining them so that when it does come time to sell, people are ready to buy. And we see this in a lot of their products. People will come in and write these really long sales pages, and some people won\u2019t even read it. They\u2019ll just go right to the bottom and buy. That\u2019s totally crazy. We\u2019re doing all this work on these sales, and people trust us so much that they don\u2019t even need it, they\u2019re ready to jump in buying right then. It\u2019s power.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019d love to hear, Ryan, just about people also argue about our attention spans and long-form or short-form copy. So I know you have incredibly long sales pages. What have you found from your data that you\u2019ve collected as far as what actually works, have you tested short-form versus long-form? Can you share that with us, just to help us with that argument?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes, yes. I don\u2019t even know who said it, but who reads all this long copy? The buyers read it. We are known for long copy, long sales pages. Some of them are over 50, 60 pages. Not all of them, some of them are actually short.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a couple reasons behind why we do it. We\u2019ve tested the long copy a lot, and it definitely works for us. Two key reasons that we like it are: if you\u2019re on the fence about the value, it takes a little bit of work to read that long copy sales page. You\u2019re gonna put in the effort to do it, and that gives us a better quality of student, that makes life easier for everybody. That means less hassles for our student success team, that means better student results, we get higher quality students, so more of them are being successful. It means lower refunds, because we get fewer tire-kickers who are just coming in and they were never gonna succeed anyway. It\u2019s a good trickle-down effect on everything else in our business.<\/p>\n<p>The other part is that, who reads long copy? The buyers. Let\u2019s put all the information in there, let\u2019s make sure there\u2019s real value in it as well. So you could read a sales page, and if you don\u2019t buy, you still learned something from it. We\u2019re always leaning into that value.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Yeah, the one thing about the pages you guys do at IWT, there\u2019s long copy and then there\u2019s IWT long copy, which breaks all of the screenshot apps that try to grab it all, because they are so long. You guys have it down to a science.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Not quite science. There\u2019s a lot of messy art behind it. there\u2019s a lot we want to share, a lot that we want to give, not just to our students but to the readers, who want to get ready for that job. We\u2019re happy to share it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019d love to shift gears and ask you about up-leveling. So, so many copywriters, especially new ones, they\u2019re hungry and they want to improve fast. So what can they do to improve, have you tested anything that\u2019s worked for your writers or for yourself?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Yes. As the head of the sales and editorial team, finding copywriters, up-leveling copywriters, has been a key piece of my job. And I\u2019ve tried a lot of different things, different levels of success with different options.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things we tried early was, we called it a shadowing program. We used Google Docs, so all the revision history is there if you want to look at everything that happened to a sales page. You could track what were the changes and all that.<\/p>\n<p>So it\u2019s very self-paced. Hey, here\u2019s the pieces that went out, study all the different revisions. That works if you\u2019re super, super gung-ho and you have access to it. But for most writers, they didn\u2019t take the initiative to do it.<\/p>\n<p>We also tried building out SOPs, guidelines, this is exactly how the copy should look, how it should flow, the rules for different types of pieces. And what I found was, the best writers didn\u2019t need the SOPs, they could build them on their own, on the fly. And other people didn\u2019t know how to use them. Those weren\u2019t helpful either. You see this, a lot of copywriters looking for templates and what the rules are, give me the shortcuts. And well, we tested it, and sometimes those aren\u2019t as helpful as you think they\u2019re actually going to be.<\/p>\n<p>Another one we did was a two-month training program for the in-house team, and it was very intensive, I built it around research, on talent, on how masters of different domains train and improve their skills. We had daily exercises in a shared forum, we had large weekly assignments, we had ongoing feedback, we had discussion and all of these things.<\/p>\n<p>It was a ton of fun, and there was almost immediate improvement in the exercises. But what we found was, a lot of those improvements, they didn\u2019t clearly and consistently trickle down into the actual work. So we could sort of work the system to get better at this small, specific skill, but when it came time to, \u201cOkay, now go write a new funnel,\u201d all those weren\u2019t reflected in the core writing.<\/p>\n<p>When I think about up-leveling writers fast, and skill improvements, one of the biggest insights was, the biggest gains aren\u2019t really from building your skill but from building the process around it. And a good example is actually one of my favorite copywriting stories: Gary Bencivenga was writing, wanted to get more competitive. \u201cHow can I stand out? How can I be different?