{"id":993,"date":"2017-11-21T15:29:22","date_gmt":"2017-11-21T08:29:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?p=993"},"modified":"2018-01-04T10:40:36","modified_gmt":"2018-01-04T03:40:36","slug":"financial-copywriter-jake-hoffberg","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/financial-copywriter-jake-hoffberg\/","title":{"rendered":"TCC Podcast #58: Writing financial copy with Jake Hoffberg"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>For the 58th episode of\u00a0<em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em>, Kira Hug and Rob Marsh sit down to talk with financial copywriter, Jake Hoffberg about all kinds of things related to writing copy in the financial niche, including:<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0his first exposure to direct response and how he got into internet marketing<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he was rejected by every division of Agora but one before he landed his first project<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the terrible cold email pitch template he used (we share it, don\u2019t use it)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0his contrarian \u201cI want to make money\u201d path to copywriting<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the kinds of projects he willingly took on just to get started<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how he leveraged his new relationships into more jobs and more clients<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the real value that copywriters provide their clients (it\u2019s not writing copy)<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0the process for pitching new ideas and getting the next project, and<br \/>\n\u2022 \u00a0how to double your income in 6 months<\/p>\n<p>Plus we also asked for his thoughts about getting royalties, which clients will pay them, and how to structure royalties the right way and he shared the advice he give other writers about how to get into financial copywriting&#8230;\u00a0<em>hint: don\u2019t think you should start at the top.<\/em> All that and more is in this money-packed episode (not literally). To hear it all, click\u00a0the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.<\/p>\n<div class=\"powerpress_player\" id=\"powerpress_player_1493\"><!--[if lt IE 9]><script>document.createElement('audio');<\/script><![endif]-->\n<audio class=\"wp-audio-shortcode\" id=\"audio-993-1\" preload=\"none\" style=\"width: 100%;\" controls=\"controls\"><source type=\"audio\/mpeg\" src=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC058.mp3?_=1\" \/><a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC058.mp3\">https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC058.mp3<\/a><\/audio><\/div><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_links_mp3\" style=\"margin-bottom: 1px !important;\">Podcast: <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC058.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_pinw\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Play in new window\" onclick=\"return powerpress_pinw('https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/?powerpress_pinw=993-podcast');\" rel=\"nofollow\">Play in new window<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/media.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/content.blubrry.com\/thecopywriterclub\/TCC058.mp3\" class=\"powerpress_link_d\" title=\"Download\" rel=\"nofollow\" download=\"TCC058.mp3\">Download<\/a><p class=\"powerpress_links powerpress_subscribe_links\">Subscribe: <a href=\"https:\/\/subscribebyemail.com\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_email\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe by Email\" rel=\"nofollow\">Email<\/a> | <a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/feed\/podcast\/\" class=\"powerpress_link_subscribe powerpress_link_subscribe_rss\" target=\"_blank\" title=\"Subscribe via RSS\" rel=\"nofollow\">RSS<\/a><\/p>\n<h3>The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:<\/h3>\n<p><em>Sponsor:<\/em>\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.airstory.co\/club?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com &amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">AirStory<\/a>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/ebenpagantraining.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Eban Pagan<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/jeffwalker.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Jeff Walker<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/agorafinancial.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Agora Financial<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.fool.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Motley Fool<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/dentresearch.com\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Dent Research<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/dentresearch.com\/the-sale-of-a-lifetime\/?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\"><em>Sale of a Lifetime<\/em><\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/651680775009984\/\">Freelance Financial Copywriter Group<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/JakeHoffberg.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">JakeHoffberg.com<\/a><br \/>\n<a href=\"http:\/\/kirahug.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Kira\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/www.brandstoryonline.com?utm_source=thecopywriterclub.com&amp;utm_medium=shownotes\">Rob\u2019s website<\/a><a href=\"http:\/\/kaleighmoore.us11.list-manage.com\/subscribe?u=7bdb50a2eb0d5b0a501cd1bf4&amp;id=9bf46b3e1d\"><br \/>\n<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/groups\/thecopywriterclub\/\">The Copywriter Club Facebook Group<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\"><br \/>\n<\/a>Intro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/fauves\/content-for-now\">Content (for now)<\/a><br \/>\nOutro:\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/album\/gravity\/id304219081?i=304219099\">Gravity<\/a>\n<h3>Full Transcript:<\/h3>\n<p><em>The Copywriter Club Podcast<\/em> is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co\/club.<\/p>\n<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-998 size-medium\" src=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-300x300.png\" alt=\"Financial Copywriter Jake Hoffberg\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-300x300.png 300w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-768x768.png 768w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-1024x1024.png 1024w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-180x180.png 180w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-600x600.png 600w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-400x400.png 400w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black-50x50.png 50w, https:\/\/thecopywriterclub.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/11\/jake-hoffberg-black.png 1350w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>Rob:<\/strong> What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That\u2019s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> You\u2019re invited to join the Club for episode 58, as we chat with financial copywriter Jake Hoffberg about his path to becoming a copywriter and choosing the financial niche, writing long-form sales pages and VSLs, what a new writer should do today to break into financial copywriting, and advertising to the affluent.<\/p>\n<p>&#8212;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Welcome, Jake!