{"id":969,"date":"2017-10-31T14:44:28","date_gmt":"2017-10-31T07:44:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=969"},"modified":"2018-01-04T10:42:49","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T03:42:49","slug":"paid-search-expert-amy-hebdon","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/paid-search-expert-amy-hebdon\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #55: Paid search for copywriters with Amy Hebdon"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Paid search expert (and copywriter club member) Amy Hebdon joins Kira and Rob for the 55th episode of the podcast to talk about search marketing, the tools and skills you need to do it right, best practices for testing and messaging, and whether copywriters can drive quality leads for their own businesses with paid search. Here\u2019s what we cover:<br \/>\n<\/span>\u2022 \u00a0how Amy went from inexperienced copywriter to web designer to paid search consultant<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0what paid search is and the various places you can participate in it<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why copywriters need to know about paid search, keywords, ads and landing pages<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how writing for search is different from typical ad writing<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0when you should write for Google and when you should write for people (you <em>can<\/em> do both)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why you should work backwards from your landing page before writing your ads<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0why traffic and clicks are a terrible metric in paid search<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0best practices for testing ads so you get better insights, and<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the tools Amy uses to monitor her accounts and ads<\/p>\n<p>We also talked about what copywriters can do to attract clients who understand search (and want to work with a paid search specialist), how copywriters might use paid search to drive traffic to their own sites, and where the opportunities are for paid search today.\u00a0<span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Don\u2019t miss Amy\u2019s straight-forward perspective on the future of paid search and why there needs to be more collaboration than ever in this area in 2018. To hear hear it all, c<\/span>lick\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1659\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-969-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC055.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC055.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC055.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC055.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=969-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC055.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC055.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/paidsearchmagic.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Amy Hebdon, Paid Search Magic<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/twitter.com\/amyppc\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Find Amy on Twitter<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/google.com\/adwords\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">AdWords<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/adsense\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Adsense<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/joanna-wiebe\/\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Joanna Wiebe<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/unbounce.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unbounce<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/leadpages.net\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Leadpages<br \/>\n<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/supermetrics.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Supermetrics<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/duckduckgo.com\">DuckDuckGo<\/a><br \/>\n<\/span><a href=\"https:\/\/www.indeed.com\/\">Indeed<br \/>\n<\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.upwork.com\/\">Upwork<br \/>\n<\/a><\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Rob and I do every week at <em>The Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the Club for episode 55 as we talk with paid search expert Amy Hebdon about search marketing, the tools and skills you need to do it right, best practices for testing and messaging, and whether copywriters can drive quality leads for their own businesses with paid search.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Amy,\u00a0welcome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Hi! Good to be on here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, thanks for hanging out with us today. I think a great place for us to start is with your story and how you got into paid search.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Sure! So, I am one of those people who always wanted to work in advertising. It\u2019s been my dream career, basically, since I was seven, and I majored in marketing communications in school and I spent the next several years temping, trying to find jobs.<\/p>\n<p>At the time, I was living in the Bay area and it was right around the time of the dot com bust, so I wasn\u2019t able to find anyone who wanted to hire a brand new copywriter with no experience. I ended up a few years later&#8230; I got a job in New York as a web designer, so I was going to work every day basically hoping that wasn\u2019t the day that I got fired because really, my web design skills were not that great.<\/p>\n<p>I was not that good at coding and I had all these design challenges that I had no idea how to solve. Looking back, I don\u2019t think they actually would\u2019ve fired me, like I think it was fine for what their clients needed, but it was really stressful for me to not know what I was doing and not really know how to do a good job with that. Working in this little design agency&#8230; it was a really cramped office space and the woman who sat behind me &#8211; there was no space between our chairs.<\/p>\n<p>So, every time she even stood up, she would bump me and it was really uncomfortable. She was doing adwords and digital marketing and one day, she had gone to this conference, about web marketing, I think. And she had come back and management had asked her to give a report on what she had learned and during her presentation, they asked her what click through rate was, and she wasn\u2019t able to explain it. She didn\u2019t know what it was. Which, it\u2019s pretty essential if you\u2019re doing digital marketing to even have a basic understanding of click through rate&#8230; so they fired her immediately after that and they offered me her job.<\/p>\n<p>I was kind of in heaven because I was discovering adwords, which it turned out I really loved, and I was able to move in my chair because there wasn\u2019t someone sitting behind me. I think I would\u2019ve liked anything that got me out of doing web design&#8230; but I really took to paid search and to adwords, just with how much accountability there was.