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What he decided to do was to take on fewer clients, fewer projects, and spend more time on the ones that he did take. He was gonna spend twice as much time and write extra long copy, longer than anybody else was doing. And was successful. His pieces were beating other people\u2019s pieces. He was actually doing less work, but doing it better. He had a disproportionate impact.<\/p>\n<p>And other people started to copy that, and then he doubled down and spent even more time, more edits. What\u2019s super fascinating about that was, it wasn\u2019t that Gary Bencivenga had more raw talent, because he\u2019s competing against other investors who were just as talented. But he was using some core copy [inaudible 00:30:13], and really working those. Okay, so what are those copy [inaudible 00:30:18]?<\/p>\n<p>There is the raw talent, there\u2019s a skill. It takes a lot of time to improve. There isn\u2019t really a shortcut to going from, \u201cHey, I just started this three months ago,\u201d to \u201cI\u2019m an A-list copywriter.\u201d That\u2019s the tough news.<\/p>\n<p>But there are other levers that you can pull. One of those is the rounds of revision that you\u2019re using. So Gary Bencivenga in this case, he\u2019s using extra time, he can do more drafting and just write many more drafts than everybody else and that allows him to get higher up that hill.<\/p>\n<p>Another lever is the research: how deeply do you understand the customer and the product? Gary Bencivenga\u2019s spending more time, he can dive deeper into the product to find those unusual, interesting angles, that core drive that\u2019s gonna get somebody to join.<\/p>\n<p>So, what we\u2019ve done is really tweak the process to take advantage of these levers. So for raw talent, we\u2019re gonna focus on top performers, even if you\u2019re a junior copywriter, you want to work with an amazing junior copywriter. But we\u2019re also gonna do the other two, too. So rounds of revision, you\u2019re not necessarily gonna take three months of one person working in isolation doing a lot of drafts. But what we can do is build the process so that you can get feedback on whatever piece that you\u2019re working on, faster.<\/p>\n<p>If you think about a graph mapping the leaps in quality of a piece, there\u2019s this initial leap when we first start working on a piece. You edit for a while, it kinda plateaus off. Maybe you\u2019ll sleep on it and come back the next day, and oh, you have a better idea, there\u2019s another little leap. Then you go away for a weekend and you come back and there\u2019s another leap.<\/p>\n<p>One of the best leaps is showing it to somebody else. \u201cHey, I wrote this sales email, can you look at it?\u201d And they\u2019ll give you some feedback, and that\u2019s an immediate leap.<\/p>\n<p>So what we try to do is build the process to stack those leaps as fast as we can, and minimize those plateaus, where you\u2019re sitting there and not making a lot of progress.<\/p>\n<p>And then I already mentioned the one about research, how we have a world-class in-house product dev team that does so much of the research for us, packages it for us, is there to answer questions.<\/p>\n<p>All of those allow us to really take a copywriter, up-level them fast, up-level the quality of the work pretty fast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Ryan, when we knew you were gonna come on the show, Kira posted in our Facebook group \u201cDoes anybody have any questions?\u201d And somebody asked, Bob Cohn asked, \u201cWhat do you do when the words just don\u2019t come?\u201d Especially when you\u2019ve got to produce so much content, you can\u2019t afford to be blocked. So what do you do to overcome those days?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Ice cream helps.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Ice cream fixes all of the problems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot of tricks that you can use to get over that block. We had a previous interview guest, Abby, she worked with us, I worked with Abby closely. And she had a background originally in journalism before she got into copywriting.<\/p>\n<p>And one of the things they teach you very fast is, you don\u2019t have time for writer\u2019s block. You have to get it done and you learn very fast how to get it done. And I definitely believe that you can build that mindset, with deadlines, with accountability, that hey, you just need to get this done. Even if you\u2019re stuck.<\/p>\n<p>So some of the letters you can use to crack those codes is to shrink the field, is one of them. Hey, you gotta write this sales page, you\u2019re working on the headlines and you\u2019re totally stuck. Alright, how about you take just a small piece of this? Instead of actually writing a headline, which is complicated, let me just write down some ideas. Not that you hold a headline, but just possible things that I could talk about. Sometimes by shrinking that, it\u2019s easier to get the ideas flowing.<\/p>\n<p>Another one I like to use is, hey, if you\u2019re stuck on coming up with one idea, the best thing you can do is write three. Or, if you gotta write a headline, don\u2019t write one, write 10 headlines. And suddenly, it frees you up. It doesn\u2019t have to be perfect, this one thing you\u2019re producing. You can do 10 and you know what, most of those are gonna suck, they\u2019re gonna be terrible. But that\u2019s okay, that\u2019s part of the process. So write down your terrible ones. You don\u2019t have to show them to anybody. The process of putting those out there, not needing to worry about something being perfect, is very, very liberating.