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Thank you for having me!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s great to have you here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> We\u2019re excited to learn a little bit more about you and your niche and how it all came about, which is probably a good place to start. Let\u2019s talk about your story and how you became a copywriter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Sure. So, I guess the story probably actually starts in 2008&#8230; 2009&#8230; and I had a copy of Eban Pagan\u2019s <em>Get Altitude Training<\/em>\u2014I forget how I got it, but I did\u2014and that was really my first exposure to direct response. This whole world of people that were making money on the internet and running these virtual businesses and putting boards together and getting paid and I just\u2014I thought that was fascinating. I was in direct sales at the time and I was knocking on doors and doing it the hard way and man, it was just so awesome sounding. So I probably spent the next five, six, seven years on and off trying to get into internet marketing and figure out how to run an info-product business and kinda went down that rabbit hole for a long time and tried a lot of things that did not work over the years.<\/p>\n<p>This is all while I was doing sales, and switched sales jobs a couple times, and think it was two years ago\u2014something like that\u2014it was July of 2015\u2014I was running a consulting business and I had that moment that everyone has at some point in their life where they\u2019re just like, F it! I\u2019m done with this! I\u2019m tired of this crap! And I had a not so friendly conversation with my boss, who was my only client at the time and I was making good money and I basically fired myself after that conversation.\u00a0I had some cash saved away and I was like, all right! I\u2019ll figure something out and I don\u2019t want to go back and do sales; I don\u2019t want to get a 9-5 job or do any of that stuff so I just need to figure this stuff out.<\/p>\n<p>I knew firsthand how hard it was just to run a business and how hard it was to try and build websites and all this other stuff, and so somewhere along the way it just clicked where, okay&#8230; I can sell, and it\u2019s made me basically employable for every company ever because I can do that, so if I can just figure out just the sales part on the internet, and I can just learn that, I can just get paid to do that, and I don\u2019t have to mess around with all this website building or any of this nonsense. I can just start there. That was how I figured out that copywriting was a real thing. That there are people that make lots of money and all they do is write copy and they don\u2019t do anything else. I thought, that sounds really good! Let\u2019s try that!<\/p>\n<p>You know, I bought all the courses and read all the books and did all the things and after a couple of months of doing that&#8230; I was like all right. I just want to make money! So where is that? And it was financial. That\u2019s where everyone said it was\u2014in the financial niche. And so I was like, all right! I\u2019m just gonna do that. It was SUPER duper hard getting started\u2014I knew nothing about finance. I could work an excel spreadsheet kind of okay and that was about as good as my finance skills were.<\/p>\n<p>But I was determined to make this happen! There wasn\u2019t really another option for me at this point. So, I got a bunch of books on investing and started reading the financial news and was going through whatever swipe files of things and I kept seeing these sales letters from Agora and all these other big financial publishers and so at one point I was like, I wonder if they\u2019re hiring copywriters? They probably are. I kept hearing about how much money these people were making and so I basically just cold called Agora\u2014like all the franchises inside of Agora, there\u2019s probably about twenty of them, Motley Fool, all the big names, with no experience, no portfolio, I had never written copy. I think I had had like, one other fifty dollar job I got off of a job board, it was something like that, right?<\/p>\n<p>And I went from that to somehow managing to convince Agora to hire me, freelance, and remote, which is apparently not a thing that happens ever&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So wait so wait. You had not written any other copy and you got hired by Agora just from a cold pitch.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Wow, crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> So, that\u2019s what happened. Essentially what wound up happening was I asked if they needed speck work and basically everyone said no and one person was like, yeah! We could use some stuff so they said, can you write advertorials? And I was like, yeah! I totally can! No&#8230; never written one. So I said, can you send me an example? So they sent me one; I wrote I think four things and they liked some of them and they were like yeah, we see some potential, and I basically just bugged them and sent them new ideas and like, copyedited pages and found spelling errors and I just was like a dog with a bone. I just wouldn\u2019t let it go. And I think I just wore them down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> They\u2019re like, this guy Jake! Gosh! Just say yes!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> After two months of basically just like working for free and sending them all kinds of stuff, they were like alright, I\u2019ll pay you for real. And then I got a contract and that was literally how I started freelancing. I just didn\u2019t give up and I was super persistent and that was how I got hired.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> There\u2019s a lot here; I know we both want to unpack everything you just said. So, for specifics, when did you start pitching Agora? You said two years ago? Or is this already a year ago?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>So, it would\u2019ve been like, December 2015\u2014that was when I was like, alright, I\u2019m gonna do financial. And then I started to cold email and cold call\u2014just doing whatever I could do to talk to someone and then in January was when it kinda took about 30 days for them to go from, yeah we could use some stuff! Because you know how that is, right? They\u2019re super busy and it\u2019s not personal, they just don\u2019t get back to you because they have other stuff to do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Right, I mean, you\u2019re not even on their radar; I mean, you\u2019re barely there, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Right. So January or February was just comprised of me trying to hustle and stuff and then March was when I started to actually get checks in the mail from Agora.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Okay, so once you realized, \u201cI want to go into financial\u201d, and you find Agora and you know you want to work with Agora, what did it look like when you jumped into this pitching process? To even get the right list of names? What did you have to do behind the scenes to make this happen? There are so many questions! What did you say in that pitch email? I have like five other questions, so that\u2019s it for now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> it\u2019s gonna be really dumb and really simple, what I\u2019m going to say, which is why most people just won\u2019t do it&#8230; so, what I do because that\u2019s how I did well in sales. I typed in Agora or whatever, and if you work hard enough you kinda know who\u2019s got a publishing company- you just kinda search for them. And I looked up like, publisher, marketing director, anything that looks like that. I also reached out to people that were copywriters at those franchises as well, just to try and you know, work it that way. I think this was the email:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>Hi, (name)\u2014<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m a direct response copywriter. Do you hire freelancers?