<\/p>\n<p>At the time, Google didn\u2019t even own an analytics tool yet. There was really no good way to test and measure different kinds of optimizations but here was this platform that we could really test everything we wanted and learn what changes we were making that were able to influence the growth of this account and really accomplish what I\u2019m trying to. So, I was really drawn to that and I\u2019ve been really drawn to it ever since. Doing adwords now for 13 years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So Amy, I wanna be sort of dumb, like that person who was fired and get really, really basic on this. Tell us what is paid search, what does it include, what are all of the moving parts of paid search?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>So, paid search has really evolved I would say from those days. Basically, the idea of paid search is it\u2019s a way to show up on the search engines or search engine results pages in a sponsor listing, as opposed to you know, an organic listing or Google just find you.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re paying to participate and show up in the top of the listings. Now, what a search engine is and does has definitely evolved. So, instead of just having google proper that you go to, well, Google owns YouTube, and so YouTube basically is its own search engine as well, so video ads is a way to participate in paid search.<\/p>\n<p>Google owns Gmail, so Gmail sponsored promotions, Gmail ads are another way to participate in paid search. Google offers app ads, they have quite a few apps that you\u2019re able to market on as well as the display network, which is over two million websites that are involved somehow with Google, with adsense, or whatever, that you\u2019re able to run ads on. It really has grown pretty far beyond just the search engine listings and results pages to really help your company get found anywhere on the internet, for the most part.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, let\u2019s say I\u2019m a copywriter who has been doing my thing, has not dived into paid search at all\u2014why is it important? Why do I need to know about it, even if I\u2019m not in a role where I\u2019m an expert? Why is it really important for all copywriters today to know about?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I think that if you\u2019re a copywriter who\u2019s involved in landing pages at all, the overlap between ads and landing pages is really significant. Like, I could create the best campaign in the world, but if it\u2019s going to a 404 page, it\u2019s not going to convert. Or if it\u2019s going to a home page that doesn\u2019t have a compelling offer on it, I\u2019m not going to get those conversions. So, it\u2019s not gonna work in terms of the paid traffic that we\u2019re driving, and on the flipside, being a copywriter or being involved in that page can really affect how everything works together.<\/p>\n<p>So, everything from the page speed load time can affect the quality score of your adwords campaign, which can affect how much you\u2019re paying and essentially how much traffic you\u2019re able to drive to whether the landing page includes the keywords that we\u2019re bidding on. If there\u2019s a high degree of relevancy, the page is going to do better and convert better, but if you\u2019re not aware of what keywords are being used or how people are finding the page, then the page can\u2019t perform as well.<\/p>\n<p>As a copywriter, it really behooves you to understand how the traffic is getting there so you can really speak to those people who are finding you and make sure that they get the best experience possible. Then you\u2019re able to improve conversion rates and frankly, up your pricing and up your game and your performance that you\u2019re able to provide.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So, let\u2019s say that I\u2019m working on a paid campaign, or I\u2019ve been assigned a paid campaign, and I haven\u2019t really done one before. What are some of the basic things that I need to be starting to think through, knowing that I might be working with someone like you who\u2019s going to be managing the ad buy or managing the placements of the different ads. As a copywriter, what do I need to know?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>As a copywriter, I think it\u2019s really important to understand the relationship between the keyword, the ad, and the landing page. I think copywriters don\u2019t always think about this, and if you\u2019re a copywriter that does SEO, this probably doesn\u2019t pertain as much to you, but if you\u2019re not SEO, and you\u2019re used to being able to go in and write a headline that\u2019s just designed to capture attention, the importance of including a keyword in that headline and making sure it\u2019s really relevant to the keyword that we\u2019re bidding on for the campaign\u2014it\u2019s gonna make a big difference.<\/p>\n<p>You can\u2019t just have a headline that says, they laughed and sat down at the piano, it has to really speak to the query that had someone go to a search engine in the first place and ask a question, then find an ad that looks like it\u2019s going to answer that, and then get on a page that matches that expectation set by the ad. So, being able to have a certain degree of transparency into what are the keywords and what are the search terms that are involved in this is really going to help you better understand the intent of the page and the purpose of the page and how to craft it in a way that\u2019s going to help it convert better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So I imagine you\u2019ve worked with your experience &#8211; I think you mentioned 13 years &#8211; working with multiple copywriters &#8211; what are some of the mistakes you\u2019ve seen copywriters make repeatedly? Maybe in ads, messaging, those landing pages? You mentioned possibly a 404 page. What are some of the big mistakes we need to be aware of with the copy that we\u2019re working on from your perspective?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>I would say that one of the challenges to kind of get used to &#8211; and this goes for anyone who is starting in paid search, whether you\u2019re a copywriter or not &#8211; people\u2019s instinct is to write copy with kind of the AIDA mentality, where I need to capture someone\u2019s attention. They\u2019re thinking billboards and \u201cwhat can I do to make someone stop in their tracks\u201d and that\u2019s really NOT how the ad side of paid search works at all. If you\u2019re typing your problem into google, you\u2019re not looking for an ad &#8211; you\u2019re going to skip right by anything that feels like an ad. You want something that feels native. It feels like an answer to your question.<\/p>\n<p>Seeing those same keywords that are really speaking bare bones &#8211; you\u2019re looking for a car wash, come over to our car wash. Getting really specific and using that keyword and giving back to that person &#8211; repeating back to them &#8211; what they were looking for is going to be a lot more effective than trying to spend too much time looking into the emotional reasons behind what someone\u2019s looking for without acknowledging their actual question. I see that happen a lot and it\u2019s kind of funny because copywriters will come in and say, Oh, paid search, they don\u2019t know how to write an ad. Everything\u2019s boring. Everything\u2019s the same. I\u2019m gonna be different and show them how it\u2019s done and I\u2019ve never seen that be an ad that is relevant to what someone\u2019s specifically looking for. I just haven\u2019t seen that happen.