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes even just free writing, like you know what, I don\u2019t know where to begin, I\u2019m just gonna get a piece of paper and write. I\u2019m trying to write this headline and I\u2019m stuck on this, I know I want to talk about this benefit, it\u2019s really rambly, it sounds like a horrible diary. But you know what, at the end of the first page, second page, oh, well maybe I could use this. Creativity starts to flow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> That reminds me of Justin Blackmon, who\u2019s in our group as well. He\u2019s doing the 100 Headline Project, where he\u2019s writing 100 headlines every single day for 100 days. But I feel like it\u2019s probably freeing to go through that process where you can just cut loose and not put so much pressure on yourself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Ryan, I\u2019d like to hear from your time, I know you said you spent six years working with Ramit\u2014what is one of the biggest lessons, or just a lesson, that you\u2019ve taken from working with him that you\u2019ll take wherever you go?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> One of the biggest lessons is, Ramit is very good at what he does. He\u2019s driven, he\u2019s always pushing to become better, to take whatever piece that he\u2019s working on and make it better. And you can see that in a lot of the stuff that the company has produced. And the other people on the team, they share that mindset as well. They\u2019re very driven, they want to make it the best, how can we put all these things together?<\/p>\n<p>I actually think it\u2019s an unusual approach. A lot of people that I\u2019ve seen in other companies or freelancers, it\u2019s \u201cHow can I get this done?\u201d Or, with a freelancer who might be working on a project basis, it\u2019s, \u201cI gotta do this fast, because if I have to go in and actually draft, ugh, it\u2019s eating into my hourly rate here. And I want to get that up as high as I can.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s a short-term win and a long-term loss. But having that drive, that big push, to always make it the best, it opens up so many doors.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Ryan, I have one last question for you. And that\u2019s: if you had to start over today, with none of the connections that you\u2019ve got, perhaps not even the skills that you\u2019ve got, what would you do differently and what would you do to get back to where you are?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I think the one thing that I would do differently is network more, network earlier, network harder. It\u2019s only relatively recently that I really started to push on that, and it\u2019s been a really rewarding experience. But in the beginning, I didn\u2019t do any networking at all. I read books, I\u2019m gonna read about the thing, and [inaudible 00:37:29].<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s great, that\u2019s a lot of power and there\u2019s so much more information out there now than there was 10, 12 years ago when I was getting started. But super powerful to connect with people who are doing what you\u2019re doing, or doing something different, or they\u2019re three steps down the road you\u2019re on? That can be truly transformative. I wish I\u2019d started earlier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And where specifically are you networking? Because I want to network where Ryan Johnson is networking.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I think I could use that too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. I\u2019ll just follow you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> I don\u2019t have any networking secrets. It\u2019s, people that I\u2019m interested, I want to meet. I\u2019m very interested in meeting the copy chiefs out there, the editors in chief, the editorial directors, the creative directors, the marketing directors, I want to meet those people who are behind the scenes, the movers and shakers for a lot of these organizations. A lot of them are actually hidden, you don\u2019t know that they\u2019re there. Or maybe it\u2019s just a little name at the bottom of some masthead. But those are the people that I\u2019m trying to reach out to.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s not a secret place where they hang out, or if there is, I don\u2019t know. So if there is, somebody let me know. But yeah, it\u2019s reaching out. It\u2019s saying, \u201cHey, we have this in common, let\u2019s connect,\u201d or, \u201cDo you know anybody?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Awesome. If people want to find you, they want to contact you, where should we send them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> You can reach me at Ryan@IWT.com, and that\u2019s my work email. For a personal shout-out you can reach me at Ryan@RyanWJohnson.com.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Awesome. Thank you, Ryan. This has been really interesting and helpful. It\u2019s helped me look at everything I\u2019m doing, from a different perspective. I should probably slow down and spend more time on my processes. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It\u2019s been great. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ryan:<\/strong> Thanks for having me.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ryan Johnson, Head Copywriter at IWT (short for I Will Teach, Ramit Sethi\u2019s company) steps up to the microphone with Kira and Rob for the 53rd episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[3,71],"class_list":["post-943","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-podcast","tag-ryan-johnson"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #53: The 7 deadly email funnel sins with Ryan Johnson - 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