<\/p>\n<p>Jake<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>And that was the email.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Brilliant!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> It hardly even feels like a pitch!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Some people responded and I got the, \u201cWe don\u2019t really but if you\u2019re super good\u201d kind of thing. \u201cWe only hire in-house\u201d\u2014which is really code word for, we\u2019d like to hire in-house but we\u2019ll take it where we can get it&#8230; which I didn\u2019t realize until later. Some people would respond and say yes, kind of, but you need to be good, but just one person was like yeah, we do, and then I was like, great, can I do some stuff on set for you so you can try me out? And then they were like sure! Or, no! We\u2019re not interested in that.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s it! That\u2019s really all there was to it. Oh, and then lots of rejection in the middle.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> How much rejection?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>I\u2019m not exaggerating when I say I called every single franchise. All of them. And one said yes. And that was just in Agora. I tried calling the VIP hotline numbers from the order forms to see if I could get someone on the phone that way, I emailed them several times; yeah, it took some effort!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s actually really important, though, because a lot of times we talk about hey, you need to go out and cold pitch the clients that you want, so we\u2019ll send an email and when we don\u2019t hear back, maybe we send a second email, but there\u2019s no follow up, you know, or keep going; you move on to the next person, right? And here you\u2019re saying, look, I want to work for Agora, and you tried every single person and you\u2019re going after it for what sounds like a month, maybe even longer, just hammering them. I want to work for you, I want to work for you; whatever that is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> And there was a little bit of like, fake it till you make it, right? In here? When they\u2019re like have you done this? And you said, sure I\u2019ve done this. So basically you created copy to show them that you have some skills and then they allowed you to take on more and more until finally, you were in the door. That\u2019s what it sounds like, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Yeah, basically. This isn\u2019t really all that complicated, it just takes work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah, it\u2019s the key ingredient.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Yes. That one thing people don\u2019t want to hear. It takes work. But it\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So when you were talking about your career before you became a copywriter and the focus on door to door sales and selling, how much of that translates to what you do today as a copywriter? How much does that impact what you write? Are you using the same tricks, whatever that is in your copy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Sure. I think it\u2019s impossible for me to give any sort of real, quantitative \u201chow much did this really help me\u201d. The only thing I can really say is I don\u2019t care what you\u2019re doing: you need to learn how to sell. Did it help me have confidence that I can go win jobs? 100%. I just had so much experience being in front of people and asking them for money\u2014I\u2019m just cool with that part. I feel like I did the opposite of most people who want to write for a living did, where they\u2019re like \u201cI want to be a writer!\u201d and then they have to do the whole business thing. I\u2019m just like, \u201cI want to make money! Maybe you can do that with writing!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I started on the other side. I came in a as a salesman, for years, it\u2019s just what I did, so I was very, very comfortable with the deal-making side of this and understanding that you have to think about long-term client value and relationship. And there\u2019s a lot of stuff I did in my other career where you know, didn\u2019t really make a lot of money on the front end, but I made a lot of money on the back. I just understood how that worked. And yeah, it did also help that if you sold stuff to people face to face, you kinda understood how persuasion works, totally! But there\u2019s just no getting around learning how to structure it in writing, because there are a lot of things you can\u2019t do in writing that you can do face to face that are easier.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I would like to jump back into the contract you had with Agora and that first contract. What did that look like or include, for people who are curious about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>This is going to sound completely backwards, as well. How I pitched it, which again isn\u2019t what people were thinking\u2014and also keep in mind that I had money saved away and my wife was working, so I didn\u2019t need to make money right now so I could afford to take my time\u2014when I pitched them, I was pretty up front that I was a new writer but I understood a lot of stuff. Mostly what I really was looking for was less about making money on the front end and it was really more about having mentorship and training and so I was willing to trade on the front. It was kind of like, I don\u2019t really care what you pay me\u2014I mean, pay me, but what I care about is whether someone will be here to teach me how to write and how to do well for you. So that\u2019s kind of where it started. It was focused on knowing I wanted to be there for a while and I wanted to learn how to do that. Did that help? I have no idea; I think it did. And strangely enough, originally they offered me a $2,000\/month retainer to basically work like 20 hours a week and I actually ended up turning that down and I said, just pay me for the work that I do, instead.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> So what did that look like? Was that hourly or by project? How much?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> We came up with a price grid. I can\u2019t tell you how much I got paid but it wasn\u2019t a lot. It wasn\u2019t a lot but it was emails, advertorials; we\u2019re talking like one hundred would be generous. So I wasn\u2019t getting paid a lot, but you know, there were opportunities for royalties in some of these things, and there were some other bigger projects that I wound up getting to do, but I just started on some emails, which were horrible when I started. I got okay with those. And then did some other advertorials as well, did some space ads, and then my first exciting project was a renewal letter, which was a three email sequence, and then I did a two page print renewal letter after that. I was making a couple grand per month, maybe, I think my first month I made probably $300, and then kind of got bigger after that. By month three, I got to do a free book plus shipping offer and that was a several thousand dollar job that they paid me for, generously. I was just kind of like, what are you going to pay me for it? And they said, we\u2019ll pay you this much! And I was like that\u2019s way more than I thought, so sweet! I\u2019ll take it! And then it just went on from there. I got some royalty checks coming in after that. I started getting paid $0, initially, and then maybe a couple hundred, and then six months down the road, I was making $10,000 a month.