<\/p>\n<p>There are occasions where you could potentially get a higher click through rate by doing some kind of a click baby ad that can capture people\u2019s attention, but on the other side of things, you\u2019ve just paid for that click whereas you wouldn\u2019t have otherwise, and if it doesn\u2019t exaclty match what someone is ultimately looking for, it\u2019s just a curiosity click, you just wasted budget. It\u2019s not like an email where you just send it, and if someone clicks through that\u2019s gravy &#8211; you\u2019re paying every time someone clicks so you want to be cautious and make sure that the ad really matches that intent of someone who is going to convert on that following page. And I think that ends up being something that can take people a while to get used to if they aren\u2019t used to attention meaning straight-forward solution to what someone typed in.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Interesting. Amy, you mentioned things like including keywords and headlines that are in ads and that kind of a thing, but we often hear advice that we shouldn\u2019t be writing for Google &#8211; we should be writing for people. Does that only apply to things like blog posts and maybe landing pages or does that also apply to ads and is there a conflict there? How do you resolve it, if so?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>That\u2019s an interesting question. I think for SEO, that certainly holds up. Either way, you want to be writing for people, but if I\u2019m typing something in, I want to see that result in the listing. I want to know that that\u2019s what you\u2019re offering. So, writing for me means that you understand what I just asked for and you\u2019re giving it to me. With Google ads, we have very small spaces.<\/p>\n<p>Last year, it kind of opened up to something called expanded ads, but prior to that, for more than a decade, we have 25 characters for the headline and a total of 70 for the description, which is less than a tweet. It\u2019s really not a lot of space. We have a little more space now with the double headline and an expanded description, but it still ends up being 140 characters, which isn\u2019t much room to play with. Making sure you\u2019re covering the basics: what are you looking for, I\u2019m going to show you I understand what it is, I\u2019m going to show you I have an answer to your problem&#8230; that\u2019s about as much room as you get.<\/p>\n<p>So&#8230; you don\u2019t have a chance to be really clever or to say anything other than \u201cHere\u2019s the benefit of clicking on this ad\u201d and then getting them over to the landing page. I think it\u2019s really important &#8211; there\u2019s this adage, \u201cA confused minds says no,\u201d and nowhere is that more true than on the search engine results page. I have a problem and I\u2019m looking for something, if I don\u2019t know what you do, I\u2019m not going to click on it, I\u2019m going to keep on looking for something that does speak to my needs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So, if I need a plumber because I\u2019ve got a clogged sink, I don\u2019t want to spend any time with things like, \u201cFounded in 1974\u201d or \u201cI\u2019ve been serving the Denver area for however long\u201d or \u201cI\u2019m certified by the US Plumbers Association\u201d &#8211; I don\u2019t want to waste any time on that. I want to see something like, \u201cI fix clogged sinks\u201d.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Right! So let\u2019s get right to the problem. Say, \u201cI fixed clogged sinks\u201d &#8211; \u201cI\u2019m a plumber that fixed your clogged sinks\u201d as opposed to &#8211; and this is where I see people go wrong so I\u2019ll mention it&#8230; \u201cAre you tired of not being able to have clean dishes because&#8230;\u201d starting out with that emotional connection. What\u2019s the problem underneath the problem? You don\u2019t really have room to do that, you need to get right to the point. \u201cWe\u2019re going to clean your sink.\u201d \u201cWe are plumbers who can help with that.\u201d Other things you mentioned that might help build credibility &#8211; those can still have a place in the ad because once I understand that you\u2019re a plumber, what will make me choose you over someone else? So that can belong in the description or it can belong in the ad extensions, which are those different little snippets that you see that are underneath an ad. Those parts that are really long.<\/p>\n<p>There are different kinds of ad extensions that gives you room to say different things like, \u201cSince 1974\u201d or \u201cServing the Denver area\u201d or different things that are going to help you understand this is important to me, it\u2019s near me, it\u2019s credible. Your headline space, though, is going to be focused on the plumbing aspect of what you do and getting that sink unclogged.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>So, it sounds so basic but I just want to repeat it. You\u2019re basically saying, the ad needs to have the correct keyword so that you are answering that question that someone is asking in Google, and then when you jump over to the landing page, you need to make sure you\u2019re not getting too fancy and that you\u2019re still speaking to that same question. You know, when you jump over to the landing page.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yeah! Exactly. You say that it sounds basic, and I think that\u2019s right &#8211; it is really basic. It genuinely surprises me how much people manage to screw this up. Because it seems like the most obvious thing that\u2019s hard to not do well. So when I first started, I was like this is really easy to do.<\/p>\n<p>Anyone can do paid search, because it\u2019s just know what your keywords are, include them in the ad, make sure the ad describes the landing page, have a good offer. That\u2019s really all there is to it. But people overthink and underthink it all the time, so regularly I\u2019m going to these huge accounts that have just completely messed it up and missed the mark. You\u2019d be really surprised at how rarely that\u2019s actually applied.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019ve messed it up too! And I think part of the challenge is that multiple people are managing different parts of a project, so where a copywriter might come in and write the landing page, they may not even be aware of what those ads actually look like or are saying. There\u2019s just a bigger problem &#8211; so I\u2019m interested in hearing how you overcome that and specifically, what does your process look like when you\u2019re working with a client, just to give us some context!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s really important to honestly start with the landing page. You want to start with the offer &#8211; what is someone going to get? What is the client offering? What are their business goals? Why do they want to pay to send traffic here in the first place? Sometimes, clients aren\u2019t thinking about that path between keyword and landing page, they\u2019re just saying we want to buy these keywords and they don\u2019t even realize where they\u2019re sending people.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s how we end up with a home page. Using a contact us page as a lead gen form, because they think that\u2019s the way for them to capture information but they aren\u2019t at all thinking about that process of what someone\u2019s going to do, why they would take the time to fill out that lead form.<\/p>\n<p>So, starting with what\u2019s your business goal, what\u2019s the best offer that\u2019s going to help you accomplish your business goal, making that the call to action, making that what someone gets from the page, and then working backwards. One thing that I think a lot of copywriters have an advantage of that I don\u2019t, is if you\u2019re hired to write a landing page, you usually have some sort of budget to interview someone or do some sort of research &#8211; data mining &#8211; to find out what people\u2019s real needs are. I don\u2019t get a budget like that.<\/p>\n<p>So basically, all I can do is take what\u2019s on the landing page and make a small ad from that. Because if it\u2019s not on the landing page, there\u2019s no point in me saying it in the ad. If I were going to say, \u201cI\u2019m a plumber since 1974,\u201d and you get to the page and there\u2019s no evidence that I\u2019ve been doing this for any amount of time, that\u2019s ruining the trust that I just tried to build. If it\u2019s not on the landing page, it ends up not being true to the consumer\/prospect. They can\u2019t find evidence of it anywhere. So making sure you\u2019ve got that landing page that really addresses everything that needs to be addressed, then I can create a quick ad that almost acts like a teaser, kind of a trailer for the movie.<\/p>\n<p>I can test some different messages and play with it, but I have that ad and the keywords that are gonna go along with it, so working backwards makes a lot more sense than spending a ton of time researching keywords to drive to a page that doesn\u2019t even address those issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> That\u2019s really interesting because it seems to me that a lot of clients work forwards. They start with the ad, then they think where is this going to point, which is how you get with the homepage as often being the landing page or if they\u2019re smarter, they\u2019re looking to have a specific sales page created but it\u2019s very rare that it\u2019s like let\u2019s start with the offer, let\u2019s start with the landing page, or the sales page and back up, go the other way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yeah, I would say it currently is pretty rare that people are thinking about that. It\u2019s in their best interest to, and I always try to encourage my clients to, like, let\u2019s start with what you\u2019re trying to accomplish and work backwards from there, but a lot of times to be honest, clients aren\u2019t expecting that so they\u2019re not ready to think that way. They\u2019ll say, well, this is what we have. These are our landing pages.<\/p>\n<p>Which is when a solution like Leadpages or UnBounce can really come in handy. If I\u2019m working with someone who can work with Unbounce, I can say hey you know what? I just found this need &#8211; we have all these keywords &#8211; and I don\u2019t have the right page to drive them to &#8211; can you build out a page that supports that? And then we\u2019re able to solve that problem really quickly and still make sure we\u2019re getting a high conversion rate on the terms that are important for them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Sounds like a lot of teamwork.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yes! And I would say more so than usually exists. There\u2019s a need to get more collaborative than we tend to be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So, earlier, you mentioned clickbait and I\u2019m trying to think through this: a lot of times, I think clients look at paid search and think okay, the metric here is clicks. That\u2019s what I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re probably measured on most of the time, but I could be wrong about that. If clickbait works, why would you say that we should avoid it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question. I think people measure what they know. What is the appropriate KPI or measurement of success for paid search? In my mind it\u2019s business growth. It\u2019s figuring out the purpose of paying for this whole operation. Of putting your best offer in front of people who are most likely to take action. The purpose is to accomplish more of something &#8211; more conversions, more sales, or more clients. And so, when you\u2019re paying for that, that\u2019s what we\u2019re measuring. We\u2019re looking at how many leads were we able to get from this? Or what\u2019s the revenue from it? What\u2019s the ROI? What\u2019s the cost per new acquisition?<\/p>\n<p>We\u2019re starting with a bigger metric like that. There certainly are still a lot of agencies and paid search practitioners that are just measuring things in clicks. I took over a client a few months ago where their previous agency had given them a report and they were like, Hey, this keyword is your best keyword because it drove 22,000 clicks. But, it made no sales, so I would not qualify 22,000 clicks on something that didn\u2019t make any sales as a win. I wouldn\u2019t categorize it that way. But again, they didn\u2019t know what questions to ask so they\u2019re just thinking oh, this is great! Because they think traffic equals sales eventually. I think people just have this idea of the funnel, like, well, you have to get traffic and then you have to convert it into interest, and then eventually it would be more sales, so if I want more sales, I have to get more traffic! But there\u2019s good traffic and there\u2019s bad traffic.<\/p>\n<p>Good traffic will convert eventually and bad traffic never will. They\u2019re just going to bounce and it was a waste of your money. So I think there\u2019s a real responsibility of anyone doing paid search to make sure that we\u2019re driving the right kind of traffic that\u2019s likely to convert at some point, and not just driving clicks and hey, look how many clicks I got and look what my clickthrough rate is! If it never results in any meaningful business growth for the company.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Kira, I think we should name this episode \u201cAmy\u2019s One Weird Trick for Driving the Right Kind of Traffic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> (laughs) So, Amy, what are some best practices for testing ads and messaging to get better insights?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> No matter what, the ads should really reflect the landing page. I know at this point, I\u2019m saying what I\u2019ve already said before, but I want to make sure that I\u2019m consistent and on-brand with that so that it doesn\u2019t sound like I\u2019m just throwing out all these random tips that contradict with each other. Make sure that you have a strong call to action on your page and that that\u2019s reflected in the ad. From there, to really test the performance of the ad copy, there are a couple things you need to keep in mind.