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Wow, so how did you leverage that relationship then, with Agora, into more jobs and more clients?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Sure, so the nice part about the way that I did it is that I specifically did it this way because in sales, having power names is super important, then once you have that customer on your sheet, you can say well, who else does business with you? Oh, this guy does. Alright! That sounds good! So, as soon as I tell people they\u2019re like, yeah great, but who else do you work with? \u201cAgora.\u201d Oh okay!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> No big deal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>You can write with us now. We\u2019ll try you out. And that really, it just sounds so simple, but I really don\u2019t even have to sell people anything. They just sorta take it at face value that I know what I\u2019m doing, even if I don\u2019t! Which is, you know, whatever. Interestingly enough, though, I\u2019ve actually gone in the other direction. So, I did take some other clients, I work with Modern Economics. Highland\u2014that one I actually just went to their investment conference and just met them in person and just pitched them at the conference and they hired me. I think copywriters eventually come to this realization, that it\u2019s way easier just to get paid a lot more money from one or two clients and just get royalties attached to it so that you have a high upside than it is to go have like, four, five, six clients and constantly having to relearn new things from new projects. So, I thought I was gonna like go with this massive agency or whatever, and then I started picking up new clients and I was like, this is awful! These people are terrible! I hate these clients. I didn\u2019t realize how good I had it over here with Dent Research, so I kind of humbly came back and I was like, so! How about I just work for you? You\u2019re my one client and all&#8230; I\u2019ll do my other side gig. I\u2019d train copywriters and do that. Just do my one client, pay attention to, and just set this up.<\/p>\n<p>That was actually how that wound up happening after my first year and I realized that more clients is more problems.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> We have to back up a bit because you said you went from $0 and then you kind of skipped over some parts and then you said I got to $10k per month&#8230; I don\u2019t know how many months it took you to get there; I imagine not many. So, I\u2019m wondering, how did you jump so quickly? I mean, granted, yes. You\u2019re in financial copywriting, we know it pays well, but it seems like you were taking whatever they were giving you and then you made your way up. Is it just that they started to see your value, you were improving, and then Agora started paying you more? What did that look like in that in between stage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> A couple things happened. So, once I did that first free book push and offer, and that meant I was doing\u2014it was a ten page sales letter and order form\u2014I started to get a couple more of those, that type of format, I had some other clients that I wound up pitching some jobs to so that kind of supplemented some of that. Royalties started showing up, so that helped a lot.<\/p>\n<p>I think what freelancers miss is that your real value that you have to pitch your client some ideas and jobs at some point. We do it all the time, especially in finance. I think most writers have this fantasy that they\u2019re just going to get told what to do, that they\u2019re just going to be like an employee, that their job\u2019s going to be super easy, when really, it\u2019s like my job is to come up with new ideas. All the time. And most of them aren\u2019t good or don\u2019t work\u2014that\u2019s how that goes. I think at one point, on a weekly basis I was pitching them on new ideas, all the time. And a bunch of those ideas didn\u2019t work, some of them weren\u2019t either writers, which was fine, and really it was just that like, constant, constant pitching of I want to make you guys more money, here\u2019s some ideas. Let\u2019s do something. That\u2019s really what happened. Are there some specifics? Sure, like I got flown out to Baltimore and I was part of some meetings and there were some retainer things, I was part of some projects, but it really just came down to that. I just pitched them all the time. I still do!<\/p>\n<p>And I just pitched them all the time on, here\u2019s some ideas and give it a shot and they were like, alright sweet! let\u2019s do that! And then I got paid.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So the idea of pitching&#8230; is this informal or like, you have an idea so you just send off an email or is there a call set up? How do you pitch the ideas to your clients?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> It works a little bit differently now that I\u2019m more part of the copy team, but yeah in the beginning&#8230; I think most people don\u2019t appreciate just how much effort goes into like, staying at the top of your game. And really in any niche, but especially financial. So, I\u2019m always spending you know, 20 hours a week just reading stuff. And then, yeah! I\u2019d send them off an email and be like hey, this was in the news, here\u2019s an idea for a new advertorial. Do you want to do it? And they\u2019d be like yeah, write it! Or I\u2019d be like hey I got an idea for this\u2014do you need more space ads for this thing? Hey, here\u2014I\u2019ve got this new idea\u2014do you want to do it?<\/p>\n<p>Make it easy. It\u2019s a lot easier than saying, hey do you have work you need done? And the answer is, yeah, they do, but that\u2019s a different story. It\u2019s a whole different thing when you come to them and you say, here\u2019s new fresh ideas\u2014do you like them or do you not like them? And then the publisher or copy chief can just say yes. Do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Right. So again, let\u2019s back up just a little bit. You\u2019ve mentioned royalties a few times and I think for a lot of copywriters, royalties are sort of this you know, golden\u2014bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow or the golden chalice that we get for having a great career and eventually you get there, but obviously you started with royalties very early in your career. How is the typical royalty structured for you, and what you do? And just tell us about what that looks like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>So, again, I can\u2019t use specific numbers but I can give you some ideas as to how this works, at least the financial industry. Basically, we just gotta realize that if you\u2019re making your client money, you should be entitled to the upside. Maybe that\u2019s just me being a salesperson. But, that\u2019s how I feel about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2019m not gonna argue.