<\/p>\n<p>One is that you can set the rotation of the ads. You can set it to either be optimized for conversion or I guess, that\u2019s going away, so it\u2019s going to be called the Optimized, or you can do the even rotation. And if you\u2019re going to test messaging, you want to make sure you have an even rotation so that it\u2019s more controlled. Your different ad variations each get a chance to play and participate in the auctions. I think it\u2019s really important when you\u2019re testing messaging and coming up with different messages to test, to focus on something that\u2019s going to result in a learning.<\/p>\n<p>You can learn something about your audience &#8211; like oh! They value price over prestige. Or having something that\u2019s fast acting works better for them than having this on-going benefit. What I see too often is that people are testing really meaningless things like \u201cWhat happens if I capitalize this word as opposed to leaving everything lowercased\u201d or just testing one word inside the description that no one\u2019s really paying attention to anyway.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s gonna be some natural variants there, but you can learn a lot when you have two ads that are significantly different that reveals to you more about what your audience really needs and you can actually take that learning, apply it to the landing page. Maybe price isn\u2019t nearly as important as we thought it was and we were leading with price, so let\u2019s reframe the landing page a little bit so it reflects more of what our customers are actually looking for and are willing to convert on. I think that makes for some really good message testing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So Amy, earlier, you mentioned a couple of tools for landing pages: Leadpages and Unbounce. What are the tools you use to manage paid search campaigns and what tools should a copywriter who\u2019s working with a client be aware of and be exposed to? They may not necessarily be in, say, an adwords tool, but maybe there are other things they need to be doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> So I\u2019m not much of a tools girl to be honest and I feel like this really disappoints people because there is so much data and science behind what\u2019s going to make something work, so there\u2019s this real desire to basically get everything kind of AI and machine-learning about it that we possibly can, but outside of using the actual engines like adwords interface or adwords editor, I end up doing a lot that\u2019s in excel or supermetrics.<\/p>\n<p>Supermetrics is a tool that can grab data from different sources and put it together, either in sheets or data studio or excel, and that\u2019s going to help me monitor pacing and budget and how my accounts are doing, which means I don\u2019t have to rely on a bid management platform that I used to have to use and I\u2019d have to pay a certain percentage of spend just to be able to look at adwords performance and bing performance at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I can do that automatically and I tend to not like to use bid management tools because I have never worked on an account where it\u2019s actually been a lift for me. Usually it\u2019s just we\u2019re paying more and we\u2019re not getting any real value from it. Sometimes, I\u2019m sure they definitely help the people who are using them, but that just hasn\u2019t been my experience.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019m really curious to hear about how&#8230; okay, let\u2019s say I\u2019m interested and I want to get more into this space, and I want to attract clients who will hire me to work with someone like you. So, how can I improve my process as a copywriter so that it is more effective, big picture, and then also, process-wise it\u2019ll also sell better on my sales page because it will speak to the client and what they need as far as paid traffic and a copywriter who understands it and can write a great landing page. So what can I do to up my game so I\u2019m attracting better clients in this space?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I need to think about that for a minute&#8230; (laughs)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> (laughs) I\u2019m basically asking you how I can make my sales page better to get better clients. So, yeah no pressure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Are you saying, to get better clients using paid search or that you want attract a client who\u2019s using paid search?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yes! I want to attract a client who is using paid search and, let\u2019s say they\u2019ve already hired you, right? And they\u2019re looking for the copywriters who are speaking the same language and understand and even may be new to this space, but have a process that will feed into what actually works as far as in an ad campaign and in a funnel.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to reveal something&#8230; this is an area that I haven\u2019t figured out yet, Kira. I\u2019m trying to figure it out. Because I\u2019m on the opposite side of that. I want to work with really good copywriters &#8211; I don\u2019t want to just go to these bad landing pages that someone built who had no idea how to set up a landing page or just going to a page on the site; I want to be able to offer that CRO or that copywriting side for landing pages is really important and having paid search traffic that\u2019s driving the right traffic to that page&#8230; those need to go together and those tend to not go together. So I don\u2019t have a whole lot of clients who are like, alright, we\u2019ve found you- we just need a copywriter now.<\/p>\n<p>They often think that they don\u2019t need a copywriter &#8211; that these pages are fine. For me to be able to convince them like, no you actually need to invest in copywriting &#8211; that can be a big upsell because they weren\u2019t really aware of it. And I would imagine that the opposite is true for you, that if they\u2019ve hired you on as a copywriter they\u2019re not like oh, we have to make sure we have a paid search person who really gets it and isn\u2019t just wasting our budget. Because I\u2019ll go in and audit clients all the time and it\u2019s like, well, you\u2019ve got a lot of traffic, but the point of paid search isn\u2019t just to drive traffic. It\u2019s not just a paid version of how can we get the most traffic possible? It\u2019s really, \u201cHow do we get the right clients?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that the client who is ready to invest in everything at once and say I need a landing page person and a paid search person to work together&#8230; I haven\u2019t seen that person really exist in a way that I wish that they did. But it\u2019s something that I\u2019m trying to figure out. How can I better partner with people who can get those results for their clients? And I don\u2019t know the answer yet.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>That\u2019s good to hear and I appreciate that because I\u2019m just thinking, I would love to work on a landing page project with someone like you where we can both speak the same language&#8230; that would be a successful project, but how often is that actually happening? So maybe the key is for the paid search person to find the copywriters that understand and speak the same language to partner almost, and then bring each other into these projects and pitch it to the clients so that they know it\u2019s like, a package deal! Maybe that\u2019s the direction we need to go.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yeah, I do think that there\u2019s an opportunity like that for more collaboration. I\u2019ve worked with Joanna Weave on projects where she\u2019s been able to write the copy for the pages but I can come in and say you know what, let\u2019s not waste our time with that one because there\u2019s no search volume for it at all, so let\u2019s not test that one out&#8230;. let\u2019s try this other one. Here\u2019s this opportunity. When you\u2019re working with someone who gets it, it\u2019s really easy. But yeah, it\u2019s about finding that opportunity to be able to move forward with that that I would say is a little more tough. I think it needs to be more common than it is!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So, one of the biggest problems that we see copywriters in the Copywriter Club struggling with is finding new clients. If I\u2019m listening to this, I might think \u201cMaybe I could use paid search to start to drive some clients to my own page!\u201d If I wanted to do that, Amy, what are some of the things I need to be thinking through to make sure that I do it right? And then, secondly, what is a realistic budget? Could I drive good clients to my page for $50 per conversion? Or is it $500? Without saying \u201cit depends\u201d, is there an answer to that question?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>(laughs) Well, I think it\u2019s worth saying that almost every answer to a paid search question is \u201cit depends\u201d. So, it\u2019s really frustrating because if you ever ask a paid search question, the answer is, \u201cWell, it depends.\u201d Yeah, of course it depends, like let\u2019s think through the question, let\u2019s get an answer that actually is going to be useful. I think something that is really important &#8211; if you\u2019re going to be going into this yourself, there is a fundamental difference between spending your own money and spending a client\u2019s money.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s hard to understand, so if I say to a client, Hey, we\u2019re going to be learning from this budget, and they\u2019re like, yeah, okay, I totally get it and I\u2019m totally invested in the idea of testing and learning, I\u2019m on board, and then they see that they spent $75 or even a couple hundred dollars and they don\u2019t have a lead yet, they get sick to their stomach and they turn it off. It\u2019s so easy to say yeah, I\u2019m an advocate of testing, but when it\u2019s your own money, and you\u2019re not seeing immediate results, it is so difficult. Without exception, everyone that I\u2019ve ever seen who has committed to spending their own money on a project, they hate it. There\u2019s something really visceral about it.<\/p>\n<p>At best, just acknowledge that that will happen. If you\u2019re going to commit money to it, be committed. Otherwise, you\u2019re going to go in and spend all this time setting it up, and shut it down when it\u2019s spent $200 and you didn\u2019t see any results from it. There is definitely a learning curve. You have to have a certain amount of data before you can even start making any sort of decision about where to go with it.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s my first recommendation. Just be willing to either feel sick about it or to just say \u201cthat\u2019s not for me,\u201d but there\u2019s going to be that process and it\u2019s going to feel very very difficult when it\u2019s your own money. From there, I think another area that\u2019s important to understand that\u2019s easily misunderstood is who you\u2019re competition is. We assume that our competition is other people or practitioners or service providers that over the same thing we offer. And, in terms of the adwords auction, that\u2019s not true. Our competition is anyone who appears in the same listing that we do. That means, I sell cupcake decorations, my competition is Amazon.<\/p>\n<p>Even if my competition is NOT Amazon, like if I was filling out my competitive landscape I would never list Amazon as a direct competitor, but it becomes a competitor in the auction and that\u2019s really important to understand. Amazon\u2019s capacity to spend money to acquire clients is far greater than mine.<\/p>\n<p>And for copywriters, you\u2019re gonna be facing the same sort of thing. Your competition isn\u2019t just fellow copywriters &#8211; it\u2019s the marketplaces that are showing up where someone who doesn\u2019t know how much a copywriting project should cost is trying to find that out and they\u2019re seeing Indeed or frankly, Upwork, or any markup place, where someone could go in and then scan through hundreds of profiles and choose one they want so it\u2019s really easy for the marketplace to make back their investment. Whereas, with you, the only way for you to make back your investment is for someone to specifically choose you. So, it can be more of a challenge when there\u2019s just one specific product when you\u2019re competing against a marketplace. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It does make sense. Are there things that you could do to stand out then, using paid search? Is it something like, \u201cI need to niche down\u201d or \u201cI need to choose a product or develop a product that\u2019s very specific\u201d? Would those kinds of things help or are we still looking at the same kind of problem?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yeah, well, I mean those sorts of things help, and the more specificity you can get, the better it is. What you\u2019ll find is that when you\u2019re at the point where you\u2019re bidding on the keyword Rob Marsh, you\u2019ll do very very well, right? So, that\u2019s something I\u2019ve seen come up a lot lately, like this did not use to be the case where you could just easily bid on someone else\u2019s brand name and actually capture their traffic because of space issues and because of how the algorithm worked.<\/p>\n<p>If Kira comes in and says I want to bid on Rob Marsh, okay, but you\u2019re Kira, so there\u2019s really very little relevance there and so we\u2019re not going to show you very much and you\u2019re going to have to pay this crazy amount-<\/p>\n<h1>Kira: I will pay that crazy rate!<\/h1>\n<h1>Rob: Take that, Kira!<\/h1>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> No, but adwords recently changed their algorithm. This is important to know. So now Kira can write an ad that says, \u201cAre you looking for Rob Marsh? Well you shouldn\u2019t cuz he sucks.\u201d And then have her ad and then someone just used Rob Marsh and clicks on it and goes to her page and that\u2019s it! It\u2019s so weird because it\u2019s really hyper-aggressive. There are really hyper-aggressive ads now that didn\u2019t used to exist &#8211; I mean, honestly, six months ago I never saw anything like this.<\/p>\n<p>And if there was something, it got disapproved right away. But this is really how the game is being played right now, because of it extra space in that change and the algorithm. So it\u2019s something to keep in mind, right? People really need to protect their own brand because consumers are very easily misled which again, never was the case before.