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s a key mentality here, where it\u2019s like, you know, again\u2014I\u2019m not pitching people on writing blog posts, or content marketing, or any of these other kind of floppy things and not to downplay or diminish any one\u2019s kind of writing style they do, but you know, if you want to make real money as a copywriter, you need to understand that you can\u2019t get paid more than the value that you create for your clients. That math doesn\u2019t work for anyone. You make your clients more money, you can always structure that deal. I think people are short-sighted in that they opt for short term guaranteed pay over long-term speculative pay, which can be a bad move depending on who your client is. You know, you got a company like Agora, who\u2019s got a 30+ track record of paying out royalties and paying well for a copywriter, it\u2019s a pretty safe bet. So number one\u2014if you want royalties, it\u2019s substantially easier just go to right for a company who\u2019s already used to paying royalties. There\u2019s no haggling. Well, you\u2019ll haggle about the price\u2014how much you\u2019re gonna get, but it\u2019s super, super hard to pitch a small business owner on the idea of giving you royalties. They\u2019re just not going to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> More importantly, for you to make that worth it for either of you, the level of good you have to be is substantial. Right? Let\u2019s say you\u2019ve got a real solid media buyer\u2014they really understand how to scale and paying\u2014they have a gigantic email list, it\u2019s just not happening. They don\u2019t have the cash flow to make that work. I think where people get caught up is trying to squeeze blood from stone, they\u2019re hoping that somehow this small seven figure business owner is going to somehow decide that yeah, you know what? We\u2019re gonna give you a 10% royalty on this and you\u2019ll make a million dollars off this next thing. It\u2019s just not going to happen. So part of that is just getting in front of bigger clients, which we could talk the whole podcast about. The other thing is just asking for them. And I think this is really where sales ability, and more specifically, confidence. You have to ask! And if you\u2019re not asking for them, you\u2019re probably not going to get them. So the only thing I do not get paid royalty on is emails. If we\u2019re just sending rif letters\u2014by the way, if people don\u2019t know what rif letters are, we\u2019ll send out our daily editorial stuff, so all the editors will send out their commentary on financial market and whatever, and then we\u2019ll have specific marketing driven emails. It\u2019ll be 200-300 words, where we just want them to click and then go over to the via sales letter, so that is the only thing I do not make a royalty off of. But it\u2019s a renewal, which is basically, we want someone who is subscribed to one of our products to re-up their subscription, if it\u2019s front-end acquisition, for driving cold traffic, if they\u2019re buying something I get paid off that, if it\u2019s a backend product, so one of our more expensive stuff, and I write a commercial for that, I get paid off that; I\u2019ll get paid off the advertorial, for how well that converts. I see these people are like, yeah, we charge like a thousand dollars for an advertorial, I think that\u2019s crazy! Like, good for you for getting paid that, but I get paid way less than that up front but I have royalties attached to all those advertorials because one really, really good page could get you a lot more than that in royalties.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I know you can\u2019t share exact numbers, but in general, what is a good structure for a royalty? What should we be looking for, especially if we\u2019re approaching a royalty agreement for the first time, what is a good structure to start with?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Sure, so here\u2019s a framework that\u2019s helpful, that\u2019ll make you sound like you know what you\u2019re doing&#8230;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s what we want.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> So, typically how we want to think about our royalty deals is front-end versus back-end. So front-end is going to be acquiring a new customer, which is where, typically, the best royalties are going to come from, because if you can bring in new customers to a business, you have a lot of value to your customer. And then the back-end is going to be, so what happens when they buy that first thing? We want them to buy a second, third, and fourth thing and you want to get paid on that. So with a big direct-response marketing company, like Agora, who really understands how to monetize those things, they are able to pay you more for all this stuff because they know what they\u2019re doing. So what\u2019ll typically happen is, for me, I get paid a fixed dollar per new lead that comes into the file. So when you hear about these campaigns\u2014let\u2019s say I write a package and you know, we run it and we bring in 10,000 new subscribers\u2014paid subscribers\u2014into the file. So it doesn\u2019t matter if that product is $49, $79, $129\u2014whatever\u2014we\u2019re going to price that product so that it\u2019s easier to get a new subscriber. And, we\u2019re typically going to do it at a loss, by the way. We\u2019re typically going to bring in new customers at 80%, so for every $100 that we spend on traffic, we\u2019ll get $80 in front-end revenue. And I don\u2019t want to get too into leads on here, but you need to understand that we lose money on the front to acquire the subscriber, and then make it up on the back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Right, that\u2019s because the funnels are all engineered to sell a second and third product and that\u2019s really where the money\u2019s made.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Yeah, exactly. So what\u2019ll happen is I\u2019ll get paid $1 per name that comes in, so let\u2019s just do the math. Let\u2019s say it\u2019s bringing in 10,000 names, so if I\u2019m getting paid a dollar per name, that\u2019s $10,000. If you\u2019re getting paid $2, that\u2019s $20,000. Do the math. It gets pretty big, depending on what your thing is. And then with the advertorial\u2014let\u2019s say someone else writes the thing and I\u2019m running the advertorial\u2014I\u2019ll get paid not nearly as much but I will get paid in some amount per name that comes through that advertorial. So, that\u2019s how I would structure that there, just a flat fee for every new name that comes in from the top. And then it\u2019ll be a percentage on the back. 3-5% is pretty normal for the backend, because again, we\u2019re spending a lot of money on the acquisition, but you know when you have a multi-thousand dollar product, 3-5% adds up pretty quickly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>And you aren\u2019t taking anything on the front end, just as the base, just like hey, $5,000 just to start for your time, and then royalty, or is it $0 up front and then just purely royalty?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Yeah, so at this point, my deal is different. I just have a retainer, so it just made that easier, but for a while yeah&#8230; well, I actually did it strangely. So, I didn\u2019t ever mess around with this half up front half afterward\u2014it just seemed like too much counting, so what I did was I just sent them an invoice at the end of the month and they just paid me in full for whatever I did. And that worked out well for me. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019d recommend that, it\u2019s probably not the best strategy, but I figured this is a legit company and they won\u2019t fail to pay me, but yeah. I have a writing fee, so at the end of the month it\u2019s here\u2019s the work I did, here\u2019s the fee, and they just pay it for me, and then at that point it was 2x per year that I would get royalties for everything and now I\u2019m quarterly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Okay, so let\u2019s change directions just a little bit and talk about some of the work that you\u2019ve done that you\u2019re most proud of and why it was so successful and what you did to make it so successful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Alright, so I\u2019ll say something that\u2019s going to be slightly surprising. Well, maybe not, but I found it\u2019s best. I had never written a via sales letter, some 45 minute thing, I\u2019ve never done a fifty page package, I\u2019ve never done really long format stuff. I\u2019ve done a webinar funnel for like an internet marketing person before but I don\u2019t think that really counts because it\u2019s not real sales edit, but I just want to put this on the table that I made $145,000 in my first year as a copywriter not writing any long-form copy. So, the longest thing that I wrote were offers, and that was a 10-pager. And really, the reason why I did well was because of royalties and I wrote stuff that worked. And I think the thing that I was the most proud of and the thing that worked the best, was, so I write for Dent Research, so Harry Dent is our guy\u2014a relatively well known person in the financial space. He\u2019s been around. His first book was like in 1989; he was very popular for several decades. So, he had a new book that came out last year called <em>Sale of a Lifetime<\/em> and I wrote the book promo for that and probably wrote it in two weeks, front to back, and we still run it today. And that one promotion that I\u2019ve done, that was ten pages long, has been the most successful. I\u2019d say we brought in somewhere in the multiple tens of thousands of millions to the list with that one promotion and this one is still repurposed and we use it for some other stuff. So, that\u2019s been cool. I\u2019ve enjoyed that. That\u2019s pretty cool, I think. The other coolest part is getting to be part of a copy team now, it\u2019s really cool, and getting to go up to Baltimore\u2014we go every two months now, something like that, for creative meetings, and to go to the franchise meetings, hang out with the team unit and editors, and, I don\u2019t know. It just&#8230; it feels cool. It feels fun to&#8230;to feel like I\u2019m part of like a really, like, legit marketing team, with super-sharp people and all that. So that\u2019s fun, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> I\u2019d love to hear, you mentioned that you had no background in finance; I believe that\u2019s what you said. And, for someone who might be listening who, you know, like me who does not have a background in finance, but is curious and has wondered, \u201cwell maybe I can do this too\u201d, and likes a challenge&#8230;what would you say to someone who wants to jump into it or just test it and see if it\u2019s a good fit?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Sure. So, we\u2019ll have like a \u201chashtag\u201d no plug here: I do run a mastermind program and this is the strategy that I teach: I just tell people to do it the way I did it, through short-form copy. And again, I think that it\u2019s unfortunate how much weight people put on packages in the copywriting world. And yeah, right, do long-form promos and BSLs and all those things\u2014are\u2014do those bring in a lot of money? They totally do, but, I just think it\u2019s so unrealistic for a new writer to go from \u201cI\u2019m not all that experienced\u201d, to writing like a forty-five page package. It just seems like you\u2019re setting yourself up for failure. I just don\u2019t get franchises that, like really, that\u2019s what they want: they want people to write packages when there\u2019s just so much other work in the funnel that needs to get done, that would be substantially lower-risk for the client to try out on, then to give you ten, twenty thousand dollars to write some package at tops and then spend, you know, a hundred thousand dollars to bring traffic to it.<\/p>\n<p>So, it\u2019s just so much easier just like, to write emails, or write editorials\u2014right?\u2014some space ads. Just get familiar with kind of the tone and style of the franchise, and get some repetitions at just trying out new ideas, and hooks, and angles. Just really kinda getting your feet wet with the reality, which is, most of this job is research and knowing, like, what\u2019s happening right now.<\/p>\n<p>The writing part is actually kinda easy\u2014which I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s like a sacred cow or anything like that\u2014but the hard part is nailing your idea. It\u2019s having a really compelling and exciting idea. And, it\u2019s really, it\u2019s getting your headline and lead. I\u2019d say probably 80% of it is probably like your first five sentences of the sales letter. Nailing your headline, with having this exciting idea, and getting just that opening lead portion down. And, you know, if you can\u2019t do that, it doesn\u2019t really matter, but if you <em>can<\/em>, the rest of&#8212;like, it doesn\u2019t matter what you\u2019re writing, it kind of writes itself. And, really the way that you get, you know, repetitious doing that is ad-copy. Like that\u2019s where you get good at writing: alright, I got three hundred characters to write something exciting, what do I do? Or, you know I need to do this in two hundred words. How do I move this along really fast? And get the pacing and tone right, and that\u2019s how I think. It\u2019s the easiest way to start in really any niche is, you just do that. So hopefully that answers your question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>Yeah, you know, it does, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>So Jake, on your website, which we\u2019ll link to in the show notes, you make a promise that, you know, readers are only six months away from doubling their income. If I want to double my income, what are the steps I need to be taking in order to do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>I feel, like, embarrassed. It\u2019s like \u201cThe Cobbler\u201d: children have no shoes. Like, I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve touched that in, I don\u2019t know, since I started. I actually built that website as a way to, like, quote position myself, way way back when. And, now I like barely have time to, you know, email people, but anyway\u2014but it\u2019s true. Doubling your income. Whenever you\u2019re in a sales-oriented position where you know you can get paid for the value you create for someone, it\u2019s really really easy to make more money. And, I think what\u2019s challenging for most people is that, unless you came from straight-commission sales, and you know, you\u2019ve had that experience where really like what\u2019s holding you back from you know, making, you know, or going from one thousand months to ten thousand dollar months really comes down to your attitude, your confidence level, your belief in yourself. And yet yeah, like some work habits. And there is some technical stuff that\u2019s in there, but how do you double your income? Number one is go after bigger clients with more money, that\u2019s step one. So, if you\u2019re not making six figures right now? I mean, I do it with one client. Consistently. It\u2019s just not that hard which, you know, I don\u2019t want to belittle anyone having trouble