<\/p>\n<h1>Kira: Wow, playing dirty!<\/h1>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> Yeah, it gets really dirty. It\u2019s nuts how different it is. But, assuming that people are really interested in what Rob has to offer, and they get to Kira\u2019s page, they\u2019ll be like, nope, I was looking for Rob and they\u2019ll go back.<\/p>\n<p>Owning your own brand and getting as close to that as you can and things that are really gonna describe you, you\u2019re going to have a lower cost per acquisition on those terms than you do like if you\u2019re just bidding on \u201ccopywriter\u201d. I think that\u2019s pretty obvious. The thing is, people don\u2019t like to spend money on their own brand. They think, well, I could\u2019ve gotten that anyway because if someone really wanted to work with me, they could\u2019ve just seen my listing in the organic results &#8211; I didn\u2019t have to pay for it. So there\u2019s always that back and forth that you\u2019re going to go through and it\u2019s a natural process to kind of have those questions.<\/p>\n<p>But, if you do want to be successful at paid search, you are sometimes gonna cannibalize the clicks you could\u2019ve gotten for free, but you are also going to get additional clicks so it\u2019s something called the \u201cHalo Effect\u201d basically, that if you\u2019re on the page with your paid ad and your organic listing combines to really say, Hey, this person can really dominate this space and knows what\u2019s up, they\u2019re more likely to click one or the other and it does help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Wow, okay. You\u2019re giving us a lot to think about as far as strategies for world domination! (laughs) So, what is the future of your space and paid search and as far as what is relevant to copywriters, especially? What should we know about what\u2019s coming in paid search?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>What\u2019s coming in paid search is it\u2019s becoming keywordless, which is really interesting, because it has historically been so based on keywords. But, Google is getting really really good at implied intent, which means that if I\u2019m looking for a restaurant and it\u2019s 8 o\u2019clock in the morning in Seattle, Google knows how to serve me ads and local listings that are gonna say \u201cSeattle Breakfast\u201d &#8211; I don\u2019t have to describe, by the way, I\u2019m in Seattle and it\u2019s this time. It\u2019s learning about that. It\u2019s learning about what searches or queries are commercial.<\/p>\n<p>Example: \u201cWho won the Superbowl?\u201d That\u2019s something that a lot of people want to pay money to show up for because oh, someone who is interested in the Superbowl is going to be interested in my Superbowl product. Well, Google has decided that no, someone just wants that answer, so they\u2019re gonna give them an answer right away and ignore the fact that I\u2019m trying to bid on it and not even show my ad because they don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to be relevant to that search.<\/p>\n<p>So, I mean, it\u2019s kind of a mixed bag, like, it\u2019s ultimately a better user experience, but if I\u2019m really trying to reach a certain audience then I have fewer tools to do that in some cases because they are paying a lot more attention to commercial intent. But in terms of copywriting and how it all works together, I think that better landing pages &#8211; right now, we\u2019re so weirdly in the infancy of like, we can have ads that go to horrible pages. I have a client who literally, their ads go to a contact us page and we\u2019re getting $5 leads. And the reason is, because, you know, I\u2019ll try to find one example of a competitor that\u2019s doing it better than they are and say hey look, you should be like these other guys. They\u2019re killing it! There isn\u2019t one. Everyone is equally horrible.<\/p>\n<p>So, if you\u2019re actually a consumer looking for this, all of your options are horrible and so it\u2019s like well, they can get away with it for as long as they can, but as soon as that first player comes into market and has a better experience, it\u2019s gonna change the game for the rest of this particular industry. And so I think being able to be there, as that progresses, like, everyone is eventually going to have to up their game to be able to participate and get the leads that they want in response to that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Wait, so, can you share what industry this is? Because this seems like a big opportunity for copywriters.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> (laughs) It\u2019s the food service industry.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Ohhhh, okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>It\u2019s really just like, \u201cHey, we offer quality products! Work with us!\u201d You know? And that\u2019s really all that it says. There\u2019s nothing psychographic; there\u2019s nothing interesting about it at all. We can\u2019t get them to say anything that\u2019s really meaningful for them, so yeah. If you\u2019re the first one who can come in and do that, you\u2019re going to change everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So, Amy, so far we\u2019ve really been focused on Google, but there are a lot of search interfaces&#8230; Facebook, even Amazon, I think, has some search ability; there are search opportunities for people. Bing, Duck Duck Go, like, should we mostly just focus on Google because they are a big player? Or are there opportunities in these other search engines and platforms for us to be doing search and attracting the right clients?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>Well, Google definitely has the most volume, so if you want to put in your effort to set up your settings and targeting and keywords, you\u2019re going to get the most instant results from Google. There\u2019s just more volume to be had there. Both Google and Bing, who are the two big search engine proper players, have the option of participating on the search partner networks as well, so if you\u2019re using Google, you can also be opted into showing up on Ask.com or sometimes it\u2019s Amazon.com &#8211; like, they are not transparent at all about their list but there are many other partners that you could potentially show up on in addition to Google that\u2019s going to syndicate out to a bunch of other engines that aren\u2019t Google. Bing is the same way. Bing has Yahoo traffic, Bing has Duck Duck Go; if you wanted to advertise on Duck Duck Go, you\u2019re using Bing. That\u2019s the only way to advertise for them.<\/p>\n<p>So they also have another sort of syndication, although for them, it\u2019s much more limited as well. Being on Google and Bing is really gonna, for the most part, cover your bases as far as search engine proper. Anything Facebook, LinkedIn&#8230; we\u2019re getting more into paid social and is effectively different than search engine marketing or paid search, but it also acts the same, in that they\u2019re both pay-per-click model. So PPC used to be synonymous with SEM or paid search, PPC now, in a lot of people\u2019s minds, means Facebook and they don\u2019t even realize paid search might be part of that equation. Ultimately, that\u2019s getting into a different set of tools and a different approach for how you would market to someone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So, Amy, are there any other best practices or things that you know, we really should have that we haven\u2019t talked about or questions we should\u2019ve asked you that you\u2019re just like, wow, people really need to know this about paid search?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>Yeah, one thing I think is important to know if you\u2019re involved in paid search at all is the difference between the keyword and a search term, because those can sound synonymous and they can effectively behave synonymously but they\u2019re very different things. A keyword is what you bid on, and a search term is what someone is actually typing into Google.<\/p>\n<p>So, if you\u2019re running PPC or if you even work with PPC, you need to understand the traffic that\u2019s going to your website. Looking at the search terms is really gonna give you a lot more details than the keywords are. What you\u2019ll also find\u2014this is another important thing\u2014is that Google is always trying to increase its market share. Google is responsible, as a publicly traded company, to shareholders to be increasing its revenues year after year after year. And the way that they\u2019re able to do that so aggressively is that most of its revenue is coming from the adwords platform. So, what they\u2019re doing is they\u2019re kind of changing, subtly, the way that the adwords auction works.<\/p>\n<p>One way to do that is to drive up the auction or cost of bids &#8211; that\u2019s part of it; the other is to really expand their reach. Expanding their reach and the display network, expanding the reach of even the search network. So, whereas a few years ago, if I said \u201cI want to target United States but I\u2019m willing to reach people who are in a different country if they specifically are looking for something that suggests that they are really relevant\u201d, I could do that pretty easily. Now, if I say \u201cI\u2019m willing to reach anyone out of the United States\u201d, a lot of my traffic is gonna come from there.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve gotten really generous in how they define interest from a different area so I want to be really buttoned up in my settings. And then also, the same thing applies to keywords. I used to be able to just broadly search for something that\u2019s related, and Google\u2019s only gonna serve up ads against queries or search terms that are really relevant to what my keyword was, now I have to do a lot to try to get really specific, like saying \u201cI\u2019m only willing to bid on this exact match term\u201d or there are different ways to modify the keyword&#8230; but if I\u2019m not taking those precautions, I see a lot of, \u201cWell, my keywords were great\u201d but then I look at their search terms and like, 40% of their search terms are completely unrelated to what their keywords are because they weren\u2019t being careful about it. So, I\u2019d say that\u2019s another thing to keep in mind: always check with what Adwords is doing with the settings that you\u2019re giving them, because they are going to try to find ways to really expand your reach. It may be a lot further than what you wanted, so being cautious about that is going to prevent a lot of wasted clicks, wasted spend, wasted traffic, going forward.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I have one last question for you before we wrap, Amy. So, you\u2019re in our space &#8211; you\u2019ve worked with copywriters, you\u2019ve worked with Joanna, you\u2019re coming at it from a different angle &#8230; what advice would you give to copywriters, especially new copywriters, who are just starting out and building their businesses, that could help them? And it doesn\u2019t have to be related to paid search; it could just be an area where you see a lot of opportunity or a big weakness&#8230; what advice would you give to that new copywriter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I think that copywriting really benefits from understanding business goals. I think that that a lot of times, that gets missed. Copywriting can cover a lot of different ground and some people are very, very conversion-focused and looking at the metrics, and some people are kind of more wordsmithy and like to play with words. I think there\u2019s a huge demand for people who understand how what they do ties back to business growth, and there\u2019s less and less of a demand for people who just like to polish up words and make them sound pretty.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s really worth learning the conversion aspect of copywriting and getting into that if you really want to have a career in this. I think it\u2019s another one of those areas that, the more we move toward the future, the future is, it\u2019s nice to be able to write something that sounds nice, but it\u2019s more important to be able to write something that you can prove. I understand your audience, this is speaking to them, and this is helping them solve a problem and then sell; helping them get focused on that conversion. I think we\u2019re going to see more and more of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Awesome. Amy, I know you\u2019re in the Facebook group; in fact, this episode came out of the fact that there some questions around PPC that you jumped in and answered in the group at one point. But if people want to connect with you or learn more about PPC, have questions for you that we aren\u2019t smart enough to ask, where would they find you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy: <\/strong>You can find me at paidsearchmagic.com or my Twitter handle is @amyppc. You can find me there. Either one of those areas and I\u2019m always happy to talk and answer questions. I\u2019m really, honestly, looking into further develop my relationship with copywriters, particularly conversion copywriters, for basically the same reason Kira was just mentioning: I think there\u2019s so much opportunity there and we\u2019re not there yet, but to an extent we can collaborate and partner and put together packages. We can really improve results for our clients and it\u2019s an exponential win! It\u2019s more than just my P\u2019s and your P\u2019s, we\u2019re really going to move the needle on that business when we have both practictioners really understanding how it works so I think there\u2019s a real opportunity there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> I totally agree. We really appreciate you coming on the show. This has been awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Amy:<\/strong> I\u2019m so happy to be here. thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Thank you!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Paid search expert (and copywriter club member) Amy Hebdon joins Kira and Rob for the 55th episode of the podcast to talk about search marketing, the tools and skills you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[76,75,3],"class_list":["post-969","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-amy-hebdon","tag-paid-search","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>TCC Podcast #55: Paid search for copywriters with Amy Hebdon - 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