doing that, making six figures just isn\u2019t that complicated. A huge portion of it is just people\u2019s belief about how much they\u2019re worth, how much they can make, and they don\u2019t want to like, negotiate with people for better deals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Okay, so two parts to this. What is the mindset they need? Yes, they need confidence, but what does that mindset shift, that you experienced\u2014again, on your website you said you\u2019ve had 80,000 sales calls\u2014you\u2019ve done the work and somewhere in there you had a mindset shift. What does that look like for copywriters? And then I have a second part to that question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>So, one of the big challenges for me going from sales to selling professional services is that when I was in sales, I was selling the product, right? So it could be a good product, it could be whatever\u2014but if I had a lot of confidence that product was good, that it was gonna help the customer, and that they should buy it, it really wasn\u2019t too hard to pitch that yeah, you should buy this; it\u2019s good. You\u2019ll like it.<\/p>\n<p>Once I saw that product I kinda had to pitch it now so that if something goes wrong, it\u2019s the product\u2019s fault. So what was really challenging was going into professional services where now you\u2019re selling someone really on you, your ability to deliver some kind of work. And this is where you know, impostor syndrome and fraud\u2014yes, I\u2019ve dealt with all those things&#8230; and what this comes down to is when you take the focus off of yourself, which is why most people have kinda like in italiacs, what can my client do for me, how can I get paid more, it\u2019s kind of very self centered, like how do I jack more money out of these people?<\/p>\n<p>And you really just shift your thinking to, \u201cHow can I create more value? How can I deliver more results? How can i make this easy for this person to compensate me for what I do?\u201d And some of those things are kind of like the intangibles\u2014where it\u2019s like you know, hitting deadlines, being easy and pleasant to work with, do you come up with good ideas? Do you write at least decent copy? That\u2019d be awesome. Just, is it good? Is it good enough? And also just really understanding that there\u2019s gonna be some types of clients in some niches that are really gonna be a good fit for you. Long-term. And I think it really takes about 90 days to where if you just make a commitment where, I\u2019m just gonna learn everything about this, and I\u2019m gonna read all the competition stuff, I\u2019m gonna read all this client stuff, and really just understand what\u2019s going on in this person\u2019s business, it\u2019s not difficult to see ways that you can add a lot of value to the client.<\/p>\n<p>Again, that takes a lot of work, most people don\u2019t like to hear that, but it\u2019s not difficult to, if you want to get paid $10,000 a month, you gotta just do some math. How much money would you need to make that client? Well, probably about five or ten times what you charge. Well, you know, they\u2019ve got a big list that they\u2019re not mailing every day and if you come in and you\u2019re like great, I\u2019ll just mail your list for you every single day, it\u2019s just not that hard to make that guy an extra $50,000-$100,000 a month, just taking over the emails.<\/p>\n<p>But if you don\u2019t dig into it, and you don\u2019t understand how this business owner is running their business and like, where the problem is and how can you come in and like, open stuff up or take stuff off that person\u2019s plate so they can move on to other higher dollar per hour activities, if you don\u2019t understand how the business is run, it\u2019s very challenging for you sell yourself on, yeah. I can create a hundred thousand dollar a month value for you because I\u2019m gonna do this this and this, and I\u2019m gonna get you these results because of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira: <\/strong>I love that and I think the second part to that question is on your website you also mentioned the secret to getting more millionaire clients and most of copywriters we\u2019ve worked with in our Accelerator program and in our Facebook group often ask, okay, well where do I find these clients? I know my copywriting is improving, I\u2019m getting more confidence, I can pitch myself, but where are these clients who can pay more and can move me to this next level? You did it\u2014you found Agora and you did it early on, which isn\u2019t as typical for most copywriters. So what can the copywriter listening do right now to find these clients who maybe have millions and can be that next tier for them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> Sure. So this is also really, really counterintuitive, which is why most people don\u2019t do it\u2014it\u2019s actually easier to get top-end clients. In any sales job I\u2019ve ever done, it\u2019s substantially easier to go sell stuff to people with more money. And there\u2019s two reasons. One is typically bigger businesses and more successful people\u2014they just have more experience hiring consultants and outside people. They\u2019re used to this transaction. They\u2019re more willing to do it. They\u2019re also a lot busier, so the money value of the time is very very high, and so it intuitively makes sense for those business owners to hire other people and find good talent. So they\u2019re already at that level, whereas a lot of times small business owners, solo entrepreneurs, they\u2019re like most business owners who are complete control freaks, they\u2019re not willing to let go of things, they\u2019re not there.<\/p>\n<p>But where people get hung up is that they don\u2019t know this, number one, they just never considered that it\u2019d be easier, but then they also just have confidence of like oh, I\u2019m not good enough. They have all this bad self talk about that so really, part of this is going back to what we just talked about: you really focus on becoming an expert inside whatever industry that you want to work in. You know who all the players are, you know what\u2019s going on, pretty quickly you realize that you\u2019re probably the smartest person in the room, which doesn\u2019t take that long and I think that builds a lot of confidence in people, where when I was entering a new market and I didn\u2019t know what I was doing, I just read a lot of stuff and I started talking to other people, and I was like wow! You\u2019re not actually smarter than I am. You don\u2019t know more about this. There\u2019s no actual reason why you\u2019re making more money than me, so why am I not? And it\u2019s just that the answer is because I didn\u2019t try and didn\u2019t ask.<\/p>\n<p>So, from a tactical perspective, like how do you go find these people? Well, make a list of who is mailing stuff, who the biggest people are in your niche, who is running ads. If you have Facebook, who is running ads? Look at those people because they\u2019re running ads, they\u2019re spending money on traffic, they\u2019re surfing the web and you see those ads to health supplements or financial promos or whatever; those are people that are spending money growing their business. Look for those people. And aim high, right from the beginning. It wasn\u2019t harder for me to get Agora as a client, it was just different. The steps were not that complicated.<\/p>\n<p>Yeah, it took a little bit of persistence, but I just don\u2019t think most people realize that like, everyone in our industry is desperate for copywriters. All of us. We\u2019re all looking for copywriters. All the time. And that\u2019s true for any big publisher, right? And Again I think a lot of this comes back to the fact that a lot of people don\u2019t understand what\u2019s going on inside of an eight figure, nine figure business. And like, the reality is that all of those businesses have this beast that just constantly needs to be fed more copy and they\u2019re desperate for new writers that can help do that. And they\u2019re willing to take a chance on younger writers who maybe don\u2019t have the best skill but are willing to stick it out and stay there long term because no one makes money turning over copywriters, or you know, revenue producing people. They need people to stay long-term. So when you realize that hey, you want to right for Eban Pagan, or Jeff Walker, or any of these people, really it just comes down to starting the conversation with these people, like communicating that I want to write for you and I\u2019m willing to do whatever it takes to do that and it\u2019ll probably take you one or two months to make that happen if you don\u2019t have a serious track record, but they need you. More than you need them, as weird as that sounds. But it\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> And that\u2019s a total mind shift. Copywriters think the other way around\u2014there\u2019s way too many of us and not enough of them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Yeah. Jake, before we wrap, I want to ask one final question and you know, I love this conversation because you\u2019ve approached everything from a totally different way than the majority of copywriters and it\u2019s been effective; it\u2019s worked. So I wonder what you think you know, kind of like the copywriter\u2019s dream life, you know, what that looks like for you? Have you already reached it, where like you\u2019re in with Agora and you have your side mastermind and other programs? I want you to help us all think bigger because you already think big and a lot of people don\u2019t, so how can we all think bigger about what we are all capable of as copywriters?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Alright. So this is always a fun conversation for me to have and I\u2019ll just preface this: the choices that I\u2019ve made are very, very different than the choices that other people want to make and I totally respect that. For me, I think the most important thing that people need to let go of is the internet marketing lie that all of us have been sold for years. That we\u2019re gonna wake up and piles of money are gonna hit your bank account in this all made in money machine that we\u2019ve created and like, you know, six figure royalty checks, like all of this\u2014everything that basically comes down to easy, innocent riches, and you\u2019ll have no more responsibilities ever again. Like, that just isn\u2019t real, I\u2019m sorry. It\u2019s just not and the sooner that you accept that, that that\u2019s just not real, the faster you\u2019ll make a lot of progress in your life. So, with that being said, for me, I have made plenty of money in my life, had all kinds of fun stuff, I\u2019m definitely like a high-achieving, oriented person, and like, the idea of sitting on a beach doing nothing drives me crazy.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t think i could do that for longer than a week. I just need something to do. And not everyone\u2019s like that. And so for me, what I decided and why I went into copywriting is that I wanted to put myself in a position where I could do work that was fun and enjoyable for me. So like, I wanted to do something that I would do even if I didn\u2019t get paid, and I happen to love marketing and direct response and I\u2019m a very analytical person, like I like puzzles and so it\u2019s really enjoyable to have a work where I can spend a lot of time by myself and reading, being very introspective and then I can write and go over it and build stuff; that type of stuff is fun and fulfilling for me. So, by the way, if you\u2019re a copywriter and you don\u2019t like to write or do your research, you really need to reconsider your choices here. Just by the way. I really wanted to put myself on a career path of mastery where I can continue to get into flow states and get better and challenge myself and compete and kind of continue to move forward, and yeah.<\/p>\n<p>I do want to get compensated really well and it\u2019s super sweet that I can take my work anywhere I want to and do fun things, but like a high percentage of my day ever day goes into thinking about how I can get better at writing copy and coming up with new ideas and that in itself is enjoyable for me. Right? I think that\u2019s like the key thing that you really gotta understand is that, if you\u2019re focused on the money\u2014like the end of the rainbow pitcher where you\u2019re going to be this part-time A-lister who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars, you\u2019re never going to put in the work it takes to get to that level of good where you can do that and I think that it\u2019s destructive.<\/p>\n<p>But if you focus on how can I build a career that I find inherently enjoyable for me and copywriting fits the bill and you find the right clients and partners where it\u2019s fun to go to work, I think that\u2019s what creates an enjoyable life. It might be that\u2019s a small client, and you might love making whatever that she makes, or it\u2019s super enjoyable writing for non-profits, and that\u2019s really what is fulfilling for you, I don\u2019t want to take that away from anyone. For me, I love financial because this is where all the best writers come to play so I\u2019m competing against Mark Ford and Clayton Makepeace, and like, every name that you\u2019ve ever heard of, they\u2019re all writing in financial. David Deutch. These are all where they are. I think that\u2019s fun. I think it\u2019s exciting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob: <\/strong>That\u2019s probably a good place to stop, we\u2019re out of time. Jake, if people want to connect with you, learn more about you, where would they find you online?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake:<\/strong> So I like to joke that I\u2019m on the internet, so Facebook is probably the easiest thing. I run a little Facebook group called the Freelance Financial Copywriter, if any of you guys are interested in being super nerdy and looking at marketing campaigns. Otherwise, website\u2019s jakehoffberg.com or email me at jake@jakehoffberg.com. Yeah. I think I\u2019ve got a LinkedIn profile still, probably.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kira:<\/strong> Great. Thank you Jake, this has been really, really enjoyable.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Rob:<\/strong> Thanks!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jake: <\/strong>Thanks for having me!<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For the 58th episode of\u00a0The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and Rob Marsh sit down to talk with financial copywriter, Jake Hoffberg about all kinds of things related to writing [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_coblocks_attr":"","_coblocks_dimensions":"","_coblocks_responsive_height":"","_coblocks_accordion_ie_support":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[2],"tags":[81,80,3],"class_list":["post-993","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast","tag-financial","tag-jake-hoffberg","tag-podcast"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v26.7 - 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